Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:37, 20 November 2018

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4Auto-archiving period: 30 days

A news item involving Pittsburgh synagogue shooting was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 27 October 2018.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Crime and Criminal Biography High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Death This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Firearms This article is within the scope of WikiProject Firearms, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of firearms on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FirearmsWikipedia:WikiProject FirearmsTemplate:WikiProject FirearmsFirearms ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Jewish history Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Judaism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Pittsburgh This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pittsburgh, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pittsburgh and its metropolitan area on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PittsburghWikipedia:WikiProject PittsburghTemplate:WikiProject PittsburghPittsburgh ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Crime and Criminal Biography This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

It is requested that an image or photograph of Pittsburgh synagogue shooting be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible. The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

rumormongering

bus stop removed information in this edit https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Pittsburgh_synagogue_shooting&diff=867718480&oldid=867715204

It is not rumormongering as BS said, to acknowledge that both Robertson of NYT and Rosenblatt of NBC both reported a bris took place (Quinn and Shallwani of Daily Beast referred to a "naming ceremony") and The Forward went on to deny is, so I'll be adding that back in part.

I believe that the reaction of the rabbi which was reported on by Forward, Pink News, Gay Star News and Advocate is also notable, but this is something we can discuss separately and I will not approach it within the same edit. Ash Carol (talk) 04:56, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

It is of little consequence that some sources reported a naming ceremony. I have removed that information because it is not particularly relevant. Bus stop (talk) 08:13, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, whether a Bris happened or not is irrelevant to the shooting. WWGB (talk) 10:52, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

It's relevant to media reactions to the shooting, which is why I've restored it to that section. Widespread misreporting and other media pointing that is out is notable. Ash Carol (talk) 05:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

There is always misreporting after horrific events. Back when I was looking for RS for the bris, I found little. The NYT just said a "presumed" bris. I don't know if there was a bris or not. I see no reason to include anything about it in an encyclopedia. O3000 (talk) 19:44, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Misreporting is relevant to articles about the misreporters or their employers. They were involved in creating it and its controversy affects them. It has no bearing on the misreported topic itself. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:48, November 11, 2018 (UTC)

BRIS: inclusion v exclusion

I think we should compile a comparison of sources which asserted a bris happened versus those which deny it happened and decide whether or not we should agree with the former or latter. Either way, it's clear there has been widespread coverage of that issue and efforts to exclude addressing it are groundless.

Support:

