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Revision as of 20:58, 13 December 2019 edit7&6=thirteen (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers152,696 edits →Livestock guardian dog and Mountain dog: reply← Previous edit Revision as of 17:29, 15 December 2019 edit undoDream Focus (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers39,009 edits →Merger proposalTag: 2017 wikitext editorNext edit →
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*'''Oppose''' - The Mountain Dog page is supported with RS and we keep pages such as this as a service to our readers. ] (]) 02:55, 8 December 2019 (UTC) *'''Oppose''' - The Mountain Dog page is supported with RS and we keep pages such as this as a service to our readers. ] (]) 02:55, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
::Can you point to any of these supporting RS? ] (]) 03:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC). ::Can you point to any of these supporting RS? ] (]) 03:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC).
* '''Oppose''' As I mentioned in the section below, mountain dogs are a type of dogs. Not all of them are livestock guardian dogs, nor do I believe all livestock guardian dogs are mountain dogs. ] 17:29, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

===] and ]=== ===] and ]===
*{{Find sources|Mountain dog}} *{{Find sources|Mountain dog}}

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The contents of the Mountain dog page were merged into Livestock guardian dog on 20 November 2019. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Please Note: The term Livestock guarding dog is the one used by scholars writing on the subject, not the term Livestock guardian dog, which is equally logical but just not the one adopted by those studing the subject.

Yorkshire Terrier?

I am not a dog breed expert, so I am just curious - is Yorkshire Terrier really livestock guarding dog? CyberGene 20:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus 04:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I noticed the little note at the top there, but considering that outside this article I've never heard "livestock guarding dog" used, and I've got half a dozen reliable and topically relevant sources sitting right in front of me that use "livestock guardian dog" exclusively, I think it's absurd for the name of the article to be what it is now. If anyone wants them I can produce all the sources with all the pertinent info. But claiming that "scholars" prefer one name without providing references is unacceptable. Even if this was true, what academia prefers is not automatically better. Books and member associations generally available that deal with the subject use "livestock guardian dog", and that is what people will be searching for. VanTucky 05:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I notice that this page was earlier moved from Livestock guardian dog to Livestock guarding dog, and I checked the sources cited in the article. Of the four websites that loaded successfully and had any reference to the subject, two use "Guarding" (overwhelmingly), and two use "Guardian" (exclusively). Both "Guarding" sources seem to be more academic, and both "Guardian" sources seem to be more industry-oriented.

Based upon the principle from our naming conventions that Misplaced Pages is optimized for the general reader over the specialist, the case seems slightly stronger for Livestock guardian dogs. I think it might be good to gather a bit more input, so I'm relisting the request at WP:RM for another 5 days. -GTBacchus 02:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

That's fair. I can provide more resources (written for the general public, not industry publications or academic ones) of those that use guardian exclusively. VanTucky 02:20, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I think that would be helpful. -GTBacchus 02:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
  • All of the sources I list below, which I've been using in Domestic sheep, exclusively use "livestock guardian dog". And keeping aware that it isn't a valid sole reason for changing the name, guardian gets more than 8,000 hits and guarding only gets over 2,000. The first hit for the latter term directly goes to the "Livestock Guardian Dog Association". It is indicative that the USDA prefers guarding, but this is the only major source that I have personally seen use it so far. I would agree with the assessment that the general public and most general reading sources use guardian, while specialized organizations such as the USDA use guarding. I would advocate using what most people are going to recognize. VanTucky 19:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
  1. Ensminger, Dr. M.E. (1986). Sheep and Goat Science, Fifth Edition. Danville, Illinois: The Interstate Printers and Publishers Inc. ISBN 0-8134-2464-X. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  2. Smith M.S., Barbara (1997). Beginning Shepherd's Manual, Second Edition. Ames, Iowa: Iowa State University Press. ISBN 0-8138-2799-X. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  3. Weaver, Sue (2005). Sheep: small-scale sheep keeping for pleasure and profit. 3 Burroughs Irvine, CA 92618: Hobby Farm Press, an imprint of BowTie Press, a division of BowTie Inc. ISBN 1-931993-49-1.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location (link)
  4. Brown, Dave (1996). The Modern Shepherd. Wharfedale Road, Ipswich 1P1 4LG, United Kingdom: Farming Press. ISBN 0-85236-188-2. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: location (link)
  5. Budiansky, Stephen (1999). The Covenant of the Wild: Why animals chose domestication. Yale University Press. ISBN 0300079931.
  6. Wooster, Chuck (2005). Living with Sheep: Everything You Need to Know to Raise Your Own Flock. Guilford, Conneticut: The Lyons Press. ISBN 1-59228-531-7. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
  7. Sheep and Predator Management -2005, American Sheep Industry Association, May 6, 2005, retrieved 2007-12-27
  8. Simmons, Paula (2001). Storey's Guide to Raising Sheep. North Adams, MA: Storey Publishing LLC. ISBN 978-1-58017-262-2. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Interactions with Herding Dogs?

