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If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ashleigh Barty (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Sharyn4939 (talk · contribs)
• WWGB (talk · contribs)
• Fyunck(click) (talk · contribs)
• Nigos (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Regarding the (correct) Nationality description of "Indigenous Australian". The word "Indigenous" keeps getting removed when describing her ethnicity. This is significant because Ashleigh identifies as an Aboriginal person and is recognised as such by the Aboriginal community. She is not described as an Indigenous Australian anywhere on the page - her father is - but mention is only made to her background. This is not accurate and it is completely inappropriate that non Indigenous people keep redefining the identity of an Aboriginal person. The Aboriginal community has perceived this ongoing edit war as a racist attack to attempt to obscure her Aboriginal identity. It is an example of non Indigenous people cleansing content to suit their own comfort level of race. Misplaced Pages should not be a platform governed by White Privilege, there is no room for racism here. User Nigos closed down my previous attempt at conflict resolution stating I did not provide a source - which I have done - and that accusations of racism were "borderline attack" - I'm not sure how you would describe the behaviour of non Indigenous editors in seeking to obscure a successful Aboriginal person's race except as racist. Furthermore Nigos seems to be basing stated opinion on the simple version of the page and not the comprehensive page that I referenced in the dispute - guess Nigos is using a mobile phone to make judgements to close disputes. The talk page has very clear and well articulated reasons why Ashleigh should be referred to as an Indigenous Australian and many pages of other Indigenous Australians use similar descriptive language prominently. Everyone who is coming into this discussion with an Aboriginal voice or perspective is being shut down.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page, provided link to news article which outlines how Aboriginal people see the edit war - Digital Genocide is the title of the Welcome to Country article on the subject.

How do you think we can help?

To resolve the ongoing stalemate over the use of the word "Indigenous". This edit war has been going on for months and it is not going to stop - the Aboriginal community are offended by the digital ethnic cleansing at the hands of non Indigenous editors.

Summary of dispute by WWGB

Per MOS:ETHNICITY, "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability". Barty is notable for being a top tennis player. While it is undeniable that Barty is indigenous, that is not the reason for her notability. WWGB (talk) 05:36, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Fyunck

@Fyunck: This is my first dispute, was unsure of the process of notifying you for comment. (Sharyn4939 (talk) 07:12, 6 September 2019 (UTC))

Wrong ping name. It's lucky I even saw this since you'd need to put Fyunck(click) as the name. First off, you need to follow protocol or things go south very quickly in a discussion. You make a bold edit to an article. You get reverted by someone. You make the same bold edit to the article with perhaps a better summary as to why. Someone else reverts you. You NEVER re-add it again. It's brought to talk and you try your best to convince others why your way is correct. If others disagree you can try to bring more people into the discussion with an RFC, but you don't force the change by edit warring.

As for the post here, I'm kinda confused by it. You say indigenous keeps getting removed, that we are all racists with white privilege. Well that's hogwash. Not everything goes in the first paragraph of the lead. We don't say Maria Sharapova is a Siberian Russian born tennis player. We wouldn't say someone is an Eskimo if they represent Canada. The WTA has a bio on Barty that makes no mention that she's aboriginal (or actually half aboriginal). Tennis.com Australia, same thing, nothing in the bio. Her twitter and facebook accounts, zip on aboriginal! You say there's no mention of it in the article, and that would be incorrect. The lead already says ""Barty is of Indigenous heritage and serves as the National Indigenous Tennis Ambassador for Tennis Australia." Prose also says her father is "a Ngarigo Indigenous Australian" and her mother is "the daughter of English immigrants." Later in prose we have a quote from Barty, "I'm a very proud Indigenous woman...". There is plenty there but I'm guessing you demand it be in the first sentence, not just the lead? I would disagree, and it appears so do many others. And that's where we are. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:49, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Nigos

I (mistakenly) reverted one of their edits on simplewiki for being unsourced. I closed the previous dispute on enwiki as it was made when the filer only made one edit to the talk page. Nigos (talk • Contribs) 08:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Ashleigh Barty discussion

Just to be clear I have changed the relevant section heading to "Indigenous Australian or simply Australian?" Bus stop (talk) 13:54, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I am sympathetic to the views of Sharyn4939 but I am ultimately opposed to it. In this instance we should simply follow standard practice. In the first sentence of the lede it is sufficient to just note date of birth, reason for notability, and country. Further down in the lede it does mention that she is a member of the Indigenous population of Australia. But I think this is of secondary importance to the prevailing government. It tends to be standard practice in our bio articles in the first sentence to mention the country from which the subject hails, and that would simply be Australia. That is not a slight against her identity as an Indigenous person. Bus stop (talk) 14:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

The term "Indigenous Australian" has been added in the last paragraph of the lead. That may satisfy the complainant. WWGB (talk) 07:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Possible First Statement by Volunteer

