Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 07:59, 25 December 2019

Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

Archives

2005 categorized contributions 2007–2008 discussion on British nationality 2008 discussion on honorific prefixes Jan 2003 – Feb 2003 Oct 2003 – Sep 2004 Oct 2004 – Jan 2006 Jan 2006 – Feb 2007 Feb 2007 – Dec 2007 2007 • 2008 • 2009 • 2010 • 2011 2012 • 2013 • 2014 • 2015 • 2016 • 2017 • 2018 • 2019

This page has archives. Sections older than 45 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present.

RfC: First mention in the first sentence... (MOS:JOBTITLES)

Should the first mention of a position in the first sentence of the article about the position be de-capitalized? See collapsed just above this line. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 22:16, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

!vote "yes" or "no"

• Yes. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:29, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
• (moved from Discussion below) Yes. Where it appears in the article is irrelevant, and if it's capitalized early on in the lead, then people will capitalize it everywhere, per MOS:ARTCON.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

  @SMcCandlish: Can you clarify if that is a "yes" to my comment or a "yes" !vote to the RFC question of de-capitalizing first mention of the position?—Bagumba (talk) 12:20, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

  It was a "yes" !vote to the RfC question; I didn't notice the intervening subhead. In response to your comment, part of the point of the wording of MOS:JOBTITLES is a compromise between "traditionalist" and "contemporary" styles. If the subject of the material is itself the title/position, then it can be capitalized, if it's a unique title that is often capitalized, and treating it that way makes some sense in the context. Thus, President of the United States should begin with "The President of the United States ..." (while Chief executive officer should not capitalize that title, being generic). In a genericized context, that same PotUS-related phrase would not be capitalized: "Tension levels between the president of the United States and the prime minister of the UK have varied considerably by who in particular has been in these offices. However, the two countries have been careful to maintain their alliance since the 19th century." It would be easier, "in a vacuum", to just never capitalize these things except when directly connected to a name. But it's not easy in practice; we're not going to get consensus to do that. Just getting consensus to not capitalize every f'ing occurrence has taken a decade+ and lots of proof that mainstream, off-site sources are no longer, in the main, rampantly capitalizing them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:04, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

• Yes per SMcCandlish reasoning. If this does go thru, MOS:JOBTITLE should distinguish it from the existing "Richard Nixon was the president of the United States" example, which is presumably not capitalized because "the" precedes "president" (?).—Bagumba (talk) 11:52, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

discussion

That's a yes in my book... Positions aren't capitalized... only titles are. I fear you've given me a to-do list. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:14, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Eyer, I have hundreds, perhaps 2000+ more, if the rough calculation I did in my head is correct. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 22:20, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

I am going to cry. :). —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:30, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Here is a fun one Special:PrefixIndex/Secretary of. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 22:42, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

And Special:PrefixIndex/First Lad. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:49, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

MOS:JOBTITLES is pretty clear about not capitalizing titles or positions when they are "preceded by a modifier (including a definite or indefinite article)". So President of the United States currently seems OK with "The president of the United States (POTUS) is the ..."—Bagumba (talk) 08:38, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

This becomes more complicated when you consider Vice Presidents and Prime Minister. By this logic, there is no reason why Prime Minister of the United Kingdom is not titled Prime minister of the United Kingdom. Titles on en.wiki should use sentence case. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 08:53, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

This ngram shows that MOS:JOBTITLES is against common usage in corpus. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 09:06, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

MOS:JOBTITLES for "U.S. Secretary of Defense Penelope Penwinkle" and "U.S. Representative Felicia Filbert"

I have encountered an editor who seems to think these should be "U.S. secretary of defense Penelope Penwinkle" and "U.S. representative Felicia Filbert", based on the example of "Mao met with US president Richard Nixon in 1972." In my opinion, the reason "president" is lowercase in that phrase is because the proper form of the title is "President of the U.S." rather than "U.S. President". So I believe "U.S. Secretary of Defense Penelope Penwinkle" and "U.S. Representative Felicia Filbert" are correct. There does not seem to be an example in MOS:JOBTITLES that directly addresses this question. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:24, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

