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There's a period missing!

Could someone unprotect this page for future fixing of the problem, or fixing it themselves, if access to editing is possible? Under the hitler's infant picture, there's a period missing at the end of the caption text!

Infobox image

Alright, I just noticed that the infobox image was changed, earlier today ; a (very) brief discussion in #wikipedia didn't turn up a consensus as to which image would be preferred. That led me to dig a bit, using Special:Search for "hitler" in the Image namespace. I turned up a few promising candidates, and I'm just wondering what we think of these:

• Image:Hitler Berghof Portrait von Eva Braun gefilmt.JPG, currently used.
• Image:Adolf Hitler in Yugoslavia crop.JPG, previously used.
• Image:Mussolini hitler.jpg Hitler and Mussolini.
• Image:Triumph of the Will - Hitler.jpg, Hitler imposing, saluting, sky behind him

And these last two, which look excellent, and which I think have been overlooked in the past:

• Image:Image-Adolf Hitler Bigger.jpg, b&w portrait photo
• Image:Adolf.jpg, color, painted portrait

Anybody like these? And specifically, which one do we want to have at the top of the article? Luna Santin 03:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

• I like the black and white one, in the second group. Midnight Critter 08:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

My preference is clear, I guess. The Hitler Berghof Portrait. Why use black and white if colour pics are available? If desired I can also produce a colour picture with Hitler including his military cap and his white oberbefehlshaber jacket at the Berghof? Just ask me.

Because the color picture is blurry? Just because something is color does not make it superior to a black and white. --Golbez 09:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I happen to prefer the one with Mussolini in the background. Not only is it the clearest picture quality but it symbolizes the basic unity and affinity of Hitler's Nazism with Italy's fascism. I'm for crisp clear picture, not blurry. Color is unimportant.Giovanni33 05:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, Gio, why this picture disqualifies itself in regard to the infobox:

1. It doesn't depict Hitler but him and someone else.

2. If it really symbolizes "the basic unity and affinity ..." it would be even wronger, as no such basic unity exist.

I myself prefer the "Hitler bigger" (but there were problems with that before) or the one "in Yugoslavia", though cutting of the legs of that one might improve it (I don't know whether we can do it). Str1977 09:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

We don't want a picture that "symbolizes" anything. We just want one that depicts Hitler clearly and recognisably, without presenting him as heroic (like the Breker sculpture that was briefly used a little while ago) or as evil. A photo is preferable to an an art work. The current one is not ideal becasue his tache is rather over-emphasised, but it's srvicable. Paul B 09:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is this ugly, not clear, blurred Yugoslavia picture used again? What's the point of that? It's too dark, black and white, of bad quality and very aggressive. Please reconsider all pictures. Not the one with Mussolini. There is an alliance, but Italian fascism is very different from Hitler's ideology, as much as Japanese Imperialism was from Nazism.Smith2006 11:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Colour has prevalence over black-and-white pics, that's for sure.Smith2006 11:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Says who? Stop saying that like it's some sort of law. If the black and white picture is otherwise sharper, better, and more historic, the color picture does not have "prevalence". --Golbez 15:28, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, my dear Golbez, does the new picture suit you? It's in color, full body, not glorifying, and clear and not blurred, low quality and unclear like the old black and white "yugoslavia" one!Smith2006 23:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that it is color is but one of the aspects that makes it good. Not great, but better than the one you were trying to put up there. --Golbez 00:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Image:Image-Adolf Hitler Bigger.jpg is best. --TheM62Manchester 18:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the consensus is leaning that way, and I recall seeing it on this page once before. That is definitely the most appropriate and NPOV picture for the top. Romperomperompe 06:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Another alternative is: Image:Hitler Posing Official Colour Picture.jpg. Smith2006 00:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

As two individuals keep removing colour pictures and inserting a triumphalist Hitler picture in black and white, I have another proposal. This is a better colour picture with the same "view" as the black and white one. Image:Hitler Posing Official Colour Picture.jpg.Smith2006 21:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

(added colon to yours, Smith2006, sorry if you object and feel free to revert) Personally, my money is still on Image:Image-Adolf Hitler Bigger.jpg, but I'd be open to "Yugoslavia," (cropping might be worth considering). "Eva Braun gefilmt" doesn't look "professional," though I guess I can't quantify that. This last one would be excellent except for the shadows, so I'm kind've undecided on it. If that's where consensus leans, so be it. Luna Santin 04:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Calling the picture correct is reason enaugh to dislike it for me. The bigger image has been the prefered picture on this article for a long time, but most suggested pictures have to actually pass the copyright test. Agathoclea 09:04, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The "Bigger" image is removed by bot because it was tagged as unsourced, and the present image, well, excuse my french, stinks. Anyone want to change it? Aran|heru|nar 10:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Huh. Apparently it was uploaded with {{pd}} for licensing, and that tag is deprecated -- looking at page history, the uploader suggests that as German images from wartime should be in the public domain; can anybody verify or negate that, so we can stop worrying about it? What we have as I write this, Image:Hitler giving a speech National Film Board.jpg is absolutely excellent for inclusion in the article, even if I have minor reservations about it being the infobox image. Other alternatives might be Image:Adolf.jpg or the old Image:Adolf Hitler in Yugoslavia crop.JPG. And please do consider Image:Gayhitler.jpg for my sake. Luna Santin 21:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Basically any German originating picture is copyright under Spanish law due to a leveling of European copyright law. Which then applies in the US due to treaty arrangements with the EU. Smith usually uploads Hoffmann images, which would be copyrighted until 2027 I believe. As there are already at least 2 copyright-free images available we cannot claim fairuse as a general picture to depict Hitler. I do prefer the Feilmspeech pic to the Yugoslavia as it shows him "talking", something apparently he liked doing. 22:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Any photo that's not a nazi propaganda photo would do. Misplaced Pages is NPOV, so we don't want to adopt the Third Reich's POV, do we ? Thank you !

Right, so are you going to demand that the photos of Churchill be changed because they are "British propaganda photos" and of Roosevelt because they are "American propaganda"? German photographers didn't have magic Nazi cameras. Paul B 15:51, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

As mentioned below in the next category, we really should not use the origin of the picture as a criterion for display (outside of fair use, of course). Utilizing origin or intent disregards the fact that a picture is a picture is a picture...regardless of where it came from. The origin of the picture does not make a picture "pretty" or "clear". In fact, using the origin of the picture as a criterion for display applies the individual's opinion of the origin to the picture's quality. Opinions reflect a POV. In this case, since most people do not like Nazi Germany (and justifiably so), chances are they think the Nazi Propaganda was bad as well. So the line of thought becomes "Nazi Germany is bad, so the Nazi's propaganda must be bad as well. Since the Nazi propaganda is bad, then so is this picture". This line of reasoning totally ignores the fact that the picture might just be a GREAT PHOTO! Since Misplaced Pages strives towards NPOV, we should not use the picture's origin as criterion for display. Rather, we should be looking for factors such as clarity, size, color, brightness, and proportions as the criteria. These represent objective traits as to the photo's aesthetic value...much more palatable than someone's POV. --Tbkflav 01:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Image

This image comes from a large photo with Hitler and Mussolini together, and is free. It's definitely better than the current photo at top - how about changing it? Aran|heru|nar 12:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Certainly better than the Nazi-propaganda picture Image:Adolf Hitler 1938 Berghof.jpg. Camillus (talk) 23:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The "cropped" version Image:Mountainadolf.JPG is just as bad - why the hell should the english wikipedia use a Nazi-propaganda picture, designed to glorify Hitler? Camillus (talk) 23:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

We want an image that clearly displays his features (no heavy shadows), and is neither designed to show him as a "visionary hero" nor as a "ranting maniac". I guess that all things being equal colour is better, but only marginally (b+w can present physiognomy more sharply). The signed Berghof pic did seem to show him as a "loveable guy", perched tentatively on the balustrade. I think the cropped version is less, as it were, charming. Can you actually explain what is "bad" about it, or how it "glorifies" him? Paul B 23:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, not allowed to alter (crop) a fair use image. --Lysy 00:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Sez who? I see no such statement in fair use. Indeed it gives an example of "sampling" in music, which is the aural equivalent of cropping. Paul B 00:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Fair use does not mean the copyright is void. Therefore one has to respect the moral rights of the author, including the right to the integrity. --Lysy 00:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

As I've already said, this is contradicted by the discussion on fair use. In fact cropping for clarity, illustrating a detail etc of both copyrighted and historical photographs occurs every day in newspapers, journals and magazines. It's normal practice. Paul B 09:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It is but it requires the consent of the author or his descendants. That's what the right to the integrity of the work is about. --Lysy 10:27, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Hitler is portrayed by his favourite propaganda photographer, in his smartest uniform, with a mountain backdrop. That's bad, in my book. As usual, the German wikipedia leads the way in chosing neutral pictures, showing him neither as hero or villain Image:Adolf Hitler in Yugoslavia crop.JPG. Previously they had just a plain side-on photograph. Camillus (talk) 00:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

How about not using Nazi propaganda pictures to illustrate Misplaced Pages ? I second that en.wiki could follow the good example set by German wikipedia here. --Lysy 06:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not! Just because a picture originally served as propaganda is no reason not to use it. In fact, the then-propaganda has its informative value as it also tells us how that person presented himself. We should use a picture that is both of a good photographic quality, representative of the person depicted. Just because Hitler is the greatest criminal in history doesn't mean that we should use a crappy picture to make him look bad. Look at Stalin or Mao - these articles use official pictures too. The "speech" picture or the supposedly "correct picture" are just horrible. Str1977 07:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Propaganda pictures would be a good illustration for an article on Nazi propaganda but not for an article about the actual person. If Nazi propaganda claimed Hitler was beautiful and 10 feet tall, should we also be using this information in the article ? --Lysy 08:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

No, becuase it would be inaccurate. You are misusing the word propaganda here, because you are equating it with deception. In fact the photo of Hitler you approved of - showing Hitler with his officers - is just as much "propaganda" as the one you dislike. Even photos of Hitler apparently "ranting" were often official images designed to show him as an impassioned speaker. A portrait photograph that is simply showing someone posed is no more usefully described as "propaganda" than the portrait photographs that everyone has of their own family. Paul B 09:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I specifically object to using Nazi propaganda illustrations for general article about a person on wikipedia, where there are non-Nazi pictures available. --Lysy 10:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Moot point. Nazi propaganda is usally copyrighted. Hoffmann died 1957 (+70pma). Free use is either US goverment (or canada) or picture licenced to freeuse like the yugoslavia picture. Using Stalins propaganda picture is no precendent as Soviet copyright was a lot different. Agathoclea 10:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Nazi photos" are not imbued with some evil force that makes them somehow fundamentally different from other photographs. Portrait photographs of Nazi leaders are not meaningfully different from portrait photographs of Churchill, Roosevelt, Stalin or anyone else. Before photography, portrait paintings served the same purpose. Of course all usually try to show the person in a good light and follow common conventions. We have numerous articles on people from Alexander the Great through Osama bin Ladin in which portrait images are used. Paul B 11:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Funny how Communists never object to the same criteria being applied to Stalin's article or articles pertaining to the Soviet Union, the GDR ect. Reading through it we see "economic reform" or "collectivization" being used to describe some of the more deplorable Soviet policies resulting in tremendous suffering and loss of life, but on Hitler's article the equivelent terminology being used is "repression" or "genocide" or "removing the remaining limits"..... --Nazrac 23:05, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Nazrac, what you point out is an issue relevant to the articles of Stalin etc. as the mistake lies with them. Str1977 07:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I think its perfectly relevant to this article to point out the double standards and other counter-productive partizan activity associated with the criteria selection in certain politically charged articles. I am simply commenting on Paul B's remark in response to a claim that any image that does not portray Hitler in some negative light is Nazi propaganda. That sort of silly trite is almost the standard for any discussion about Hitler or the Third Reich, which by itself is to be expected. However the glaring inequity of opinion and the slanting of articles to certain dispositions becomes even more transparent when you compare the framework in which these two relatively equivelent articles are shaped. There is a lack of any real detail regarding Nazi policies which does not deal with genocide. There is very little about Hitler except from a few questionable sources which rehash the same garbage from other sources. Instead of making this article more balanced and comprehensive, it has turned into something resembling a poorly researched term paper. To improve the article I would suggest reframing to include a broader perspective of the man and his policies, not simply the cartoon super villian genocidal lunatic he is portrayed as here. One could easily fall into that trap with the Stalin article, however the authors have done a good job avoiding that. I suppose however that may be due to the fact that the article is policed by Stalinists like Lysy with a fanatical zeal. --Nazrac 00:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe the picture should be an "official" type picture. Just like there is for every other world leader from George Washington to Stalin. Encyclopedias use "official" type pictures. Not some candid battlefield etc.. shot. Not wanting to glorify so and so shouldnt dictate the quality of the main profile picture.

We really should not use the origin of the picture as a criterion for display (outside of fair use, of course). Utilizing origin or intent disregards the fact that a picture is a picture is a picture...regardless of where it came from. The origin of the picture does not make a picture "pretty" or "clear". In fact, using the origin of the picture as a criterion for display applies the individual's opinion of the origin to the picture's quality. Opinions reflect a POV. In this case, since most people do not like Nazi Germany (and justifiably so), chances are they think the Nazi Propaganda was bad as well. So the line of thought becomes "Nazi Germany is bad, so the Nazi's propaganda must be bad as well. Since the Nazi propaganda is bad, then so is this picture". This line of reasoning totally ignores the fact that the picture might just be a GREAT PHOTO! Since Misplaced Pages strives towards NPOV, we should not use the picture's origin as criterion for display. Rather, we should be looking for factors such as clarity, size, color, brightness, and proportions as the criteria. These represent objective traits as to the photo's aesthetic value...much more palatable than someone's POV. --Tbkflav 01:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

further copyrighted pictures on this article

see here and here. (Just noting this for the archives). Agathoclea 13:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

At least for me, those links don't go anywhere (just an empty page)...--Frescard 14:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

They probably got some session handling, updated the links to the search pages - then select the picture. Agathoclea 16:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I can see them now. But I don't see any copyright information. Just the fact that they're selling them doesn't mean that they're not in the public domain, or that using low-res copies would violate fair-use. --Frescard 16:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Clicking on the image gives the lowdown. I have today also been informed that Ullstein threatened to sue Wikipeda last year over pictures taken by Frentz as they now own the copyright. Frentz died in 2004. Agathoclea 16:23, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I haven't done a whole lot of research into 3. Reich copyright issues (which, to put it mildly, are very blurry), but in general keep in mind that copyright restrictions are different in Germany (and for the German Misplaced Pages), as they don't recognize "fair-use", or the concept of "quoting" images. --Frescard 16:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

That is true, but the German copyright is valid in the US. I have not marked the files in question for deletion as fairuse might apply, but the rules for that are rather stringent. Agathoclea 16:50, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

German copyright law doesn't override U.S. law, just like U.S. law doesn't override Swedish law - even if they wished so: The Pirate Bay...;)

As far as fair-use is concerned, it seems that these photos would fall into two categories Template:Promophoto (they may not have called them "publicity shots" back when they were taken, but that's pretty much what they were used for), and, of course, Template:HistoricPhoto. Also, if you go through the fair-use checklist, it meets pretty much all of the 10 criteria. So it looks like we're pretty safe with those images (especially at the resolutions they've been uploaded at). --Frescard 17:34, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The fair-use issue aside, the USA have subscribed to accepting European copyright law on European works. All faily recent. Agathoclea 18:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Why should we put the fair-use issue "aside"? That's what these images are being used under. I'm not an international copyright lawyer, but I could imagine that the Misplaced Pages Foundation probably hired a few before they made these rules the official guidelines for fair-use pictures: Misplaced Pages:Fair_use#Policy.
So, rather than trying to interpret international law myself, I go by what's defined as guidelines here, and by those rules those pictures shouldn't be a problem.

If those copyright laws are changed, then we will probably receive updated guidelines. Until then, I'm not gonna do any "lawyering" myself... --Frescard 19:46, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The fair-use issue aside, because that is a whole other matter. The copyright issue has been raised enaugh, and a number of pictures that had been claimed "PD" have been deleted because of it. But I agree the whole situation is a minefield. Agathoclea 22:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

What happened to the "Hitler bigger" picture and what are we doing now? Str1977 22:11, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It has been deleted. Agathoclea 13:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Just curious - how did the (IMO more informative) infobox image Image:Adolf Hitler in Yugoslavia crop.JPG get replaced by the current head shot? Was it discussed here? --CliffC 13:19, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

see and Agathoclea 13:43, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I reverted now as the user in question did not put this to the talk page, and from reading the surrounding sections I gather that Image:Adolf Hitler in Yugoslavia crop.JPG was the favoured free image at the time when the bigger image had to be dropped due to copyright issues. Agathoclea 14:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

War Guilt?

Article 231 of the Versailles Treaty was really only inserted as a justification for-unspecified-reparations. Too much is made here of the 'war guilt' element, which only really became an issue after the 'victors' bill' became known. White Guard 00:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

That is how the Allies intended it. But German perception was different and one cannot blame them for taking the article at face value. And yes, the article was one of the most horrid things and had a tremendous impact,as described in the article. Str1977 08:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This is really only a small point to do with perception and impact. The phrasing here-'all the horrors'-is far too emotive. I suspect that 'war guilt' really only became an issue for the Germans in 1921, when they found out what they had to pay. White Guard 00:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense, it already was an issue in 1919, when Scheidemann resigned rather than sign the treaty. Str1977 09:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a reference that he resigned over article 231 specifically rather than the treaty in general? Can you provide any references for the impact of 231 before 1921? Be very careful about throwing around words like 'nonsense.' In my experience it always betrays a degree of intellectual-and emotional-insecurity. White Guard 19:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

He did not resign only over that article, but the article was an issue. Str1977 22:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Silly Errors

There are some silly errors in this page which-I assume-I cannot amend because of its protected status. To take one small example-how could Hitler have received an inheritance from his father in 1913 when he had been dead for ten years? A more serious point is that much of the discussion of Hitler and the Jews is speculative to the point of outright nonsense. White Guard 01:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

It's only semiprotected. Unless you're a new user, you can edit it. --Golbez 03:06, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I am; only a few days. White Guard 03:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the details of the inheritance, but 10 years' delay in a legal system is not unusual when there's a dispute. Best place for lawyers? Bottom of the sea.--Shtove 23:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hitler was entitled to seize the inheritance only after having reached the age of 24. (Sorry for my bad English.)--80.219.3.66 01:53, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

World War I: "Field hospital"

The article presently states: "Hitler was admitted to a field hospital". Is this really correct? David Lewis (psychologist) writes in his book (p. 14) that Hitler was taken to a 'casualty clearing centre at Linselle' (later referring to it as an 'aid station') and after that Hitler was driven to a 'hospital' in the town Oudenaarde and then further on to Pasewalk lazarett. A (mobil) field hospital is not mentioned (as far as I can skim) -- fnielsen 21:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Mein Kampf and Back Taxes

I do not understand the point made about Mein Kampf-on the one hand the book did not sell well, and on the other Hitler had accumulated over 405,000 marks in unpaid back tax before he became Chancellor, which suggests it sold very well indeed. Which is it? White Guard 00:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The IRS doesn't lie...;) Yes, it was quite popular, even before he became Chancellor (after all 405,000 Marks is a lot of money, when the average income is about 4,000). Heck, it's even a lot of money nowadays!

