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Revision as of 13:07, 18 September 2019

The contents of the Wrongspeak page were merged into Quillette on October 7, 2018. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

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Notability

I don't believe that this meets Misplaced Pages's requirements for notability. Could someone review the matter? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.188.249.128 (talk) 20:31, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Given the breadth of linked sources you so cavalierly deleted, and the growing number of high-profile advocates of the site (supporters not even mentioned in the article include Gad Saad, Sam Harris, and Michael Shermer), I have no misgivings about applying Hitchens's razor on your non-argument here. Jg2904 (talk) 00:27, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Critique from Canadaland

Recent episode of canadaland has a critique of a Quillette article which would probably be worth including. I don't have the time to add it right now, so am referencing here for others to hopefully get to it first. -Dan Eisenberg (talk) 22:24, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

References

1. "The Aesthetics Of Rigour". CANADALAND.

Thanks. I'll tackle it either tonight or tomorrow. It will likely fit well in the reception section nested within the praise and critiques. 24.21.215.155 (talk) 03:27, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Removal of Ideology Section

Jessicapierce asked for another opinion of the removal on her talk page. While this disagreement is not yet ripe for a formal third opinion I will offer my thoughts even more informally. From comprable Candian media articles I have examined there is frequently a section that covers the overall editorial slant. I would personally suggest that the first and third paragraphs of the removed section do that well. I do not, however, feel strongly enough about it to do these changes myself and note that both Jessica and the IP are in WP:3RR territory. Hopefully there can be some sort of discussion here and mutually agreeable content can be found. If after some discussion it can't other methods of dispute resolution could be done. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:34, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

" Writing for The Guardian, Jason Wilson describes Quillette as "a website obsessed with the alleged war on free speech on campus". Writing for The Washington Post, Aaron Hanlon describes Quillette as a "magazine obsessed with the evils of 'critical theory' and postmodernism". Writing for New York's column The Daily Intelligencer Andrew Sullivan describes Quillette as "refreshingly heterodox". In a piece for Slate, Daniel Engber suggested that while some of its output was "excellent and interesting", the average Quillette story "is dogmatic, repetitious, and a bore", arguing that there was an irony in that many articles it published were critical of the alleged victim mentality among advocates of political correctness and identity politics, whilst their authors themselves saw themselves as victims of a politically correct orthodoxy, framing 'even modest harms inflicted via groupthink—e.g., dropped theater projects, flagging book sales, condemnatory tweets—as "serious adversity"' " This is so absurdly slanted. The entire section is poorly cited and extremely biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.152.133.38 (talk) 23:03, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Editorial slant is what the section should be called then. Reception should be broken out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.152.133.38 (talk) 22:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Why is there an "ideology" section in the first place? This is not common practice when contrasted with wikis for other news sources. The citations for this section are also very weak, coming mostly from opinion pieces hosted on other (unsympathetic or even competing) news sources. Folks reading a wikipedia page for a news source should be able to determine the ideology of the source themselves, not have it suggested for them by a poorly cited wikipedia section without any reasonable precedent on the wikipedia platform.

I agree that 3O or similar is premature. I have reverted the edit. This was poorly explained removal of sourced content, which is borderline vandalism. The burden is on the IP to establish consensus for these changes, but removing sourced material based on some other articles is not a great starting point. Grayfell (talk) 02:36, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

My understanding is that the burden for consensus is on those who wish to include things, not for those who wish to omit them.GPRamirez5 (talk) 23:16, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

That is not my understanding. The burden is on those who wish to change the article. The specific form of that change is not a loophole to exploit. Changes sometimes means adding new material and sometimes means removing existing material. Grayfell (talk) 23:36, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

What is your the deep justification for keeping this section, when there is no precedent for the section being a part of a news source wiki. It clearly frames the subject of the article in a specific way that is almost completely unfounded. The citations are also incredibly weak and based on opinion pieces. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.152.133.38 (talk) 22:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

This made me think about the fact that I think we all seem to misapply WP:OTHERSTUFF given WP:Some stuff exists for a reason right there on the same page Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:24, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Agreed, but it's a starting point. Grayfell (talk) 23:36, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Is the problem that this is called "ideology"? If so, I think it would behoove someone to rename it to "Political Views" or "Audience and Viewpoints" .24.21.215.155 (talk) 20:03, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

History Section

In the history section I had added https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Quillette&oldid=861928735

"She has stated that her motivation in creating Quillette was to inform readers about controversial topics which had neglected coverage in the media."

just after the first sentence.