User:Sharyn4939 User:WWGB User:Fyunck(click) User:Nigos : Are you still interested in moderated discussion? If so, please respond below this line. You may optionally make a one-paragraph statement, but I will ask for statements shortly. Please do not respond to each others' statements at this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:01, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Possible First Statements by Editors

WWGB added the term to the bottom of the last paragraph of the lead. I'm fine with that and consider it settled. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:List of programs broadcast by Seoul Broadcasting System (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• CherryPie94 (talk · contribs)
• The Banner (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The issue is that I was updating red links using template:ill to help readers access the original-language Misplaced Pages to aid them in creating articles or simply read the articles if they know Korean. However, The Banner, keeps undoing my changes because "this is the English language Misplaced Pages. Not much people can read Korean here." They keep removing even the red links, which is against WP:RED, since the subject of the red links is notable and I can find lots of sources about it. Moreover, they keep claiming I have a Conflict of Interest just because I added template:ill. In addition, they tag the article with "This article contains content that is written like an advertisement" and "A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject", which is baseless. I tried reasoning with them, however, they keep coming and undoing my change and tagging the article with false tags.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I tried discussing it here but The Banner refuse to discuss the issue, provide guidelines/rules that I'm wrong in adding template:ill, and help us all reach a solution, and instead keep claiming I have a conflict of interest without discussing the main issue.

How do you think we can help?

We should reach a consensus if we are allowed to use template:ill in the English Misplaced Pages, to aid readers access info to read and create articles, or not.

Summary of dispute by The Banner

Could you please tell me where we have recently discussed this, as I am not aware of that. The Banner talk 10:01, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:List of programs broadcast by Seoul Broadcasting System discussion

• Volunteer Note - I am putting this thread on hold to permit discussion at the article talk page to resume. There was discussion at the article talk page, but it was six months ago. Resume discussion on the article talk page. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, this thread can be activated. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:13, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
• Comment - The discussion was six months ago, but the The Banner refused to discuss the main point properly and stopped replying after that. However, a couple of days ago, they went back to remove template:ill and other red links and undoing my changes, without trying to reach a solution in the talk page first. They claim it is not usefully and people can't read Korean (of course it will be not useful to them, since they are not interested in Editing Korea-related articles), however, adding template:ill shows that there is an article in Korean and it helped me and other volunteers make articles in English. ~~ CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 08:06, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Example (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Sambiswas95 (talk · contribs)
• Amaury (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Here is an article I found about an American animator named Chris Savino. At first, I read it for the sake of curiosity. However, after reading the article, I notice there are some errors that need to be fixed. Some of them are somewhat misleading and outdated. Date of birth is misinformed. There is already information about his birth outside of Misplaced Pages. All of which shows the same date. Since after Savino was fired from his job, there is still no sign of new reports about Savino's post-career life, so the years active is officially outdated. The year active should be 1991-2017 not 1991-present. Although this is considered optional instead of factual, I felt like there should be an image of Savino that needs to be displayed in this article. Savino plays an important role in the animation industry and has a history of Sexual harassment allegations, I think is important for the viewers to be aware of this man especially of what he looks like. Bethney Savino plays an important role in Savino's personal life. She was the wife of Chris Savino and later divorced him for the allegations. Despite the evidence and references, the article didn't bother to mention her name. After editing, I notice there is another editor name Amaury who disapproved my editing which I clearly understand. Every editor is just making sure there aren't any vandalism and misleading biases in the articles. However, what I don't understand is that not only he didn't explain of what reason for him revert back to the previous version, but made a report of me for disruptive editing which leads me to be warned that if I do that again I may get blocked from editing. And that is why I came to you guys.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

After being disapproved by the editor, I undo his reversion and talked to him "Please give a valid reason why you need to revert back to the previous page. There's already new and clear evidence about Chris Savino's backstory."

How do you think we can help?

As long there is a piece of new and valid evidence about Chris Savino than I'm sure references should help.

Summary of dispute by Amaury

Chris_Savino discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Location of dispute

• Talk:International Society for Krishna Consciousness#Editors reverting showing bias? (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Shiva das (talk · contribs)
• Freeknowledgecreator (talk · contribs)
• Chiswick_Chap (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I removed a paragraph at the top section where an intro is explaining the topic, the paragraph I removed is clearly a subjective opinion which is clearly meant to be prejudicial against this religious group, and also a part of the paragraph is redundant since the same thing is covered further on--and again the only reason it is there at the top is to inspire prejudice. Two people keep putting it back, which along with numerous other edits they have made shows a pattern of trying to inspire prejudice. The other dispute is a much more minor dispute and involved both of them removing a section showing some images of temples, which the person claims is too many for his or her taste, so they simply removes the entire section. They have both targeted this topic in a clear attempt to inspire prejudice.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I started a discussion on the talk page but only one person responded and only about the image removal, which the person simply decided wasn't to their liking?

How do you think we can help?

Clearly those two are trying to inspire prejudice by their editing on this topic and refuse to discuss this because it is obvious, they have made many more edits and it is clear they seek to mislead based on an unknown agenda rather than to inform. I would ask that they be removed from commenting on this page and all their edits removed.

