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Content conflict, redux

NOTE This discussion of User:Averette's edits began on his talk page. I copied my part of the discussion here, where it should be. Of course, he and anyone else is more than welcome to join in.

We had this exact same argument 9 1/2 years ago.. at least! (See archives). To repeat, there are sources that say that the Cuban sandwich comes from Key West, and there are sources that say it comes from Tampa. This is why the article mentions both as possibilities, with MANY references.

As for the video, I'm not sure that some random item on Vimeo is particularly reliable, especially since you're apparently arguing that it's SO good that it invalidates all other sources. But if you jump to the 9 minute mark, three people say that the sandwich comes from Tampa. Next time, try WATCHING the sourced video before you revert valid edits! (Link to video here: )

This again proves my point; the beginnings of the sandwich are lost to time, and there is evidence for both a Tampa and S. Florida origin. Like I've repeated for a decade in this case, when sources disagree, that uncertainty should be reflected in the article. (And just so you know, I'm copying my side of this discussion to the Cuban sandwich talk page, where it should be. Not liking your habit of removing warnings and discussions from here.) Zeng8r (talk) 20:34, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

One more thing: There's no need to use a photo featuring a wrapper displaying the name of particular restaurant in the infobox since there are other alternatives that cannot be construed as advertising. --Zeng8r (talk) 20:44, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Photo changed

Also there are several sources that were added, not just the video

You did not add any other sources that had not already been in the article for a very long time. There is no new information, and no reason to change the either/or origin story as it was.

I know you've only been editing here for over a dozen years, but have you gotten around to checking out the actual editing policies? Or reading the explanation above? Or the other explanations I've patiently written for you over and over many years, as seen in the talk page archive? If reliable sources conflict, all points of view should be mentioned and explained in the article. (This is the relevant policy: Misplaced Pages:These_are_not_original_research#Conflict_between_sources ) The article text has carefully followed that guideline since after the last time you tried to insert your Key West-centric POV in 2009. Since there is no new information on the subject (and there isn't likely to be), that's the way it shall remain.

You should also take a look at another policy: Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing. Your repeated POV-pushing and refusal to engage in reasonable discussion on this subject checks off a bunch of the tendentious descriptors, which is a problem. Zeng8r (talk) 10:45, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

NOTE: Since this discussion is going nowhere, I requested a third party take a look: Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Cuban_sandwich --Zeng8r (talk) 11:21, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

NOTE TO THIRD-PARTY OBSERVERS: You might think that it's silly to argue over a lunch food, and in the big scheme of things, you'd be right, of course. But the Cuban sandwich is at the center of a long-running friendly rivalry between Tampa and South Florida, so much so that an earlier content dispute in this very same article was covered in the Tampa Tribune. As with articles on all controversial topics, it's important to keep a balanced, well-sourced approach that includes all sides. That's how the article shaped up back in 2009, and that's what I'm continuing to argue for now. Zeng8r (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Tendentious editing applies to you, who is constantly trying to push your incorrect Tampa POV on the article. News flash: Tampa's cigar industry came from Key West. Key West was a flourishing port city and cigar producer many years before Ybor City was founded. Vince Ybor had his factory in Key West first, along with those Cuban sandwiches that Tampa ignorantly tries to claim originated in Ybor City for tourism purposes. Marc Averette (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Averette, I literally wrote a book on Tampa/Ybor history. Your take on that history is... let's just say "skewed". And who's this "Simon Ybor" you're referring to? Perhaps you mean Vicente Martinez-Ybor, whose life story I've taught to hundreds of students over the years? You keep demonstrating that you know less about this subject than you think you do.

But that's beside the point. As I keep saying, it doesn't matter what you think or I think; it's the sources that matter. You continue to ignore and discount and sometimes remove good sources that don't agree with your predetermined POV, which is the crux of the problem. Zeng8r (talk) 13:25, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

I haven't deleted any sources, I have been doing nothing but adding them for the last few days, unlike you who continuously revert my valid sourced edits. Marc Averette (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

You are again avoiding the central issue - the sources disagree, so all points of view should be included. For every citation that claims a Key West origin, I can find one that points to Tampa. See here and here and here, all of which I found in about two minutes of research. And those are in addition to the wide variety of published sources (books and journals) and newspaper articles quoting experts that are already cited.

For the 17,000th time - historians disagree on this issue. And when the sources disagree, that disagreement / uncertainty should be fairly reflected in the article per clear and unambiguous Wikipolicy. Zeng8r (talk) 16:31, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

You obviously can't read. The 1st link is 404 error. the 2nd is coverage of an argument between two people on a radio show, not a valid source. The 3rd states this: "In the mid-1800s, the Cuban tobacco industry emerged in Florida, where it first emerged in KEY WEST. Later, tobacco moved north to Tampa,... this marked the RISE of the Cuban sandwich. Rise does not mean it was created there. It means that it started to become popular there. Please learn how to read. Oh, and you might want to read the first comment directly below the article by Carl E. Mott III. He knows what he's talking about, unlike you. Marc Averette (talk) 17:50, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

You remind me of a song lyric - "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." The sources above are two reputable news organizations and a decent website. (I fixed the link). They're all pretty clear in suggesting a Tampa origin. And as I've said over and over, the article already contains literally dozens more good sources that suggest either a Tampa OR a Key West origin OR mention both as possibilities. (Actually, some of the ones you've just added also mention Tampa as the possible origin, yet you inexplicably claim that they prove your predetermined POV.)