1. "Security quickly increased at area synagogues". Cleveland Jewish News. October 27, 2018. Authorities said the gunman opened fire during a baby naming and bris.
2. Smith, Jennifer; Zilber, Ariel (October 27, 2018). "Eleven dead in shooting at Pittsburgh synagogue". Daily Mail. it was busier than usual, with worshipers observing the Sabbath. Some were also there to attend a ceremony either for a bris, an infant's circumcision, or a baby naming ceremony .. The synagogue was particularly busy because of the special ceremony planned. There are mixed reports that it was a bris, the Jewish ceremony which involves an infant's circumcision, but there were children in the synagogue at the time.
3. Burke, Dave (October 27, 2018). "Pittsburgh synagogue shooting: Recap after gunman kills 11 at Tree of Life prayer service". Daily Mirror. 17:18 Rabbi at prayer service was standing in - A rabbi who was giving a prayer service was filling in when the atrocity happened. Buzzfeed reporter Julia Reinstein posted on Twitter: "Just spoke to Zachary Weiss, 26, whose dad Stephen Weiss was filling in for the rabbi today at Tree of Life. Stephen escaped the shooting and is now home safe. Zachary said there was a bris there today. "He was davening…and all of a sudden there was a loud boom," Zachary said."
4. "Trump laments lack of armed guards in synagogue, strongly condemns anti-Semitism". Jewish Telegraphic Agency. October 27, 2018. Tommy Vietor, a political commentator and podcaster who worked in the Obama administration, also lashed out at Trump. "The President thinks that the solution to preventing gun violence is to have armed guards at a bris. A fucking bris."
5. Simon, Scott (October 27, 2018). "Details Unfold About The Pittsburgh Shooting". National Public Radio. The service that was taking place at the synagogue this morning was a bris, a baby-naming ceremony.
6. Connelly, Eileen AJ; Italiano, Laura (October 27, 2018). "11 killed, six injured in 'horrific' shooting at Pittsburgh synagogue". New York Post. When gunfire erupted, a bris, a circumcision ceremony had been in progress.
7. Robertson, Campbell; Mele, Christopher; Tsvrernise, Sabrina (October 27, 2018). "11 Killed in Synagogue Massacre; Suspect Charged With 29 Counts". The New York Times. a bris, a ceremony to mark a child's birth, was among the ceremonies taking place Saturday
8. Rosenblatt, Kalhan; Winter, Tom; Dienst, Jonathan; Williams, Pete; McCausland, Phil (October 27, 2018). "11 dead in shooting at Pittsburgh synagogue, suspect in custody". NBC News. Retrieved October 27, 2018. Congregants told MSNBC that a circumcision celebration, known as a bris, was taking place in the synagogue this morning.
9. Quinn, Allison; Shallwani, Pervaiz (October 27, 2018). "'Multiple Casualties' After Gunman Opens Fire at Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh". The Daily Beast. Retrieved October 27, 2018. The attack took place around 10 a.m. as a naming ceremony for a newborn baby was underway
10. Martinez, Gina (October 27, 2018). "Pittsburgh Synagogue Hires Armed Guards to Open for Sunday School After Shooting". Time.com. Drew Barkley, Temple Sinai's executive director at Temple Sinai .. Barkley says he believes a Bris service was being held at the time of the shooting — a ceremony held on the the eighth day of a baby's life that includes a ceremonial circumcision or baby naming and blessing, depending on the gender of the baby. "One way or another there was a young family there with probably an 8-day-o ld or young infant there for what was supposed to be a very happy event," he says.
11. "Update: 11 Killed in Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting". Variety.com. October 27, 2018. The shooting unfolded at the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh's Squirrel Hill neighborhood while Shabbat services were under way as well as a bris ceremony, according to reports by CBS O&O KDKA-TV Pittsburgh.
12. "Pittsburgh shooting was anything but 'unimaginable'". Baltimore Sun. October 28, 2018. The list of victims from the Tree of Life Congregation reads like the invitation list to a bris, which was exactly what was going on when a deranged gunman armed with an AR-15-style assault rifle and several handguns stormed into the synagogue
13. Herreria, Carla; Frej, Willa (October 28, 2018). "Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooting Victims Include 2 Brothers, Husband And Wife". Huffington Post. A Torah study and Shabbat services were scheduled at the synagogue on Saturday. During the shooting, a bris ― a Jewish circumcision ceremony for an infant boy ― was reportedly taking place at the synagogue.
14. Allen, Nick; Crilly, Rob (October 28, 2018). "Pittsburgh synagogue shooting: Gunman kills 11 people in 'deadliest anti-Semitic attack in US'". The Daily Telegraph. It was not known if the baby being circumcised, during a ceremony known as a bris, was harmed.
15. Granick, Jaclyn; Tevis, Britt (October 28, 2018). "Why the Pittsburgh shooter raged about immigration before attacking a synagogue". Washington Post. The attack occurred during Shabbat services and during a bris, a celebration of a newborn life.
16. Schindler, Judy (October 29, 2018). "A Jewish prayer after Pittsburgh: 'Our greatest fears realized'". Charlotte Observer. a shooter armed with an AR-15 entered the synagogue of the Tree of Life congregation as three services were simultaneously in progress, including a bris welcoming an 8-day-old child into the covenant; a bris so important it could happen even on Shabbat.
17. Tatchell, Peter (October 29, 2018). "Pittsburgh synagogue shooting took place at a bris for a gay couple's twins" (Tweet) – via Twitter.
18. Levy, Susan (October 29, 2018). "Moving Toronto vigil for Pittsburgh shooting victims". Toronto Sun. We heard that the shooting occurred during a double bris for twin boys.
19. Sales, Ben (October 30, 2018). "How the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting unfolded — minute-by-minute". Times of Israel. Saturday, 9:45 a.m. Services begin at Tree of Life Congregation, a synagogue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood that houses three congregations: Tree of Life*Or L'Simcha, a merger of two Conservative synagogues; New Light, a small Conservative congregation that draws about 20 worshippers weekly; and Dor Hadash, a Reconstructionist congregation. At the entrance, Cecil and David Rosenthal, brothers who are active members of Tree of Life, are handing out prayer books. There is a table with challah, wine and whiskey for a bris, or circumcision ceremony, being held that morning.
20. Carlson, Adam. "Worshipers in Hiding, Waiting for Death: How the Pittsburgh Synagogue Massacre Unfolded". People.com. The congregation had gathered for a bris, a ceremony to name a baby boy.
21. Teproff, Carli (October 31, 2018). "Holocaust survivor haunted by Pittsburgh temple shooting attends vigil in Miami Beach". Miami Herald. The attack at the Tree of Life Congregation during a bris — ceremony to mark the birth of a boy — Saturday morning is considered the largest anti-Semitic attack in U.S. history.
22. Beauchamp, Zack (November 2, 2018). "My Jewish wedding was the day of the Pittsburgh shooting. Anti-Semites threatened it". Vox.com. The Pittsburgh shooting reminded us that there is no neat separation between Jewish joy and Jewish suffering. The shooter attacked the Tree of Life synagogue during a bris, the ritual circumcision and party marking the entry of a new Jewish boy into the world. It is the very fact of us living Jewishly that these people hate; conversely, every part of Jewish life that we live publicly is a declaration of victory over their project.

