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Bachelor Lake (Brown County, Minnesota)

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Bachelor Lake (Brown County, Minnesota) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Lake is not notable. All that is known is its location (and hence also elevation) and uninsightful assertion, from its name, that it is named for a bachelor who lived nearby. I presume that was either a) simply made up by the commercial author of a typical place names book, which just asserts "Bachelor lake, in Stark, was named for a lone homesteader there, unmarried" while in fact it was named for a childhood pet or a song or a place where someone grew up or in honor of their uncle or whatever; or maybe b) there was a bachelor there, but in either case it is not interesting or encyclopedic and does not suffice to open a Misplaced Pages article. Note, there has been a fairly wide misapprehension that Misplaced Pages is a gazetteer about lakes, while that is not true. This does not meet wp:GNG or wp:GEOLAND or any other criteria for existence. This is similar to recent Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Halifax Lake, where all that was known is the location and an assertion it was named for where someone came from. Doncram (talk) 04:55, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

• Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/2019 December 6. —_{Talk to my owner:Online} 05:16, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Minnesota-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU 09:37, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 03:53, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

• Redirect to Brown County, Minnesota, where the lake is mentioned. I can't find any information about this feature except a couple of brief mentions that only establish existence. If the lake is not deemed to be a likely search term, then I'm fine with deletion. Hog Farm (talk) 18:15, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that redirect idea; we should consider alternatives to deletion. I see the county article does, oddly, have a Geography subsection "Lakes", with a list of names of lakes and the only reference being a link to Google maps. I am inclined to simply delete that list there; it makes sense for county articles to list towns and other populated places, but about lakes, it could merely be said "As can be seen from looking at a map, the county has a number of lakes." Which is true for any county in Minnesota. There is no subsection for rivers or forests or anything besides "Major highways" and "Adjacent counties". Substantial rivers seem more interesting to me, and are covered in prose discussion in the geography section, where it is also given that "611 square miles (1,580 km2) is land and 7.4 square miles (19 km2) (1.2%) is water"; that alone seems like the right level of coverage about ponds, lakes, whatever, to me. If one were to expand more about geography it seems to me there should be more discussion about the 98.8% which non-water-covered land, instead.

I further see that three of the other listed lake names link to articles similar to this one, with no information besides location and an assertion of naming reason attributed to the same Minnesota place names book. The place names book itself cites no sources for anything, it reads like it is passing along rumors/speculation, in my reading, as I may have suggested above. Anyhow personally I think deletion followed by deletion of that mention at the county article seems appropriate. --Doncram (talk) 03:36, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. ミラP 04:42, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

• Delete No evidence of notability for one of Minnesota's 10,000+ lakes. Also delete School Lake (Brown County, Minnesota), Juni Lake, and Altermatt Lake. Reywas92 08:44, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
• Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota. MB 03:58, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
• Keep; each of Minnesota's 10,000+ natural lakes are notable as explained in Misplaced Pages:Notability (geographic features), given that "information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist". Instead of being redirected or outright deleted, the lake articles should be expanded with details like surface area, fishing opportunities, etc.– Gilliam (talk) 16:32, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Uh, surface area is a statistic, not a notability-establishing fact. The idea that merely knowing it has a name and where that name could have come from is notability is utterly absurd. This is not information of substance whatsoever. So can you provide the content it could be expanded with? It's a generic small body of water that no one has ever written anything of substance about apparently. Reywas92 02:43, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
• Strong Keep WP:GEOLAND#4. Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc. The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. Minnesota has a requirement that a lake be at least 10 acres (bachelor lake is 97 acres). Wisconsin has no such requirement. What that means is that lakes in Minnesota are notable, but in Wisconsin any old pond can be called a lake. Looks like a good fishing spot, Here is a 1943 map of Bachelor Lake. Lightburst (talk) 00:40, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh, really? Looks like a good fishing spot? Seems like you were fooled by fake news. There is NOTHING valid, besides the location of the lake, in that hookandbullet.com "source" about fishing. It suggests that it has info about fishing at Bachelor Lake, but it does not. Lightburst, I assume you did not read it? That is like other commercial series of webpages ostensibly providing information about lakes, based purely on the coordinates. Why not pad the article out with assertions about weather in the general area, based on just the coordinates, too? I think there must be a "source" for that too.

And the "lakeplace.com/lakefinder" source, yeah that is another commercial site. It suggests it has photos showing the lake, but clicking brings you only to ... Google maps.

About the 1943 map, well, that is not a source to say anything about the lake, either. From Google maps, we already knew there is a lake there.