I've updated that chapter. --Frescard 03:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

To come to a serious conclusion about the books popularity you would have to count the copies sold and not the money made. From what I can remember Mein Kampf was pretty expensive. Also, the issue is who bought the books - if just Nazi sympathizers then I wouldn't speak of popular. Str1977 07:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well...we have the sales numbers:

• 1925 - 9,000, 1930 - 54,000, 1933 - 850,000, etc.
• Translations in 16 languages (even before the war).
• And 4,000 library takeouts in a single year, in a single city (Essen, in 1934) aren't done to impress anybody, or because you "have to". That's proof that there was demand for and interest in the book (as Othmar Plöckinger recently documented).

And whether or not it were just Nazis who were reading the book doesn't really matter. It Nazis make up a significant part of the population, then what they do is, per definition, "popular" (= regarded with favor, approval, or affection by people in general. / regarded with favor, approval, or affection by an acquaintance or acquaintances ). --Frescard 15:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

IMHO we do not need such sweeping statements. Just state the numbers and leave it at that. (PS. When I typed above message I hadn't yet seen the article text on this. Str1977 22:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The endless petifoggery that this discussion page is consumed with boggles the mind. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the underlying motivation for inserting this piece of non-important menutia into the article seems to be to suggest Hitler was some sort of monstrous tax cheat. The German government obsolved him of the back taxes owing in 1933. In an article already brimming over with trivial garbage what purpose does this serve? --Nazrac 23:17, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Pettifoggery?-perhaps. All I personally am interested in is accuracy. Any fact, or statement of fact, whether large or small, should be logical and consistent, otherwise there is no point in writing history at all. I do not put the interpretation that you do on this point; I simply ask for-and expect-clarification. However, I will say that the sales of Mein Kampf before the Machtergreifung is an important issue by any reckoning, providing a touch on the changing political pulse of GermanyWhite Guard 23:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The point of mentioning the back taxes is not so much to paint Hitler as a tax cheat, than to prove that the book actually sold, and sold well. If you're trying to make the point that "Mein Kampf" was popular even before Hitler was in power, then using independent number from the tax office are the best way to support that statement. --Frescard 00:47, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Frescard,

not at all. If that is the point of mentioning his tax evasion, the passage should be removed. The point of mentioning the tax evasion should be strictly to point out his tax evasion, which doesn't sit very well with Nazi ideology, does it.

regarding the popularity of the book that is quite a shaky (and POV) judgement. Let's just state the numbers and get on with it. Str1977 07:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Str1977 - please stop acting like you own this article, and you alone decide what's appropriate for it or not.

The fact that the book was actually popular and much-read may not fit into your worldview, but that's too bad...

It's a fact, it has been proven via several sources (one of them the tax office numbers), and since this is not an article whose purpose is to whitewash the behaviour of the German population, but rather to describe Hitler's actions and position, this is very significant and note-worthy indeed. Or are you claiming that it is irrelevant whether millions of Germans who voted for him were aware of his policies or not (as they would be, if they read "Mein Kampf")? --Frescard 14:51, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Frescard on this one. Str1977 why do you think your opinion is of such paramount importantance that every dispute must be ended with your bellowing? Infact it would seem I cannot post a single comment on this discussion page without you immediately within an hour posting some obscure comment about how its lack of relevance to the article, as if you have not even bothered to read the whole thread. Once again I think this boils down to petty semantics, and the bad taste it leaves in your mouth when anyone uses the term "popular" in relation to Hitler or the Third Reich. The popularity of the regime is not in question, or it would never have achieved power, and would not have a cult following to this very day. The popularity of the book is not in question either, as it sold in massive quantities. I do recall reading somewhere, although I'm not entirely sure where, that newly wed couples were given a copy of Mein Kampf. It also also handed out to party members as part of their studies. How many people actually read the book, and how useful or enjoyable they found the experience is another matter and of no relevance. I suggest you stop trying to impose your POV on every contention raised in this article and think about how it could be improved. --Nazrac 00:33, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

What happened to the info box? It's one thing to turn it into another version of our succession boxes (but do we really need this?), but quite another to use wrong terms and titles - "Führer" does not equal "Reichspräsident". Str1977 07:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

The article now has a customised "German Chancellor" infobox. H was Chancellor (Head of Government) and President (Head of State) = "Reichskanzler" und "Führer" (the latter was -in the context of German Head of State - H's own term for "Reichspräsident" and H accordingly became "Führer" after Hindenburg's death in 1934). Sometimes these two positions are regarded as the same office (H was officially called "Reichskanzler und Führer"), but that's not correct. Nor is it absolutely correct to call H "Leader of Germany" instead of President of Germany. Certainly, H was "Führer" of the political party of NSDAP even before he became "Führer" of Germany. Camptown 15:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know why you deleted your comment but I will address it anyway.

"Führer" was Hitler's title as the leader of the NSDAP. (and not simply "his term for Reichspräsident")

"Reichskanzler" he was as head of the government.

In 1934 Hindenburg died and Hitler succeeded him as head of state but not as Reichspräsident -that title was retired "out of respect for the Field Marshall" (their words, not mine). A special succession law made Hitler head of state under the title "Führer und Reichskanzler". He bore these titles before but now they became the title for Germany's head of state.

If you feel uneasy about leader of Germany (which is a translation just like Chancellor of Germany) you can write either "leader and Chancellor" or simply stay with the German title.

Linking to President of Germany is also okay, as Hitler fits into that list, but we will not call him Reichspräsident. He simply was not President period.

Anyway, I don't like the addition of another succession box in place of the former info box and am tempted to just repost the old one. Also, why are his birth and death given under his terms of office as Chancellor. Doesn't make sense to me. Str1977 21:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, H. was at least never officially called "Leader" in the English speaking world, but Chancellor or sometimes President (even if he formally wasn't a President). President was probably an easy way of acknowledge him being a head of state; it also makes sense as regards the succession. I guess the term Head of State is as good as any. Camptown 21:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

He functioned as President but he wasn't President. To say that would be like calling Oliver Cromwell King of England. Str1977 21:43, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

True. H. should have been called the "Leader", but for different reasons he wasn't. Listing him now as the "Leader" in Misplaced Pages seems to me a bit artificial. And the same goes for "President". How about: Head of State ("Leader and Chancellor")? Camptown 22:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Isn't that what I posted? Str1977 22:30, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Hitler is certainly, and frequently, called "The Führer" en English. I don't see what the problem is. john k 22:38, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

If the English term "leader" is uncommon as a reference to Hitler, we should not use it as a title all by itself. We can however use it as a general term for his role, and we can (and this is what I have done) use it as a translation of the German "Führer". But "head of state" in some places is also okay, just not ever ever President.

What about my other question? Do we really need to turn the infobox into another succession box, with birth and death ascribed to the Chancellor but not the Führer and Reichskanzler Hitler? Str1977 08:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The present infobox is much more informative than the one that was used before. And even Hitler deserves the same kind of infobox like any other German Chancellor. Bondkaka 07:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Entente or Allies

I have twice now had to change a reference to the Treaty of Versailles being imposed by the 'Entente.' It was not for the simple reason that the Entente-which strictly speaking refers to the Triple Entente between Britain, France and Russia of 1907-ceased to exist with the Russian revolution. The correct term used by the victors was the 'Allied and Associate Powers', the US being the 'associate' because Wilson did not want to be linked to treaties concluded prior to American entry to the war. It may be a small point, but in terms of simple historical accuracy the use of Entente is wrong. White Guard 22:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

White Guard, the Entente cordiale was the alliance between the UK and France. Russia was not a constitutive factor to it. The term Entente was commonly used in Germany to denote the victorius Alliance. And Allies to me sounds too World-War-Two-ish to me. A possible alternative would be victors. Str1977 22:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC) (posted in edit conflict)

No, White Guard, as I explained above, the term is not wrong. Str1977 22:28, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Allies is not wrong, and "Allied and Associate Powers" was, indeed, the term officially used. I don't like using "Entente" to include powers that were never in the Entente like the United States and Italy. john k 22:36, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I am certainly open to alternatives, but to simply put Allies all the time is not to my liking, especially given that the mere word still has a general meaning. Str1977 22:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

John K is right; it is quite simply wrong to refer to the victors of 1918 as the Entente-properly speaking they were the 'Allies and Associate Powers', which was the expression used at the time. By 1914 the term Entente would not refer to the Entente Cordiale of 1904 but the Triple Entente of 1907. I chose 'Allies' or 'Western Allies' as the more neutral term. I will accept the rather imprecise 'Victors' if this is going to become an issue; but I stress, once again, the use of Entente in 1919 is wrong, and that I will not accept. White Guard 22:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

WHite Guard, John didn't say that Entente is "simply wrong" - it is not simply wrong, though other terms might be better. The term was used in Germany at least until the 1930s. "Allies" I oppose because of its potential to be misread. "Allies and Associate Powers" is too long for our purpose. "Neutrality" is no issue here at all. Str1977 22:56, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Historical accuracy is. White Guard 22:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

No doubt about that ... and clarity as well. Str1977 23:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. White Guard 23:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Why not just "the victors" or something like that? john k 23:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

That would suit me fine. Guard? Str1977 08:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of peace, OK White Guard 00:50, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Please add oc:Adolf Hitler

A link to the recent article oc:Adolf Hitler. Thank you. pt:User:João Xavier 00:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

11 millions

The number of victims as a result of World War II, are, according to a few versions, about 50 million, whether as a result of the war or of Hitler's crimes. Of these, 18 million were Germans. Among the victims of this war were Jews, like other members of the human race, but all of them should be considered victims of the Holocaust.

Don't be absurd. In the context of WW2 the term "Holocaust" refers to the systematic murder of people to eliminate them, not to deaths caused by warfare itself. The vast majority of such victims were Jews, who were targeted simply becasuse they were Jewish. Paul B 12:33, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

this is another lie. the article says there is no document that proves that he wanted to exterminate anyone. so how can you just jump to this conclusion without proof? (user: david thomas)

Remember that alot of those numbers come from the Chinese losses during the war (about 10 million) so how can anyone claim those as a result of Hitler or his policies? --Nazrac 22:56, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The suggestion above that 18 million Germans died in World War II is absurd to the point of statistical lunacy. I thought it must have been some kind of typo, but I cannot conceive what the correct figure was meant to be (1.8 million?). The best figure we have for German deaths from all causes is round about 2 million. As far as I am aware the term 'Holocaust' originated specifically to describe the mass murder of the European Jews. The wider term Genocide would extend the the murder of other racial minorities, including the Roma. White Guard 04:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've read the figure was 8 million - military and civilian, including those killed in the months after the German capitulation.--Shtove 17:07, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Every source I have read puts the total death toll from all causes at around 8 million as Shtove has suggested. There are alot of inconstitent figures out there, mainly due to the fact that massive numbers of captured German POW's were sent to forced labour camps after the war for indefinate periods of time with no communication to home. Hundreds of thousands (some sources state up to 1.5 million) did not return. There are also inconsistent figures on how many German soldiers and paramilitary died in captivity near the end of the war andimmediately after. Some sources I have read listed casualty figures for German POW's well into the mid 50's from the Western Allied captivity with the Soviet captivity deaths being unavailable or highly inconsistent. The number of civilians believed to have perished is also disputed, due to the chaos and collapse of all official order in Germany at its occupied territories at the end of the war and the mass expulsions and displacement that took placer afterwards. Additionally some sources I have read stated up to 1.2 million Germans died (including all causes of death) during the expulsions, displacement and resettlement. These are only a few examples of the difficulty in trying to establish accurate figures, 18 million seems out of proportion, although this may be explained by the Germans living outside of Germany proper in the former states of Prussia, Bohemia et al. who were counted as part of the total German population prior to the end of the war in German census figures. --Nazrac 22:17, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for that information. I confess I was thinking specifically of wartime deaths; but on further examination I accept that my 'guesstimate' was still on the low side. Somewhere between six and eight million would seem to be more accurate. White Guard 22:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The number of people who died in the War will probably not be known. However, it is worth mentioning that the figure for the number of Jews who died/were killed in the holocaust is suspect. Even Jews like Norman Finkelstein in his book "The Holocaust Industry" has questioned whether 6 milion jews actually died. Of course any questioning of the holocaust will have you branded as anti-semitic, at worst, or a holocaust minimizer, at best. Regardless, it is worth noting since even some practicing Jews have doubts about how many Jews actually died in the Holocaust.

It has always been accepted that the figure is an approximation. That doesn't make it "suspect", just imprecise. Acknowleging that imprecision has nothing to do with "questioning the holocaust". There is, however, a legitimate debate about which deaths should be included in the "holocoaust" and which in "warfare". Do the reprisals following the death of Heydrich count as "holocaust", "war", "non-holocaust war crimes" or something else? Are all concentration camp deaths part of the holocaust - even those of the ordinary criminals who were housed in the camps? There is a huge grey-area of Nazi brutality and murder that can't neatly be fitted into the concept of the holocaust and which accounts for some of the inconsistencies in the figures. Paul B 10:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like this changed "By then, Hitler's racial policies had culminated in a genocide of eleven million people, including about six million Jews, and the systematic killings of many other groups and nationalities, in what is now known as the Holocaust." Holocaust comes from two Greek words. Holo = Body Caust = Burning. Not necesarily refering to just the Jews It is fine except you are missing Roughly 6.5 million people. These are just estimates. 3.5 million of which were Catholics. This is the tragedy of our history books in our schools. When they teach about WWII they only speak of the Jews and not the rest of the people. I think the 6.5 million other people should be listed as well and not forgotten. That is a very large number to be ignored and leaving only the Jews to have all of the attention. Very disturbing in my eyes. Hopefully this will be changed and the real truth come out.

Greetings. The reason for the phrasing is because killing Catholics was not a racial policy, but a political one. The primary group targeted by the Holocaust was the Jews. However, if you examine the article The Holocaust, you will see that other groups--including the Catholics--are included in the tally. Justin Eiler 01:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I've always understood that Holocaust has religious connotations ie. burnt offering, and is only appropriate in referring to the jews, since their murder was motivated by notions of religion and race.--Shtove 09:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Details

"The Treaty of Versailles deprived Germany of various territories"

What territories? Surely, it is not an encyclopedia's job to be so vague.

No, but go and read the article on that topic. Str1977 12:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

perhaps it should be mentioned that the treaty imposed upon German deprived it of about 15% of its territory and displaced approximately 10% of its pre-WW1 population, rather than simply "various territories" in which I am fairly certain the author of the article could neither name nor point out on a map without googling it. --Nazrac 00:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

For those who are interested in this issue the territory in question-besides the colonies-was Alsace-Lorraine (to France), northern Holstein (to Denmark), Eupen-Malmedy (to Belgium), West Prussia and parts of Silesia (to Poland), and Memel (to Lithuania). Some of these territories were detached by means of plebiscites carried out after the conclusion of the Versailles treaty. In all of these territories-with the exception of Eupen-Malmedy (and the city of Memel)-the ethnic Germans were in a minority. Apart from the case of Eupen-Malmedy the one obvious injustice was the detachment of Danzig from the rest of Germany. However, compared with the earlier treaty of Brest-Litovsk Versailles-in its territorial aspects-was relatively mild. White Guard 00:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Upper Silesia (with a major German population) became Polish despite a contrary result of the plebiscite held before.${\displaystyle Insertformulahere}$

Hitler and African-Americans

It has come to my attention on the view that Hitler had of African-Americans, I hope someone can help verify the following information. Where the Tuskegee airmen really treated respectably by the Nazis, and did Hitler really shake Jesse Owens hand in the Berlin Olympics?

The answer to your second question is explained in detail on the Jesse Owens article. --Golbez 04:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Authoritarian vs totalitarian rule

I don't know where to put this, so I'll try here. I have studied political science, and when I read the article about Adolf Hitler I came upon something that in my view is wrong. In the text Hitler came to power and established an "authoritarian regime". That word "autoritarian" is generally considered a "milder" form of non-democratic rule where the regime does not try to transform society or the people living in it, but merely wants to rule it/them. A "totalitarian" regime on the other hand, tries to change the whole society and the way people think from the very core. The totalitarian regime is naturally often more brutal. The two "big" totalitarian regimes in history is considered to be nazi-germany and soviet union. Should I change the text into something more approriate with the word "totalitarian" included in order to make it more correct? --Mailerdaemon 16:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point... Yeah, I'd say, go ahead and change it (perhaps with an appropriate reference or wikilink). --Frescard 17:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

You are quite right to define Nazi Germany as 'totalitarian' rather than 'authoritarian'. I would add a word of caution, though: the Platonic models of political science are rarely, if ever, found in their pure forms. There were immense differences in both theory and practice between Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany. As I have said elsewhere, Germany under Hitler was such a jungle of mutually competing interests that it fell well short of the totalitarian ideal. In practice, while having to pay lip service to the state, most Germans managed to live a 'sub-political' life, if it may be so expressed. White Guard 23:04, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Hallo guys, the "authoritarian" bit was the outcome of a conflict in which we couldn't agree on whether the regime was "totalitarian" (as I proposed but which some objected to because of their rejection of the "totalitarian paradigm") or "fascist" (as others proposed but to which I objected because of fascist being to mild and also misused in Bolshevik propaganda). I was never happy with the "authoritarian" as it also too mild IMHO. What do you propose?

Guard, I have stated this before, but I will repeat it here: whether a regime is totalitarian doesn't hinge on whether it succeeded in implementing its objectives. The niches within Third Reich society did not exist because of the regime's choice but because they still existed. In time, these would very well have disappeared, but the regime lasted, thank God, only twelve years and not thousand. Str1977 23:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

You are right, of course, we have no idea how Nazi Germany would have developed if it had been given time, but you seem to be assuming one set of outcomes-an ever more extreme and intrusive Gleichschaltung. But what if it had gone the other way? What if Hitler had died and been succeeded by Goering? Would it not be possible that the Nazi state could have evolved along more 'relaxed' Fascist lines, on the Spanish or Italian model? But just imagine-if you can-living through the hysteria of the Yezovchina, possibly the closest any society came to true totalitarianism before Mao and Pol Pot. Nazi Germany may very well have had the aim; but it still fell well short of the practice. White Guard 23:33, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Guard, sorry but I just realize that I didn't include the second part of my thougt. My point was that the totalitarian nature of a regime does not hinge on the success of implementing it but on the regime's aim. And IMHO we can savely say that the Nazis had totalitarian aims. So, no I am not assuming a certain outcome and maybe, if someone liking Göring would have taken over, things might very well have resorted to something like "normal fascism". But "alternative history" is not within our department here. Str1977 23:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Again you are right; but Hitler was not immortal and you yourself opened up the possibility of alternative futures in your point about how long the regime lasted, or may have lasted. Forgive the polemic but the Nazis came nowhere near the sheer terror of the Yezovchina, always, of course, setting aside their approach to the Jewish question. White Guard 23:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Guard, let me reiterate that it is the aim and not the success that makes a regime totalitarian. (See the dedinition given below by Mailerdaemon.)