Since this is the history section and this is a paraphrase of a direct quote (see citation as well as cited time in the video) of Claire's motivation from an interview, I don't see why this was removed. Grayfell writes in the edit history, "This is vague and promotional. Please find reliable, independent sources for this kind of puffery."

If this is removed because it's a direct interview of her and (somehow?) promotes her, in my mind that would similarly call for the removal of the citation of her twitter account, the interview with Psychology Today, the citation from Richard Dawkins's twitter account being promotional, the citation from Jordan Peterson's twitter account being promotional (he even includes a Patreon link that's embedded in the mouseover of the citation) and, although including many other sources, even the citation in The Spectator provides some direct comments from Claire. If you go through my source, you can see her sitting in a seat saying the quoted portion of my source... do I need to change my paraphrase? What am I allowed to add from an interview of the founder and what's not allowed (and why)? If this source isn't allowed, why are the above sources not removed for being promotional?

I rarely edit wikipedia and usually only when I'm spending some time learning about a topic and cross-referencing my reading/listening/viewing against wikipedia to see if it's even up-to-date on random things, so could someone help me understand what I can and can't add here as I'm taking a critical dive into Quillette? 24.21.215.155 (talk) 02:26, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Actually, Grayfell and everyone else, after rereading my argument and reevaluating the sources, I just discovered a massive Conflict of interest: source 2 by Helen Dale is written by... drumroll... A CONTRIBUTOR TO QUILLETTE! Let's at least' remove this source. Holy crap! I'm glad I added the list of contributors! https://quillette.com/2018/06/27/who-we-are/ 24.21.215.155 (talk) 02:46, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

References

1. Rubin, David; Lehmann, Claire (September 28, 2018). Free Thought, Outrage, and the Alt Right (Claire Lehmann Full Interview) (Podcast). Los Angeles: David Rubin. 07:03-05:35 00:07:03. afmxd42UNZA. Retrieved September 30, 2018. What led me to create Quillette was, um, when I was a graduate student I was involved in a lot of online discussions with academics in psychology and we had such fascinating interesting discussions that were completely unlike anything that you would see in mainstream media and I thought: firstly, there's a business opportunity here if I can bring some of these conversations to a market and, secondly, you know, people need to know that there are—there is scientific evidence on some of these topics and mainstream journalists are neglecting to, um, inform readers about some of these issues or some of this evidence.

Good point about the tweets, I've removed them. Misplaced Pages doesn't really work on precedence, it works by consensus and incremental change. No article is perfect, so instead of relying on other content in an article to justify a change, we also need to evaluate the content on its own merits.

There are, surely, too many WP:PRIMARY sources used on many articles, which probably still includes this one. To lazily copy/paste something I wrote somewhere else for a different issue: From Misplaced Pages:Identifying reliable sources: When relying on primary sources, extreme caution is advised: Wikipedians should never interpret the content of primary sources for themselves. (WP:SCHOLARSHIP); Misplaced Pages articles should be based mainly on reliable secondary sources, i.e., a document or recording that relates or discusses information originally presented elsewhere. (WP:RSPRIMARY); from Misplaced Pages:Verifiability: Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. (WP:SOURCES); from Misplaced Pages:No original research: Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. (WP:PRIMARY, emphasis in original,); and many, many more besides.

In the context of an article about a magazine, an interview with the founder of that magazine is a primary source for her own motivations. If a secondary source emphasizes or comments on this quote, we could evaluate based on that source.

As for specifics, my reason for removing the addition was because it's an arbitrary selection from a longer interview. Why that quote? The was an accommodating quote from an accommodating source (a "notoriously nonconfrontational" interviewer, no less). These kinds of sources are permissible, in some cases, but there has to be a specific reason beyond one editor finding it interesting. I do not see such a reason. The description uses too many vague terms which sound impressive but fail to provide any concrete information.

Consider a hypothetical opposite to what's being said: "She said that she started Quillette to inform readers on mundane topics which were already widely covered by other media." Hopefully, this demonstrates how superficial her statement is. Every opinion and news site claims they are covering controversy. Every such site claims they are covering things neglected by their competitors or rivals. It's empty filler which tells readers nothing they didn't already known. It does, however, sound sexy and impressive to a subset of readers who are primed to distrust "the mainstream media". Misplaced Pages isn't a platform for this kind of spin, so there needs to be a reason why things like this are included, and that reason needs to be provided by independent sources. Grayfell (talk) 04:40, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Grayfell, that makes perfect sense—especially since you've pointed out that interviewer's reputation. Additionally, as per the guidelines around the closeness of the source to the subject, now that I've finished watching the whole interview it's pretty obvious that they're part of a I-scratch-your-back, you-scratch-mine relationship. I've only ever made superficial edits in the past (grammar, spelling, fixing dead links, tiny facts, etc.) so this is my opportunity to learn wikipedia editing processes, culture, etc. I'm used to writing in a world where you are supposed to use primary sources, so this is a shift of gears for me.