Selective quoting from wp:GEOLAND doesn't exactly convince me. How about its statement that This guideline specifically excludes maps and census tables from consideration when establishing topic notability, because these sources often establish little except the existence of the subject (while maps do contribute to verifying existence). --Doncram (talk) 02:35, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Comment: The 1943 map shows Bachelor lake and it was certainly notable throughout the history of Brown County and Minnesota. And the links I have provided do not confer notability. However you missed this on the fishing spot link so I will help you So you're interested in fishing Bachelor Lake. As fishermen, we know there are times when our favorite spots are just not active so we built our Hot Spots feature to show you where the fish are biting in the area of Bachelor Lake. Now you'll know where catches are being recorded in the general area, and you can plan your day on the water. Check out our Fishing Times tab to determine when the fish will be most active. To find Bachelor Lake enter the 44.256905 latitude, and -94.651367 longitude coordinates into your GPS device or smart phone. If you need fishing tackle, or are looking for a fishing guide or fishing charter please visit Tackle, Guides, Charters IMO it is plain to see that WP:GEOLAND is met. Perhaps you should have done a thorough WP:BEFORE instead of attacking !voters who disagree with you. You have come at me like a snarly editor. Perhaps you should realize that I too am volunteering my time to address this frivolous nomination. Making snarly comments like this has no place in an AfD. Why not pad the article out with assertions about weather in the general area... Lightburst (talk) 02:56, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm still confused what the point of this fishing website is...The data for nearby Zanders Lake is identical to that of Bachelor Lake. This is autogenerated based on this website's model for local weather, not information that could be included in the article or anything providing notability. The 1943 map shows that the lake existed and had been named by that point, not "notable throughout the history". Reywas92 04:33, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry I guess that Lightburst perceived my comments as "snarly", but I perceive that quote differently: it is one of a few variations of boilerplate text used in all that fish-finder company's advertising pages, with nothing about the individual lake except its coordinates. Sorry, you might think that it is going to provide fishermen's actual comments about fishing in this lake, but it does not. Notice each of the comments is incoherent junk, not a real comment from a fisherman. Each indicates it is continued elsewhere, but if you click you just reach more ads, don't even get the complete (bogus) comment. And the comments are even labelled as being about not-this-lake, and they are repeated others of the series of ad pages. We should not provide links to those ad pages; they are a disservice to readers. --Doncram (talk) 23:19, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

• • (edit conflict, still posting duplicative response) I'm confused, what's a single fact in the fishing website that can be included in the article? It appears to be an autogenerated page merely establishing it is a lake that you need a fishing license to fish in. And that's not a map of the lake, it's a map of the township in which the lake is located: "This guideline specifically excludes maps and census tables from consideration when establishing topic notability, because these sources often establish little except the existence of the subject." Sure, in Minnesota it is in fact a lake, but that doesn't mean it's notable. Reywas92 02:43, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

@Reywas92: Fishing spot, not to confer notability. IMO a 92-97 acre lake is notable per WP:GEOLAND as a natural feature. It is a major feature of Brown County Minn. Historically named Bachelor lake - not numbered. I respect your opinion in many AfDs. My reading of Geoland differs from yours. Lightburst (talk) 03:01, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

It's only the seventh-largest lake even in this small county. If it were "a major feature" there would be something substantive written about it by a human, not just existence on an old map and an autogenerated fishing time table. Reywas92 04:33, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Comment: I looked into User:MB's suggestion that the lake be redirected to List of lakes of Minnesota. I acknowledge that now there are 3 pieces of info about this lake, arguably:

1. Location (coordinates)
2. An assertion of "explanation" for name of lake. Which I scoff at: I don't believe the source, frankly, which itself cites no sources, and is just making a probable-reasonable guess that it is named for a bachelor. It doesn't provide the name of a person or any other information, contributing to my believing the source manufactured a sentence as part of building a saleable book. We should not manufacture stuff ourselves, or accept manufactured stuff.
3. Size of lake, apparently 92 acres in 1968. From a 1968 state survey of lakes greater than 10 acres in size, which also reports an assertion of maximum depth and a measure of clarity of water in 1968, too, as can be seen in the table at List of lakes of Minnesota, which is sourced from there. Apparently this is one of the 11,842 lakes in Minnesota that justify the state's claim to be a land of 10,000 lakes. Previous wikipedia editors have sort of chosen to list all of these 11,842 lakes in the list-article, apparently, but the table there has way fewer than that number. Many or most of the 11,842 lakes were just numbered bodies of waters, without any name, in 1968, and I am guessing that is why listing them couldn't really be done. But there is a row for this Bachelor Lake there.