You cite the Yezovchina but I guess even in Soviet Russia there were far out spots that were not reached. That these were larger in the Third Reich does not change the fact that both were totalitarian regimes.

The Jewish question has no bearing on our issue here.

"Alternative history" is an interesting past time but not a field of serious study. Str1977 08:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought this matter was closed. Anyway, I am not objecting to the use of the word 'totalitarian' in relation to Nazi Germany (please note my comment at the outset) merely introducing a caveat over the pure use of the term. There were different degrees of totalitarianism, and I mentioned the Yezovchina as a case where all sections of society were touched to some degree or other, in a far more complete sense than the Nazis ever achieved; apart, that is, from the Jewish question, which is indeed relevant to the Nazi political practice. Once again, I emphasise that it was not me who conjured up the spirit of alternative history. I do not wish to have the last word on this matter; but I will always seek to clarify my intellectual position where I feel it has been misunderstood. White Guard 00:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

To clarify one thing: of course "the Jewish question ... is indeed relevant to the Nazi political practice", even central IMHO. However, I don't think it is of any special importance regarding the issue of Totalitarianism. There has been organized genocide in non-totalitarian regimes as well. Str1977 11:13, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if the thought of what could have happened is interesting - I don't think it is necessary to discuss it here. I agree with previous speaker that using the term "totalitarian" is problematic. I do however however still think it is better than simply "authoritarian". I have a fitting definition of totalitarian rule from the book "Comparative Government and Politics" by Hague & Harrop: "A totalitarian regime aims for total penetration of society in an attempt, at least in theory, to transform it. As defined by Linz(2000, p.4), a totalitarian system is ´a regime form for completely organizing political life and society´." For authoritarian rule I find two definitions: "(1) Any form of non-democratic rule.(2) Those non-democratic regimes which, unlike totalitarian states,do not seek to transform society and the people in it" There is discussion around the term "authoritarian" within the field of political science, but this does not mean that the term is not useful or even obsolete. The term "totalitarian" is featured in modern political science litterature including updated course litterature in universities. Personally I think this term has explanatory power and that we should make the change. --Mailerdaemon 00:31, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

This is one of those matters that people tend to fight about, but I favor the term totalitarian, since that was the goal, even if it was not reached. As a Nazi speaker put it in 1938: "The worldview of National Socialism, having conquered the entire nation, now begins to place its stamp on every area of life.... the transformation of every aspect of our life, down to the smallest detail." Bytwerk 01:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

So what is the voice of the collective? Shall we change this into "totalitarian" or leave it the way it is now? It feels like the discussion died out before we could reach a decision. Maybe many feel that this is unimportant, I don't know. We could just leave it the way it is I guess. --Mailerdaemon 09:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I was one of those editors involved in the edit conflict that resulted in the compromise of "authoritarian." No one was quite happy with it as the term, while accurate, can apply to other less brutal and less severe forms of tyrannical governments, and the Nazi's are at the extreme of the authoritarian spectrum to be sure. However, as much as the word totalitarian cures this, it brings in a worse problem in my opinion---the legitimizing of the theory and concept of totalitarianism itself, which is disputed organic theory of the state at best, and one that is discredited at worse. In any case it’s a loaded theory that carries its own ideological baggage, which should not be used without sufficiently problematizing it, in my opinion. I personally recommended something like "fascist regime. " The conflict about this is that while I ascribe to a larger theory of fascism that does encompass Nazism as a variant of fascism, others do not. This, btw, is the dominant consensus view among academics who study the issue but a minority view reserves the designation to Mussolini's Italy. How about simply stating "established a dictatorship?" Or I'd favor "right-wing dictatorship."Giovanni33 09:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

It was and it remains a knotty problem. I would advise against anything containing "left" or "right". While it is clear that Hitler was on the right of the political spectrum of his time, such labels IMHO are much too unclear to anyone not familiar. Hence those American voices popping up every now and then, declaring Hitler a leftist. That makes sense in their political thinking, equating collectivism with the left and individualism with the right, but imports this thinking into another time and another country. I would prefer descriptive labels.

I know I have rejected this before, but what about simply naming both, as in "a fascist or totalitarian regime"? Str1977 11:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

If others are fine with that, I'm ok with it. But, instead of saying, "or" which implies one may not know, perhaps it could be worded like, "an authoritiarian regime that has been described as fascist, and totalitarian?" This way we report these two descriptions of this authoritarian dictatorship, which solves the issue of leaving it in the soft "authoritarian regime," wording, as well as the problem of giving one label the sanction of the voice of WP.Giovanni33 11:16, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer a simpler wording. Str1977 11:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Str1977 on this. Gio is not entirely accurate in his discussion of totaliarianism. There is not a scholarly consensus against the term, and many find it useful. Do an amazon search. There are over 29,000 books that show up. There are numerous scholarly articles on the point as well. I've even written some of them. And "authoritarian" is also a loaded term. So Gio's phrasing privileges one view, whereas Str1977's simply notes the options. I'll make the change and see if it takes. Bytwerk 13:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand. The academic consensus of which I speak referes to Nazism being a varient of fascism. There is no conensus on totalitarianism, but it is much more loaded than authoritarianism. If you say that they are equally problematic in this way (A and T), then I must disagree. The T concept, unlike A, is a disputed theory among politial scientists notwithsanding the number of books that you find on the topic. Its this dispute that Misplaced Pages should not take sides on.Giovanni33 21:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm in complete agreement with the above, though for the sake of historical simplicity I think it best to define the Third Reich as 'totalitarian' in contrast with the 'authoritarian' Kaiserreich. However, if this continues to be a problem I would favour "established a dictatorship." White Guard 23:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Currently Bytwerk changed it to "established a dictatorial regime.' That is fine with me. Just to show that I am not alone among editors here who discussed this question with a view that is identical to my stance, I went into the archives to pull out the below, from John K.:

"Authoritarian may be weak, but it is a term which everyone agrees is appropriate. Totalitarianism is a term whose validity is disputed. Misplaced Pages's editorial voice shouldn't be using terms whose very validity is disputed as though they are unproblematic."john k 14:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

"On the other hand, the alternate word preferred, "totalitarianism," is a highly controversial term. Most historians of Nazi Germany and most historians of Stalin's Soviet Union tend to avoid the term, which is generally seen to a) obscure the very major differences between Stalin's regime and Hitler's; and b) to be a highly politically loaded term, as it is frequently seen as a term used primarily by the right as part of an effort to identify Nazism with Communism. There is no way that the intro should use the term "totalitarianism." john k 05:46, 13 February 2006 (UTC)"

Giovanni33 02:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I still prefer to include both terms side by side, maybe with a footnote noting the dispute (not explaining it, that belongs into the respective articles). I don't think it accurate that T is disputed while F is consensus. The controversy about the T word is more about the overriding value of the T-theory than about the actual description of the Nazi regime. Str1977 11:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I have just noticed that Gio has introduced the name both wording into one passage of the article. However, I think the usage there is not appropriate, as the passage is conderned with the legality strategy and not with the issue of how to classify that envisioned regime. Also, by making big explanations here, the reader may come to the conclusion that Röhm and others disagreed with the aim, a fascist or totalitarian regime, rather then with the method of getting there. At least, I came under that impression, which of course I immediately knew to be wrong. Therefore I have cut this passage down to "Nazi dictatorship" (which should be uncontroversial) and moved the T & F bit up to the intro. Hope you don't mind. Str1977 11:46, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, how about we settle for "brutal dictatorship" then? I know this term sounds like being more of a journalistic term than something from political science. This does not however mean it's not a working compromise for us in this case since we can't settle for T or A. What do you think about "brutal dictatorship"? --Mailerdaemon 14:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't understand why there is a discussion about whether or not "totalitarism" applies to Nazi Germany.

Every definition I've seen defines it as something along the lines of an "autocratic government in which the state involves itself in all facets of society, including the daily life of its citizens. A totalitarian government seeks to control not only all economic and political matters but the attitudes, values, and beliefs of its population."

The main criteria being that the state's influence doesn't restrict itself to just the "big issues", but that it gets involved in all aspects of personal life as well (e.g. schooling & raising kids, replacing religion, culture, etc.).

If that doesn't match the Third Reich to the point, then I don't know what does.

There may be historians to debate how far in particular this totalitarism reached into the private lifes of people, but that Nazism tried (and mostly succeeded) to control every aspect of live, I think that's undebatable.

And, just in case someone needs them, here are a few references: ,,,,,,

--Frescard 15:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with you Frescard. I agree that "Totalitarian" IS a good term to be used here, but there are apparently those who really feel that it would be impossible to use that word.

The underlying problem I see in this discussion is a "problem" with the discipline of political science itself. This science is not "exact" like natural science, there are no "absolutes", everything is relative and more importantly - all theories in political science are debated fiercely within the discipline. It's very little, if anything, that the political scientists can actually agree on. The way I see it there are no theories or terms used in political science that are "consensus". Because of this, a word like "totalitarian" might seem inappropriate since some scientists oppose it and of course publish articles about their critiscism. If we are to use a "political science" word in this article - it should be "totalitarian" and not "authoritarian". These two words are featured and explained in the student litterature for basic political science courses and other litterature in the university. However, if we don't think "totalitarian" is good, then we must choose a "non political science word" like "brutal dictatorship" or something similar. This way we could reach a good compromise since "authoritarian" is clearly misleading. --Mailerdaemon 18:11, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, some comments:

Consensus might be a bit harder in political science than in the natural sciences, but in essence they are not that different.

There are words on which political scientist agree, but some on which they cannot reach an agreement. However, in our case it boils down to these two terms and I think (by now) that we can use both in this instance.

"Brutal" however is not only journalistic but stylistically bad and maybe even a bit POV (thoug I agree with that POV). Str1977 19:30, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with your POV-remark and "brutal" is probably stylistically bad. --Mailerdaemon 20:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Bad? It's awful; please don't go there. White Guard 01:18, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, English is not my first language so the weight of words is not my strong side.--Mailerdaemon 20:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

World War I service

I have read several books about Hitler and never have I seen any author describe his WWI service or behavior as a soldier as 'sloppy'. Please state your source on this matter. I would like to read it myself.

It seems a bit 'sloppy' to me.

White Guard 05:47, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Hitler's Height

Perhaps someone could add in a brief discussion of hitler's height, which is, i think, a question of interest. The height is disputed, but probably about 1.74m (or so i hear). 81.103.144.82 23:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and we could also have a section on his shoe size. Paul B 00:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the shoe size should be in the height section..

What other questions of "size" for Hitler could possibly occupy this new section? Could lead to some kind of Freudian analysis? hehe!

Yes, Gio. That was a good one.hehe! PS. You were talking about his nose, of course, or weren't you? Str1977 11:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, you know, Rosenbaum has a whole chapter on his nose. Paul B 13:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Then, at least, it wouldn't be original research. ;-) Str1977 13:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Xanon 03:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The best sources (including his military physical) place him at 5'8" tall -- however, since he wore a military uniform that included boots throughout the entire war, that probably added about 1-1.5 inches to his height (not to mention the hats they often wore back then that made people seem taller). But between 5'7"-5'10" are the most accurate figures reported, with 5'8" being Hitler's accepted height by the most reliable and thorough historians. --205.188.116.74 03:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course, the military records would give his actual height, without boots or helmet. Str1977 07:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

2nd paragraph of intro

I propose a rejig of this para as follows:

• Hitler took advantage of Germany's crisis after World War I to gain power. He used charismatic oratory and propaganda to appeal to the economic needs of the lower and middle classes, and to their nationalism and anti-Semitism, and managed to establish a totalitarian or fascist dictatorship. With a restructured economy and rearmed military, Hitler pursued an aggressive foreign policy with the intention of expanding German Lebensraum ("living space"), and in 1939 he ordered the invasion of Poland, which triggered World War II in Europe. At the height of its power, Nazi Germany occupied most of Europe, but was eventually defeated (along with the Axis Powers) in 1945 by the Allies. By then, Hitler's racial policies had culminated in the genocide of 11 million people, including about six million Jews, in what is now known as the Holocaust.

I know there are alot of sensitive phrases, so all I've done is rearrange the sentences to make them more readable (IMHO). I did try this before and was chased out of it - but I can't resist, so I'm back for more. Also, the Holocaust seems to refer to the 11 million, but I'm not going there.--Shtove 16:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The only problem with that proposal I see right now is the inclusion of the word "their" with nationalism and anti-semitism. I think it's better to simply leave out determiners. Str1977 07:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Xanon's proposal

I think you should change this part: "in 1939 he ordered the Invasion of Poland, which triggered World WarII in Europe". WWII was started when Britain and France declared war on Germany. Your phrasing makes it seem like the opposite is true. Wars aren't "triggered", they are declared (or undeclared) and then fought. If neutrality is the goal here, then who is to blame should be left out.

Nonsense. World War II started with the invasion of Poland. Period! Str1977 11:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The point of the rejig is to make the para a better read - not to rehash an argument that took place months ago.--Shtove 13:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Why do you say that "World War II started with the invasion of Poland"? That's clearly untrue. Poland wasn't a partcipant in WWII, the war was fought between the Allies and the Axis. Poland was neither. History books are written by the winners, you should sort them for lies - there will be many. Shtove, I wasn't around months ago, but I am here now and I heard that Misplaced Pages's articles are continuosly updated. I propose we change it this way: "In 1939 he ordered the Invasion of Poland, after which Britain and France declared war on Germany." It's more historically accurate.

Yes, Shtove we have discussed this before and triggered was the compromise.

Yeah, I remember.--Shtove 23:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Dear Anon (could you sign your posts?), what I said is clearly true, as Poland was a participant in WWII. The war began pitting Germany vs. Poland and subsequently her allies UK and France. And Poland was an ally all the way through, though it was de facto defeated quickly (but so was France). There was a Polish government in exile in London and Polish troups took part in the invasion of Normandy. That Poland was the big loser of the war, regaining her freedom only after fifty years is another matter but doesn't change the fact that Poland was part of this war and that this war started with the attack on Poland.

What you call "more historically accurate" is IMHO not the proper, concise form for the intro.

Neutrality doesn't mean that we hide facts. And clearly stating the facts is not blaming anyone. The reader is free to consider the attack on Poland to be legitimate, but he must be made aware of the consequences. Str1977 21:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Poland wasn't fighting, and its government in exile cannot be viewed seriously, as cannot a few Polish soldiers that fought on the side of the Allies, since I am guessing there were some that fought on the side of the Axis. I am willing to suggest a compromise: "In 1939 he ordered the Invasion of Poland, after which Poland's allies - Britain and France - declared war on Germany". What do you think of that? "The reader is free to consider the attack on Poland to be legitimate, but he must be made aware of the consequences." Maybe the reader should also be aware of the fact that Hitler probably wasn't trying to start WWII by invading Poland, while you are making it seem like he did? Anon.

Anon - your points will be given more credence if you create an account and log in. And take a look at the discussion on this point from a few months ago (sorry, don't have a link). Thanks.--Shtove 23:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this user has-or had-an account, because I recognise both the plodding literary style, and the specious mode of argument, from other talk pages. I am really not surprised that he chooses to hide behind 'Anon.'

I am reluctant to offer any view on what gives all the appearance of a sterile 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin' style of polemic. The Second World War began as a process: Germany invaded Poland on 1 September and Britain and France declared war two days later in fulfilment of their guarantees. To say that Poland did not participate in the war is both ignorant in point of fact and profoundly offensive in point of detail. Poles fought in their thousands-hundreds of thousands- against the Nazis, both in the west, the east and at home. My grandfather, if I can offer a personal observation, fought alongside Polish formations in both Africa and Italy. Hitler wasn't trying to start WWII? Possibly not; he was most certainly misled by Ribbentrop on Britain's reaction to the invasion of Poland. Of course, the alternative view, promoted by the Führer himself, was that it was the Jews who were propelling Europe into a new world war, for which they would face dire consequences. Let me say that I am alert to all attempts at pseudo-intellectual Nazi revisionism, whether by any Anon. or 'W' or anyone else.

On a more sober point can we please drop 'charismatic' from the opening sentence above. People have this quality, not oratory or propaganda. White Guard 01:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

As with "triggered", the use of "charismatic" has been gone over before. Any views on the para as rejigged?--Shtove 09:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"Anon - your points will be given more credence if you create an account and log in" It just seems like a lot of effort. I used to have an account, but I lost the it a long time ago. And no, you couldn't have seen me on other pages, since I only asked questions at the reference desk.

"The Second World War began as a process" Good, so you admit that much. Then let's describe the process in a bit more detail, so that we don't turn wikipedia into an Ally propaganda site.

"Germany invaded Poland on 1 September and Britain and France declared war two days later in fulfilment of their guarantees." Whether it was in fulfillment of their guarantees or because they felt threatened by Germany can be left out as it is not the object of discussion, yet quite arguable.

"Poles fought in their thousands-hundreds of thousands- against the Nazis, both in the west, the east and at home. " I'm not too familiar with that part, but it's irrelevant. Before Poland there were another half-a-dozen minor conflicts. However, it seems logical to consider the start WWII not the last one in he series, but the declaration of war between the "major players".

"Of course, the alternative view, promoted by the Führer himself, was that it was the Jews who were propelling Europe into a new world war, for which they would face dire consequences." Nobody said that, and don't pretend that you saw that in my words.

"Let me say that I am alert to all attempts at pseudo-intellectual Nazi revisionism" Good for you. Anon 02:49, 22 September 2006 User:199.230.34.82

There, I registered. I can't see what anybody gained from that. Where should I look for the old discussion? Xanon 03:57, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course, all events are a process but we have already reflected that in our compromise back in the day. And still we can savely say that the war (the on titled World War II) started on 1 September 1939, 4.45 a.m., when German troops began to invade Poland.

Anon/199.../Xanon (guessing you are all the same), every now and then someone comes along and shouts propaganda: first some oppose a certain picture as propaganda. Now you say the article is propaganda. I can't see how such utterances could be justified.

It is quite rich to say that Poland didn't fight. Of course they did fight, as other have also posted here.

More details is uncalled for in the intro. Other places are a different matter.

Of course, Hitler didn't want to start World War when he attacked Poland. He wanted to start it with the Sudeten Crisis and conciously extended his demands for that purpose. Only Göring had other plans and got Mussolini to organize the Munic Conference, thus thwarting Hitler's plans by a compromise.

The allies certainly declared war in fulfillment of the guarantees. They gave thes guarantees because they felt threatened by an ever more aggressive Third Reich, that had violated even the Munich Agreement, supposedly Hitler's "last territorial claim in Europe".

Finally, Guard, I think one can call the oratory of a charismatic man also charismatic. But I am willing to be convinced by a number of native speakers. Str1977 06:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"Of course, all events are a process but we have already reflected that in our compromise back in the day." No compromise with my point view has been reached. My opinion, so far, was simply ignored. The compromises reached between other points of view do not count, that should be obvious.