Summary of dispute by Freeknowledgecreator

Summary of dispute by Chiswick_Chap

Talk:International Society_for_Krishna_Consciousness#Editors_reverting_showing_bias? discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Israeli settlement#Irish bill (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Selfstudier (talk · contribs)
• Icewhiz (talk · contribs)
• Banana Republic (talk · contribs)
• Tradedia (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An editor removed material. I reverted. We then had discussions on the article talk page (and on my user talk page subsequently copied over to the talk page). The editor removed the material again. I reverted again and explained I would take it to dispute resolution.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

None.

How do you think we can help?

There may in the end be several issues but at present the dispute appears to revolve around who ONUS applies to. Should the onus be on me, the editor who originally added the material, to justify keeping it in (and it stays out meanwhile) or should the onus be on the editor deleting the material to justify taking the material out (and it stays in meanwhile).

Summary of dispute by Icewhiz

Selfstudier should adhere to WP:ONUS and WP:BRD - he added material, and got reverted. As for the material - it is poorly sourced (Middle East Monitor - very not mainstream) and of little lasting significance. This is a draft bill, in a small country (Ireland) that is far from the the area or the conflict. Furthermore the bill hasn't passed - from the homepage of the bill's sponsor (a source we must resort to due to lack of coverage) - we learn it is stuck in committee. In short - this draft bill received a little bit of coverage back in Jan, and very little since, and would have a rather minute effect even if passed. QED WP:UNDUE.Icewhiz (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

moved - wrong place.Icewhiz (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:Israeli settlement#Irish_bill discussion

Statements by uninvolved editors

Statements by Banana Republic

• Seems that since the material was added on June 28 and not challenged until August 28, WP:STATUSQUO is for the material to be included until a consensus can be shown to remove it.
• If the issue is quality of the reference, and better references are available, why not replace the reference?
• As for whether or not the paragraph should be included, it seems to currently be in the wrong section. It seems that the more appropriate home for this paragraph would be under the Economy section, and under the Export to EU subsection under that.

Banana Republic (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2019 (UTC)


Icewhiz seems to be misapplying WP policies.

• First, Icewhiz claims WP:UNDUE.
  • Since there is a subsection in the article titled "Export to EU", it seems to me that any legislation reported in WP:RS impacting Export to EU would be DUE. Of course, the Misplaced Pages coverage should be much less in-depth than if the legislation were to become law. But that does not mean there should be zero mention unless the bill were to become law.
• Icewhiz then claims WP:CRYSTAL
  • Mentioning legislation does not in and of itself predict passage into law.

Banana Republic (talk) 20:41, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Statements by Tradedia

• I have to agree with the commenter above that since the material was added in June and not challenged until August, the material should stay until there is a new consensus to remove it.
• Also, I would like to comment on the content. If the bill is passed into official law, then the added material would not be undue. The material is not excessively lengthy as compared to the size of the article. An official law for the first time in an EU country would be significant. Also, once the bill is passed into official law, there would presumably be more sources in terms of quantity and quality.
• I would favor keeping the added material in the article until the bill is passed into official law. If the bill fails to pass and is abandoned, then the material could be removed. Tradedia 10:03, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Statements by ZScarpia

See also Talk:Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions# Ireland, Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill 2018 for a talkpage discussion about whether the Irish bill should be mentioned in relation to BDS. The thread cites sources which may be seen as more "mainstream". Describing the bill as not having passed is a bit misleading. It was actually passed by both houses of the Irish parliament. However, the Irish prime minister was attempting to avoid signing the bill into law by invoking a "money message" provision. The bill was passed despite opposition by the Irish government. There is a certain irony in Icewhiz's small country and mainstream source references.     ←   ZScarpia   13:07, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

First statement by volunteer

I'm willing to try to conduct moderated discussion. User:Selfstudier, User:Icewhiz - Are you ready for moderated discussion? Please read WP:DRN Rule A and follow the rules. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion unless I provide a space for the purpose. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors.

Will each editor please reply, within 36 hours, and make a one-paragraph statement as to what they think the issue is about the content of the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:57, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

First statements by editors

Yes. Note @Shrike: also became involved in the article. The problem in my mind is WP:UNDUE - draft legislation is dime a dozen, the article's topic has extensive coverage, and the draft bill got some coverage when it passed a vote - and then disappeared (to the point we need to go to the homepage of the promoter to see its status). It may be due on Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (where I did not challenge it) as one of a few 2019 events of note for BDS - but not on this article.Icewhiz (talk) 02:46, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

I had already edited the article on 3 September in line with statement by Banana Republic, that is, I moved the content to the suggested section and added additional references. One issue was whether the material should remain in while any discussion takes place as to whether the material should be included at all. That the bill is not yet final in law (it is passed in both houses of the Irish parliament, formal stages only remain) does not make the information any less notable nor can I see what else precisely would make it UNDUE. If it is not UNDUE in the BDS article, then it is certainly not UNDUE here as exports from Israeli settlements are the specific target of the legislation.Selfstudier (talk) 08:11, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