Okay, I just now inserted an anchor on the row for this Bachelor Lake into the List of lakes of Minnesota.

It would be acceptable to me for this article to be redirected to List of lakes of Minnesota#Bachelor Lake (Brown County, Minnesota). Note that this is actually better for readers, in providing more information to them, because it shows the lake in context: by sorting on the size column one can see its size relative to all the other lakes listed there. (On my computer screen, i can page down 65 times among lakes bigger than this one. ) --Doncram (talk) 02:35, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

• Here are a few sources for you - how the lake got its name and other such historical information

1. Minnesota Place Names Book
2. Minnesota Geographic Names: Their Origin and Historic Significance. Book
3. Collections of the Minnesota Historical Society Book
4. History of Brown County, Minnesota: Its People, Industries and Institutions Book
5. Geology of Minnesota, Volume 1 Book from 1884 commissioned in 1872.
6. Stark Township mention
7. History of Brown County mention

I added a few sections to improve the readability, also additional intro regarding location and several references. Lightburst (talk) 03:21, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Comment: The first four "books" are reprints of the same line "Bachelor lake in Stark was named for a lone homesteader there". So that is really one source. Collectively these add up to just a few trivial mentions that confirm it exists. As quoted above, Geoland#4 requires enough sources with verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. That has not been demonstrated. MB 04:27, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes. There is more out there. But I believe I spent enough time on it. I improved the article; if it is kept I will improve it further. But for now it’s best to for me to move on. Lightburst (talk) 05:11, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for trying to find sources, but in fact those sources provide nothing more. As MB notes, four of them are copies of the same 1920 "Places in Minnesota" type book, just available from different places, and with just the one lame-in-my-view assertion. Numbers 5 and 6 have passing mention of this lake, among other lakes in Brown County, with nothing to add. I brought up the 7th one, the "History of Brown County" one but could not find mention there. However Lightburst identified that one as merely a "mention", too. I do believe several people have spent enough time on this, already, so I am not pinging anyone to come back. And by the way IMHO there was no improvement of the article besides adding assertion of its size (which already appears in the List of Lakes of Minnesota article); other addition appears to be padding with no content. We don't want the same uninformative padding put into 10,000 separate articles that yes, the state conducted a study and this one was on its list, which tells us nothing about the lake. Rather, we have one list-article that does that for all at once, and gives info for each lake in relative context. That's my view, thanks. --Doncram (talk) 23:19, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

• I would say there has been improvement:

• *Here is the article before I worked on it. 2 sources, 2 sentences a stub without sections or information about the lake size or exact location
• Here is the article now 5 sources, navigation bars, three developed sections. My reading of GEOLAND says this lake is notable. but we will see if a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS agrees. Lightburst (talk) 04:13, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I look at that as having 3 sources. GNIS for location (counts zero towards notability). The one about size of lake being bogus, begging the question of what is the source for the webpage (needs to be deleted). And three pointing to Upham, which you might be thinking are independent, but are not at all. It is the same one sentence about naming, repackaged to be sold as a book again (and i think Upham's unsourced speculation is bogus to report in Misplaced Pages). Perhaps Upham and his naming stuff is worth one sentence to mention at the list-article, something like "For anyone interested in speculation about the reason for any lake's name, try this unreliable source: ." We have to agree to disagree about what amounts to an informative article. --Doncram (talk) 04:27, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I have discussed the article in this AfD. I have improved the article during the AfD ...I called out our guideline which guides us to keep lakes such as this. For your part you have targeted the article for deletion, and then you have been snarky and dismissive in your responses, ...you have doggedly pursued deletion despite any evidence presented or article improvements. You and I have created walls of texts to reiterate the same positions. You flatly reject the guideline in WP:GEOLAND#4. By now everyone knows your position and my position about the notability of this 97 acre lake. I do hope you do not diminish/fillet the article based on your determination to delete. You should realize we have other actual policies - (the following are not guidelines) WP:ATD WP:PRESERVE and WP:NOTPAPER. I am unwatching this now. Lightburst (talk) 04:56, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

I happen to be an "inclusionist" generally, and I do accept GEOLAND, ATD, PRESERVE, NOTPAPER. For my part i have really considered others' points of view and discussed the actual content of the suggested sources. I acknowledged points and was not inflexible ("dogged") in favor of one outcome. It would help the discussion if Lighthouse would acknowledge some things, say that the advertising/fishing stuff is bogus, which they have not. I would acknowledge there is room for disagreement about the merit of Upham's assertions (and one possible outcome which could be discussed would be to add mention of Upham to the row in the list-table, would that meet Lighthouse's wish for coverage of that?). I took suggestions for alternatives seriously and took a step to making "redirect to list" work out better (set up anchor). --Doncram (talk) 15:26, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