"guessing you are all the same" Correct.

"Now you say the article is propaganda." It contains some.

"first some oppose a certain picture as propaganda" Are you implying I did that?

"More details is uncalled for in the intro." Misleading statements are also uncalled for in the intro, especially since the reader might never read to the point where things are clarified.

"He wanted to start it with the Sudeten Crisis and conciously extended his demands for that purpose." Can you give the source of this information? That Hitler wanted it to escalate into WWII?

"The allies certainly declared war in fulfillment of the guarantees." In war, there is always a pretext. The only one simplistic enough not to have one was the famous barbarian who attacked Rome. The pretext should not be confused with the reason for the war.

"It is quite rich to say that Poland didn't fight." It was taken over quickly and was only one of a series of lesser conflicts, as I have already said. You might as well say that the war started with the takeover of Czechoslovakia. I suggest you take a look here to see that this isn't only my opinion: http://experts.about.com/e/w/wo/World_War_II.htm#hd4

Xanon 09:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• I can't see any propaganda. Point out factual errors or POV problems. I mean real ones and not stuff like what you have put forth until now.
• I also can't see where the intro is misleading. Hence no clarification is needed, only a elaboration.
• It shouldn't be very hard, though I don't have it on hand right now. How about reading Kershaw's bio?
• "In war there is always a pretext" - says who? You or Carl Schmitt? They might have very well waged war for the stated reasons. BTW, the proper distinction is not reason and retext but reason and occasion (Anlaß in German): the reason is Hitler's expansive and aggressive foreign policy - the occasion was his overstepping a line that been drawn by the guarantees: the attack on Poland.
• "It was taken over quickly" but still it is part of the war (leaving out the exile effort for now) - and since that campaign was part of the war, the war must have started at least at the beginning of that campaign. Hence: 1 September.
• As for takeover of the CSR - that was no war. Legally, Hitler bullied President Hacha into asking for protection. Hence the Czech army did not resist the occupation. The Poles did not "ask" for protection and indeed resisted their occupation. Please stop rewriting history - it is no matter of "you might as well say" or "it could have been ..." - the facts are the facts. Period. Str1977 09:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

PS. Misplaced Pages articles can never serve as a reference for other Misplaced Pages articles, even when mirrored on some other webiste and even when possibly outdated. Good day! Str1977 09:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Xanon, Please stop boring everyone with pointless demands for responses to every minor point. Read the Hossbach Memorandum, which clearly records Hitler's intention to start a war at the optimum moment for likely success. Hitler knew that Britain and France has agreed to support Poland should Germany invade. He knew what he was going back on his own undertakings in Munich. Yes, I guess you can say he hoped the western powers would back down, so that he could rape Poland unopposed, but he knew that was unlikely. He knew he was almost certainly triggering a major war. His actions were the main cause. Paul B 09:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

For starters, could some people stop being rude? Thanks.

"Yes, I guess you can say he hoped the western powers would back down, so that he could rape Poland unopposed, but he knew that was unlikely." You can't be certain of that. And since by "WWII" people generally mean the conflict between the more powerful countries, it's logical to consider the start of the fighting between these more powerful countries to be the start of WWII.

"Misplaced Pages articles can never serve as a reference for other Misplaced Pages articles, even when mirrored on some other webiste and even when possibly outdated." Are you sure it's a Misplaced Pages article?

"As for takeover of the CSR - that was no war." That's the point.

"In 1939 he ordered the Invasion of Poland, after which Poland's allies - Britain and France - declared war on Germany" So, what exactly do you have against this phrasing? It's not concise enough? Really, all I am suggesting is that "which triggered World War II in Europe" be replaced by "after which Poland's allies - Britain and France - declared war on Germany". No need to get upset. Xanon 11:01, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Xanon, World War II is the name applied to that big military conflict which in the end pitted Britain, (France,) the USA and the USSR and China against Germany and Japan, with warfare encompassing Europe, Northern Africa and the Pacific and South East Asia. But that war didn't start global (no war does) but local - and the local kernel it developed from was the German-Polish war beginning with the invasion on 1 September. Two days later Britain and France were added and so on and on and on. But the name describes the entire war and that began on 1 September 1939, 4.45 a.m.

"Are you sure it's a Misplaced Pages article?" - It looks like a mirrored WP article to me. It certainly is not a reliable source.

""As for takeover of the CSR - that was no war." - "That's the point." - Then why do you bring it up. No war started in March 1939.

What do I have against the phrasing you propose? Counterquestion: Why are you insistant on removing the fact Hitler began that war? In your version the word "war" is causally connected to a declaration by Britain and France, so as if only their declarations made it a war. Granted had they remained silent, the war would have been over pretty quickly (well, until next time), but it smacks of shifting the blame.

"No need to get upset" - Then why are you buggering us with your strange demands? Str1977 15:13, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"But that war didn't start global (no war does) but local - and the local kernel it developed from was the German-Polish war beginning with the invasion on 1 September." No. There is no reason to consider that lesser conflict the start of the war. It may have been one of the causes of the greater conflict, but it wasn't part of it, just like the takeover of SudettenLand, Austria and RhineLand weren't.

"It looks like a mirrored WP article to me. It certainly is not a reliable source." It looks to me like you are ignoring arguments you can't counter.

"Counterquestion: Why are you insistant on removing the fact Hitler began that war?" Because it is not a fact! It is a reflection of your desire to blame him for the war, which prevents you from being objective.

"Then why do you bring it up. No war started in March 1939." Because when Hitler attacked Poland, no WWII was started either. WWII was started when the Allies declared war on him. You can argue that they were right to do so, since Hitler was a threat to peace and prosperity of all of Europe. You can argue that Hitler probably would have started a war against Britain and France eventually. You can argue that Britain and France didn't want a war, especially one of such unseen proportions. But you can't argue that he started WWII, because he didn't.

"In your version the word "war" is causally connected to a declaration by Britain and France, so as if only their declarations made it a war." See, you just don't like it that the blame seems to have shifted to the Allies. Either mention that the starting point of WWII is a subject of argument, and then list all the events leading to it consequtively, or adopt my phrasing. Xanon 21:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I can live with the amended paragraph (not the above!), and would never seek to reinvent the wheel. Beware of dark forces! White Guard 00:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Once more, I hereby ask the participants of this discssion to stop being rude. I don't want it to turn into a flame war. Xanon 01:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Xanon, you say you don't want a flame war but your posts are simply insulting to intelligence.

"It looks to me like you are ignoring arguments you can't counter." - There anyway was no point in your link.

"There is no reason to consider that lesser conflict the start of the war." - Rubbish. The war started at that moment. Before that there was no war in Europe, not after the Rhineland, not after the Austrian Anschluß, certainly not after the annexation of the Sudetenland by agreement, not after the occupation of the CSR. But with the invasion of Poland war began. It is simply a matter of fact. It wasn't yet global but this is were the war began.

"Because when Hitler attacked Poland, no WWII was started either. WWII was started when the Allies declared war on him." - repeating your wrongheaded view does not make it right. One moment there was no war, the next moment there was. Hence war started at that moment.

To say that "Hitler began that war" is "not a fact" is the most extreme form not even of POV pushing but of spreading false information. It is hard to think you not a Nazi apologist when reading such utterances.

And your statement "you just don't like it that the blame seems to have shifted to the Allies" clarifies that exactly that is your aim. Shift the blame from innocent Hitler who just occupied another country to the Allies who started a global war. It is disgusting. Str1977 10:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

"Xanon, you say you don't want a flame war but your posts are simply insulting to intelligence." If you continue to insist on starting one, you will get one. My patience isn't infinite. It seems being polite is rather unfashionable around here.

"Rubbish. The war started at that moment. Before that there was no war in Europe, not after the Rhineland, not after the Austrian Anschluß, certainly not after the annexation of the Sudetenland by agreement, not after the occupation of the CSR. But with the invasion of Poland war began. It is simply a matter of fact. It wasn't yet global but this is were the war began." The invasion of Poland was a separate conflict. You wouldn't have said that WWII started with the invasion of Czechoslovakia if there had been fighting then, would you? Or if USSR invaded Finland a year earlier, with no other countries getting involved, you wouldn't have called that the beginning og WWII. Of course not, because that war would have been unrelated to WWII. Britain only signed a treaty with Poland because Britain thought that Poland would get invaded. Basically, Britain needed a pretext, and it got one, when Hitler invaded Poland.

"To say that "Hitler began that war" is "not a fact" is the most extreme form not even of POV pushing but of spreading false information. It is hard to think you not a Nazi apologist when reading such utterances." I can't say I care what you think of me, as long as you keep it to yourself. This is not false information, and I am attempting to prove that in this debate. You are free to disagree with me. Hating me for trying to be historically accurate is pretty dumb.

"And your statement "you just don't like it that the blame seems to have shifted to the Allies" clarifies that exactly that is your aim. Shift the blame from innocent Hitler who just occupied another country to the Allies who started a global war. It is disgusting." You just ignored the word "seems", didn't you? As well as anything else I said that didn't fit into your prejudiced image of my position.71.135.33.214 21:13, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It is frankly ridiculous to describe the invasion of Poland as a "pretext" on the part of Britain. Britain and France had not replied militarily to a series of Nazi actions from the occupation of the Rhineland to the invasion of Czechoslovakia. They had then established a public pact with Poland to guarantee support (see Polish-British Common Defence Pact) in the event of a German attack. Every effort had been made to avoid war. To this day the "appeasement" policy is criticised, but apparently you think that the nasty Brits were just itching to blast away at innocent little Germany, whose only crime was to invade and subjugate other countries. Paul B 21:33, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

"They had then established a public pact with Poland to guarantee support in the event of a German attack."

Paul, just listen to yourself. Are you suggesting that Britain wanted to guarantee itself support of Poland, in case Hitler attacked Britain? Of course not. Britain could be fairly ceratin that Hitler wouldn't attack it any time soon. Instead, Britain wanted to prevent Hitler from taking over Poland, by threatening it would declare war on him, if he did. Hitler decided it was a bluff and acted accordingly. If you are not convinced, look at the time they made that treaty and how little time passed before Hitler attacked Poland. Clearly, the treaty was made in anticipation of that.

"To this day the "appeasement" policy is criticised, but apparently you think that the nasty Brits were just itching to blast away at innocent little Germany, whose only crime was to invade and subjugate other countries."

Don't ascribe me views which I haven't stated. I am not trying to make British the bad guys here, and I am not trying to make Hitler look innocent. I am just trying to get the idea that WWII wasn't fought over moral issues, but over territory and power through to people. Germany wanted more power and territory, British felt threatened by it, and probably - rightly so. As far as drawing a moral portrait of the two countries (or rather of their governments) - they are both repulsive. Vilifying the enemy is a standard war tactic and its effects are obviously still felt today. It's much easier to convince a nation to fight against absolute evil, than against people, who might be a lot like them. Do you understand my position now?71.135.69.36 04:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Having restored that bit, I might as well reply to it:

71/Xanon (could you stick with your new username please), I think you are mistaking Paul. Of course, Britain made a pact with Poland to protect Poland and to confront any future aggression by Hitler, which foreseeably would be directed at Poland.

You say the "WWII wasn't fought over moral issues, but over territory and power through to people" - but these are moral issues (and also political issues): whether one state should attack another, whether one state should control this or that territory. And the appeasement policy so often criticized (and misunderstood) nowadays, clearly shows that Britain (and France) in the mid-thirties were open to Germany's reasonable demands (after having failed in that earlier). They said, why shouldn't Germany control all of their territory militarily in 1936, they said: Austrian wanted to be German all along in spring 1938, they said: well, the "Sudeten Germans" don't like being governed by the Czechs and Hitler has stated that he will ask for no more (which is BTW a perfect indicator that Hitler wanted to start the war right then) in autumn 1938. And in spring 1939, after Hitler had broken the Munich agreement, they said: Enough is enough! His next move we'll oppose. And this they did.

"drawing a moral portrait of the two countries (or rather of their governments)" - yes, rather of the governments (I was about to write: don't equate the German nation with Hitler before I wrote the bit in brackets). But it is hard to go beyond the villainous reality of Hitler's government. No doubt, it can be done (e.g. breeding camps), but this article isn't doing it. We have to call a spade a spade, even if it narrating villanous deeds in all their villany (don't know whether all these words exist). We do not pronounce judgement over whether somethin is evil but we related the facts as they are. Str1977 12:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Xanon, our patience is limited too.

The invasion of Poland is factually the beginning of that war we call World War II and not "a separate conflict".

You say, "You wouldn't have said that WWII started with the invasion of Czechoslovakia if there had been fighting then, would you?" - first of all, it is a hypothetical quesion but I will answer it nonetheless: If the Czechs would have resisted, it would have been a war. Given the odds it would have been a short war in that theatre. However, if that war would have soon implicated the western powers and a little later all the world, then yes it would have been the beginning of World War II.

I don't hate you and have not stated what I think of you. Only what you sound like. Your talking about pretexts doesn't change that impression. Str1977 09:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Somebody has been erasing my posts. That is hardly an honorable debating strategy. I will re-write them later. 71.135.69.36 04:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to. I have restored them for you. You are right that deleting posts from the talk page is a no-no except in cases of spamming or some cases of personal attacks. But I am convinced that this happened by mistake. Nothing is actually lost here on WP, you can go into the history and look up any previous version. Str1977 11:48, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Str. "You say, "You wouldn't have said that WWII started with the invasion of Czechoslovakia if there had been fighting then, would you?" - first of all, it is a hypothetical quesion but I will answer it nonetheless: If the Czechs would have resisted, it would have been a war. Given the odds it would have been a short war in that theatre." And you wouldn't have called that short war WWII, correct? "However, if that war would have soon implicated the western powers and a little later all the world, then yes it would have been the beginning of World War II." That's the point. If Britain didn't involve itself, then it would have been just another minor conflict. The beginning of WWII is the beginning of the fighting between the "major players", from my point of view. There were other conflicts long before the invasion of Poland - Italy's conquest of Ethiopia, Japan's aggression against China. None of them are considered to be the beginning of WWII, because they were local and didn't lead to the massive amount of intense fighting WWII is famous for.

"Of course, Britain made a pact with Poland to protect Poland and to confront any future aggression by Hitler, which foreseeably would be directed at Poland." Exactly. The motivation behind that decision doesn't have to be as pure as you probably think it is. Britain had no means to actually defend Poland against Germany (no army located on the Polish border), so basically Britain declared that it would go to war with Germany, if Germany invaded Poland. Germany invaded Poland, (that is, didn't back down before Britain's threat to use force), Britain went to war with Germany.

"You say the "WWII wasn't fought over moral issues, but over territory and power through to people" - but these are moral issues (and also political issues): whether one state should attack another, whether one state should control this or that territory." That's self-righteous hypocrisy on the part of the Allies. Britain was a colonial power, about which the opressed natives of India weren't too happy. In USSR there were concentration camps for the "politically unconforming". US had a habbit of taking over Latin American countries, was largely racist and didn't really give a damn about Jews, which can be seen from the incident when a ship full of Jewish immigrants was turned away. Really, none of the countries let the Jews in - only several tens of thousands were allowed to enter. If you think back to the first World War, Britain and France showed Germany no mercy what-so-ever. Overall - Allies were just villanizing the enemy, while nobody really cared about morality.

"And the appeasement policy so often criticized (and misunderstood) nowadays, clearly shows that Britain (and France) in the mid-thirties were open to Germany's reasonable demands (after having failed in that earlier). They said, why shouldn't Germany control all of their territory militarily in 1936, they said: Austrian wanted to be German all along in spring 1938, they said: well, the "Sudeten Germans" don't like being governed by the Czechs and Hitler has stated that he will ask for no more (which is BTW a perfect indicator that Hitler wanted to start the war right then) in autumn 1938." Yes, leaders say those things and it's up to the population to figure out that their words are just propaganda. Leaders try to present the problem as a battle of Good (that's them) against Evil (that's the enemy, of course). Britain avoided going to war, because going to war didn't seem to be worth it. However, eventually it was unable to ignore the threat of Germany. Then WWII began. By the way, how does Hitler's comment prove he wanted to start WWII back then?

"And in spring 1939, after Hitler had broken the Munich agreement, they said: Enough is enough! His next move we'll oppose. And this they did." Like I said - presenting the events as a battle of Good against Evil is what leaders do. At any rate, they are the ones who started "opposing" Hitler, not the other way around.

Are some of you beginning to see, why I think that blaming the war entirely on Hitler is wrong? So how about a compromise? For instance, we could list several events leading to WWII, without saying who actually started it.Xanon 21:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

This is strange... My comments don't appear when I view the talk page normally, but when I try to edit they are there... I will paste my post, which I recovered from the history page, just in case. Thank you, Str. "You say, "You wouldn't have said that WWII started with the invasion of Czechoslovakia if there had been fighting then, would you?" - first of all, it is a hypothetical quesion but I will answer it nonetheless: If the Czechs would have resisted, it would have been a war. Given the odds it would have been a short war in that theatre." And you wouldn't have called that short war WWII, correct? "However, if that war would have soon implicated the western powers and a little later all the world, then yes it would have been the beginning of World War II." That's the point. If Britain didn't involve itself, then it would have been just another minor conflict. The beginning of WWII is the beginning of the fighting between the "major players", from my point of view. There were other conflicts long before the invasion of Poland - Italy's conquest of Ethiopia, Japan's aggression against China. None of them are considered to be the beginning of WWII, because they were local and didn't lead to the massive amount of intense fighting WWII is famous for.

"Of course, Britain made a pact with Poland to protect Poland and to confront any future aggression by Hitler, which foreseeably would be directed at Poland." Exactly. The motivation behind that decision doesn't have to be as pure as you probably think it is. Britain had no means to actually defend Poland against Germany (no army located on the Polish border), so basically Britain declared that it would go to war with Germany, if Germany invaded Poland. Germany invaded Poland, (that is, didn't back down before Britain's threat to use force), Britain went to war with Germany.

"You say the "WWII wasn't fought over moral issues, but over territory and power through to people" - but these are moral issues (and also political issues): whether one state should attack another, whether one state should control this or that territory." That's self-righteous hypocrisy on the part of the Allies. Britain was a colonial power, about which the opressed natives of India weren't too happy. In USSR there were concentration camps for the "politically unconforming". US had a habbit of taking over Latin American countries, was largely racist and didn't really give a damn about Jews, which can be seen from the incident when a ship full of Jewish immigrants was turned away. Really, none of the countries let the Jews in - only several tens of thousands were allowed to enter. If you think back to the first World War, Britain and France showed Germany no mercy what-so-ever. Overall - Allies were just villanizing the enemy, while nobody really cared about morality.

"And the appeasement policy so often criticized (and misunderstood) nowadays, clearly shows that Britain (and France) in the mid-thirties were open to Germany's reasonable demands (after having failed in that earlier). They said, why shouldn't Germany control all of their territory militarily in 1936, they said: Austrian wanted to be German all along in spring 1938, they said: well, the "Sudeten Germans" don't like being governed by the Czechs and Hitler has stated that he will ask for no more (which is BTW a perfect indicator that Hitler wanted to start the war right then) in autumn 1938." Yes, leaders say those things and it's up to the population to figure out that their words are just propaganda. Leaders try to present the problem as a battle of Good (that's them) against Evil (that's the enemy, of course). Britain avoided going to war, because going to war didn't seem to be worth it. However, eventually it was unable to ignore the threat of Germany. Then WWII began. By the way, how does Hitler's comment prove he wanted to start WWII back then?