Since I've examined a few of the sources already, I'm going to go through the rest of them with the same mentality. However, first I plan on confirming that they actually contain the relevant claims and will add a quote field to each citation as I examine them. 24.21.215.155 (talk) 18:41, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Conflicts of Interest

I would really like myself and others to go through the sources provided and take the time to assess whether or not the authors of articles evaluating Quillette have a conflict of interest due to being contributors to Quillette. I plan on doing this myself, but I wanted to open this up in the talk page so that when I am done people note that there's been a pattern of conflict of interest within the sources. 24.21.215.155 (talk) 19:22, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Merge Wrongspeak into Quillette

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was unanimous: proceed with a merger 24.21.215.155 (talk) 22:08, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm following this guide to propose this merger: WP:MERGEINIT

I propose that the entirety of Wrongspeak be appended to the Quillette article in its own heading. The page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time. WP:MERGEREASON 24.21.215.155 (talk) 20:06, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning for a merge. Seandevelops (talk) 05:34, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Seandevelops, I'm tempted to just do it (the guide says to be bold and go ahead, then try to reach consensus via talk if people object), however, maybe we should look through the recent edit history and try to get the attention of other editors so we can have more of this strange wikipedian concept of putative "consensus" (however amorphous a concept it seems to be in practice on this website). If you want to be bold, go ahead and do it. Otherwise I'm going to sit on it so people can review my edits, make modifications, and give feedback. I think I became a little overzealous on this page in including as much info as I could—I even made an embarrassing mistake in misunderstanding something I was quoting out of my own enthusiasm... so I'm going to hold my horses and wait. 24.21.215.155 (talk) 05:47, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Dearscrewtape, RaphaelQS, CataracticPlanets, Kirbanzo, Jessicapierce, and SpikeToronto. Hi everybody, I saw that you had all contributed significant edits in the past to Quillette's article. Would you please provide feedback on whether it is a good idea to merge Wrongspeak into this article? Also, please review, revert, rephrase, etc. any of my overzealous edits I've already made. I got a little fixated on finding info to include, but I bet I'm brushing up against the boundaries of the guidelines and I don't want to have included anything that shouldn't be in the article, misinterpreted sources, made the page somehow biased, etc. Thank you for your time,

24.21.215.155 (talk) 05:57, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Jg2904, you should chime in on this too since you created the page originally (I hope that this is the right way to send a "message" to all of you)! IDK if I should just get the attention of every editor or just the ones I see making significant contributions... but I guess that's up to me, right? Like most things on this website seem to be: interpretation (I mean, let's just improve the page).

24.21.215.155 (talk) 06:23, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support. It seems logical to merge Wrongspeak into Quillette. Thanks! — SpikeToronto 13:30, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support - this merger could also improve this article in the process, so I'm all for it. Kirbanzo (talk) 15:36, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support. I don't see a real need for Wrongspeak to have its own article - makes more sense to me to merge. Jessicapierce (talk) 18:32, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support. Seems like an economical merge to me, too. Jg2904 (talk) 09:34, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

Cool! I waited a few days. I'm going to go ahead and merge them now! Editing this page has been a great learning opportunity for me which allows me to more critically read wikipedia articles. Someone should write an essay that helps the public better understand the varying levels of objectivity, accuracy, etc. on wikipedia that is apart from pages like "criticisms of wikipedia" etc. 24.21.215.155 (talk) 22:05, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect/ambiguous Quillette Podcast

Quillette publishes both the "Wrongspeak" podcast, which can be found here: https://soundcloud.com/wrongspeak and the "Quillette Podcast", which can be found here: https://quillette.com/category/podcast/.