BDS DUENESS is much-much easier - as BDS is only about boycotts (of settlements or Israel in general) - the settlement article is much wider in scope. At the moment we have essentialy a single newscycle of this back in Feb 2019. This might become DUE with sustained coverage. If we were to WP:CRYSTALBALL this having more coverage (and this is a highly notable topic) - we might end up with this draft bill remaining on the page after dying a silent death in committee (or remaining on ice in committee indefinitly)).Icewhiz (talk) 18:52, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

• There is clear issue of WP:ONUS "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is upon those seeking to include disputed content." There is clearly no consensus among involved editors that its WP:DUE to include.If the law passes then we may reiterate this issue. --Shrike (talk) 09:04, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator

I think that some of this discussion is more about timing of edits and less about the final result than is necessary. The objective of this discussion is how to improve the article (or to leave it in its current state, if it is thought that it is in better shape than the proposed changes). I am not really interested in who edited what in the recent past, as much as in what we want the article to say. For the time being, the article will remain as is, stuck in the "wrong version", because the rules that I have chosen to use say not to edit the article while discussion is in progress. We do not need to discuss any temporary changes, because we are looking to a final version of the article.

Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. I will ask the questions. If you want to engage in back-and-forth discussion, please request that I provide a space for it, separate from the spaces for your statements.

Is the real question whether to refer to a bill that is being discussed in the parliament of the Republic of Ireland in the article? If so, who thinks that the bill should be mentioned, and why? Who thinks that the bill should not be mentioned, and why not? Each editor, whether an original party or another editor, should state in one paragraph what their objective is about the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:59, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

Second statements by editors

The statement currently in the article should remain, it is directly relevant to the subject matter of the article. The main argument presented for non-inclusion is that it has not yet completed all of the stages for it to become law but of itself that seems an insufficient reason for non-inclusion when one considers that the included material is notable, is limited in size and scope and clearly states that stages remain for it to become law.Selfstudier (talk) 22:23, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

• I (and I think @Shrike: on the talk/article) object to inclusion. The bill hasn't passed and even if it were to pass - would have a marginal effect (Ireland at 333 billion GDP is 1.7% of the EU's 18.8 trillion GDP. Israeli exports to Ireland overall are very small - e.g. per Irish Times - only 60 million euro total of which (settlements are 2% of the economy) - 1.2 million euro are from settlements (around 0.5% of settlement exports to the EU - which are at 230 million dollars). The current items in Israeli settlement#Export to EU (which is a tad too long as-is) have tangible effects - they are actually in force and are either EU wide or on a significant economy (e.g. UK - 2622 billion GDP - or 13.8% of the (still in) EU)). More importantly than the actual effect of this bill if it is actually passed - what we are missing is coverage to make this WP:DUE for a topic with so much coverage. Icewhiz (talk) 07:46, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

As I wrote above, if the bill is passed into official law, then the added material would not be undue. The material is not excessively lengthy as compared to the size of the article. An official law in an EU country would be significant. Also, once the bill is passed into official law, there would presumably be more sources in terms of quantity and quality. I would favor keeping the added material in the article until the bill is passed into official law. If the bill fails to pass and is abandoned, then the material could be removed. Tradedia 09:24, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

I agree with everything Tradedia wrote except the last sentence. I think the material would be notable even if the bill fails to become law. Credible efforts to boycott exports from the settlements are notable. This is basically saying that notability is not temporary. Banana Republic (talk) 17:45, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator

There are four possible ways to resolve this. We can all agree to include the material. We can all agree to exclude the material. Someone can propose a compromise wording. Or there can be a Request for Comments. So, does anyone have a proposed compromise? Will the editors who want to include the material agree to its exclusion in the interest of harmony? Will the editors who want to exclude the material agree to its inclusion in the interest of harmony? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:45, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Third statements by editors

On the article talk page I had already suggested that the editor who originally removed the material conduct an RFC if removal was desired. The editor insisted that I remove the material and that it was my responsibility to do that, which I dispute, and now we are here, in effect conducting what amounts to an RFC. As it stands there is a consensus for leaving the material in, if we can get more inputs to that de facto RFC to confirm that consensus, then that would be a good thing, would it not? Selfstudier (talk) 12:39, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

• There is no consensus to include this - but how about this - I don't think wasting community time of assessing WP:UNDUE here via a RfC is worth the time at present - particularly given the WP:ILIKEIT and WP:CRYSTALBALL arguments here (which are not soundly grounded in policy) that the bill was pass into law. So - how about we leave this in the article for now, and reassess in 3-6 months based on actual coverage in reliable sources of this. I would suggest that the current 3 sentence blurb be shortened to "The Irish Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) draft bill would prohibit in Ireland the purchase of goods and services from the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem or West Bank settlements; as of February 2019 the bill has not been enacted". Icewhiz (talk) 12:49, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I do not understand how one would apply a time limit to article content, I assume that as time passes, something or nothing will happen and editors will react accordingly. The purpose of the material is to convey an appropriate amount of information to the reader, I do not see how cutting the material as suggested is very helpful, it seems to me that the purpose in doing so is to make it appear as if the material is not notable. I had in any case intended to make amendments to clarify that the bill has passed both upper and lower houses and to indicate the stages remaining so I propose, suitably referenced (I removed the proposed penalties):