Dispute:

1. Feldman, Ari (3 November 2018). "Pittsburgh's Day Of Rest Still A Day Of Grief — On First Shabbat After Shooting". The Forward. The media hasn't helped the exhaustion, the congregants say. Victims ascribed to the wrong congregation. Misspelled names. Misreported facts. (Rose Mallinger was not a Holocaust survivor; there was no baby naming or bris last Shabbat morning, the congregants say, as was widely reported.)

I don't think a single dispute by The Forward on November 3rd is grounds to disqualify the 20+ claims supported by other reports:

• Oct 27 by CJN/DMail/DMirror/JTA/NPR/NYP/NYT/NBC/TDB/Time/Variety
• Oct 28 by Baltimore Sun/Huffington/Telegraph/Washington Post
• Oct 29 by Charlotte Observer/Tatchell/Toronto Sun
• Oct 30 by People/Times of Israel
• Oct 31 by Miami Herald
• Nov 2 by Vox.

Have any other reliable sources come out against the claim? Have any of the above sources published retractions? If so, I think that only affects how we should discuss the (mis?)reports regarding the bris, not whether or not to discuss them at all, because anyone resisting consensus acknowledging this is notable... well, perhaps let them explain their thought process here? Or can they not, and simply will keep reverting it?

It might be that Feldman of Forward is disagreeing with the Bris actually having been underway that morning. He doesn't agree with the idea of a bris being SCHEDULED, or prepared for, so I think we should still report at least that much. Ben Sales' "table with challah, wine and whiskey for a bris" seems too specific to deny that. Ash Carol (talk) 20:50, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Seems clear Feldman is the one with the exceptional view here. Should be ignored. If the tide later turns the other way, early reports should be ignored. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:41, November 11, 2018 (UTC)

If you support presently ignoring Feldman then do you support restoring mention of the bris? If so, how would you phrase it? If the "tide turns" later, I don't know if we should necessarily ignore the early reports, just put them in proper context (disproven or discredited) if that happens. The weight of them should be recognized, particularly since they've influenced people's commentary on the shooting. Ash Carol (talk) 22:32, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Should be mentioned as it was before Feldman made anyone doubt the veracity. Something like this. If this claim is agreed as bullshit by multiple reliable sources, it should be excised entirely, as things that didn't happen around a subject are irrelevant to it and potentially confusing to people who read to learn what did happen. Nothing like this. Spreading lies, even by calling them lies, generally makes people think about the lies. I prefer a "whole truth and nothing but the truth" approach. Much less poisonous. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:14, November 12, 2018 (UTC)

It matters not why people came to the synagogue. What matters is that there were 75 people there, most of them elderly, and vulnerable to the shooter. The reader does not care whether they were there for prayer, reflection, habit, companionship or a special occasion. All of this argy bargy on who-said-what about a bris is peripheral to the focus of the article, which is the unprovoked attack on innocent people. Nobody but the pedantic and the orthodox could care less whether a bris was scheduled or not. WWGB (talk) 01:16, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Of course it matters. They wouldn't have died there if not for a reason to be there. They'd have died later elsewhere and we wouldn't be here. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:24, November 12, 2018 (UTC)