That should be US President Richard Nixon. Lowercase, if it were Richard Nixon, US president. GoodDay (talk) 21:26, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@GoodDay: that's expressly counter to MOS:JOBTITLES which lists the example "Mao met with US president Richard Nixon in 1972", with "president" modified by "US". —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 21:31, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Eyer on that one. The proper alternative would be "Mao met with President of the United States Richard Nixon in 1972." —BarrelProof (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

@BarrelProof: we've already discussed my thoughts on this: "U.S." modifies "president", "secretary", "senator", and "representative". I'll wait for other editors to weigh in on your question. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 21:31, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I disagree, as you know; the titles here are "U.S. Secretary of Defense" and "U.S. Representative". The "U.S." is part of the title. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I am curious... Would the titles be "U.K. Member of Parliament" and "E.U. Member of Parliament"? Or would "U.K." and "E.U." describe the type of "member of parliament"? (Trying to extrapolate beyond just U.S. settings.) —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:28, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

A better use of our time might be to review the number of articles that link to Members of Parliament using an uppercase "M", but here we are. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:47, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

Good point. No reason for plurals to be capitalized in that way. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 22:51, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I think the more proper form in the E.U. case would be "Member of the European Parliament Elwood Ellison". For the UK case, I'm not sure. Perhaps "Member of the Parliament of the United Kingdom Priscilla Premington". —BarrelProof (talk) 22:55, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

I would have thought that the normal way to refer to such people in the UK would be Elwood Ellison MEP and Priscilla Premington MP, with links from MEP and MP to the relevant articles. MP being treated the same in Australia, not sure about Canada. MEP and MP don't seem to have an equivalent in the US, but aren't they generally referred to as Representative James Bloggs and Senator Jimmy Diamond? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

That might be more a matter of whether the article is written in American English or UK English rather than whether it is referring to a person with a U.S. jobtitle or a non-U.S. jobtitle. Sometimes an article written in AmE may refer to someone who holds a non-U.S. title. Also, it is not uncommon to use "U.S. Representative" rather than just "Representative", e.g., in order to identify a member of the federal U.S. House of Representatives as contrasted with a member of the House of Representatives of a U.S. state. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Note that American officials are often referred to as Representative Smith or Secretary Jones (or indeed President Trump) as though they are ranks. The UK does not do this. We do not say Prime Minister Johnson (although the American media often does) or Member of Parliament Smith or Minister Jones or Secretary of State Bloggs. We would simply say Mr Johnson or Ms Smith or Dr Jones or Mrs Bloggs, depending on what their usual honorific was just like anyone else. So the cases are slightly different. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:08, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

To my mind, "US representative John Smith" would indicate that Smith is acting in some capacity to represent the US, perhaps on an international committee. "US Representative John Smith" indicates much more specifically that Smith is a member of the US Congress. So the capitalization carries important semantic information; it is not just an arbitrary style thing that we can change without changing the meaning. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:43, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

First names or surnames

A discussion is open here on whether to use first names or surnames in this and related articles. - SchroCat (talk) 16:32, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

“The late”

Should we remove uses of “the late” in articles? It seems to not be so neutral; one probably wouldn’t say “the late Stalin” or something—it implies respect.

Should uses of “the late” be removed for neutrality? DemonDays64 | Tell me if I'm doing something wrong :P 03:29, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

• I could see an argument that using “the late” is poor word choice (more appropriate in journalism than in encyclopedic writing), but I don’t see it as being non-neutral. Blueboar (talk) 04:40, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
• @DemonDays64: Could you show examples of where it's been used? I too am not sure that it shows respect: isn't it just a slightly euphemistic term for "deceased" or "dead"? PamD 06:15, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
• @PamD: here is one: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Post-truth_politics&diff=prev&oldid=926401419 is one—the man has been dead for 23 years, so I removed it. The problem is that there's not at all an objective threshold where we can say "oh this dude isn't late"—we just don't really have any ability to distinguish between a person who died in the last few years, in the last twenty years, and the 1600s. I think that the bigger problem than neutrality is that there's not a good way to determine if it is appropriate. DemonDays64 | Tell me if I'm doing something wrong :P 15:41, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