The issue is that the Misplaced Pages article describes the Wrongspeak podcast while the accompanying template is a mixture of both the Wrongspeak and the Quillette podcast (the episode count and producer refer to the Wrongspeak podcast while everything else seems to refer to the Quillette Podcast). I'm unfortunately uncertain about how this ought to be fixed (presumably the Quillette podcast info should be replaced by the Wrongspeak podcast info as the former seems to have little significance??) and would, therefore, appreciate a more experienced Wikipedian fixing this issue/explaining how it ought to be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DiogenesofCorinth (talk • contribs) 19:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Right-wing troll and bizarre editorial practices

One editor has indiscriminately removed content sourced to the Columbia Journalism Review, New Republic and the Independent about how Quillette published a right-wing troll's bizarre ramblings (falsely portrayed as a "study) and responded in a non-transparent way to enquiries about the publication of the troll's "study". This content was in the "reception" section, where op-eds and analyses should be OK (as long as they're published in RS, which they are in this case). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 11:28, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Let's unpack this.

The first source is Jared Holt, a journalist and left-wing activist from the People For the American Way advocacy group, it is obviously a conflict of interest when he writes about someone who is studying the intersection between left-wing activism and journalism. In this regard, the piece published in the New Republic is even worse, the writer has admitted to being included in the "study" in question. It is impossible to use them to source the fact that the author of the "study" would be an "right-wing troll". --RaphaelQS (talk) 13:38, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Do you want this attributed to the authors of the pieces? Or do you just want it whitewashed in full? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:54, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm in favor of something like that

On (date of publication) Quillette published a piece written by (author of the "study") on (subject of the "study"). This was criticised in the Columbia Journalism Review by Jared Holt, a journalist and political activist who called the author a "right-wing troll" and criticized the methodology employed. Writing for The New Republic journalist and activist Kim Kelly described what (he?she) called "an harassment campaign" targeting (him?her) and other journalists cited in "(author)'s "study".

Is this an honest assessment? --RaphaelQS (talk) 14:55, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Holt is not an activist. That's your original research. Also, your version of the text removes pretty much all criticisms, as well as Quillette's non-response to basic questions of editorial standards. Here's what a non-sanitized WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV version of the text might go:

• In May 2019, Quillette published an editorial by someone purporting to be a researcher who had allegedly found extensive ties between journalists who cover far-right activism and anti-fascists. According to a column in the Columbia Journalism Review, the author of the Quillette piece was an established right-wing troll who would later be banned by Twitter for managing multiple accounts. When Quillette was asked about how it determined whether the troll's claims were legitimate and whether the editorial was fact-checked or editorially reviewed, Quillette founding editor Claire Lehmann declined to comment. Subsequent to the publication of the Quillette article, the journalists who were mentioned in the article were harassed. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:04, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

"Holt is not an activist. That's your original research." I do not agree with that at all. Using the common definition of words is not an "original search". Being an active and public member of an advocacy group makes you an activist or else the word activist no longer has any meaning. This is relevant in this context because the "study" is precisely about activism and journalism.

I also changed a lot of little POV-pushing in your version:

In May 2019, Quillette published an editorial by  someone purporting to be a researcher   Eoin Lenihan described as an "analyst"  who had allegedly found extensive ties between journalists who cover far-right activism and anti-fascists  activists . According to  a column   journalist and activist Jared Holt writing  in the Columbia Journalism Review,  the author of the Quillette piece   Lenihan  was an  " established right-wing troll "  who would later be banned by Twitter for managing multiple accounts. When Quillette was asked about how it determined whether  the troll   Lenihan 's claims were legitimate and whether the editorial was fact-checked or editorially reviewed, Quillette founding editor Claire Lehmann she  inquired what issues Holt found with Lenihan’s "study" and  declined to comment. Subsequent to the publication of the Quillette article,  Kim Kelly claimed in a piece in The New Republic that herself/himself and others of  the journalists who were mentioned in the article were harassed.   Jonathan Kay Canadian Editor of Quillette, subsequently responded to the allegations against Quillette on both the credentials of Eoin Lenihan and the methodology employed in his "study". Holt's article in the Columbia Journalism Review was described as a "hit job" by Rachel Stoltzfoos reporter at the The Daily Caller in an article published in June 2019. 

People who are involved in an advocacy group in some capacity are not necessarily activists. If you want to describe him as such, you need to substantiate it with a reliable source. The Daily Caller is not a reliable source and should not be cited on Misplaced Pages. Also, there is no dispute that the journalists were harassed, and we do not impugn the descriptions of this harassment with WP:CLAIM. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:39, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

"People who are involved in an advocacy group in some capacity are not necessarily activists" He is literally described as a member of the advocacy group on all the biographies I could find on him. To ignore this would be dishonest, it would be to portray him as neutral and uninvolved.

"The Daily Caller is not a reliable source and should not be cited on Misplaced Pages" I'm not *citing* The Daily Caller I'm attributing statements to a reporter of the The Daily Caller, that's explicitly authorized if relevant. This is in this context.

