Template talk:NorthMacedonia-stub: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 21:08, 6 March 2019 editWiz9999 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users4,195 edits →Requested move 4 March 2019: Ok, this one really does need to wait.← Previous edit		Revision as of 21:16, 6 March 2019 edit undoBrownHairedGirl (talk \| contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers2,942,733 editsm →Requested move 4 March 2019: restore orderNext edit →
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	:::::It's a great pity that you and MSGJ have chosen this housekeeping RM as your chosen venue to challenge that consensus, rather than taking the proper consensus building path, i.e. RFC.		:::::It's a great pity that you and MSGJ have chosen this housekeeping RM as your chosen venue to challenge that consensus, rather than taking the proper consensus building path, i.e. RFC.
	:::::If you succeed in blocking this renaming, the result will be to leave all these templates named after a title which is now deprecated, in a topic area which has been so highly divisive that Arbcom maintains a live interest in it. I hope that closer weighs the levels of consensus accordingly. --] <small>] • (])</small> 20:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)		:::::If you succeed in blocking this renaming, the result will be to leave all these templates named after a title which is now deprecated, in a topic area which has been so highly divisive that Arbcom maintains a live interest in it. I hope that closer weighs the levels of consensus accordingly. --] <small>] • (])</small> 20:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
⚫	*'''Comment''': Ok, this RM really does need to wait till the RfC is closed {{u\|BrownHairedGirl}}. The Adjective and Nationality questions ] and ] need to be resolved before we can realistically address a significant proportion of these stubs. Do we go ahead with "North Macedonian" or "Macedonian"? It seems logical that the stub's own title will follow the contents within (and the term within). I see stubs that are using one term or the other within the body of the stub template at the moment for similar topics, this won't be tolerated after the RfC is closed. Once the RfC is wrapped up on 17 March we will be able to address these stubs with more certainty. However, that being said, the ] is one entry that absolutely needs to be removed from this list, as it is specifically referring to the ethnicity of the people from North Macedonia. Ethnicity is not really in question with regards to the country's new name. There is currently only one acceptable term for the ethnicity, "Macedonian" (ethnicity is actually also a point of debate ] in the RfC, but it is a significantly one-sided discussion and not likely to shift away from the status-quo of "Macedonian"). This whole discussion needs to be paused until the next 11 days have passed. It really shouldn't be too much to ask for this at this stage. - ] (]) 21:08, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
	*<small>'''Notifications''':</small>		*<small>'''Notifications''':</small>
	**<small>] </small>		**<small>] </small>
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	**<small>] (below the now-closed mass CFD of North Macedonia categories)</small>		**<small>] (below the now-closed mass CFD of North Macedonia categories)</small>
	**<small>] --] <small>] • (])</small> 20:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)</small>		**<small>] --] <small>] • (])</small> 20:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)</small>
		⚫	*'''Comment''': Ok, this RM really does need to wait till the RfC is closed {{u\|BrownHairedGirl}}. The Adjective and Nationality questions ] and ] need to be resolved before we can realistically address a significant proportion of these stubs. Do we go ahead with "North Macedonian" or "Macedonian"? It seems logical that the stub's own title will follow the contents within (and the term within). I see stubs that are using one term or the other within the body of the stub template at the moment for similar topics, this won't be tolerated after the RfC is closed. Once the RfC is wrapped up on 17 March we will be able to address these stubs with more certainty. However, that being said, the ] is one entry that absolutely needs to be removed from this list, as it is specifically referring to the ethnicity of the people from North Macedonia. Ethnicity is not really in question with regards to the country's new name. There is currently only one acceptable term for the ethnicity, "Macedonian" (ethnicity is actually also a point of debate ] in the RfC, but it is a significantly one-sided discussion and not likely to shift away from the status-quo of "Macedonian"). This whole discussion needs to be paused until the next 11 days have passed. It really shouldn't be too much to ask for this at this stage. - ] (]) 21:08, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move 13 February 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved per others (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 15:38, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Template:RMacedonia-stub → Template:North Macedonia-stub – New name of the state, apparently. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 10:16, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Support movement of all former "Republic of Macedonia" pages to "North Macedonia" equivalents, as formal name change has now been implemented. Smith(talk)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 4 March 2019

The request to rename this article to Template:NorthMacedonia-stub has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