Having been agreed in full by the Upper house on 5 December 2018, and by the Dail (Ireland's lower house) on 24 January 2019, the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) bill prohibits the purchasing of any good and/or service from the Golan Heights, East Jerusalem or West Bank settlements. As of July 2019 the bill is in committee stage.Remaining Stages Selfstudier (talk) 15:17, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I am not suggesting a time-limit - merely that we reassess in 3-6 months. Arguments here so far have been based on "it's due" (without showing RS coverage) or "it's going to pass into law" (WP:CRYSTALBALL). I don't see any great harm in the article containing an WP:UNDUE short blurb for another 3-6 months - per Misplaced Pages:There is no deadline. If indeed this passes into law and if it has sufficient RS coverage in 3-6 months to meet WP:DUE in 3-6 months - that will be easier to assess. Icewhiz (talk) 15:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

You have not said whether you agree with my proposed wording. If you do, I will do the necessary and we can close this.Selfstudier (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The voting record in various Irish legislative bodies is irrelevant (being an internal Irish affair, of no consequence outside of Ireland) - so no - I do not agree. In addition - the source for "as of July 2019 the bill is in committee stage" is unclear - is this according to the bill's sponsor? That would not be a RS. Icewhiz (talk) 16:22, 12 September 2019

Then I withdraw my proposal and revert to my original position (if you click the link (remaining stages) provided above you will see that the source for the "committee stage" is the Irish government website bill tracker which shows stages completed to date and remaining stages).Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

your source is dated 24 January (not June). It shows the next stage (8) is a committee - followed by stages 9,10, and 11 - of which 9&10 seem to be two additional votes in the Dáil . Icewhiz (talk) 17:02, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

As of 22 March 2019, the bill had been passed by both houses in the Irish parliament, but the government, which opposed the bill, was dragging its feet about signing it into law: "Both the Seanad and the Dáil have passed the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill 2018. Despite this, the Government has yet to enact the legislation, wanting instead to put the Bill through a type of economic “stress test” (detailed scrutiny) before proceeding."     ←   ZScarpia   20:05, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

We have each refused the alternative wording of the other, the only option remaining should you still wish to have the material removed is an RFC.Selfstudier (talk) 17:37, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Fourth Statement by Moderator

Will each editor who favors a statement about the Irish bill provide a one-paragraph draft of what should be said, and state exactly where in the article it will be mentioned? The purpose is to determine the wording of the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:52, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Fourth Statements by Editors

Export to EU

In Ireland, the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill cleared the Upper house on 5 December 2018 and has progressed to Third StageCommittee in the Lower house following a Second Stage vote of 78 to 45 on 24 January 2019.RefRef. Although debate has focused on the Palestinian territories the bill prohibits the purchase of goods and services from any occupied territory.Ref

(References are shown as links, the suggested section is where the current version of this material is presently located).Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

The above assumes that the RFC will consider removal of the existing material, albeit that changes as above are contemplated. If that is not the case, then I do not wish to propose the altered material above and I would prefer simply to retain the material that was improperly removed in the first instance, so that in the event of no consensus, the material remains in the article. Selfstudier (talk) 21:23, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Removal as UNDUE was fit and proper. In the event of no consensus to include in a RfC - per WP:ONUS it is removed. If we do run a full RfC - the other option will be to remove. If you want to compromise on my suggestion above in round 3 (forestalling removal until we see it truly died in committee - or - passed - and RS coverage either way) - that's still ok with me.Icewhiz (talk) 05:59, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Your original removal of material in August of material in the article since June was disputed and the option was available to you to commence an RFC for removal, the usual procedure for a contested removal; instead you chose to engage in improper reverting in an attempt to enforce your POV, as has been pointed out by me and 2 other editors here. I merely wish to ensure that your behavior is not rewarded in any way. It is not an RFC for addition of material (if no consensus, material is not added) it is an RFC for maintaining the material that was originally in the article prior to your contested removal (if no consensus, material stays in). Selfstudier (talk) 11:21, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

The RfC question should be neutrally posed - e.g. "Should the article include the following passage: .....".Icewhiz (talk) 14:32, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Per Consensus "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." I expect we will follow this.Selfstudier (talk) 14:51, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Fifth Statement by Volunteer Moderator