• Putting aside our own opinion of what matters, I believe that when reliable sources consistently deign to include information (like Shabbat was in progress, and there was a bris) that they are forming a consensus in informing us that it matters to the reporters and to the public they serve, the events that were going on. If Wikipedians thought something did matter but sources didn't reliably report on it, we couldn't include it. If Wikipedians think something doesn't matter but sources reliably report on it consistently including references to that something, I think there is an obligation to include it anyway, or in the very least not obstruct those who take up that duty. Ash Carol (talk) 06:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

"It matters not why people came to the synagogue." That is absolutely wrong. Of course it matters! The fact that the perp came into a synagogue and attacked people while they were worshipping is the precise reason he is being charged with all the federal crimes. And if it doesn't matter, then why does the article's very first sentence tell us that it happened "while Shabbat morning services were being held"? Because it matters. A lot. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 04:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• There would not be anything confusing about putting it under "reactions". People will read "incident" to find out what happened. If we later come to the conclusion that the bris was falsely reported by these 20+ sources, then we should say that. It already includes vague stuff like "A CNN editorial described the shooting". False reporting on a subject is definitely happening around it, and is a reaction to the subject. Ash Carol (talk) 06:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

• How about we wait a couple months and see if this is still under discussion in RS? WP:RECENTISM WP:NOTNEWS WP:DUE WP:DEADLINE O3000 (talk) 02:00, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Everyone's always waiting to see, by default. It's what we do till then that matters. Shall we host the reliably-sourced fact, the poorly-sourced opinion that this isn't a fact, neither or both? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:44, November 12, 2018 (UTC)

The slippery slope of condemning articles on recent events would do away with the article entirely. Having acknowledged that the shooting is notable and deserves an article, details of the situation provide context and have done so since day one of reporting. Ash Carol (talk) 06:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

RECENTISM doesn't mean we can't have an article for a clearly notable event. But, NODEADLINE suggests we wait until the dust settles over facts that may or may not be notable and may or may not be known. O3000 (talk) 11:46, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

It's clearly notable since all of these source included that information. If it was not notable then the sources would not consistently include it. Ash Carol (talk) 05:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Misreported facts can be omitted. I have reverted the edit adding material pertaining to misreported facts. I think the implication of the inclusion of misreported facts is to magnify mere errors into factors that have significance. Bus stop (talk) 13:21, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

BS, it is not accurate to say you omitted a misreported fact, because we have not reached a consensus that it was misreported. Consensus in media reports is that it is true, one detractor is not grounds to throw it out. I believe after weighing the evidence it is the detraction which should be omitted as not notable, not the consensus claim. Ash Carol (talk) 05:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I would like to add some CNN transcripts regarding this as well. For example here they say Donald Trump commented on this:

• October 27 at 15:00 MARQUARDT: All right, the president there addressing the horrific shooting in Pittsburgh at the top of his remarks. He said that all of the federal assets that the city needs have been dispatched. He called this attack pure evil. Said it was hard to believe and unimaginable. He did call this an anti-Semitic act and condemned anti-Semitism and other evil in all its forms. He did interestingly confirm that this did happen during a bris, a naming ceremony, on Saturday morning at the Tree of Life Synagogue.
• October 28 at 18:00 JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE: Well, I will be honest, Wolf, I think the events of yesterday in Pittsburgh are nothing less than soul-breaking. I mean, all of our hearts are torn apart. The idea of elderly parishioners being slaughtered in the pews and in the halls of a synagogue on Shabbat morning. It is hard to think of something more sacrilegious. And you imagine that in that synagogue, on that day, there were families who were worshiping, others who were celebrating a bris (ph), right? The baby-naming ceremony for their child. My mean, I, myself learned about this when I was walking out of my synagogue. And it's just absolutely wrenching.