"And in spring 1939, after Hitler had broken the Munich agreement, they said: Enough is enough! His next move we'll oppose. And this they did." Like I said - presenting the events as a battle of Good against Evil is what leaders do. At any rate, they are the ones who started "opposing" Hitler, not the other way around.

Are some of you beginning to see, why I think that blaming the war entirely on Hitler is wrong? So how about a compromise? For instance, we could list several events leading to WWII, without saying who actually started it.Xanon 21:09, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Sanity

I think a quotation from Winston Churchill will suffice-"There are some things up with which we will not put."

I am trying very hard not to lose my temper, but I will take this opportunity to make my 'POV' plain-World War II was started by Naaazi Germany. No Naaazi weasel-like redefinitions of the truth will ever suffice.

White Guard 01:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

My lungs began to crow like chanticleer,

That fools should be so deep-contemplative,

And I did laugh sans intermission

An hour by his dial. O noble fool!

A worthy fool! Motley's the only wear.

...and in his brain-

Which is as dry as the remainder biscuit

After a voyage,-he hath strange places cramm'd

With observations, the which he vents

In mangled forms

As You Like It. William Shakespeare

White Guard 10:12, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this isn't the appropriate place to quote Shakespeare. If you want to discuss Shakespeare, go to a forum about literature. Meanwhile, I would appreciate it if you didn't flame and didn't spam this talk page. I suggest you delete this little poem. Xanon

I am happy to say that your point of view absolutely doesn't matter, if you can't back it up by solid arguments, which you are having a hard time doing. Xanon

Xanon, could you please try to make your post more concise (maybe by restricting quotations of other editors to the bare minimum)?

• You are still putting forth hypothetical questions "If Britain didn't involve itself, then it would have been just another minor conflict." But did Britain and France did involve themselves. And your "The beginning of WWII is the beginning of the fighting between the "major players", from my point of view." is just, as you state, rehashing your POV without any argumentative value. Other conflicts are not considered the beginning of WWII as they are unrelated to WWII and as the powers involved entered WWII only later.
• I am sorry to say that but your wording betrays your intention: I didn't say Britain was "pure" but the attempt to defend oneself and other nations against aggression is pure enough for me. And your lauding words for the brave Hitler that "didn't back down before Britain's threat to use force" makes me shake my head.
• Hipocrisy is never an argument. If they were hypocritical, so what. (Still, the UK did not put up death camps in India. The USSR was, if anything, on Hitler's side at the start of the war.)
• And neither is your unsubstantiated claim about propaganda. There is propaganda on all sides but there are also proper reasons and reflections on policy. (And you are twisting my words again when you ask "How does Hitler's comment prove ..." - it is no proof but evidence. If I am aiming at conquering Eastern Europe I will only announce that something is my last claim - in contradiction to my real aim stated internally - if I am expecting the outbreak of war which would render such announcements void. Once the war is started I can then conquer all I can get. Propaganda does not vainly issue just lies, at least good propaganda doesn't.)
• It is you and no one else that constantly talks about "Good against Evil". I know perfectly well who was evil in this fight but it is not the article's business to state that and it doesn't do that.
• "why I think that blaming the war entirely on Hitler is wrong?" - maybe I am beginning to see but the sight doesn't please me at all.
• "So how about a compromise?" - No, we shouldn't compromise factual accuracy!
• Finally, solid arguments I have not seen from you. Only evasion, hypothetical questions, and equivocation. Str1977 09:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I will try to be more concise. Hypothetical questions are a valid tool in an intellectual dispute and you didn't answer mine. Looking back as far as the Punic Wars, the Romans had an interesting political tactic - they allied themselves with nations or states that were likely to be attacked soon by Rome's enemies in order to gain a pretext for war. British did something fairly similar. Perhaps there was an added interest in Poland remaining a sovereign state, but don't go asigning altruistic motives to all of Britain's actions. As Hitler stated in one of his speeches, Britain was interested in a divided Europe.

On the same note, the cause of the war should not be mistaken for the beginning of the war. Why do you say that WWII should include the fighting in Poland? If you don't like hypothetical examples, here is a real life one: the plane crashing into the World Trade Center was a cause for the Iraq war, but it was Bush who declared war on Iraq. (Well, he didn't declare it officially, but you get my point.) So, who started the Iraq War? Bush did, since the plane crashing wasn't a war act performed by Iraq. Iraq, likely, had nothing to do with it. Britain was the first to declare war on Germany, Germany only responded.

• My opinion (the beginning of WWII is the beginning of fighting between the major players) is based on my understanding of the war as conflict between two camps. USA, Britain and USSR on one side, Axis on the other. All others were merely forced to one camp or another, not quite the core of either. Britain's decision to invite Poland into its camp was just that - Britain's decision, with which it sought to alter German policy. Germany did not alter its policy, however, Germany did not declare war on Britain either. Germany merely attacked Poland. The decision to engage in war with Germany was Britain's, not Germany's. That's how the two camps clashed.
• Hipocrisy is indeed an argument. The unsightly practices of Hitler's government were brought to public's attention only to make the public hostile to Nazis and Germany, not because those practices were actually that different from the policies Allies and USSR put in place when they could get away with it. British policy did come a little short of death camps, which were probably judged to expensive. Remember, they were there for the profit. However, if you take into account that there were many times more natives of India than there were Jews... A lesser evil multiplied out by that number of times might turn out greater than the great evil against a comparatively small population.
• "unsubstantiated claim about propaganda." That was typical falsification of information by the leaders of the Allies. If you want to know how exactly Hitler misrepresented the situation - read one of his speeches. I assure you, he is just as convincing as his counterparts and draws a picture just as compelling and just as false. The thing the two cases have in common is that each leader claims his country is motivated only by the concern for the common good of the world, while the enemy's - by egoistic greed and the desire for world domination.
• "I know perfectly well who was evil in this fight but it is not the article's business to state that and it doesn't do that."

The article not-so-subtly implies it, which is unethical academic conduct. At any rate, regardless of whether all of the governments's leaders were monsters (which I strongly doubt), the War was fought by ordinary people, who were either coerced into becoming soldiers or did so voluntarily because they believed it was the right, patriotic thing to do. There was no good side and no evil side.

• Factual accuracy will not be compromised if the events leading to WWII will be listed without statements clearly intended to distribute blame and force a certain moral view on the reader.

I will offer one more compromise. Instead of: "With a restructured economy and rearmed military, Hitler pursued an aggressive foreign policy with the intention of expanding German Lebensraum ("living space") which triggered World War II in Europe by ordering the invasion of Poland", how about: "With a restructured economy and rearmed military, Hitler pursued an aggressive foreign policy with the intention of expanding German Lebensraum ("living space") which contributed to the start of World War II in Europe when he ordered the invasion of Poland". Xanon

Xanon, first of all could you please properly sign your posts by typing four tildes (~). Thanks.

"Hypothetical questions are a valid tool" but they shouldn't be overdone. And I do think that I did answer yours.

You say the "British did something fairly similar", but why did they sign a naval agreement with Germany then. You are selecting facts to fit your interpretation that the UK had some aggressive aim and actually wanted to wage war on Germany just for the sake of it. And I am not assigning altruistic motives to anyone, the U.K. or Germany. Altruism IMHO anyway is overrated and can be just as bad as egoism.

Your parallel with 9/11 and Iraq is of course untenable, as a) WTC and Iraq are not linked, b) the attackers were no state and hence no war could have begun. Unless you are talking about the war pitting the US and allies against international terrorism. That is not a war in the legal sense of the term (though it might involve actual war), but if you want to take it that way, the war was indeed started by the attacks, which led to the American response in Afghanistan. The war in 1939 started when Germany invaded Poland. It wasn't started by any Polish actions (e.g. alleged mistreatment of her German nationals) and not by the Gleiwitz incident that served as a pretext. It started with the invasion. When one nation's army crosses the border to another country and begins to occupy it, that is usually considered an act of war, isn't it?

On the same note, the cause of the war should not be mistaken for the beginning of the war. Why do you say that WWII should include the fighting in Poland? If you don't like hypothetical examples, here is a real life one: the plane crashing into the World Trade Center was a cause for the Iraq war, but it was Bush who declared war on Iraq. (Well, he didn't declare it officially, but you get my point.) So, who started the Iraq War? Bush did, since the plane crashing wasn't a war act performed by Iraq. Iraq, likely, had nothing to do with it. Britain was the first to declare war on Germany, Germany only responded.

"My opinion (the beginning of WWII is the beginning of fighting between the major players) is based on my understanding of the war as conflict between two camps. USA, Britain and USSR on one side, Axis on the other." - and if you see it that way, WWII didn't start until 1941, as the US was neutral until that time and the USSR well, you know. And your opinions, and your understanding don't matter, as historians see it otherwise. Ever heard of WP:NOR?

And of course, "Britain's decision to invite Poland into its camp" is your strange version of reality. There was no camp into which Poland was invited. The camp (the former Entente) sided with a threatened nation.

I guess "Germany did not declare war on Britain either. Germany merely attacked Poland. The decision to engage in war with Germany was Britain's, not Germany's." sums up your ever more bizarre postings. Please, repeat after me: Ger-ma-ny in-va-ded Po-land. Ger-ma-ny star-ted the war."

"The practices of Hitler's government were brought to public's attention only to make the public hostile to Nazis and Germany, not because those practices were actually that different from the policies Allies and USSR put in place when they could get away with it." - You sound like Carl Schmitt. But where actually did Britian set up death camps?

"Unethical" I would consider your postings, though they are definitely not "academic" in the best sense of the word, only as much as academics have often been more than willing to play the propagandist for horrible, horrible things.

"Factual accuracy will not be compromised if the events leading to WWII will be listed without statements clearly intended to distribute blame and force a certain moral view on the reader." - No, it won't be compromised in that case. But that is what the article already does. But your "compromise" tries to hide a fact - a fact already "neutralized" a bit by saying "triggered" instead of "started". We will go no further.

I think you, Xanon, had enough chances of making your case and you haven't come up with a stubstantive argument. I am asking you to desist from such practices in the future. Str1977 12:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I think that expecting supposedly intelligent people to be civil was absolutely unreasonable of me and I shouldn't have bothered with it myself. Most likely, this was inevitable, given the lack of communication culture.

• You certainly didn't answer my question.
• I have no idea what naval agreement you are talking about. Cite your sources or, preferably, post link. I definitely didn't say Britain wanted to fight Germany "just for the sake of it", you are lying.

"a) WTC and Iraq are not linked" as weren't Poland and England. "b) the attackers were no state and hence no war could have begun" except for the war against Iraq, with which, thanks to Bush administration, americans subconciously associated terrorism. "and if you see it that way, WWII didn't start until 1941, as the US was neutral until that time and the USSR well, you know." Amazingly enough, for one you have a point, but the fighting between two major players is enough to consider it the beginning for me, although there are those who disagree. "as historians see it otherwise" I assure you, I am not alone in my view on WWII. Some historians share it.

"There was no camp into which Poland was invited. The camp (the former Entente) sided with a threatened nation." The intellectual feat that you have just performed, called demagogy in common parlance, changes absolutely nothing. Whether the camp moved to Poland or Poland to the camp, it was still a voluntary decision.

• I don't know, maybe the people who you usually talk to are primitive neanderthals, or maybe you are used to people talking to you like that so you would understand, but there is no need to break up words into syllables. Of course, if that's the way you need to talk, I will be patient enough to listen. For a while. If you are unable to counter my arguments - admit it instead of humiliating yourself. There is nothing wrong with changing your point of view, when errors in your thinking have been pointed out to you.

"where actually did Britian set up death camps?" I told you, death camps were probably considered too expensive. Besides, Britain was creative enough to invent its own ways of abusing human rights and oppressing the population.

"unethical I would consider your postings" without any reason, as usual. Also, as usual, you are evading responding to my arguments.

"No, it won't be compromised in that case. But that is what the article already does. But your "compromise" tries to hide a fact - a fact already "neutralized" a bit by saying "triggered" instead of "started". We will go no further." That is not a fact. I have tried to prove that to you, and just because you are too stubborn to admit you are wrong, doesn't mean I failed. You intentionally try to make it seem like Hitler wanted a war with Britain and France, when he didn't at that time.

"I think you, Xanon, had enough chances of making your case and you haven't come up with a stubstantive argument. I am asking you to desist from such practices in the future." Sure. I won't try to persuade you anymore. You are rude and your arguments are weak. I will just change the article.Xanon 13:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Xanon, now you absolutely blew it:

• Have you ever seen the footage of Chamberlain returning from Germany after his talks with "Herr Hitler", announcing peace for our time? One of the things he mentions is the 1938 German-British naval agreement. Please, I cannot educate you on every basic fact. Go read some serious history book.
• "death camps were probably considered too expensive. Besides, Britain was creative enough to invent its own ways of abusing human rights" - with this you have now convinced me that you are indeed what I suspected above. I will not respond to your trolling anymore. Go and pester someone else. Good day, Str1977 13:59, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

• You really don't know what critical thinking is, do you? Hitler has been talking about what a peaceful guy he is all along. That means nothing.
• The naval agreement was just another concession of Brits to Germans. It's quite irellevant.
• You wouldn't happen to be British, would you? Because it appears you believe every word your politicians say. Had you lived in Germany, you would have made a perfect Nazi.
• I will change the article to reflect historical facts, rather than your cheap, opinionated propaganda as soon as I have access to it.

Without any respect what-so-ever, Xanon 21:17, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Xanon, this might be the last time I will address you, but only because:

• I had to fix your messing up the signature as well.
• To inform you that I have not only lived in Germany but have done so my entire life, except for one year. I happen to be German. But nothing is further from me than Nazism, a term of which you apparently do not understand the meaning. Anyway, it was a personal attack. You will see what comes of it. Str1977 07:23, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't a personal attack, it was a statement of fact. Get over it. At any rate, your apparent fascination with the British is annoying. If you really want to know what they were doing in India, go here: ; ; ;

OR you can just do a google search on your own. These are all a result of one, anyway. I don't really care about signing my posts. Deal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by user:Xanon (talk • contribs)

If you want to slag off the British record in India do so on relevant pages related to the British Raj. It has no place in an article on Hitler. You may just as well point out that French perpetrated the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. You are the one who seems to be pathologically obsessed by Britain, not Str1977 or anyone else here. The fact that you don't care about signing you posts indicates your lack of interest in reasonable debate. We can say that the world war began on the 3rd rather than the 1st of September (that was the date I was taught in school), but it is perfectly reasonable to say that the invasion of Poland "triggered" it. Paul B 11:43, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The British record matters in this discussion, because it proves that all the claims about WWII, which Hitler supposedly started, being fought for moral reasons are naught but hypocrisy. Indeed, I may just as well point out a number of other perpetrations by the French, the USSR and the USA. They would all be appropriate. It seems to you one way, another to me. "...indicates your lack of interest in reasonable debate" Your words suffer from a lack of logic. It does no such thing. "...it is perfectly reasonable to say that the invasion of Poland "triggered" it" The war was hardly "triggered". Britain intentionally allied itself with Poland in preparation for Germany's attack on the latter. The war resulted from deliberate actions on both sides. Using "triggered" gives a false impression to the reader. The version I offered as a compromise doesn't. So why are you reluctant to make the change? Is it because you want to imply Hitler is to blame for the war? Xanon

All he would have needed avoid a war was to not invade Poland. Quite simple really. Then again Hitler despite being a "brilliant" tactician made some extremly stupid decisions. Agathoclea 16:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that could have delayed war for a while, I suppose. Like I said - deliberate action on both sides. However, do not forget that Hitler probably thought he had no time - USSR could invade any moment. Or he might have expected France and Britain to. At any rate, what's being discussed is whether the word "triggered" should be used, not whether Hitler could have avoided the war. Xanon 22:33, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

3RR Warning given. Agathoclea 07:12, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Agathoclea, just one question. Did you resort to giving me that warning before or after you got tired of editing the article to look the way you want it to? Xanon 08:15, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It was just a courtesy, as with 6 reverts in 24 hours you were already way over the limit. Agathoclea 12:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Charismatic

Hello, Str1977. Actually, no. A person can be described as charismatic-Christ like-but I think its stretching a point too far to describe what he says or, even worse, his propaganda in such terms. It's a small point of intellectual precision, and I really do want to have to split hairs on the matter; but, as ever, say what you mean and mean what you say! White Guard 22:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

White Guard, this section began with my post of a rearrangement of the paragraph. What do you think - yes or no? Please cast your vote. As for this point, the charisma issue was addressed at length a long time ago, but not the use of charismatic in this way. My view is that charisma is a capacity that can attach to words as much to the person who utters the words - but the best way to settle the argument is by reference to the OED proper: look it up and see if charismatic can be used in this way. Onus on you.

To Str1977: bugging, rather than buggering - one is more painful than the other (so they say).--Shtove 23:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess it depends where you put the bug. Paul B 21:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I separate this from the rest, as this is serius discussion while above is merely trolling.

Guard, a person can be described as charismatic (which I wouldn't equate with Christ-like) but also the way he speaks. Not what he says or his message but the way he speaks. Str1977 10:26, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello again, Str 1977. I did in fact leave a response to this issue, but it has been edited out for some reason. Anyway, let me repeat my point: I do not wish to split hairs on the matter, or to go round in endless circles, so I accept things as they stand. White Guard 22:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate that, Guard. Str1977 09:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no section on Hitler's charisma? Maybe it wasn't important? Or am I to assume he wasn't charismatic and he manged to unite the entire country of Germany behind him by speaking like a dork and alienating germans with his poor social skills? Maybe he used just willed himself into his position as "leader of Germany". Oh wait I was wrong there's half a sentence about it in the beginning. Math is not my best subject but I believe that means that according to this article his charisma was of .01% to his life. If Satan isn't too evil to be documented as being charismatic then surely we can do Hitler too? I'm writing a damn paper on his communication techniques and you offer me nothing. Nothing! Heads will roll for this!66.118.233.213 01:07, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Prisoner 66.118.233.213 might want to tone down the sarcasm, but he does make a fair point: this is an article about the man, and charisma was key to his identity and success. There is so much written about his personal weaknesses (sex rears its ugly head), but this strength of his is not dealt with in the round.--Shtove 15:38, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that sex was ugly. And we have no reliable evidence that "sex" as such was involved in any of his "personal weaknesses" - anyway the problem with Hitler is his strengths not his weaknesses. Again, there's no reason why there should not be a discussion of his oratorial style, but discussing "charisma" as such is rather difficult to do. It tends to escape analysis. As always we have to be mindful of length. If anyone wants to create an article on his oratorical methods and personality cult, I'm sure it will be considered to be a legit subject. Paul B 16:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Editing the article

• I fixed a typo with the date in the info box at the top of the page, and I accidentally destroyed it or whatever. I'm really sorry, but I don't know how to revert. Could somebody do it for me? Again, sorry! --Riley 23:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, I fixed it. Sorry! --Riley 00:06, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• There are misspells in the "Sexual Orientation" chapter:

"psycologists" should be "psychologists". 68.188.83.18 04:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC) 29 Sep 2006

not fact

Nothing Hitler wrote should be accepted at face value surely this can not be included as fact. it's clearly opinion.