"there is no dispute that the journalists were harassed" There is, it's a claim made by someone involved, non-neutral, and in flagrant conflict of interest. But I'm not saying we shouldn't include it in the article, just that we should indicate precisely who is making the claim and in what context, same thing that with The Daily Caller.--RaphaelQS (talk) 17:12, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

The Daily Caller should not be cited for an attributed POV. We don't just add random opinions to Misplaced Pages articles. If you want to note that Holt is a "research associate at the liberal advocacy group People for the American Way", that would be fine. Again, the harassment documented in the three RS cited is clear as day. If neo-Nazis upload a video of mass shooters, the names of the individuals mentioned in the Quillette piece and title the video "Sunset the media", that's harassment. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:35, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

"The Daily Caller should not be cited for an attributed POV." I see no reason not to do so, it's not a hill on which I want to die, but the whole relevant context is important, The Daily Caller is not acceptable as a source, but it's mainstream and relevant enough for the opinions of its published reporters to be sufficiently noteworthy to be included. The same goes for the Pravda, for example. This is not acceptable as a source, but the opinions expressed are notable. I'm not saying that the Daily Caller has the same scope or notoriety, but it's enough to be included especially on "culture war" topics.

"If you want to note that Holt is a "research associate at the liberal advocacy group People for the American Way", that would be fine." This is acceptable.

"Again, the harassment documented in the three RS cited is clear as day. If neo-Nazis upload a video of mass shooters, the names of the individuals mentioned in the Quillette piece and title the video "Sunset the media", that's harassment." Harassment is subjective by definition, I will not try to define it. I just note that in the sources only Kim Kelly claims to be harassed. Because he/she is not neutral, this statement must be attributed.--RaphaelQS (talk) 18:04, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

The CJR piece describes a harassment campaign against the journalists. It's not some personal feeling. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:07, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Let us be precise with words. A "smear campaign" isn't a "harassment campaign". Again, harassment is subjective. For example "smear campaign" is widely used by politicians against mainstream journalism, but this does not mean that they are being harassed. The only mention of "harassment" is in Kim Kelly's piece. --RaphaelQS (talk) 18:40, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

The CJR piece literally refers to "threats" against the journalists. If you want to say the journalists were threatened, that's also OK. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 18:43, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

This is acceptable. --RaphaelQS (talk) 18:49, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

• Columbia Journalism Review, at least, is definitely a reliable enough source to cover this, and the fact that they devoted an entire article to it (coupled with some coverage in other sources) means it's worth including. --Aquillion (talk) 07:05, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  • RaphaelQS the Columbia Journalism Review is a top-tier source. Your clear edit warring, combined with your excessive shouting in edit summaries and your accusations that I am part of a clique "coming" to your page isn't helping your case. You claim this is being discussed. So can you please promptly explain why you have edit warred to keep this valuable source out? Simonm223 (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

References

1. Jared Holt is a member of the People For the American Way advocacy group
2. "Right-wing publications launder an anti-journalist smear campaign". Columbia Journalism Review. Retrieved 2019-06-17.
3. Kelly, Kim (2019-06-14). "Quillette's "Antifa Journalists" List Could've Gotten Me Killed". The New Republic. ISSN 0028-6583. Retrieved 2019-06-19.
4. "Opinion: What happened when I was the target of alt-right death threats". The Independent. 2019-06-19. Retrieved 2019-06-19.

• • • I don't care about the CJR being a "top-tier source" or something THE ISSUE ISN'T ABOUT THE FACTS BUT THE BIASED PRESENTATION OF THE FACTS read the discussion. Also YES I am talking about "your clique", a group of editors with the same editing pattern and interest coming (almost) at the same time to revert to a biased version of an article IS a clique. And by the way I have NEVER claimed that this article is "my page" what the fuck are you talking about? You think you can lie openly like that without me noticing or pointing it out? I'm getting really tired of your bullshit. --RaphaelQS (talk) 13:07, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Hoax article

It recently came out that Quillette published a hoax article by “Archie Carter”, a “Queens construction worker” about the Democratic Socialists of America convention. Quillette Later retracted the article and Jacobin magazine revealed the author was actually a 24 year old from Illinois who made the whole article up to trick Quillette into publishing it. Should this be mentioned in the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:a601:ac92:6b00:cb7:e56b:68d0:b9b (talk • contribs) 01:02, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

It has a paragraph in the article now. I think the sourcing is sufficient to justify including that, yeah. --Aquillion (talk) 07:08, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

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