Did you read where I said, both at statement 1 and at statement 2, not to engage in back-and-forth discussion? Did you read where I said that I was only interested in the final content of the article and not in what was edited when in the past? If you want to get this resolved, let me moderate it in accordance with my rules. Each of you may propose a draft of what you want in the final version of the article. If you don't think that anything is needed in the final version of the article at this point, then say Nothing. Each of you may provide a draft of what you want in the final version of the article. The RFC will be neutrally worded. If there is any more back-and-forth discussion, I will fail this thread, and you can resolve it yourselves, possibly with a non-neutrally worded RFC that won't resolve anything and may result in blocks. So try doing this as I say. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:20, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Fifth Statements by Editors

In Ireland, the Control of Economic Activity (Occupied Territories) Bill cleared the Upper house on 5 December 2018 and has progressed to Third StageCommittee in the Lower house following a Second Stage vote of 78 to 45 on 24 January 2019.RefRef. Although debate has focused on the Palestinian territories the bill prohibits the purchase of goods and services from any occupied territory.Ref

(References are shown as links, the suggested section is where the current version of this material is presently located). Selfstudier (talk) 22:15, 17 September 2019 (UTC) .

• Option B: Nothing. Icewhiz (talk) 07:42, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Sixth Statement by Moderator

The RFC is running. I will close this thread shortly. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Sixth Statements if Any by Editors

Your instructions for the RFC were to "Enter Yes or No with one-sentence explanations". Would it be possible to highlight this requirement? Editor Icewhiz has written something like 10 sentences. Or, since I have not replied yet, may I simply respond in kind? Selfstudier (talk) 11:30, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

I assume you are busy, not to worry, I'll remind people of your instructions myself.Selfstudier (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:T. S. Wiley (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• WLU (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

articles about T.S. Wiley and separately the Wiley Protocol are full of errors and deliberate deletion of corrections. That T.S. Wiley has a college degree was DELETED. The description of the protocol as "potentially dangerous" is ten years old and it has proven not to be. I've attempted to add her articles in peer-reviewed journals to dispute that she "lacks qualification" but they get deleted. I've posted all of these on the Talk pages to no avail.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Both articles are out of date and incorrect and biased. At the very least, they should be updated with current information like her degree, academic publications and third-party experience with those who use the Wiley Protocol, some for 15 years

How do you think we can help?

Since I'm COI, it would be better to have a third-party work with the editor to fix these misleading and obsolete pages. For example, there is a report by a Rosenthal depicting the Wiley Protocol as unethical. It is full of errors and attempts by others to point that out have been refused.

Summary of dispute by WLU

Talk:T. S._Wiley discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• User talk:Koavf (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Koavf (talk · contribs)
• Richhoncho (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Under what circumstances should redirects have WikiProject tags? Do certain types of redirects merit them and others don't? Can they be paired with templates like {{Talkpage of a redirect}} (e.g. see Talk:Spin the Bottle (Juliana Hatfield song))

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Talk page discussion (at User talk:Koavf), edit summaries, a post at WP:3RR board. I cannot find any centralized discussion of this or a best practice anywhere and have solicited it from others with no results.

How do you think we can help?

The best case would be to have a uniform policy that shows a strong community preference (e.g. "All talk pages should have the tags associated with their targets" or "Only apply tags to redirects when the WikiProject explicitly asks for them" or "Only tag the talk pages of redirects with possibilities")

Summary of dispute by Richhoncho

The complainant failed to give the link for the edit warring which was closed with “This is dumb. How about just redirecting the talk page like we do for all other redirects? In any case, No violation ‘ by Bradv.

The nub of the discussion is ‘should a redirect, which is duplicated and fails WP:Title be tagged as belonging to a project. I say, no, not relevant, Koavf wants to argue ‘yes’

In my edits I have tried to find alternative solutions including redirecting the talkpape to the relevant talkpage. Koavf reverted every edit including my added assessment to his project tag!

I have searched and checked 30/40 entries in the Category:Avoided double redirects and none of those I saw the Talkpages were either blank or redirects. Some project tags had been removed.

I have suggested to Kaovf if he feels this is an important matter then he should take it to an appropriate forum for a discussion where other editors can comment and gain community consensus, which we could both follow, rather than an endless discussion on his talkpage. He doesn’t want to do this, he’d rather keep arguing and reverting me.

All this is visible at [https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Koavf#Talk:Spin_the_Bottle_(Juliana_Hatfield_song), Talk:Spin the Bottle (Juliana Hatfield song) and Talk:So. Central Rain (I’m Sorry)

Yes, I know it is a pointless and useless argument. If I didn’t think I was going back over the same ground in 6 months/a years’ time, I would have dropped it and not bothered to start another discussion with Koavf. --Richhoncho (talk) 22:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

User talk:Koavf discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:List of American Horror Story episodes (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Radiphus (talk · contribs)
• Alex 21 (talk · contribs)
• Esuka (talk · contribs)
• TedEdwards (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

An editor with a 1366x768 screen resolution reduced the width of the graph located at List of American Horror Story episodes#Ratings from 1138 to 1100 pixels, in order to make a horizontal scrollbar disappear. This however, disrupted the spacing between the bars, it made it inconsistent and hard for me to read it. They insisted that the bars are "still perfectly visible", even though i kept repeating that it's hard for me to distinguish from one another and that the inconsistent spacing between bars is something uncommon amongst professional/published sources. Another editor restored the first user's version of the graph saying that it "reads fine" to them, while another editor said that the "change to fix the issue was miniscule". Since then, two other editors have tried fixing the spacing between the bars, as they obviously noticed the same problem as i did, but they got reverted from said editors. I wonder if consensus has actually been reached in the talk page, and if accessibility issues is something negotiable.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have notified WikiProject Accessibility about the ongoing discussion.