I agree with the anonymous user who stated that. The above sentence is opinion, and cannot actually be proven. I demand it be removed from the article. KFan II 02:39, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I concur and have edited accordingly, removing some questionable and also not really informative passages. Str1977 10:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

How are you able to edit the article on your own? I thought it was locked. Don't you have to send a petition somewhere for them to unlock the article? Xanon

That the article is locked only means that unregistered or new users can't make changes. --Delta Tango 11:26, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, it is "semi-protected", which means that you only can edit it after registering and waiting a few days. Str1977 11:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Certain it was His body?

Sorry to sound... naive or stupid, but the other day I was watching a program on one of the History channels, and it suggested it may not have been Hitlers corpse discovered, as he had never had a full medical examination, and due to fire damage, there wasnt much evidence to prove it was him. Just wondering if there is reference to prove me wrong (or right?) Popher 23:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Start of WWII

I would ask all editors to note that there has been an attempt redefine the outbreak of WWII, avoiding reference to Hitler's direct responsibility, contrary, I believe, to the simple facts of history and the consensus previously established on this page. I have reverted to the earlier, more accurate wording. White Guard 22:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hm, can you take a guess who did that? I can't imagine... LOL. As for consensus - there isn't one. The article should not be used to distribute blame, nor should it be used to persuade the reader to feel a certain way about Hitler. I offered to list events in chronological order so that the readers would be able to decide for themselves, but certain proponents of the Allies's propaganda have refused. They prefer to provide the reader with their biased interpretation of the facts, rather that the facts themselves. To them "proving" that Hitler was evil is more important than historical accuracy. Xanon 10:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Revisionist misinformation reversed. White Guard 22:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

You are extremely biased and obviously have no intention of fighting that. Article altered to be more historically acurate.Xanon 00:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

npov sexual orientation tag - delete section soon

I just added a NPOV tag to Adolf_Hitler#Sexual_Orientation. Are there any objections expressed to deleting this section? If not, it needs to WP:CITE more sources to create a more rounded picture. Further, WEASEL words are discouraged as they reduce clarity. Cheers, Jpe|ob 10:41, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a very common question concerning Hitler that many users of Misplaced Pages look up here. It would be very strange if this were just deleted. In addition, this section has more references than is usual in Misplaced Pages. Considering that Hitler murdered Jews and homosexuals specifically because they were Jews or homosexuals, the question of whether Hitler was either or both is of crucial biographical, psychological, historical, and cultural importance. Improve the section as much as you like, but there is absolutely no reason for deletion. --Espoo 10:50, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

There was unrelenting discussion of this some while ago. We have a separate article on Adolf Hitler's medical health which has a sub-section on sexuality. And there's an article on the book Hidden Fuhrer: Debating the Enigma of Hitler's Sexuality. Paul B 10:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

It's highly debatable whether Hitler murdered homosexuals "just because they were homosexuals". Homosexuality was illegal in most European countries at the time. Homosexuals were imprisoned in Nazi Germany for their "crime" as they were elsewhere. They were also subjected to medical intervention in other countries too, so Nazism was not radically different from the democracies in this respect. During the war convicted homosexuals were sent to concentration camps, where they experienced brutal treatment, but again you could argue that that was becasue of pervasive homophobic attitudes and the general brutality of the situation, not because the Nazis were trying to achieve a Final Solution to the Gay Problem by murdering all homosexuals. There is no evidence of any such plan. Indeed some of the reports of maltreatment concern other inmates in the camps.

The problem with this stuff is that it's very very speculative. I think we should have a brief mention of allegations concerning his sexuality, which were made from the 30s on, but have aseparate article for detailed discussion. There was a Sexuality of Hitler article, but it seems to have been deleted. Admittedly, it was rather rubbish. Paul B 11:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree it's an important issue. However, as canvassed by Paul, the article Adolf Hitler's medical health does cover sexuality. That article is the main article of the section Adolf_Hitler#Medical_health. Thus, the Adolf_Hitler#Sexual_Orientation section should be removed and its content, along with the "sexual orientation" content of the Adolf Hitler's medical health page - should be moved to Adolf_Hitler#Medical_health. Jpe|ob 11:04, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that homosexuality is only one suggestion, and a rather minority one at that. During his lifetime various theories were circulated and allegations were made, (most notoriously one by Otto Strasser). These did not involve homosexuality. but other alleged... eccentricities. So the "gay Adolf" claim is rather a latecomer and has so reason to be presented as especially significant. Paul B 11:12, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

As i already said, this is probably one of the most frequent things that Misplaced Pages users look up here, so it should definitely be at least mentioned and perhaps summarised even if it is then discussed in more detail elsewhere. In addition, there is a big difference between being sent to jail or a KZ! Not all people jailed for rational or irrational reasons were sent to KZs in the Third Reich. Considering that Hitler sent homosexuals to KZs specifically because they were homosexuals, the question of whether Hitler was a homosexual, was afraid he was a homosexual, or was perceived as perhaps being homosexual is of crucial biographical, psychological, historical, and cultural importance. --Espoo 11:21, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

During the war the concentration camps were full of "ordinary" criminals. Auschwitz had lots of prostitutes, for example! Where prisoners were put in the camps and how they were treated varied enormously. Paul B 11:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The allegations actually made against him are worth including, since they seem to have had a political purpose. But speculation about his sexual preferences is just annoying. Mere puffery.--Shtove 11:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks like some of you need to do some reading in History_of_gay_people_in_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Holocaust and Pink triangle. Homosexuals were *not* confronted with "normal" contemporary homophobia, discrimination, and incarceration in the Third Reich. It's absolutely wrong to say "Nazism was not radically different from the democracies in this respect". There was a clear program to send large numbers of homosexuals to KZs and thereby to murder them there directly or indirectly. And what may or may not be annoying to a Misplaced Pages editor is no criterium for inclusion or not. There is wide public interest and some serious research in Hitler's psychological characteristics, and these should definitely be addressed and presented in a serious article on Hitler. They can be discussed elsewhere but they should at least be mentioned here too. --Espoo 12:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I am fully familiar with the articles you refer to and with published literature on the subject. There was no "programme" to murder all homosexuals, and the very articles you mention do not say that there was. Indeed policies in different jurisdictions varied dramatically. Also, read carefully what people say, in particular the meaning of phrases like "in this respect". anti-Semitic eliminationism was specific to Nazism. The idea that homosexuality was an illness or perversion that should ideally be made to disappear was a very common view throughout Europe. Furthermore, Hitler's personal psychology does not provide good evidence concerning Nazi policies on homosexuality because, unlike with anti-Semitism, there is no good evidence that he was personally the driving force behind such policy. Paul B 13:23, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Apparently not familiar enough. Just because there *perhaps* was no plan to find and murder *all* homosexuals does not mean that there was not a very definite program and policy to persecute and kill *all* homosexuals that refused to "reform" and reproduce; and later even willingness to pretend being straight was not enough. Simple accusation was enough to be shot on the spot or to be deported. You seem to have missed these parts of those articles (for example!):

Shortly after the purge in 1934, a special division of the Gestapo was instituted to compile lists of gay individuals. In 1936, Heinrich Himmler, Chief of the SS, created the "Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion."

Gays were not initially treated in the same fashion as the Jews, however; Nazi Germany thought of German gay men as part of the "Master Race" and sought to force gay men into sexual and social conformity. Gay men who would or could not conform and feign a switch in sexual orientation were sent to concentration camps under the "Extermination Through Work" campaign.

More than one million gay German men were targeted, of whom at least 100,000 were arrested and 50,000 were serving prison terms as convicted gay men. Hundreds of European gay men living under Nazi occupation were castrated under court order. --Espoo 16:18, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

All sorts of people were treated with increasing brutality as the war progressed. No one is denying that Himmler sought to combat "homosexuality and abortion". They wanted more bouncing baby Germans. The very fact that you quote the fact that hundreds were castrated proves the very point that there was no systematic plan to murder them all. They didn't try to elimiate Judaism by castrating Jews did they? You are confusing increasingly vicious and brutal treatment, (including incarceration in camps) - which affected many groups - with systematic mass murder plans. Anyway, the central point concerns this article. You were initially claiming that there is some sort of parallelism between Hitler's hatred of Jews and of gays, implying that both derived from some deep-seated psychological motivation. I was trying to show that there is no parallelism. Homosexuality did not have the same role in party policy. Persecution was highly unsystematic, and it was mostly an exaggerated and brutalised version of attitudes - legal and social - that existed in milder forms in other countries. There is no evidence that Hitler himself was a driving force behind policy. Rather it emerged from the general ideology of racial hygiene in which numerous political and "health professionals" like Eugen Fischer were involved. Homosexuals were treated as general undesirables, as is still sadly the case today in many countries. As the war progressed attitudes simply became harsher towards any group perceived as undesirable or as weakening the war effort in some way. Paul B 16:55, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I see you just added the mention of racial hygiene, but you apparently haven't grasped what it meant. There *was* a very systematic plan to murder *all* that refused to engage in heterosex. At least all that they happened to get a hold of. Even if this wasn't as systematic as the Jewish genocide, it was still organised mass murder!

You were initially claiming that there is some sort of parallelism between Hitler's hatred of Jews and of gays, implying that both derived from some deep-seated psychological motivation. - I said nothing of the kind. I said Considering that Hitler murdered Jews and homosexuals specifically because they were Jews or homosexuals, the question of whether Hitler was either or both is of crucial biographical, psychological, historical, and cultural importance. And this: Considering that Hitler sent homosexuals to KZs specifically because they were homosexuals, the question of whether Hitler was a homosexual, was afraid he was a homosexual, or was perceived as perhaps being homosexual is of crucial biographical, psychological, historical, and cultural importance. I never said in any way that "Hitler's hatred of Jews and of gays ...derived from some deep-seated psychological motivation". I said that questions people have and allegations that they hear about Hitler's purported Jewishness or gayness have to be mentioned in this article and addressed in more detail in other articles. There is a very big logical difference here too that you're not grasping. --Espoo 17:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course I understand what it means! The fact remains that there was no plan to murder all homosexuals and you have provided no evidence at all that there was.

It is not important that Hitler didn't decide to or have time to kill all homosexuals because there is clear historical evidence that he approved and probably instigated a massive and well-planned and extensively implemented program to exterminate huge numbers of homosexuals. (And even if the numbers had been smaller, that would still not change the logic of the argument i'm presenting.) I really can't see how you were able to skip over the quotes i provided from WP without realising you're just plain wrong. I'll requote the essential parts below. But perhaps you've just seen them too often in reading or editing that other article. Then this may perhaps help you see how wrong you are in your claims about the extent of homosexual persecution and murder. --Espoo 00:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Shortly after the purge in 1934, a special division of the Gestapo was instituted to compile lists of gay individuals. In 1936, Heinrich Himmler, Chief of the SS, created the "Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion."

More than one million gay German men were targeted, of whom at least 100,000 were arrested and 50,000 were serving prison terms as convicted gay men. Hundreds of European gay men living under Nazi occupation were castrated under court order.

It was even proposed in 1940 that homosexuality should be legalised in the "rump" Poland (the part not absorbed into the Reich) in order to encourage it! The idea was that this would reduce heterosexual sex among the Poles and so undermine their popuation in comparison to the racially-superior Nordics.

This example proves the opposite of what you're trying to make it look like. Hitler considered homosexuality such a horrible plague that he decided to use it as genetic warfare. Your logic is as deficient as trying to say that troops firing diseased corpses into a besieged city would have also kept some lying around their tents because they didn't consider them a serious threat. --Espoo 00:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Your quotation from yourself proves what I said, that you are implying that there was a personal psychological reason to attack homosexuals (" was afraid he was a homosexual...").

Either you clearly have problems understanding written text or i'm not producing understandable text. Let me try with shorter, simpler sentences. I don't think Hitler was a homosexual, but that is not relevant for my job as an editor of an encyclopedia. The reason for this is that i haven't researched that enough to have any historical evidence for such a personal opinion. Due to the vast amount of scientifically researched knowledge at their disposal, historians' opinions can very well be added to Misplaced Pages. Such opinions can be added even if they clearly state that this is something they can't prove yet or ever. Such opinions of scientists are not facts but based enough on facts to be included in Misplaced Pages; they are in fact what are also called hypotheses. At the link above, you may also have discovered the following sentence: "My own feelings are that Hitler was asexual in the traditional sense and had bizarre sexual fetishes." This could be incorporated into this article into a short mention of the many wild claims and partly proven theories about Hitler's sexual orientation. I think it's a good idea that these theories and claims are dealt with in a separate article, but many users looking for that info will not think of looking there. Most users who want to look up what WP says about various claims concerning Hitler's sexuality will be surprised that this info is missing. They will search for "sexuality" or "sexual" in vain. I propose the following addition to the article:

There are numerous rumors but only very few pieces of historic evidence concerning Hitler's sexual orientation and his sexuality. For more information, see Adolf Hitler's medical health.

According to librarians, questions about Hitler's sexuality are among the questions most frequently posed to them. If we don't even have the word "sexuality" here, that makes this simply a bad article for many if not most users. In addition, if we don't have that summary, we will repeatedly find new sections added here due to even quite savvy users not realising they should edit the linked article instead.

Now perhaps you can finally understand my quotes of myself by means of the following explanations (I'll leave out mention of Jews and edit accordingly to prevent confusing two different issues): This quote Considering that Hitler murdered homosexuals specifically because they were homosexuals, the question of whether Hitler was a homosexual, was afraid he was a homosexual, or was perceived as perhaps being homosexual is of crucial biographical, psychological, historical, and cultural importance" means this:

Hitler personally authorised a policy that resulted and was supposed to result in the death and suffering of homosexuals that refused to reproduce, and later mere accusations were enough to cause deportation. That means that Hitler had people killed just because they were homosexuals or claimed to be such by others. If Hitler was a homosexual, that would play a crucial part in understanding why he authorised this mass persecution and killing. That means it would provide crucial information for understanding his biography. It would also help to understand other people in the same or similar psychological situations. (Did you see the words "if" and would?) Because this would be so crucial in understanding Hitler's mass persecution of homosexuals (which you shockingly and historically totally incorrectly equated with much milder persecution in democracies of the time!), many historians (those are scientists) have spent a lot of time in trying to find some evidence of H's attitude towards homosexuality. The fact that they haven't found much evidence and that the bits they've found seem to indicate that H wasn't gay is the result of intense scientific research, and these results should definitely be mentioned in this article on H. They can of course be summarised or even disguised by using the word "sexuality" as i proposed above and described in more detail elsewhere. I'm sure you can now parse and understand the rest of the sentence too:

If Hitler was afraid of being a homosexual, that would play a crucial role...

If Hitler was perceived by contemporaries as perhaps being homosexual, ...

I'm sure you can build equivalent sentences to understand what i was saying about historical, and cultural importance.

I really don't understand why you have to pick out individual sentences that i wrote badly or that you read sloppily. You could have easily understood what i was trying to say, especially when i rephrased it. This is a talk page, and you are forcing me to turn it into a semantics and grammar lesson. There is no way you could have misunderstood these words:

I never said in any way that "Hitler's hatred of Jews and of gays ...derived from some deep-seated psychological motivation". I said that questions people have and allegations that they hear about Hitler's purported Jewishness or gayness have to be mentioned in this article and addressed in more detail in other articles. There is a very big logical difference here too that you're not grasping.--Espoo 00:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

And yet, as we know, it was not a personal preoccupation of Hitler's. Nor was there any suggestion of it in his lifetime. We have Strasser with his "watersports" allegations and the various rumours about him and Geli Raubal, but there was no significant suggestion of homosexuality. If there was some reason to believe that Hitler was especially obsessed by homosexuality as such your argument might make some sense, but there isn't. Homosexuality was punishable by death under the Taliban, but the reasons for that are Taliban ideology. It would not tell us much to speculate that it was because Mullah Omar "was afraid he was a homosexual". Paul B 23:36, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you can now finally understand how you've been barking up the wrong tree. You simply and naively insisted on confusing my assumed opinion (which i didn't even express until now and turns out to be the opposite of what you incorrectly assumed) with my defense of the right of WP users to find reference also to nonsense in WP IF (see that word?) many users believe this nonsense may be true or just want to see what intelligent things they can answer to such nonsense. --Espoo 00:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It's difficult to know how to respond to your obsessiveness and one-dimensional thinking. This is not really the right page. It's amazing how sneering you are about alleged misunderstandings of your own statements and then so dismissive of the fact that you have expressed yourself "sloppily", as if it's evidence of stupidity to interpret ill-expressed statements in the way you think you meant them, but that you can't reasonably be expected to be clear! Also, the fact that you totally misrepresent what I say makes your own protestations hollow. I have never "shockingly and historically totally incorrectly equated with much milder persecution in democracies." I compared them, not equated them, just as you have done in this very sentence.

You compared them and declared them similar! You wrote Homosexuals were imprisoned in Nazi Germany for their "crime" as they were elsewhere. They were also subjected to medical intervention in other countries too, so Nazism was not radically different from the democracies in this respect. There is a very big difference between being put in jail and a KZ, and even if some homosexuals were mistreated by doctors in other countries, it is shocking and historically incorrect to compare these individual medical interventions with the Nazi medical experiments and the mass deportations to KZs. I presume you're referring to the fact that experiments were carried out in other countries to try to "cure" maybe dozens or hundreds of gays, but i hope you're not claiming that tens or hundreds of thousands were imprisoned in barbaric conditions, mistreated, and used for medical experiments that had nothing to do with their sexuality, as in Germany.

I will not respond (again) to the other subjects you now allude to in more or less personal attacks above; i presented arguments on those topics and you refused to answer those. My one sloppy sentence was perfectly comprehensible in the context presented and is normal colloquial English. This is a discussion page, where colloquial language is perfectly normal. It is however quite hilarious to see your attempts to project your problem of one-dimensional thinking on me. Apparently you write everything in WP from your perspective and cannot grasp the idea of writing for normal, clueless users. (We all are on most topics until we educate ourselves...)