Having read both this article and the one on herding dogs, I have to wonder how the two types of dogs interact when a rancher is using both. I ask because the herding dogs rely on predatory instincts to shepherd the animals, but the guardian dogs chase away predators. It might be helpful of the article had a section of how these two types of dogs interact when working for the same herd. —MiguelMunoz (talk) 09:34, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

IRISH WOLF

This article lists Irish Wolfhound as being part of livestock guardian dogs. However, the Irish Wolfhound is not a breed recognized by the livestock guarding association of america as a dog that guards livestock. Furthermore, according to the FCI, AKC, ANKC, CKC, KC (UK), NZKC, UKC as well as the Irish Wolfhound Association of America the Irish Wolfhound is in the hound group, not the working group along with all other livestock guardian breeds. The hound group is comprised of dogs that hunt and chase animals. Therefore a rancher would never want an Irish Wolfhound to guard livestock, since it may instinctually hunt (course) livestock. Dogs in the Hound group have been breed for hunting, not guarding livestock. Dogs in the working group have been breed for specific tasks, such as guarding livestock. In conclusion, Irish Wolfhound should not be listed in the Livestock Guardian Dog section of Misplaced Pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.189.10.182 (talk) 14:01, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Interaction with predators

"The mere presence of a guardian dog is usually enough to ward off predators, but LGDs will confront predators by vocal intimidation, barking, and displaying very aggressive behavior. It is very rare for a LGD to attack a predator, as they are able to drive predators off otherwise"

This seems to be a misconception. How exactly are they going to drive predators away otherwise than attack them, offer them a car ride? My LGDs immediately launch at predators immediately, kill coyotes not to mention foxes and other smaller ones, and fought bear. Typical LGD behavior is described http://wiki.wyomingauthors.org/w/page/12626757/Cat%20Urbigkit .

Afru (talk) 17:23, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Leo's

I think that Leonberger were used originally as Livestock guardian dogs. Not any more perhaps.http://www.petinsurance.com/healthzone/pet-articles/pet-breeds/Leonberger-Dogs.aspx http://www.prairiesongleos.com/leo.html http://www.canadogs.com/BreedLeonberger.htm, http://www.backyardherds.com/threads/livestock-guardian-dog-lgd-herding-working-dog-breeds-listing.13731/Hafspajen (talk) 04:03, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


All of those references are pre-WW.The breed changed after almost been wiped out. Leo's are no longer used as LGD's, are not considered by any modern LGD expert to be LGDs and are not suitable as one. This list is for dogs currently used as LGDs. With one exception (an unsourced webpage) none of the references given on the this page by the person changing it have Leo's as LGDs. In fact if you look at the LEo club of Onterio's website (one of the links given) it doens't list LGD as their work and the ONLY reference is LGD's in their background. The change to list Leo's as current LGD's is unsupported!!!BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

I see your concern. Given your 200 dog experience with Great Pyrenees I appreciate your opinion. However, this all sounds like WP:OR, and you apparently don't have a WP:RS for your personal opinion. And there is nothing to the contrary compared to the five sources I've put in. In part, this could be about WP:TRUTH. An explanatory note with a source would help elucidate your distinction. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:10, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