It doesn't add anything, in that example. If it's important to mention that someone was dead at the time under discussion, then (died 2012) or (1950-2012) after their name would be usually be better. I'm neutral between "late" and "deceased" in something like "She explained that the knife had belonged to her late husband", to invent an example. I don't think respect comes into it: it's just unnecessary verbiage unless we need to know that the person is dead. PamD 14:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

• Remove, if a death year exists it will be at the front of the biographic article, and in other cases 'the late' isn't encyclopedic. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

Including dead names

Trans people's dead names should not be referenced or included at all, unless the trans person in question has explicitly said it is okay. Imwahte (talk) 00:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

That is basically our style, expect in the case where the person was also notable under their "dead name" (eg the case of Caitlyn Jenner as Bruce Jenner) and the sourcing is clearly there to support it. --Masem (t) 01:13, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: That is still somewhat ambiguous in the MOS:DEADNAME. Some Wikipedians are insisting on digging up Trans people's dead names in the Personal Life section of their articles because the guideline only refers to the lead sentences of an article. I tried for instance removing Peppermint's deadname from her article and that quickly got reverted by a VERY active wikipedian citing this technicality. Also refer to the talk page of Kim Petras where a similar argument ensued. I think removing the "in the lead section" bit from the guideline is therefore a necessary development, since I believe wikipedia should be held to the same journalistic standard of contemporary publications who have collectively agreed that digging up trans people's dead names when they were never known under that name serves no value besides that of undermining their identity, and is therefore a form of disparagement not only against the individual, but against the entire LGBT community. cave (talk) 13:30, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I did review past discussions here, and there was an RFC to try to change the wording which did not successfully conclude anything, so I can't just strip "from the lede" here without more consensus. I will point out the draft MOS WP:GENDERID does have the specific advice to not include deadnames even if they can be sourced (as in the case of Peppermint), but that's only a draft. So unfortunately we can't offer stronger advice, but I would stress in arguments that WP editors are more aware of the troubles of deadnaming against the balance of verifyability. --Masem (t) 14:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Also keep in mind, that applies to living persons (WP:BLP). For long-deceased people, if the dead name is known, there's no restrictions on it (ala this edit ) --Masem (t) 01:15, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

I COULDN'T POSSIBLY DISAGREE MORE.I am deeply offended by attempts to suppress the original names of transgender persons from biographical articles...birth names should always be included in all biographical articles without exception as long as they can be verified.There is no special right to erase one's history attached to any class of person,be they actors,politicians (Robert C. Byrd was born Cornelius Calvin Sale,his article says so),authors (Anne Perry committed murder as a child when she was Juliet Hulme and her article says so)...you are not giving a proper or complete picture of anyone's life if you do not make sure to include the name the person was born with.To fetishize the preference of a particular population is a vicious attack on NPOV.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 07:58, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Applying MOS

I appreciate that @Mechanical Keyboarder: wants to decapitalize office titles in the bio intros, per MOS. However, I wish he'd do it via articles series. Instead he's only making such changes to the 'incumbent' officials & that's merely throwing off the series of articles. If you're going to make a change to (for examples) Boris Johnson? then make those changes to the articles of his predecessors. GoodDay (talk) 21:34, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Articles are improved one at a time. Having 1 correct article and 19 incorrect articles is better than having 20 incorrect articles. Surtsicna (talk) 22:54, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

And given that “mass-conforming” multiple articles (all at once) is something that has gotten other MOS editors in trouble... going slowly and taking it one article at a time makes a lot of sense. Blueboar (talk) 23:01, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

There's one thing that's annoying me for sure. Mechanical Keyboarder's refusal to engage in discussion on this topic, while at the same time steamrolling ahead on multiple articles. GoodDay (talk) 14:07, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Judicial postnoms

I propose to add at the end of #Post-nominal letters:

In the main body of an article judicial titles, such as "Justice" or "Chief Justice", should be used similarly to political titles, such as "President". However, in discussion of a particular judgment it may be convenient to use instead the conventional post-nominal legal abbreviation, such as "J" or "CJ".