On the main subject: You really should look at the full debate on this issue. Yes, there are many gay-rights websites which want to inisist that there was a "gay holocaust" but there are also many researchers on the subject who argue that the term is inappropriate. Rüdiger Lautmann, one of the main experts on homosexuality under the Nazis does not think that there was any genocidal campaign against homosexuality and therefore argues that the word is inappropriate. Despite your protestations you persist in trying to connect Hitler's personal sexuality to Nazi policy even though the evidence that we have suggests that Hitler was not the prime mover in attacks on homosexuals and that it was the essential nature of Nazi ideology that was decisive. Note also that Nazi anti-gay legislation was not repealled after the war, which suggests that the legislation in itself was not considered to be extreme. Also, Himmler (a totally hetro guy with several illegitimate kids) was far more significant in pursuing actual persecution than was Hitler. That's why making this supposed connection as an explanation does not work when you look at the detail rather than cloaking yourself in easy moral outrage. I don't know where you get your claim that librarians are constantly asked about books on Hitler's sexuality or that "most users" will think it is a "bad aricle" without discussion of this. The Sexuality of Adolf Hitler page is currectly a redirect. If we want to turn it into an independent page with a serious discussion of the subject, then we can do so. It's a legitimate topic. If you want to discuss in detail Nazi anti-gay policies do so on the relevant page, which is History of gays in Nazi Germany and the Holocaust. Paul B 15:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

The discussion about whether or not there was a massive campaign to find, deport to KZs, and kill homosexuals does not belong here. If you seriously doubt the contents of the article i've quoted twice (which contradict your claims and which you continue to ignore), then you should present evidence for that claim on that article's discussion page. (You apparently also don't know that the legislation was made much more severe under the Nazis and that the Nazis only used legislation as an excuse to carry out their much more extreme plans.) The only thing that is relevant here is what we should put in the article to help many users (e.g. here looking for information on Hitler's sexuality. Since no objections were voiced to my suggested addition, i will add it when i find the time. And "you persist in trying to connect Hitler's personal sexuality to Nazi policy" is ridiculous since you provide no proof of this claim and since i clearly showed that you goofed in confusing my views with those of users coming here to find an objective opinion on (incorrect!!! do you understand that word and can you see those signs and do you know what they mean?) rumors they've heard. --Espoo 00:43, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Racial hygiene

This article is missing a discussion of and even a reference to and many of the comments in the above discussion on homosexuality have completely missed the foundation of Nazi social policy, racial hygiene. It is ridiculous and sad that even the different victims are still classified in some kind of hierarchy by many of us today. The basic idea was very "simple" and wanted to simply implement social Darwinism. Anything deemed an inferior life form was sent to the concentration camps, and it is completely senseless and inhumane to claim that some victims were there more or less by accident because they belonged to a smaller group or a group whose extermination was less well organised. If they only found and sent 25 people with six fingers there and you were one of them, you'd have been shocked to read that even some harsh critics of Hitler would be saying 60 years later that your kind of victim wasn't a real victim or that there was no plan to get rid of all people with six fingers or that you weren't sent there because of your sixth finger and that this does not constitute exactly the same reason as in the case of Jews and homosexuals and other victims etc., etc. --Espoo 16:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Please feel free to add some reference to Nazi policy on racial hygiene and eugenics where you feel this is appropriate. However, you should note that not all those considered racially undesirable were dealt with in concentration camps. Mental institutions became the first places to implement Nazi racial policies. It was here that the very first gassings took place. Best wishes. White Guard 22:25, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i have known about Action T4 since my childhood and especially about the fact that this was the test not only of the extermination methods but also an attempt to help predict how the general public would react to later plans with larger and more visible (not already locked up) segments of the population. --Espoo 22:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

This article's purpose is not identifying victims and taking a moralistic stance. It is to provide an accurate historical portrayal.Xanon 20:00, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a ridiculous and preposterous "argument"; see below for comment. --Espoo 22:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Numerous people and groups who were considered to be inferior were not sent to concentration camps. Your statements are very simplistic. Read some books. Paul B 23:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

You know very well how that comment was meant. It was sloppily formulated but was explained by its context and in connection with my previous attempts to correct your historically incorrect differentiation between different victims of the policy of racial hygiene. "Anything deemed an inferior life form was sent to the concentration camps" is a colloquial way of saying "could be sent", which is made clear by the rest of the sentence "and it is completely senseless and inhumane to claim that some victims were there more or less by accident because they belonged to a smaller group or a group whose extermination was less well organised." It is no coincidence that you didn't respond to this or the other points i raised. There were massive and well-planned and extensively implemented programs to exterminate many other groups besides the Jews, and that in no way slights Jews or their suffering, on the contrary. It is also ridiculous to point out that some or many groups deemed inferior were not sent to KZs; you know very well, or should know, that most of them would have eventually also been exterminated if Hitler had stayed in power for a few more years. --Espoo 22:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Keep in mind, Espoo, that this is an article about Hitler, which will concentrate mostly on biographical issues and events that Hitler was involved in very directly. Details on Nazi philosophy and policy, WWII and the Holocaust don't really belong here, but into the respective articles. Otherwise we'd have to squeeze the whole Third Reich history into the Hitler article, since he was the initiator of pretty much everything that happened during that time. --Frescard 20:45, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, i agree, Frescard, and i never said anything that contradicts that. I'm also happy to see that despite the mostly negative comments above, you all have approved my short summary of the "reason" for the inhumane treatment of all minority and otherwise "non-normal" people approved and initiated by Hitler. There is clear evidence that this policy was both initiated and condoned and fostered by Hitler, so this is definitely a biographical issue. In an organisation as authoritarian as the NSDAP, it was impossible to implement such fundamental and far-reaching decisions without approval from the very top.

However, for some strange reason, the descriptive adjective "inhumane" for racial hygiene was removed from my contribution. Since this was done without any mention in an edit summary let alone an explanation here, i will put it back soon unless i hear some argument for that strange decision. "Inhumane" according to the New Oxford means "without compassion for misery or suffering; cruel." Even a short glimpse at the racial hygiene article should convince even someone who had never heard of that concept before that "inhumane" is a fitting and objective adjective. It is also a necessary qualifier to help readers who may not be familiar with the concept.

The adjective "inhumane" was quite correctly removed. We do not add moralising injunctions. Please read WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves. Paul B 13:36, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

And it is completely ridiculous and clearly non-objective to say that an article on Hitler should not identify his victims. No one would suggest something that preposterous for a serial killer let alone a "normal" killer, so there is obviously no reason to not even include general descriptions of what kinds of people became victims of a perpetrator of genocide. (There is obviously no room to describe large numbers of the victims individually, but an interesting idea would be to provide some way of visualising 11 million people. Most people cannot grasp even much smaller numbers. Are there videos of large memorials with names?) Due to the added simplistic admonition not to take a "moralistic stance", i suspect that Xanon was the cause of the "hidden" and unexplained removal of "inhumane". In fact, i suggest we consider the possibility of describing a few real cases of individual victims in a separate article summarised here to make this article less theoretic and thereby also more scientific. It is time to end the pseudo-scientific description of Hitler and other brutal tyrants as somehow superior to "normal" killers; this impression is caused by more or less abstract descriptions of their policies and programs. By describing the concrete human effects and goals of such policies, we can objectively show the clear difference between the sick minds behind them and normal politicians, whose policies may also cause extreme suffering, pain, and death but do not have these as their expressly declared goals. --Espoo 22:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

"...some or many groups deemed inferior were not sent to KZs... most of them would have eventually also been exterminated if Hitler had stayed in power for a few more years." That is a hypothesis which cannot be tested and should not be put forward as a fact.

That is not in the article, so you're not reasoning logically. I was using that argument here on the discussion page to make a point. In addition, there is clear historical evidence that the program to get rid of groups deemed inferior was to include more and more groups. For example, there were plans to eventually get rid of all Finns. And to put it differently, there is no historical evidence or even any hint that Hitler would have stopped getting rid of "inferior" groups once he'd murdered all Jews. More specifically, there is no reason that would indicate that he would not have dealt more rigorously with groups such as homosexuals and communists that he was only hunting down "on the side" while most of his resources (even military ones) were spent on the Jews.

"Due to the added simplistic admonition not to take a "moralistic stance", i suspect that Xanon was the cause of the "hidden" and unexplained removal of "inhumane"." I did not delete the word "inhumane", someone beat me to it. However, I am concerned that some users don't know the difference between an encyclopedia article and a church. In the church, you can preach your moral views. An encyclopedia article is place to record factual, objective information. If you want to know how dangerous preaching in an encyclopedia is, check out the Big Soviet Encyclopedia. Instead of being a store of knowledge it's a written monument of soviet-communist ideology. You are not doing Misplaced Pages a good service by forcing your moral views on its readers. Xanon 07:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it would have been simply objectively incorrect to remove it because according to the meaning of the word "racial hygiene" and the definition of the word "inhumane" in all dictionaries i know, racial hygiene was and is inhumane.

And nobody is preaching any moral views in the article; your comments shows that you want to slant the article in a direction that trivialises the murders of the victims. In many countries, your comments would be close to getting you in jail, and with good reason. --Espoo 19:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

• Clearly, you do not have even the slightest idea of what "objective" means. It means "based on facts rather than thoughts or opinions". Organized killing of members of various social groops took place, that's a fact. By calling it inhumane you express your opinion about the fact, and your opinion cannot be considered objective, even if your opinion is shared by a large number of people. The adjective carries no informative value what-so-ever and, therefore, is completely unnecessary in an encyclopedia article.
• I do want this article to be about facts. That's where we differ.
• In Nazi Germany, your comments would be close to getting you into a concentration camp. As for the quality of the reason, whether it is a good one, or not, I'll let you decide. Just shows that Nazi Germany wasn't all that different from "many countries".
• Whoever is doing it, STOP ERASING MY POSTS.

Xanon

Response to Xanon

Xanon, this is the last time i will respond to your comments because you are not only saying completely illogical things but are also obviously supportive of Nazi ideas like sending people to KZs. But it is important that your comments don't stand here unchallenged and shock future visitors. If you make any similar comments in the future, i will answer by simply adding a link to this discussion instead of responding. And in case your comments were just due to ignorance of basic things concerning national and international laws, let me point out that putting someone in jail for a crime after due legal process is from a legal point of view the exact opposite of sending someone to a KZ. But perhaps you are also ignorant of this basis of international law: KZs are against several international conventions and agreements that override all national laws. And if you continue to express such childishly veiled personal attacks as above, i will ask an administrator to ban you. But back to the article and editing:

Clearly, you have no idea what a descriptive adjective is. If "racial hygiene" is inhumane according to an objective description of "racial hygiene" and the definition of the word "inhumane" in all dictionaries, it is clearly objective and scientific to use it in talking about racial hygiene. I'm pretty sure it was not an accident but an attempt to be sly that made you claim i'd used the adjective to describe the organised killings as inhumane. That all organised killing is inhumane is so obvious that "inhumane organised killing" would be a tautology and a sign of a sick mind or of elementary school language skills. The expression "racial hygiene" on the other hand has possible positive connotations or at least associations in the minds of readers due to the positive basic meaning of the word "hygiene"; it therefore needs the addition of the descriptive adjective "inhumane".

You have not presented a single fact that is missing in the article nor presented a single non-fact that needs to be removed, thereby your comment is as illogical and childish as the rest of your posts.

There is no record in the history of any posts by anyone being erased by anyone. Sounds like you may be paranoid and need help with that medical condition. And please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. No need to write your name out. --Espoo 13:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

• Nowhere did I say that I support putting people in concentration camps in the manner it was done in Nazi Germany. You are slandering, or rather libeling, since this is written. That may have consequences.
• International laws are a joke, a fiction for the naive and ignorant. The only international law there ever was is might makes right. I'm not sure if putting people in concentration camps in Germany was illegal under German law, nor do I care. Whether the process was legal or not makes no difference what-so-ever. If it was illegal, then it just means Hitler didn't bother with passing the appropriate legislation or found it inconvinient for political reasons (such as the general population's disapproval). Why that would affect anyone's view of the process is beyond me.
• You may ask the administrator anything you want, whenever you want. However, then I will be forced to point out to the administrator your rude behavior and your attacks against me. Including this one: "Sounds like you may be paranoid and need help with that medical condition". That may result in you getting banned instead.
• Clearly, the definition wasn't objective. You might as well define blue as orange, or light as heavy. Just because it's in a dictionary, doesn't mean you don't have to use your head to see if it makes sense at all. Dictionaries are written by humans. Humans are not perfect. If you look in older dictionaries, you will find a lot of... surprising definions. Clearly, the adjective is used to disapprove of the mass killings, which you had no business doing in a wikipedia article. Besides, perhaps some of the camp guards cried thei eyes out, because they felt pity for the prisoners, you never know. Then the part "without compassion for suffering" would not be applicable.
• Clearly, inhumane is an adjective. I can't see how you can argue around that. You do know what an adjective is, right? If you don't please look it up. I'm not here to educate you about such things.
• Racial hygiene should be in quotes to indicate that the phrase is controversial. If there is a more neutral phrasing, then it should be used.
• "There is no record..." I know there isn't. There wasn't when I changed it back either. Pretty strange. Never the less, it's a fact.
• Finally, don't get so worked up about the way I sign my posts. It's really none of your business. Xanon

It's unlikely that anyone is erasing your posts without leaving a record. It's possible that you have accidentally pressed "show preview" rather than "save page". Otherwise you may not have waited long enough after clicking. Saving does not happen immediately. Paul B 15:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Paul, I'm fairly certain I pressed save. I'm not accusing anybody in particular, I'm sure most of my opponents wouldn't sink to this. Xanon

A darker shade of Green

A while back I read a "What if" article in New Scientist. A darker shade of Green. I just remembered it today, so I did a quick search of what I remembered, and it was amasing what I was able to dig up:

• Animal rights ,
• Environmentalism , , ,
• Kraft durch Freude The well-being of the working classes.
• Public health (Antismoking campaigns, asbestos restrictions, occupational health and safety standards)

I've added them to the Nazism article.

There are probably more litle known Nazi topics to dig up, but I haven't got the article anymore.

I wonder if I will dare question the roots of the "green party".... --Stor stark7 21:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The association between volkish conservatism of various kinds and early Green politics is well-known. Read Blood and Soil by Anna Bramwell.

Yeah, figures. Is it well-known amongst the Greens too?--Stor stark7 22:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Those with an interest in history, yes. Paul B 22:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes-the Wandervogel! I once saw a good picture of two of them alongside Der Führer. White Guard 23:21, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Hitler did speed 5 times a day?

I saw this bold claim on a History Channel add for a program about drugs, and was wondering if it had any merit, and if so should it be included under trivia or the relevent heading? ----Kurtas, 3 october

I'm not sure speed was used as a drug in Hitler's day. I think it was prescribed by doctors in the sixties, because it's side effects were unknown. However, he may have used other drugs; I have no information regarding that. Xanon

Actually, I looked into the wikipedia article about the drug and i found this: "Adolf Hitler received three daily IV injections of methamphetamine and steroids from his personal physician, Theodore Morell. After World War II, a massive supply of amphetamine, formerly stockpiled by the Japanese military, became available in Japan under the street name shabu (also Philopon, its tradename there.)" Xanon

Munich Soviet Republic

Why was Bavarian Soviet Republic (Munich Soviet Republic) edited out by Str1977, and also without an edit summary? --Espoo 06:10, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I see now that my edit was a mistake and wasn't one at the same time. The Munich Soviet Republic was indeed a "communist uprising" put down by the army (though Hitler's stance towards them is not that clear - we participated in the burial of Kurt Eisner for instance). However, the passage implies that the army did nothing instead of putting down uprisings. My mistake was that I thought the passage identified the 1918 revolution as creating a Soviet Republic (which I encountered much too often on WP - a very annoying form of ignorance!). My mistake was understandable enough, as the text talked about "uprisings breaking out across Germany, including Munich" - a characterisation only fitting for the 1918 revolution but not for the "communists uprisings in 1919, which occured in various places but not all over the country. I will post another version that hopefully settles my concerns. Str1977 06:53, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

picture again

As noted further up the page Camptown (talk · contribs) keeps changing to the picture from the one I understand the current consensus to favour. Comments? Agathoclea 08:36, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but an infobox usually shows the portraits of the person's head - and even preferably without a military cap. The rather blurred image of Hitler in Yugoslavia does not meet this infobox standard. The image of Hitler taken from a Mussulini photo is a compromise, until somebody uploads a better image. Why do you think the Hiler in Yugoslavia image is so great for the infobox? regards, Camptown 09:14, 6 October 2006 (UTC) - copied from my talk page Agathoclea 09:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

"Clothes make the man" - Image:Adolf Hitler in Yugoslavia crop.JPG conveys far more information than a simple head shot ever could. Similarly, consider how much less informative the infobox image HERE would be were it only a head shot. --CliffC 05:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Ive said it before say it again.. Hitler's picture should be an official type portrait picture. Not these silly awful candid pictures because certain people don't want him seen in a "good light". Every world leader on here from George Washington to Idi Amin to Joseph Stalin has an official picture. An encyclopedia uses official pictures so should this site. Not some silly battlefield candids or headshots of candid photographs. It's just silly to think if you put up an official type picture your glorifying Hitler and therefore need to put the worst pictures up. Its silly.

World War 1 sentence

This sentence in the World War 1 section seems oddly out of place...

Some scholars, including Lucy Dawidowicz, argue that an intention to mass murder Europe's Jews was fully formed in Hitler's mind, though he probably hadn't thought through how it could be done.

Is it meant to refer to his formation of the genocide being something he came upon during the first world war? Or perhaps it just got left there after many edits? MarkThomas 12:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Dawidowicz takes an extreme "intentionalist" view: that as early as 1918 or 1919 Hitler had a plan, or at least a dream, to kill all Jews if he got the chance and that this aspiration was always a Nazi aim. Paul B 13:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Chances are, he probably did. However, don't we all at one time or another at least dream that everything we don't like will disappear from this world? Never wanted all the killers and other non-minor criminals to disappear from the world? Xanon

Is that an anti-semitic remark Xanon? Anyway, I'm not disputing that he thought this or that Dawidowicz thought he thought it, just that the sentence seems a bit out of context where it is - it doesn't seem to go with the rest of the text in that para. MarkThomas 21:10, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Xanon seems to see no difference between wishing people you don't like would go away and planning to murder them all. How many of us have thought that if we became dictators we would round up every criminal and gas them all to death? On the issue of the sentence in question. I tried to integrate it. It's there because it's about Hitler's state of mind at the end of WWI. Paul B 19:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that at the end of WWI Hitler thought he would become the dictator of Germany. Therefore, he was just hoping Jews would die, not actually planning to kill them, because he knew he didn't have the means. Hitler thought Jews were evil. So he wanted all of them to get out of his sight (out of Germany), and if they didn't, he was alright with killing them. Seems perfectly logical to me. Xanon

hitler's alleged monotesticularness

Should speculation of this topic be included in the article? please see Hitler Has Only Got One Ball#Did Hitler really have only one testicle? WIZARD826 17:49, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

We have discussed this before, and the consensus is no. See Talk:Adolf_Hitler/Archive_43#Testicles. It is discussed in Adolf Hitler's medical health. Paul B 19:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of word "genocide"

The introductory passage now contains the sentence:

By then, Hitler's racial policies had culminated in the genocide of 11 million people, including about six million Jews as well as members of other groups including Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists, dissidents, members of trade unions and others that composed the other 5 million dead, in what is now known as the Holocaust.

I wonder if this is correctly worded. Usually genocide means national, ethnic or racial murder. The mass murder of JWs, Marxists, dissidents, social democrats, homosexual people, trade unionists, etc, whilst it did happen was not really genocide semantically, more a sort of political/ideological murder campaign. Also of course the figures quoted are endlessly debated and should not be conveyed as exactly precise, and finally this list does not really give the largest "murdered groups". Can I propose we reword as follows?