This is why the article should take the same balanced approach. Accusing me of POV issues is clear projection on your part. I could be demanding that the article ONLY mention a Tampa/Ybor origin since many sources indicate that my hometown is where the Cuban sandwich was born. But since other sources disagree, the balanced approach is best according to Wikipolicy, and that's how the text should read. I'll just sit back and wait for other editors to take a look and echo my statements.--Zeng8r (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

WAIT I just noticed that you went back to your previous comment and changed your reference from "Simon" Ybor to "Vince" Ybor to make it look like you knew what you were talking about. There is no Simon Ybor, and I have never in my life seen anyone refer to Señor Vicente Martinez-Ybor as "Vince". Not even knowing the name of one of the most important people in the deep historical connection between Cuba and Florida really doesn't help your credibility in these matters. Zeng8r (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Keep it in your pants. It was a simple typo. I have no idea why I originally typed Simon. Just shows your pettiness to jump all over something so insignificant.

Your references claiming Ybor City is the home of the Cuban sandwich are meaningless if it can be established that the sandwich already existed in Key West before 1885 (before Ybor City was founded).

Dates trump other people's opinions! https://matadornetwork.com/read/cuban-sandwich-history Marc Averette (talk) 21:11, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

August 2019 repairs / re-explanation

Jeez, I took a long wikibreak and came back to a still-broken article, which I fixed this morning. The citations added to "prove" a Key West origin are either non-reliable sources, speculative, discuss Key West history but don't say anything about the Cuban sandwich appearing there in the 1800s, or say the exact opposite of what Averette claims that they say... or all of the above. And the few good sources are countered by many other good sources claiming a Tampa origin, which is why I keep returned the article to its either-or wording.

The unconstructive / purposely incorrect editing by Averette on this article really has to stop. This citation that he placed after the "1831 in Key West" claim is typical. For one, it's a blog on a food delivery website that seems to use this very Misplaced Pages article for most of its information, so it's not exactly a reliable source. Putting that aside, the page says says that the cigar industry came to Key West in 1831, which is true. But the very next sentence paraphrases the paragraph that I wrote long ago in the introduction to this article: "...it's impossible to know exactly when the Cuban sandwich made its way to Florida." Even better, the NEXT sentence reads "Legend has it that the Cuban factory workers in Tampa were in need of cheap and quick lunch options, so they started building their tried and true sandwiches," which would clearly support a Tampa origin if it was a reliable source. (It's not, which is why I removed it along with other similar non-RS citations added since June.) The blog post goes on to summarize the Tampa/Miami rivalry but makes no further mention of Key West and NEVER claims that it originated there in 1831 or in any other year. Citing an incorrect fact with a source that says exactly the opposite is not only contrary to Wikipolicy but an insult to my intelligence, as either Averette hoped that nobody would bother to click the link or he never actually read it himself. He's done the same thing MANY times over the years: type his own opinion into the article and tack on a random citation that usually does not back his claims, sometimes comically so.

Every argument I've stated and restated and re-re-re-re-stated over the past decade still stands - there is no hard evidence as to the origin of the Cubano, and reputable historians disagree in reputable sources. Accordingly, the article will reflect that difference of opinion with multiple good citations on each side. My obstinate demand does NOT indicate a lack of compromise; it's a demand TO compromise rather than give in to one person's decade-long quest to push his hometown's point of view over Misplaced Pages policy and common sense. Zeng8r (talk) 14:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

NOTE: For any third party editors/admins who happen upon this talk page, let me point out that, as seen in this talk page archive, the same user has been trying to make the same unsourced changes to this article for at least a decade. (An unregistered IP began making very similar edits in 2008.) He has a long, long history of stubbornly argumentative behavior and a habit of ignoring and removing dispute resolution notices and edit warnings from his talk page (see for just a few recent examples). and was blocked earlier this year for disruptive editing on other articles. When/if he tries to insert the same unsourced bias into this article in the future, I'm going to take this to ANI and ask for a topic ban as suggested here. Ten+ years of the same repetitively unhelpful editing is more than enough, don't you think? Zeng8r (talk) 21:21, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

• I see that this anonymous IP editor from Miami appeared today to restore Averette's version of the article. Hmmm. Zeng8r (talk) 01:37, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
• The same IP user did it again today, and also removed the warning that I placed on his talk page... just like Averette always does. Hmmm. Next time, there will be an ANI report filed with along with a checkuser request. You'd think that he'd have more constructive things to do what with a hurricane potentially bearing down on his location. Zeng8r (talk) 00:21, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Nobody knows where the hurricane is going to hit. In any case, I hope it goes over Tampa and wipes that shithole off the map.

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