How do you think we can help?

I request that you examine the arguements that have been presented so far in the ongoing discussion and help determine which version of the graph meets encyclopedic standards.

Summary of dispute by Alex 21

The filing editor initially began their edit-war by reverting my change to the graph width, which changed the width by a mere 38px to remove an unnecessary scroll bar that did nothing to improve the listed article; over such a minor issue, the edit-war seems to have been started solely to pick a fight. They automatically did not AGF by assuming that it did not even exist (while it may not have on their editor, multiple editors have confirmed it does on theirs) and reverted the change multiple times, and after a back-and-forth on the talk page, other un-involved editors stepped in to restore and support the change, and a consensus was formed for it. As far as I can tell, the only reason to have the bars at an even width is to make it look nice, and, in my terms, "pretty", an argument that the filing editor turned around and used on my as an my apparent reason for removing the scrollbar. Another un-involved editor has recently tweaked the width further and I reverted them, informing them of the discussion and consensus on the talk page, but now the filing editor has continued their edit war by restoring the new change and returned to the talk page against the change, with slurs towards myself, a clear and direct personal attack. These are not the actions of an editor here to build an encyclopedia, or to find a resolution to this dispute, or to work with collaboratively with editors. -- /Alex/₂₁ 13:12, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Esuka

I'll only say this once, if you want more from me it simply isn't going to happen. I restored the edit by Alex as I had the same issue as him and felt that it was a justified fix to the page. Please also forgive my tone here but I find it ridiculous that an editor who has clearly got hurt feelings about being reverted has made such a big deal over nothing. Just to conclude, that IP editor I also reverted had one edit to his or her name and that edit was to the ratings graph. That to me is highly suspicious as I reaaaaally doubt a random person who has never edited a Misplaced Pages page before would know about graphs or how to change them. What are the odds of that huh? More so that the IP editor just happened to edit when this little disagreement was going on. I'm not one to throw accusations but read between the lines.

Just to double confirm my point, I refuse to be drawn into this nonsensical dispute and if you want to sanction me for refusal so be it. You have my statement and if thats not enough, so be it. I don't edit Misplaced Pages to deal with hurt feelings because someone is upset about being reverted. Thanks. Esuka (talk) 18:31, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by TedEdwards

As a user who evidently has a larger screen resolution than Alex 21 and Esuka, I am not affected by the width of the graph. However, as Alex provided clear evidence, I believe there is a problem. I looked at the graph after I became aware of the discussion, and I suppose now the bars are closer together (in slight contrast with my earlier reply, where I implied I didn't notice a difference), but I am not suddenly struggling the read the graph more. And also, if Radiphus is claiming they are stuggling to read the graph, surely Alex and Esuka would be struggling more, considering they have lower screen resolutions? Neither of them is claiming they can't read the graph, so I stand by a earlier comment that Radiphus is picking a fight against nothing. --TedEdwards 23:07, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Talk:List of American Horror Story episodes discussion