My experience is with close to a thousand Pyrs and other LGDs (including Anatolian's, Akbash, Kuvaz, Maremma's, and various OVcharkas) going back to the 70's when LGDs were first being rediscovered in the US, and includes LGD testing, training and placement. The 200 is just in-house. I also am a member of multiple LGD forums and mentor LGD owners across the country. None of your sources except the one unsourced webpage say anything about LEO's as LGDs. Herding is not LGD work. The Swiss paper doesn't give them as an LGD, the Onterio club link is for herding and dfoesn't list them as an LGD,and so one and so on. You have not supported your change.BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 17:21, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


Please show current evidence (pictures/persons) using Leo's as an LGD todayBigWhiteFireDog (talk) 17:42, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Your personal anecdotal testimonial is interesting, but is not a WP:RS. Your self-authenticated expert testimonial is — putting it gently — not much more than an Ipse dixit. I wP:AGF. Nevertheless, I have put in five sources that you think are not good. I disagree. You have put in zero. Please show your WP:RSS, if they exist. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 18:24, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


SO prove a negative basically. Right.... What is your background in Leo's and other LGDs just out of curiosity since you decided to insult mine?

Lets start with this. http://www.leonbergerclubofamerica.info/is-this-breed-for-you/ "Leonbergers are NOT outdoor dogs."... http://www.LGD.org and http://lgd.org/rarebreeds.html, lists LGD breeds, no mention of Leos... http://www.leonbergerclubnw.com/About-Leonbergers/About-Leonbergers.html "They excel in obedience, agility, therapy dog roles, water rescue work, and many other outdoor activities. It takes lots of patience, training and work; all of which adds up to TIME!" No mention of LGD work. Then there is this section further on,"Leos do not adapt well to being left outside alone." (Bit of a problem for an LGD)... http://www.leonbergerclubofgb.com/#!history/c1x4u No mention of LGD work and disputing whether Pyrs were even used to create the breed.... http://www.leonbergerclubofgb.com/#!working/c1cni No mention of LGD work.... https://www.akc.org/breeds/leonberger/index.cfm No mention of LGD work. "Farm work" does not mean LGD.... http://www.leonberger.com/LeoWorld/breed.html No mention of LGD work.... http://www.leonberger.com/WorkingLeos/ LGD work is not mentioned as work that they currently do... http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/workingdogs/leonberger_fci.htm Link to FCI standard. No mention of LGD work. "Watch" doesn't mean LGD.... http://www.leonberger-hunde.de/ Considered the parent club. No mention of LGD work. Again "watch dog" doesn't mean LGD.... https://www.facebook.com/notes/livestock-guard-dog-project/recognized-lgd-breeds/598554266828230. +4000 member LGD training/mentoring group list of recognized, currently working LGDs. Leos are not one of the breeds recognized. Not one member owns an LGD Leo nor knows of one working though several members own Leos as draft or therapy dogs. Group consensus is that they are not an LGD.... https://www.facebook.com/notes/learning-about-lgds/legitimate-livestock-guardian-breeds/392431584175629 +2500 member LGD training/mentoring group list of recognized, currently working LGDs Leo's are not a recognized LGD breed here either and again group consensus is they are not an LGD...

Want more negatives to prove a negative or is that enough?

AS for your references, this reference of yours is invalid/non-supportive: http://www.leonbergerclubofontario.com/LeosAtWork-Herding.htm. No mention of them as an LGD, only "quite a few breeds in their background were used as flock guardians" (which isn't quite true as the Pyr is the only one) and the article is about using them as a herding dog (which btw negates them as an LGD as you can't have both due to prey drive issues). Another invalid one is this one www.drjwv.com/es/Shar-Pei_proposed_groups-_12-11-small.pdf. "Working-Molosser" is the group and Leos are noted as "multipurpose working dog",that doesn't mean LGD. No mention anywhere of them being an LGD. This reference is also invalid: The use of guard dogs in the Swiss Alps: A first analysis". No mention of Leos at all except as being related to the St. Bernard. Next up as invalid/non-supportive is http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/leonberger.htm. No mention of LGD work at all. "The Leonberger is an obedient, good-natured and fearless dog. A wonderful family companion, he is well known for his friendliness toward children. Leonbergers are seen participating in many dog sports and activities including agility, obedience, carting, water rescue and HERDING. Their gentle nature also makes them good candidates to work as Therapy dogs."

