Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
:::The article indicates the subject was "born female", hence the use of female-gendered pronouns seems reasonable within the context of an encyclopedic entry. The subject is, of course, free to showcase their various quixotic ideas about pronoun usage on their own website, but an article in an encyclopedia is not the place for that sort of activity.
:::The article indicates the subject was "born female", hence the use of female-gendered pronouns seems reasonable within the context of an encyclopedic entry. The subject is, of course, free to showcase their various quixotic ideas about pronoun usage on their own website, but an article in an encyclopedia is not the place for that sort of activity.
:::: Agreed, all this non-gendered BS is nothing but a damn inconvenience particularly as the English language has gendered and non-gendered pronouns for reasons that don't fit it with a person's personal choice. I find reading difficult enough as it is without being jarred by this sort of PC nonsense. ] (]) 19:11, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
:::: Agreed, all this non-gendered BS is nothing but a damn inconvenience particularly as the English language has gendered and non-gendered pronouns for reasons that don't fit it with a person's personal choice. I find reading difficult enough as it is without being jarred by this sort of PC nonsense. ] (]) 19:11, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
:::::Indeed...the gender of pronouns ought to be a matter determined exclusively by one's 46-karyotype.] (]) 04:34, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
== A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
== A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion ==
Revision as of 04:34, 3 September 2019
The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more non-binary people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Many, but not all, non-binary people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBTQ+ WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article was reviewed by member(s) of WikiProject Articles for creation. The project works to allow users to contribute quality articles and media files to the encyclopedia and track their progress as they are developed. To participate, please visit the project page for more information.Articles for creationWikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creationTemplate:WikiProject Articles for creationAfC
People have been changing the pronouns in this article to they and she back and forth, and sometimes to he. In this TEDx talk, Rain Dove states, "If there are any journalists in the audience and you're wondering, 'Oh shit, what pronoun do I use for this person?', a pronoun is just a sound for me, and all I'm listening for in that sound is positivity. So be creative. You can even call me it if you want to." Inspiring, but unfortunately not quite helpful to Wikipedians.
I find she/her just fine in this case. In addition to the above quote, these interview articles refer to Dove by female pronouns, and AFAIK Dove, though non-conforming in expression, hasn't explicitly said they identify as male or non-binary. The use of they by Rose McGowan, Dove's partner, in this statement is indeed something to consider, although she also sporadically uses it to refer to Asia Argento, whom she otherwise refers to by female pronouns throughout. At any rate, we should settle on one and be consistent. Nardog (talk) 12:23, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
This NYT article states that “Rain Dove prefers nongendered pronouns”. (In the article they're also themselves quoted referring other persons – notably Asia Argento – as ‘they’, so this might mean that they usually call every person ‘they’. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PLJ (talk • contribs) 20:35, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, that is a perfect source! It is interesting Dove was saying in 2017 there is no preferred pronoun in the TEDx talk and "I talk about a world in which we don't use 'he' or 'she' pronouns but I still find myself using them" in the Yahoo Style article (it seems like both Dove and McGowan are deliberately mixing pronouns when referring to people to subvert the connotations pronouns carry, which I'm all for—English sucks when it comes to personal pronouns), but obviously the most recent interview (NYT) must take priority. Nardog (talk) 00:30, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The article indicates the subject was "born female", hence the use of female-gendered pronouns seems reasonable within the context of an encyclopedic entry. The subject is, of course, free to showcase their various quixotic ideas about pronoun usage on their own website, but an article in an encyclopedia is not the place for that sort of activity.
Agreed, all this non-gendered BS is nothing but a damn inconvenience particularly as the English language has gendered and non-gendered pronouns for reasons that don't fit it with a person's personal choice. I find reading difficult enough as it is without being jarred by this sort of PC nonsense. Smidoid (talk) 19:11, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
I noticed Rain Dove is in both Category:People with non-binary gender identities and Category:21st-century American actresses (as opposed to its gender-neutral parent category, where e.g. Asia Kate Dillon is, and into which I would consider moving Dove). I also noticed the text of our article only says that they use "non-gendered pronouns", but not that they're non-binary. I poked through some news sources: the headline here calls Dove "non-binary" but the body and its quotes aren't that clear, and this says Dove rejects the label "gender-non-binary". This, OTOH (together with the other sources) does seem to suggest Dove does belong in Category:People with non-binary gender identities in a descriptive sense (being someone with a gender identity which is not a binary gender identity, even if not one that they formally term "non-binary"). It would probably be useful to add some prose to the article body about this, if there is sufficient sourcing. -sche (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
OK, I see the dilemma here. The Guardian article is more recent than NYT, and both are more reliable than Pink News, which has made mistakes in this area in the past. After reading the reliable third-party sources, I looked at Rain Dove's official social media for any clarifying statements. This is useful. It's very close to what is in the articles, but perhaps a bit more nuanced. As are other art pieces on there. Rain Dove is making very similar points to to the statements Leslie Feinberg made about pronouns and gender.
There are many people who share Rain Dove and Feinberg's perspective on pronouns and gender; though, as it's a more laid-back position, demanding thought, flexibility, and active participation on the part of the viewer/reader/writer, it receives less coverage due to people with this position being, well, more laid-back about it. Given Rain Dove's statements.... I think the categories are best moved up to gender-neutral. In the body text, I don't think it has to be consistent. But times when I've argued for this on other articles where the person did not have preferred pronouns, no one seemed to grasp it or accept it. So, I'd standardize to "they" unless it's in a direct quote. I think it's fine to leave gendered pronouns in quotes. Maybe anyone who wants to edit war over pronouns here can learn to relax a bit on it from this person's example? I'm going to go in and make some tweaks, per the sources and our discussion here. Best, - CorbieV☼18:41, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