@Jack Upland and Find bruce: Errantius (talk) 20:02, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: those legal abbreviations are only used in legal texts. This is an encyclopedia, not a legal text, though some articles on Australian legal and constitutional topics do look like bad law student's essays. I think this is covered by MOS:JARGON. There is no advantage in saying "Gaudron J" rather than "Justice Gaudron". In fact, "Gaudron J" is confusing because "J" could mean "Justice" or "Judge". There is no reason to use this abbreviation style. Looking at some leading cases:

1. Australian Communist Party v Commonwealth only uses it in the infobox.
2. Donoghue v Stevenson doesn't use it.
3. Roe v. Wade only uses it briefly.

We don't need it.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:34, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Or Gaudron last initial J (or in some styles, Gaudron first initial J). Just, no. --Izno (talk) 00:32, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

• Comment: Does this need to be in the MOS? Whilst I am familiar with Australian usage, I do not have sufficient knowledge to comment on whether this is the same in other jurisdictions. In Australian usage it is almost universal for reliable sources commenting on a particular case to use this form of shorthand. It is used in WP articles discussing decisions of the High Court, such as Dietrich v The Queen & Al-Kateb v Godwin that have been rated good article or better. Yes other articles refer to them as Justice, Chief Justice etc and there is nothing wrong with that. In aricles where there are different judgments and a range of issues, such as Commonwealth v Verwayen, repeatedly refering to Justice becomes clunky. A person who whether Gaudron J has the title judge or justice is unlikely to care about the difference.
• See also: The MOS guideline: Do not use unwarranted abbreviations.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:39, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Izno, I don't know a jurisdiction where "J" for "Justice" could be before the name, so that isn't proposed. Jack Upland, I think that this usage is common throughout the legal anglosphere and I don't think I've ever seen "J" used for "Judge". Errantius (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 04:37, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

• I did not say "jurisdiction". Please re-read what I wrote. --Izno (talk) 13:31, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

  You said "in some styles". What else did that mean but the styles of some jurisdictions? Who would write "Justice Gaudron" as "J Gaudron"? Errantius (talk) 18:24, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

  Style as in Stronk and White, Chicago, and others, and why this document is Manual of Style / Biography. --Izno (talk) 19:50, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Firstly, this isn't in any way a postnominal, so the discussion is misplaced: it's an (extremely common) convention for how to refer to a judge in writing. We write about topics based on what the sources use, not on the opinions of some random guy on the internet. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:59, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: It's a legal convention which is used by legal sources. I've never seen it used by news media. Misplaced Pages is not a legal source. We do not have to change styles based on topic. I don't think it's "clunky" to refer to "Justice Gaudron" rather than "Gaudron J". In fact, since we are not in a legal context, I think we can drop the "Justice" altogether in repeated mentions. In response to Errantius, I have seen "J" used for Judge in legal contexts in Australia. In the English legal context, the legal abbreviations include "B" meaning Baron of the Exchequer and "MR" meaning Master of the Rolls. These are baffling to the casual reader and totally pointless.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:42, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

PS. Misplaced Pages's List of legal abbreviations states that J can mean Judge or Justice.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

• Proposal withdrawn. Thank you all for your comments. I take the point by The Drover's Wife that these are not actually postnominals. Errantius (talk) 21:18, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Nationality of people from UK

I've raised a question on the talk page Nationality_of_people_from_the_United_Kingdom about whether it is correct to describe the UK as an "equal union" of four nations, because I believe this is a misleading statement which would need some external source to justify it as correct. FrankP (talk) 17:47, 13 December 2019 (UTC)