So that takes care of 4/5 leaving only a non-authoritative page. The Leo is not an LGD and that's not an opinion. Again, Please show current evidence (pictures/persons) using Leo's as an LGD today, something you have so far failed to do BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 22:13, 20 May 2014 (UTC)


I don't know. They are not mentioned in the AKC or any other breed standard, and mostly used as family dogs, but they was used as livestock guardian dogs and used for any other guardian purposes, and might be used again, I think the ability is there. Here somebody using them for herding. http://www.leonbergerclubofontario.com/LeosAtWork-Herding.htm. Hafspajen (talk) 15:40, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

1) Herding is not LGD work and in fact is almost the opposite as LGD work requires low prey drive and herding high prey drive (do I need to provide references for this statement?). Anytime a litter of pups is produced from a herding and an LGD (which happens somewhat often), it is recommended that the pups are either sold as pets or put down as there is internal conflict and a serious potential danger to stock. 2)There is no authoritative evidence of Leos and LGD work. If you look at the histories posted above from the breed clubs, there is no reference to LGD work, and in fact the predator populations in western Europe were pretty close to none existent and wolves had been exterminated in Germany by the time of the development of the Leo http://www.wolvesandhumans.org/pdf-documents/Rough%20Guide%20to%20Wolves%20in%20Western%20Europe%20article.pdf so there would not have been pressing need for such work. 3) There is no evidence that any such ability is there or they would currently be used for such work especially since only one of the 3-4 (and possibly more) breeds used to create the breed was an LGD breed. 4)With all due respect, this page isn't about what dogs "might" be used for LGD work. It's about LGD breeds and Leo's, although great dogs, are not an LGD breed. I am removing them from the list. BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 18:57, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, no authoritative evidence of them being used as a LGD. Also they are not a "mountain dog" The area is rolling hills and ag land and they were developed because the breeder wanted a "dog that looked like a lion" (multiple refs for this). Regardless of that, being a "mountain dog" as no bearing on being an LGD, there are some LGD's that are not mountain dogs and some Mountain dogs that are not LGDs. In addition, the Kangal.ca link you gave is further evidence that the Leo is not an LGD and never was as that page lists dogs that were once LGDs but are not recognized nor used as one current (the Bernese Mtn Dog is one example). As for the other link, I'm not sure the point you were trying to make but it has nothing to do with this discussion. Since I know Cat Urbigkit, would you like a statement from her on the use of Leos? Will that end this discussion? BigWhiteFireDog (talk) 19:52, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Tibetan Mastiff not recommend as a Livestock Guardian Dog!

There is little or no evidence that the Tibetan Mastiff was originally used for a livestock guardian dog. The dogs were tied to the owners door or hut. They were called "tied dogs" or "door dog" because they guarded the family home entrance. Early Asian missionaries described the dogs as family guard dogs. For more information please consult the Tibetan Mastiff Association page. These dogs are NOT recommended for use as livestock guardian dogs. Dj8675309 (talk) 05:59, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. http://www.tibetanmastiffinfo.com/tmfaqs/Common_Myths_1.shtml

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Would this be a better link? http://www1.nina.no/lcie_new/pdf/634994135320630456_IUCN%20CSG%20Occasional%20Papers%20Rigg%20LGDs.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by BigWhiteFireDog (talk • contribs) 14:04, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was merge. Cavalryman (talk) 03:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I propose to merge Mountain dog to this page. The mountain dog article is an unnecessary WP:FORK and none of the cited references mention the term "mountain dog" at all, so this will likely be a simple redirect. Cavalryman (talk) 01:16, 13 November 2019 (UTC).