– the head article for this Balkan country has been moved from "Republic of Macedonia" to North Macedonia per an RM discussion closed on 13 Feb 2019). The closer @MSGJ noted an overwhelming consensus that now is the right time to move this article. The categories have just been renamed per near-unanimous support at WP:CFD 2019 February 16#North_Macedonia, and the stub categories are at Category:North Macedonia stubs and its subcats.
The hastily-closed discussion above at #Requested_move_13_February_2019 adopted a non-standard naming format which AFAICS is not the convention for stub templates. (@StraussInTheHouse (SITH), please can you leave this discussion time reach a consensus?)
This group proposal standardises on the camel-cased, unspaced format used by e.g. {{SouthAfrica-stub}}, {{SouthSudan-stub}}, {{NorthDakota-stub}}, {{SouthDakota-stub}}, {{NorthKorea-stub}}, {{SouthKorea-stub}}, {{IvoryCoast-stub}}, {{SierraLeone-stub}}, {{IvoryCoast-stub}}. I have tried to include all the relevant stub templates, based on this Petscan search. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:30, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Oppose camelcase. We don't need to follow this awful convention — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:35, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
- @MSGJ, on the contrary, WP:CONSISTENCY applies. If you would like to change the convention, please open an RFC. I am sure you can make an eloquent case for changing it, but unless and until the convention is changed the use of a non-std format for this country will be disruptive for editors and will lead to errors. Stub templates are customarily not accompanied by redirects, because consistent use of the canonical version facilitates stub-sorting using tools such as AWB. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:44, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

PS The naming conventions are at WP:WikiProject Stub sorting/Naming_conventions#Stub_templates, whose talk page would be a good location for an RFC if you want to open one. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:51, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl, sure, no problem, FWIW the unanimous support at other countless RMs was the reason for speedy close. SITH (talk) 20:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

I get that, @StraussInTheHouse (SITH), ... but you overlooked that the other discussions did not concern stub templates, which use a different format to article titles. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:38, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl, oops, this is probably why :P Thanks for letting me know. SITH (talk) 20:44, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Support all per the recent page and category moves. Lugnuts 08:20, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Oppose camelcase. I also agree with MSGJ that this is an awful convention that should be eradicated. Seeing as how the naming convention page is not a guideline, but just a project page, it doesn't mean a lot. However, what is a guideline, is WP:TPN, which says that template names are easiest to remember if they follow standard English spelling, spacing, and capitalization. --Gonnym (talk) 08:39, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Sounds like some people are getting the hump about this so-called camelcase. Lugnuts 08:41, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Lugnuts, you should really have signed that LugNuts :P SITH (talk) 10:09, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Gonnym: the convention is established by the fact that all but about a dozen of the 29,000 stub templates in Category:Stub message templates use the camelcase format.

That is a very strong WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS. Per Arbcom's ruling on Levels of consensus: "where there is a global consensus to edit in a certain way, it should be respected and cannot be overruled by a local consensus". (See WP:LOCALCON).

If you and MSGJ want to challenge that global consensus, you need to open an RFC. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:12, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

This does not seem to be a "global consensus" but a local project consensus which disregards a guideline that says to use a very different style. My position hasn't changed. --Gonnym (talk) 16:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

This is a global consensus. It applies to all stub templates, whatever the geography or topic, and has done so for over a decade.

It's a great pity that you and MSGJ have chosen this housekeeping RM as your chosen venue to challenge that consensus, rather than taking the proper consensus building path, i.e. RFC.

If you succeed in blocking this renaming, the result will be to leave all these templates named after a title which is now deprecated, in a topic area which has been so highly divisive that Arbcom maintains a live interest in it. I hope that closer weighs the levels of consensus accordingly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Notifications:
- WP:CFD 2019 March 6
- Naming conventions (Macedonia)/2019 RFC
- WP:CFD 2019 February 16 (below the now-closed mass CFD of North Macedonia categories)
- WikiProject North_Macedonia --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:42, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Comment: Ok, this RM really does need to wait till the RfC is closed BrownHairedGirl. The Adjective and Nationality questions here and here need to be resolved before we can realistically address a significant proportion of these stubs. Do we go ahead with "North Macedonian" or "Macedonian"? It seems logical that the stub's own title will follow the contents within (and the term within). I see stubs that are using one term or the other within the body of the stub template at the moment for similar topics, this won't be tolerated after the RfC is closed. Once the RfC is wrapped up on 17 March we will be able to address these stubs with more certainty. However, that being said, the Template:Macedonian-American-stub is one entry that absolutely needs to be removed from this list, as it is specifically referring to the ethnicity of the people from North Macedonia. Ethnicity is not really in question with regards to the country's new name. There is currently only one acceptable term for the ethnicity, "Macedonian" (ethnicity is actually also a point of debate here in the RfC, but it is a significantly one-sided discussion and not likely to shift away from the status-quo of "Macedonian"). This whole discussion needs to be paused until the next 11 days have passed. It really shouldn't be too much to ask for this at this stage. - Wiz9999 (talk) 21:08, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

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