• I've read the talk page, and frankly, the conduct has all round been pretty atrocious. Slinging references to policy pages about each others behaviour is not helpful, especially when most of you are guilty of poor conduct. I don't see an accessibility issue caused here by reducing the table by 38 pixels, which is an insignificant change and I would encourage the original poster to drop the matter and move on. (I personally use a 2k display and I see everything in the table just fine). Steven Crossin 08:59, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I have nothing else to say, except one thing. Esuka, please know that you are a complete idiot. Not trying to offend you, just reading between the lines. The IP that tried to fix the graph width was from Australia (i pointed this out in the article's talk page) and i am from Greece. For all i know, it could be you that logged out and then reverted yourself to make me look bad. I am very disappointed at the way this has been handled and the indifference to readability issues. Noone has commented so far on how uncommon the inconsistent spacing is amongst published sources. Perhaps i should have also notified WikiProject Usability that concerns itself with the Visual appearance of Misplaced Pages; making it 'easy on the eyes', and standardized, but i don't have the energy nor the time to continue dealing with this issue. Just to prove that this an actual problem for me (i shouldn't have to do that), i would like to note that i am the one that wrote the code on Module:Television ratings graph, so that there is always an automatically adjusted 2px space between the bars (see first and second edit), and i have also created Category:Articles with television ratings graphs that use the width parameter to keep an eye on that, which is how i was notified about Alex 21's change to the template. I am really starting to hate this place. Radiphus (talk) 11:53, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I have striked the uncivil comment made towards another editor. Conduct like this is not acceptable. Steven Crossin 12:08, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Further personal attacks and name-calling. Disappointing. This is not the place for that; that is, DRN or Misplaced Pages in general. -- /Alex/₂₁ 12:09, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Alex 21 - I think what set Radiphus off (as well as this discussion in general) and in a heated direction was that Radiphus interpreted your initial comment (as well as many of your responses) there as chippy, snarky, and with a negative demeanor and conduct toward his ideas and thoughts, which eventually had him/her doing it in return to you. Things obviously went further and further from there, and I think that you both just need to clarify some confusion in that regard, apologize for any confusion and where comments were given or interpreted negatively, and work together positively from there. Nobody should be calling another editor an "idiot", and we should make sure that any comments we make don't give the impression that their input or idea is stupid or assume bad faith on their part. Use your words, not your voice. It's the rain that grows flowers and trees, not the thunder. ;-) ~Oshwah~ 12:41, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I'm disappointed to see that Radiphus has retired and did so in such a fashion. I feel that the discussion on the article talk page could've overall been started and handled much better than it was. The matter could've been discussed and resolved peacefully had at least one of the users involved just took a moment to try and calm things down and offer to start things over and on the right foot with one another, and Radiphus would still be here. I'm not implying or casting blame on anybody at all; I'm simply saying that heated discussions and incivility by those involved are a group effort, and they can easily be avoided. That being said, I will say that the incivility by Radiphus was not okay in any regard, and it's unfortunate to see discussions resort to such conduct. Incivility only makes things worse, and when someone resorts to violating that policy, they've stopped putting the project first at that moment. It's really too bad to see that this happened... ~Oshwah~ 12:47, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, I did find his comments chippy, snarky, and with a negative demeanor and conduct toward my ideas and thoughts. Well said. "Gain a consensus" for a width change of 38px to remove a scrollbar that only one editor disagrees against? Why? What did he want me to do, hold an RFC for such a trivial, minor edit? It was my initial edit (yes, I was the one who made the initial edit) that he decided was faked and that he needed to edit-war against instead of just asking me why I made it. I frown heavily upon such behaviour. -- /Alex/₂₁ 12:50, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

In response to the second edit, his over-reaction is not the fault of the other editors who took place in the discussion. This is his own decision, and I wish him all the best in whatever he decides to do next. -- /Alex/₂₁ 12:51, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Alex 21 - I agree, and I edit conflicted with you while I was adding clarification to my thoughts to my follow-up comment above. I apologize if it initially implied a cast of blame upon anyone regarding the cause of Radiphus' retirement. I was absolutely not trying to do such a thing. ~Oshwah~ 12:56, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Exactly, and thankyou. I didn't want to comment on this issue beyond my initial statement but I'm surprised he has resorted to personal attacks. Which further reinforces your earlier point. I also just want to say and I forgot to say this earlier but I am happy to abide by what decisions are reached here by the admin or volunteers. If you believe that Radiphus is correct I won't revert anyone readjusting the graphs further. Esuka (talk) 12:32, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Radiphus has been warned about conduct (but the same warning applies to everyone here). They've since retired from Misplaced Pages. That said, I was disappointed by the talk page discussion overall and would recommend everyone considers how they interact with each other in future. I've made my comments on the content question here, I feel the status quo is fine and consider this discussion closed. Steven Crossin 12:40, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Song Thang massacre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Deogyusan (talk · contribs)
• Mztourist (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Removal of a description from a source, as another user had characterized the material as a "generalization" made by an author and removed it. Concern over ability to contextualize content. WP:BRR and WP:2R had started. Edit in question is here and here

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Engaging in WP:BRD

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Whether this decision to edit falls under WP:OR. Third party comments on this edit.

Summary of dispute by Mztourist

I have opened an SPI here: Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/A bicyclette as I believe that Deogyusan is a sock of A bicyclette who pushed a particular POV regarding the Vietnam War and particularly real and alleged massacres. Song Thang massacre was a page originally created by A bicyclette which Deogyusan has somehow come upon today in their 2nd burst of activity since opening their account. A bicyclette used many of the allegations made by Nick Turse in Kill Anything the Moves to create and/or add to various pages, many of which Deogyusan has also edited today. The "description" that Deogyusan wishes to retain comes from Turse's book and is a generalization made by Turse about resettlement areas, rather than a specific comment about a safe zone that the Song Thang villagers were asked to move to and so this is a POV insertion.Mztourist (talk) 08:54, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I have not used or made allegations, I reverted unfairly justified removal of content, as the user is engaging in poorly reasoned edits and contributing original research. None of my content adds anything as it only restores deleted content from the wikipage the user edited. I am making sure fair process is followed due to the user's significant POV editing on this subject and the user has an unusual history of reporting multiple edits to the same pages as sockpuppets. Deogyusan (talk) 10:21, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Song Thang massacre discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.