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
  • Oppose You merged these. Without notifying the contributors! I created Mountain dog, and was not notified. You deleted inter alia, Bernese Mountain Dog and Leonberger from this article, proving the articles were not redundant or coterminous. There is no indication in the article history that this latest merger proposal was ever discussed or proposed at Mountain dog. Hubris and a deliberate material procedural lapse.
And you say "Mountain dog" is not in the sources for the Bernese Mountain Dog! YGBSM.7&6=thirteen (☎) 17:09, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
User:7&6=thirteen, my apologies for not notifying you personally, both pages were correctly tagged ( & ), and the appropriate WikiProject (of which you are a member) was notified. Do you have any sources that support this as a type of dog? Not only would all the sources currently used not pass if presented at RSN, but they do not even include the term “Mountain dog”, I can’t even find non-RS for this page. William Harris, notifying you as an existing participant in the discussion. Cavalryman (talk) 21:03, 6 December 2019 (UTC).
Due process has been followed, Mountain dog was notified on 13NOV19, and merge was the decision. However, I am always open to a review based on the opinion of a recognised and long-serving contributer to both the dog-related and wolf-related articles. What is the evidence for keeping it as a separate article? William Harristalk 21:13, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
What you say is factually correct. Of course, there were only two persons who !voted and there was NO POSTING at Mountain dog which was the targeted article they were seeking to eliminate. How or why that happens I don't know. I disagree with your conclusion that "Due process has been followed, Mountain dog was notified on 13NOV19" as the history doesn't support it. Of course, it is reopened now, and perhaps we can improve the articles (which are not coextensive or coreferenced or coterminous) so that we can keep them both. In any event, we will see how that all shakes out. Cheers. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:43, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Can you point to any of these supporting RS? Cavalryman (talk) 03:10, 8 December 2019 (UTC).
  • Oppose As I mentioned in the section below, mountain dogs are a type of dogs. Not all of them are livestock guardian dogs, nor do I believe all livestock guardian dogs are mountain dogs. Dream Focus 17:29, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Livestock guardian dog and Mountain dog

There was an o'er hasty merger of the latter article into the former. They posted it on one page and left the other off. As the creator of the latter article, I would have thought somebody would have notified me. But merger discussions are subject to abuse and quiet rigging of the process. The merger discussions are NOW ongoing at Talk:Livestock guardian dog#Merger proposal and Talk:Mountain dog#Merger proposal. I wrote the latter article many years ago, and it needs additional sources, particularly ones that use the phrase "mountain dog." The breeds that are listed on these two pages do not completely overlap. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 21:17, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

I too am very open to reviewing previous decisions, but I will reiterate that the correct notice was placed at Mountain dog () and it remained there for the duration of the discussion. Further I spent an hour this morning trawling Google for anything related to Mountain dogs, and everything I found was preceded by one the words Appenzeller, Bernese, Entlebucher, Greater Swiss, Swiss (all of which are included in Swiss mountain dog) or Estrela.
A couple of housekeeping points:
  • as both notices point to the above discussion section, I have made this section a sub-section of the former, that way interested parties will be pointed here, and
  • I would like to close the two discussions you have opened at Talk:Mountain dog redirecting interested parties to this discussion, it serves no purpose having parallel discussions occurring simultaneously.
Regards, Cavalryman (talk) 23:07, 6 December 2019 (UTC).
13, your assertion that due process was not followed is rebutted on the facts; please cease that assertion. William Harristalk 00:17, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Speaking as someone schooled in the law, I can say that reasonable notice via means likely to actually give effective notice is part of "Due process" That being said, and that being indisputably true, I will let it go. And yet it moves.
I will provide additional sources, but am marshalling my assets. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 03:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Writing as someone qualified in law, we are required to comply with WP:MERGE in relation to this matter, and no more. William Harristalk 05:27, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Writing as someone who has been in trouble with the law this article is a list so maybe we could simply rename it and add the list of mountain dogs? Talk 📧 22:13, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

User:7&6=thirteen, it has been a week since this merger discussion was reopened and no sources have been identified. Are you happy that we close the above discussion and re-merge? Cavalryman (talk) 20:53, 13 December 2019 (UTC).

Cavalryman Thanks. I have not forgotten. I have sources, and will get them in within the next two days. Real life has intruded. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 20:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
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