By then, Hitler's racial policies had culminated in the mass murder of at least 11 million people, including the deliberate genocide of about six million Jews, as well as the members of other groups including Romany people, Russian soldiers and civilians, Polish people, Communists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Social Democrats, members of trade unions, homosexuals and others that composed the other 5 million dead, in what is now known as the Holocaust.

Comments? Thanks. MarkThomas 08:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's much more appropriate. Paul B 09:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I didn't think the former wording was problematic but I don't mind distinguishing between the more general "mass murder" and the more specific "genocide". However, what about the "members of other groups" mentioned here? Are they supposed to be part of the "genocide" (fitting for Romany, Russians, Poles) or are they "merely mass murder" for a variety of reason (fitting for Communists, JWs, Social Democrats, trade unionists, homosexuals)?

One more item I just spotted: "members of trade unions" seem a bit general to me - no one was murdered for merely being a member.

User:Str1977 09:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well I don't want to get into another interminable debate about whether we can meaningfully speak of a "genocide" of, say, homosexuals. I think the the term is deeply misleading in that particular case, but suffice it so say that there is no scholarly consensus on this. The Nazis were very brutal towards the Poles, but it is very difficult to clearly separate out war-dead from other victims, or to be clear whether we can speak of an attempted "genocide" of Poles. So I think we need to err on the side of caution in wording. Paul B 12:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, we are not talking about war-dead but about those rounded up, detained and killed by the Nazi occupation of Poland. It was not genocide in the sense that all Poles were simply killed but the Nazis did aim at annihilating the elite, the intelligentsia of the Polish nation (military, academics, clergy, journalists etc.) - so in a way the Nazis wanted to kill of the Poles as a nation. And this is BTW the reply to 217's unqualified posting: most of these were not Jews or Communists. Str1977 07:45, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not that easy to separate war-dead from murder in the case of Poland, where there was mass citizen participation in, for example, the Warsaw Uprising. Killing of alleged partizans or of citizens supposed to have participated in an uprising have occured throughout history. Paul B 15:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

In some cases, like the one you mentioned, you are correct. But other cases are quite clearly not war-dead. Those rounded up after Poland's military defeat are certainly not war-dead. Str1977 16:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

You shouldn't make it too complicated. For example most of the Poles who have been killed where probably also Jews and/or communists.--217.85.75.63 12:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely not! Most of the Poles killed were not Jews or Communists, otherwise we wouldn't mention the Polish victims. Str1977 12:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

What excactly are you talking about?--217.85.79.167 13:14, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Please ignore these unsigned trolls, which are of course nonsense - millions of both Jewish and non-Jewish Poles were killed by the Nazis, some socialists and some not. Thank you for all your comments above, very sensible inter-editorial chat! I do very much agree Paul Barlow about the need for caution and was trying to be both cautious and accurate without stirring up the usual hornets. However, I do think there is a case for counting in especially Russians, Poles and Romany people as part of "genocide" since Nazi statements were made by Hitler and others that these "subhumans" needed removing, and there was of course the SS plan to empty Poland and Russia of people. The extermination of the Slavs would surely have followed that of the Jews if Russia and the Allies had not inconveniently won the war. Any other (sensible) comments? I move that we do change it, final form to be agreed by discussion. Thanks. MarkThomas 13:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

"millions of both Jewish and non-Jewish Poles were killed by the Nazis, some socialists and some not" Where did the communists go?

"and there was of course the SS plan to empty Poland and Russia of people." There were a lot of plans in history, but we're not talking about plans here, but about actions that were actually done.--DerMueller 13:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Troll from totally new user evidently created just for this argument! I'm flattered! Anyway, I am of course not saying it was only socialists that were killed in Poland and that communists were not killed. I also of course aware that they were plans. However, a great many people were killed deliberately as part of these plans in for example the General Government and in Russia, both through scorched earth policies and through the deliberate mass-killing of Polish and Russian civilians amounting to genocide. MarkThomas 14:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You don't get the point. The point is: Why were they killed, were they killed because they were Jews, communists, socialists, partisans etc. or because they were Poles? It is my understanding that most of the Poles that have been killed were killed because they were seen to fit into one or several of the first four groups I mentioned.--DerMueller 14:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

No, the Nazis organised killings of Polish civilians en-masse, for example, when they razed Warsaw. However, I agree that there would be doubt that their genocidal policies towards the Slavic nations had been commenced in practice before the war ended, as I stated above. MarkThomas 18:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I have now tried a fresh edit which attempts to take the above views into account and also to clarify what is essentially an incorrectly formulated opener at the moment on this topic. I also auto-reverted a slash-and-burn approach by one user previously - please read and think before editing this key topic which is of huge significance to millions and should not be edited on a whim! Thanks. MarkThomas 20:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Slash and burn, that's cute. There's an edit summary box, use it. --Golbez 20:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

January 30 selected anniversary

What is the note "An event in this article is a January 30 selected anniversary. (may be in HTML comment)" on the top of the page about. It contains a red link and the "MediaWiki" link is empty. Can someone please explain whether is just a left over? Str1977 09:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Fixed. --Golbez 09:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Golbez, but actually I was looking for an explanation on what this note is all about. Cheers, Str1977 12:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

So.. did you click it to see what it is? I don't think it's a leftover. I could be wrong. --Golbez 20:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Adolf Hitler

I've started an approach that may apply to Misplaced Pages's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

In addition, when I tried to read MEIN KAMPF myself, I simply had trouble figuring it all out. So I I went to the index and found every page that mentions "Jew" and put a postit on it. My red paperback had a yellow fringe on top. Then I read the marked pages as a separate book. Then I started reading MEIN KAMPF from the beginning and it all made sense. It's a great way to discuss the whole subject of Anti-Semitism as a cultural subject. Now that MEIN KAMPF is online I simply searched the whole two volumes and created a single MKJEWFILE. I wish I had realized how important Vol:Chapter was. I'd have created separate files for a folder: MEIN KAMPF JEW FILE. Each file named MK:I:1, etc. That way it would be easier to really dig into the "culture" of Germany from this aspect.

Like you I think of Alexander the Great a lot. Also Emperor Constantine as resources for current global popular culture. I learned to make the connection in 1998 when I took Appreciation of Music.

  From Britannica DVD:

The year 1804 was to see the completion of the Third Symphony, regarded by most biographers as a landmark in Beethoven's development. It is the answer to the “Heiligenstadt Testament”: a symphony on an unprecedented scale and at the same time a prodigious assertion of the human will. The work was to have been dedicated to Napoleon, one of Beethoven's heroes, but Beethoven struck out the dedication on hearing that Napoleon had taken the title of emperor. Outraged in his republican principles, he later substituted the words “for the memory of a great man.”

MLA style: "Beethoven, Ludwig, van."Encyclopædia Britannica. 2006. Encyclopædia Britannica 2006 Ultimate Reference Suite DVD 31 Oct. 2006 . -Macnietspingal, 10/31/06

Add Category

Category:German World War I people Octopus-Hands 01:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup tag

There is a great swathe of white space caused by the new style infobox and I can't get rid of it. Can someone help out? Landolitan 00:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I removed the white space. Now can you explain what exactly needs to be cleaned up? Paul B 15:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems to have been a general glitch that was effecting the presentation of userboxes in certain browsers (two other people had commented on it on the village pump before me), and it appears that it has now been resolved, so I have removed the tag. Landolitan 14:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

"Annotated Bibliography"

The page claims to link to an annotated bibliography, but in fact the "list of Hitler books" isn't annotated. Such annotations would be quite helpful, but in the meantime, shouldn't the ref be changed to just "bibliography"? --Andersonblog 01:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Night of the long knives and Hitler

I may just be an ignorant twit--I don't know what I think I'm doing venturing this knee-deep into wiki-territory like this (which is a shame it's like that), but here goes:

I honestly don't know if there's some kind of tacit haughty agreement that the History channel "is bullshit" on here--but I was watching today, and they had an hour long special on The Night of the Long Knives. Towards the end they explained how while speculative, many things suggest a shady sexual past for Hitler: For example, he was having an affair with his niece. They had had a violent argument one day, and the next morning she was found dead in her room--Hitler claimed he was out of town, but a local tavern owner confirmed that they hadn't left until past midnight. During the Night, he had the tavern owner and some of his waitresses killed.

He apparently struggled with Rohm's execution, as well--taking his name off the list several times. I only caught the last 12 minutes so unfortunately it may be a bit muddled, but it alluded to many of the killings as possibly to cover up his past in Vienna and some other town, where it's "almost certain" that he was on police record as a male prostitute. Further extrapolation places his "unique" mannerisms as derivative of the exaggerated, flamboyant homosexual style which could easily be picked up.

So, that's what I'm talkin' bout. Could be some naive "shroud of turin" that was disproved a while ago, but I'd like to know why it isn't featured more prominently.

Lockeownzj00 23:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any connection between Geli Raubal and the Night of the Long Knives.

It is unclear whether the relationship between Hitler and Geli had a sexual aspect. However, the cause of her death is quite clear that his being overprotective and also frequently absent suffocated the girl, resulting in her suicide. The same thing happened with Eva Braun, who tried to commit suicide twice (maybe staged the attempts) to get Hitler to be more careful.

Hitler's hesitation to kill Röhm (if that is indeed true, I have no idea) would be understandable given the long past.

There have indeed been measures to cover up his Vienna past, including the disappearance of his former acquaitances, but this has more to do with his having lived in a homeless asylum then with any alleged homosexuality (which is indeed highly unlikely).

It isn't - or rather they (because these are various issues without any link amongst each other) aren't featured more prominently because it is really speculative.

BTW, the Turin Shroud remains controversial and has certainly not been disproved. Str1977 09:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, it sounds like the usual tosh to me. Like Str1977 I think the suicidal tendencies of Hitler's girl-friends are easily explained by existing evidence. He did his mesmeric-number on them, made them feel special, as though they were part of his Great Mission - and then he just ignored them for long periods. It was the psychological stress of being repeatedly raised up, and then dumped, and then raised up again, and waiting for his call (while being too intimidated or enthralled to let go) that got to them. Shocking sexual fetishes are a totally improbable explanation given the evidence, but they make better TV. The gay-prostitute theory is similarly unsupported by any substantial evidence. It's almost impossible to believe that such a juicy story would not have made it into the hands of Hitler's many enemies in the 20s. BTW, we know Hitler was away at the time of Raubal's death because he got a speeding ticket while driving back after being told the news. Paul B 11:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Parody by Walter Moers

In Germany there's a disput on the Hitler-comic-parody (music-video) by W.Moers called "The Bonker" (Paradoy on Downfall (film)). The priced film (Sondermann 2006 at Frankfurt Book Fair) is a part of the third part of a trilogy on Hitler by Moers and a blockbuster on german youtbube: german, german subtitles, german, english subtitles (2), english. Interessting on how germans handle with Hitler. -- Cherubino 09:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the link - german youtube is english youtube! There's a comment following the video: "Austrians ... can be so fucking stupid". And what's with the bottle of wine? I thought he only indulged occasionally.--Shtove 19:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The translated song is not as close to the original than the subtiteled one (due to poetic license and rimes), so read the subtitles. I don't know how much alcohol flowed like water in the last days in the Führerbunker, and how much sex there was. Hitlers generals and advisors addicted to alcohol since they had not absconded yet. It's not wine, it's Chantré, a german brandy. Yes Hitler did not drink, he had a increasing aversion to meat, alc und nicotin. But as this reggae-song is a parody on the film Downfall you probably have to watch the film to understand the parody. There is of course only one youtube, but there are different favorites by "exolingual" youtubers. -- 172.179.127.167 22:08, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The Romany

Golbez said "why single out the romany":

The Romany are specifically mentioned because, unlike most of the other victims of the Holocaust (but very like the Jews), they were a distinct people, but not a nationality. Justin Eiler 16:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think the Romany are an ambiguous case, but including them just opens the door to yet another interminable list of every nationality, cultural, religious, political or sexual group victimised by the Nazis. There is also considerable dispute about how systematic Nazi murders of Romany were - partly because the population itself was not clearly documented and partly because some were excluded, though that was mainly the Sinti rather than the Roma. Paul B 16:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've not heard of any dispute that the persecution of the Romany was systematic--if you have any references, I would appreciate them. To the best of my understanding, I thought the Sinti were a sub-group of the Roma--looking at the Sinti article, it seems to indicate that they are a distinct group, while the Roma people article indicates that the Sinti are a subgroup. Any clarification on this would be appreciated, even though it's outside the scope of the Adolph Hitler article. Justin Eiler 17:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Günther Lewy's 2000 book The Nazi Persecution of the Gypsies discusses the sbject in great detail. He concludes that "however much the gypsies were persecuted there was no general programme of extermination analagous to the Final Solution for the Jews". On p.102 Lewy discusses the racial categories into which a 1936 document divided gypsy poplations:

Members of the following tribes were to be regarded as foreign gypsies: "Rom" from Hungary ("who share certain racial characteristics with Jews"), Gelderari, Lowari, Lalleri, and certain clans from the Balkans...Members of the Sinti tribe were Germans.

By 1942 there were debates about which gypsies should be sent to Auschwitz, bound up with the notion of "Aryan" as opposed to "degenerate" tendencies within the population. Even in 1943 it was argued in a report from Bormann's office that "new research has shown that among the gypsies there are racially valuable elements". (p.141). A list of gypsies who were exempt from deportation was prepared in December 1942. This included "racially pure Sinti and Lallieri Gypsies" and nine other categories, which included any gypsies who had jobs, were married to Germans, had served in the military, and various other specific reasons. In other words, as long as gypsies did not have a stereotypically "gypsy-like" itinerant lifestyle, then they were OK. This is very different from the treatment of Jews, who were doomed purely by virtue of being Jewish, no matter what jobs they had or who they were married to. Paul B 23:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. In light of this, I certainly withdraw my objections to removing the phrase Golbez removed. :) Justin Eiler 23:29, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Middle name?

Well? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 144.80.107.170 (talk • contribs) .

I've never seen any sources that indicate he has one. Justin Eiler 04:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Adolf Hitler's personal standard

Hi, I've just added merge tags to Personal standard for Adolf Hitler, Adolf Hitler's personal standard and Führerstandarte. The first two are almost identical, the third is a stub. Help from anyone with expertise in the subject is welcomed. Dr pda 23:45, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea--I'm currently working on it. Justin Eiler 00:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge completed. :) Justin Eiler 04:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Salience

Currently this article states the following:

Since the defeat of Germany in World War II, Hitler, the Nazi Party and the results of Nazism have been regarded in most of the world as synonymous with evil. Historical and cultural portrayals of Hitler in the west are, by virtually universal consensus, condemnatory.

In an encyclopedia that takes great pains to not take a particular stance or make judgments, this a pretty bold judgment. It is framed in such a way as to dodge actually making a claim about Hitler being evil, but it makes only token concession to Hitler apologists. For such a high-profile page to have a statement like that must have been the result of a great deal of argument and discussion. But I think think the reason that this statement remains is because it is, indeed, one of the most salient facts about Adolf Hitler—he is universally condemned and synonymous with evil. If you have to teach a child just one thing to know about Adolf Hitler, it's not that he was the leader of Germany during World War II, or that he was the leader of the Nazis. You would say to the child, "Hitler was a bad guy."

If I come upon this article, I should get a brief overview of who this person was and what his significance is from the introductory section. Currently, the introduction doesn't reference the fact that everyone thinks he was evil and is universally condemned. It does list a number of evil things he did, hinting to the reader that he probably wasn't a real nice guy. But why do I have to read 2/3 of the way through a 91 KB article to have the very simple fact pointed out to me? Do we really want to give our readers the impression that we think that Hitler's place in the modern conscious as a universal symbol of evil is only a ancillary aspect of his legacy? I think at least an abbreviated version of this statement should be included in the introduction. Nohat 07:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Since my suggestion drew no reply, I assumed it is uncontroversial and have added a short sentence to the end of the introduction. Nohat 06:13, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't feel very strongly about it, but according to WP:NPOV#Let_the_facts_speak_for_themselves we really shouldn't be making moralistic observations about people. Paul B 14:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

spell checker

on page 14 under The Holocaust i noticed a spelling error "Besides being gassed to death, many also died of starvation and disease while working as slave laborers" do you no have a spell checker on this site? if not you may want to impliment one so this does not happen as often.

No, there is no spell checker. But there are people who apparently have no idea that there are differences between UK and US spelling, and that there is no such word as "impliment" in the lexicons of either nation. Paul B 19:15, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

What an irritatingly pompous response this is. 86.16.223.203 19:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's what happens when you complain about spelling errors and produce them yourself. We all make such errors once in a while, so if you see one, correct it and don't make a big fuzz. Str1977 10:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Explanation of my edit in Sexuality subsection

As the claim that Hitler is homosexual is often repeated by homophobes, those of whom who advance this view rightly should be considered Holocaust revisionists, is pseudo-history, dishonest disinformation, the encyclopedia has no need to even mention it. People like Lothar Machtan and the writers of The Pink Swastika have a hidden agenda against homosexuals, alleging these things about the Nazis not because they hate Nazis but because they hate homosexuals. Ironically, by creating the "gay Nazi" myth, they are repeating the Nazi tactic of portraying Jewry as conspiratorial and evil dangers, except the group being targeted for conspiracy theories is not Jews, but homosexuals. --Revolución hablar ver 11:42, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Look, you may not like the theory, but it exists. I think it's pretty dumb too. But we can't assume that it derives from an anti-gay agenda. Contributors here have even accused people who deny the theory of being homophobic! It certainly has nothing to do with "holocaust revisionism". Paul B 12:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I must agree with what Paul wrote. Some proponents of this theory might be homophobes or (something dubbed with that word by others), while other might not. Unless someone clearly voices his views you shouldn't speculate on this. In Machtan's case I think the motive is much more commercial. To make things clear, I think that theory rubbish and don't think it deserves a lot of treatment but under the WP guidelines it deserves a brief mentioning. And it is not en par with holocaust deniers (that have only assumed the mantle of revisionism). Str1977 14:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

vandalism in article

Hi. As I see this artikle is blocked for editing. So please correct this (and propably some others) vandalisation:
"Another Theory of Hitler's Death was that he was "capped" in the face with a golden gat by two of his own officers, Erich Bartkowski, and Vonjim Kellerherich. They were actually jedi knights sent by yoda to infiltrate the Nazi army and asssassinate Hitler the King of Jews."
(it is in section "Defeat and death")

(sorry for my english

Hitler's Birth/Adoption Paperwork

As first count witness to Hitler's Birth/Adoption Paperwork as Grandson of one of Hitler's Pen-Pals (Stephen), I will recount that he went to Leitchstein Learn Yard School at age 13 Adopted from Munich with Parents Rudolf Hoess and Madalaine Florence. Birth record shows of 1885 and adopted at 1898, artcle shows birth of 1889 whats going on? I have a shoebox.Intuitionz 09:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

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