October 27 at 21:00 also includes a focused exchange about it:

• GREENBLATT: It is sad. And Brooke, it will be more sad tomorrow as the stories of the victims come out. And I've -- what I've heard already is heartbreaking. And I think first and foremost our thoughts need to go out to the families and the victims who went into a Synagogue to worship, who went into a Synagogue to pray, and there was a Bris taking place. You know, this is the --
• BALDWIN: There was a Bris?
• GREENBLATT: That's right. There was a Bris.
• BALDWIN: Chairman, go ahead and explain what a Bris is.
• GREENBLATT: So when a boy baby is born, a male baby is born, eight days into its life it's comes to this -- it's brought to the Synagogue for a service where the baby gets its name. And at this moment of hope, suddenly there was this act of horror where a man ran into the Synagogue with automatic weapons and murdered in cold blood 11 people. Whose only crime, of course, whose only offense, of course, was that they were Jewish and that they were praying. So it's hard to imagine something more despicable. And I think just very sad overall. It make them Sikh that attack on the Jewish community, but it's an attack on our country. These are all our values. These are all our children. This is any one of us.
• BALDWIN: The Bris that was happening and the baby boy, we understand the 11 people who were killed were all adults.

October 27 at 22:00 seems like it could provide a possible explanation for different accounts:

• BALDWIN: That's what we heard, that you all practiced. You practiced an active shooter drill. And you had to, you know -- you were prepared for what happened today. I was talking to the head of the ADL earlier and he was telling people that there was a brisk happening this morning. Was there a baby boy all part of this, what happened?
• WEISS: Well, there has been a lot of confusion in regards to this. And my answer to that is this, that there -- the synagogue is called tree of life, but there are also two other synagogues that rent space in the synagogue. So at the same time there were two services, one of which was from the Tree of Life and then there was another service from a separate synagogue called Dor Hadash (ph) and New Life did in fact have a brisk. So there was a bris, a third event that was also occurring at the synagogue. And between the three synagogues it would be fair to guesstimate probably about 30 to 40 individuals were at the synagogue at the time.

Zachary Weiss later mentions in this transcript "they were able to hide in place and then my dad was able to go down to the brisk and make sure they were aware, which they were already hiding." Any objections to using this interpretation? It would explain why some people would say ToL itself had no briss if it was one of the other 2 synagogues that rent space within the ToL synagogue which was doing it. Ash Carol (talk) 05:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

This is all undue. And what if in three other areas of the building there was also a reading group, a group eating breakfast, and some religious school employees discussing next week's lessons; should all those gatherings be specifically mentioned in this article too? The suspect is accused of attacking people while they were worshipping (during Shabbat services), which is why the Shabbat services are prominently mentioned in the article. It's also the reason the suspect is facing all the federal charges. You've already contributed about 3,000 words to this one thread even though it's a relatively minor issue? Why are you putting such an extraordinay amount of time and effort into getting this content inserted into the article? 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 15:45, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Listen 2605, it's SOURCES which decide what is "due" not you. If you can point out as many sources as I have which talk about reading/breakfast clubs, then I would be for mentioning them as well, but sources do not do this, they instead consistently mention a bris. It isn't a minor issue, which is why you see some sources give far more than a passing mention of it, and describe how it makes the attack particularly outrageous. Ash Carol (talk) 07:44, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

There was no bris at Tree of Life during shooting

This November 15 story from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette addresses the confusion about whether or not there was a bris/baby-naming ceremony taking place during the Tree of Life shooting. There was actually a baby-naming ceremony for a little girl taking place at another Squirrel synagogue, Temple Sinai, at the same time the shooting at Tree of Life was happening. Temple Sinai and Tree of Life are one mile apart. The Post-Gazette story explains how the parents of the baby girl believe they were the source of the unverified, viral rumor that there was a bris/baby-naming ceremony at Tree of Life. It also tells how the father's 80+ year old female relative, a Tree of Life member, would have been at Tree of Life during the shooting had she not been invited to the ceremony for the baby. I just wanted to mention this to put an end to all the debates here about this issue. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 17:47, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm afraid this article by Bob Batz Junior does nothing at all to discredit the above sources. "Jason and Lauren Silver of Pine believe they somehow were the source of that widely reported but never verified detail." relies on the personal opinion of Batz interpreting the opinions of the Silvers. CNN Newsroom Anchor Brooke Baldwin interviewed Zachary Weiss who conveyed the account of his father Stephen (a 29-year member of the congregation called in to assist the sick rabbi):

there are also two other synagogues that rent space in the synagogue.

So at the same time there were two services,

one of which was from the Tree of Life

and then there was another service from a separate synagogue called Dor Hadash (ph)

and New Life did in fact have a brisk.

So there was a bris, a third event that was also occurring at the synagogue.

These two locations are already described in the article:

The modern synagogue building, located at the intersection of Wilkins Avenue and Shady Avenue in Squirrel Hill, was built in 1953; it rents space to Dor Hadash, a Reconstructionist congregation; and New Light, another Conservative congregation.

Batz claim that it was "never verified" simply could mean that Batz overlooked the CNN interview with Weiss while writing the article. If people denying a bris happened in the building while being aware of the Weiss interview, then they are simply nitpicking over whether "Tree of Life" refers to the entire building owned by ToL, or the room in which the ToL service was being held, excluding the rooms the other services were being held in.

This article by Batz is an example of something not notable, people who think they are the cause of misreporting that isn't actually misreporting. It's more logical to interpret this as Batz/Silvers being presumptuous, not as all the above sources being wrong about there bring a bris in the building. Ash Carol (talk) 08:01, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

As a reader I was confused by the complete omission of the bris issue. I came to this article as a reader to help me understand why so many important sources say there was a bris, but some leave this out. Confusingly, there was nothing in the article about this. Fortunately, the above Talk paragraph clarified the issue for me. I am completely at a loss to understand why it is even controversial to say that the sources should be trusted to say what counts as a notable media reaction. What I see here is that the personal opinions of some editors take precedence over what the sources say. As a reader, I come to Misplaced Pages to learn the truth about complex or disputed issues. This article did me a disservice. Israelgale (talk) 18:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

You came to a shooting article to read about circumcision? Sorry, Misplaced Pages does not report what did not happen. We deal in reliably-sourced facts. WWGB (talk) 23:27, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

WWGB that's a little combative. People sometimes read news articles first, then come to see how Misplaced Pages reports the news. Having established so many sources mention this, it is VERY odd we do not. Since we already mention those two spaces, adding mention that they were also holding services at the time (one of them being a bris) is non-controversial at this point. Ash Carol (talk) 08:01, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

was the bris held by Dor Hadash or New Light

Sources appear to confirm that while a bris occurred within the Tree of Life building, it did not occur upstairs within the Tree of Life's main service, but rather in one of the other two synagogues that rent out the space. This doesn't make it irrelevant since members of all 3 services were killed (7 from ToL, 3 from NL, 1 from DH)

What I need help is in comparing and finding sources which relate specifics as to which of these two services, either "New Light" or "Dor Hadash", was holding the bris. Here are two examples which give different specifics:

• Weiss, Zachary (27 October 2018). "Coverage Of The Mass Shooting In Tree Of Life Synagogue, Pittsburg; Past 72 Hours In This Country Have Been Filled With Tragic Rhetoric And Worse, Hateful Action Just Beyond Comprehension; Aired 10:00-11:00p ET". CNN. 22:00 ET. the synagogue is called tree of life, but there are also two other synagogues that rent space in the synagogue. So at the same time there were two services, one of which was from the Tree of Life and then there was another service from a separate synagogue called Dor Hadash (ph) and New Life did in fact have a brisk. So there was a bris, a third event that was also occurring at the synagogue

• Carlson, Adam; Kantor, Wendy Grossman; Keating, Susan; Pelisek, Christine (30 October 2018). "Worshipers in Hiding, Waiting for Death: How the Pittsburgh Synagogue Massacre Unfolded". People. Retrieved November 4, 2018. Dor Hadash's Dr. Jerry Rabinowitz, a physician who had provided care to HIV and AIDS patients, was killed after he "ran … to try and see if anyone was hurt," his nephew said. The congregation had gathered for a bris, a ceremony to name a baby boy.

CNN is saying New Life had the bris, People is saying Dor Hadash had the bris. Can anyone find a tiebreaker? Ash Carol (talk) 08:37, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages In the news articles
• All unassessed articles
• Pages using WikiProject banner shell with duplicate banner templates
• B-Class Crime-related articles
• High-importance Crime-related articles
• WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles
• B-Class Death articles
• Unknown-importance Death articles
• B-Class Firearms articles
• Unknown-importance Firearms articles
• WikiProject Firearms articles
• B-Class Jewish history-related articles
• Mid-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles
• B-Class Judaism articles
• High-importance Judaism articles
• B-Class Pittsburgh articles
• Unknown-importance Pittsburgh articles
• WikiProject Pittsburgh articles
• Unknown-importance Crime-related articles
• Misplaced Pages requested images