• Keep per GEOLAND, or at least WP:PRESERVE all information in some other way. SpinningSpark 16:10, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

I am ambivalent about replying, but: All the info, such as it is, can appear in the List of lakes table row. --Doncram (talk) 02:34, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

• Keep Misplaced Pages serves as a gazetter-thank you-RFD (talk) 15:24, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

Not so, not about lakes, not about lots of things. --Doncram (talk) 02:34, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

• Keep, as a well-attested geographic feature. The nominator makes speculative presumptions about the origin of the name. The name is cited to Warren Upham, whose work on Minnesota place names is cited over 3,000 times in Misplaced Pages. That source is undisputedly reliable. Kablammo (talk) 12:58, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

• Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota. "It's named after some guy who once lived nearby, and it is in a geological database." is not a basis for an article. Diffusing minimal content over a multitude of dubious, unexpandable microstubs is the worst way to present it. Merge it into a table of other individually non-notable landforms. Reyk _YO! 13:50, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

• Keep Articles for lakes are kept just like ones for small villages and other places as long as they are on a government database. If you want to change how things are done, then do so in one discussion and change the rules. No sense having the same arguments for thousands of articles like this all the time. Dream Focus 14:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Redirect to List of lakes in Minnesota per above. There just aren't enough sources to justify an article, and nothing substantive written by a human. buidhe 14:27, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota, and per Reyk It's named after some guy who once lived nearby, and it is in a geological database" is not a basis for an article. ——SN54129 14:29, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota. Obvious WP:ATD, and WP:GEOLAND very specifically does not make the same notability provisions for lakes as it does for villages: lakes/rivers etc are 'often notable provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist' and 'the number of known sources should be considered'. In other words, mere existence on a database is not sufficient. Hug 15:25, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Keep WP:Not paper WP:Preserve and WP:Before WP:GEOLAND#4. Named natural features are often notable, provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist. This includes mountains, lakes, streams, islands, etc. Geological Survey (U.S.). Branch of Geographic Names. Minnesota Geographic Names Information System: Alphabetical List. p. 12. Upham, Warren (May 1, 2001). Minnesota Place Names: A Geographical Encyclopedia. p. 12. ISBN 9780873513968. Why is this purge worth anybody's time? 7&6=thirteen (☎) 15:36, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Merge/Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota for reasons explained by others above. Sad to see the ARS Block Voting Machine again. – Levivich 15:55, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

  Most KEEP votes were done before this AFD was reopened and I and one other person from the ARS showed up on our own, there no posting there asking anyone to look at this situation. We both gave reasons for our votes. Two people who show up of a lot of AFDs showing up at a single one and agreeing something should be kept, is not a "block voting machine". Kindly assume good faith and focus on the discussion. Dream Focus 16:32, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

  This is one of those WP:AGF is not a suicide pact situations. Normally, yes, I'd WP:AGF that the block voting is coincidental, but a while back (for the VPR thread), I researched it for myself, and I no longer AGF about this. You, and three others, routinely !vote keep as a block, almost always with the same throwaway !vote rationals (like "Keep not paper, preserve, before"). There are other who participate in the blocks occasionally, but there are four core editors in this block. This is disruptive and it needs to stop. Every time I see it in an AfD I participate in, I will point it out, and hopefully you guys will eventually get the hint and change your approach to deletion discussions. – Levivich 17:21, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

I am not going to avoid !voting to help the encyclopedia just because it displeases you. Collegial following is allowed, as I have told you on your talk page. Your accusations assume bad faith. And now I see everyone I ever had friction with turning up to sink the AfD. It is a maddening situation made worse by your aspersions. Lightburst (talk) 17:35, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

• Merge or Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota as per WP:GEOLAND. There simply is just not enough sourcing to support an article.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:31, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Merge or Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota. There's not enough information to support a stand-alone article. --Jayron32 17:59, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Merge or Redirect to List of lakes of Minnesota; not enough content for a standalone article. OhNoitsJamie 18:54, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
• Keep I will be honest, I cannot be bothered to read every word above - (seems like a lot of words regarding the notability of a small lake in Minnesota). I think our WP:SNG is clear in regard to lakes. Per WP:GEOLAND. Named natural features are often notable...This includes...lakes, streams ...etc. We keep lakes. Wm335td (talk) 19:37, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

  Yeah but one of those "..." is provided information beyond statistics and coordinates is known to exist and another of those "..." is The number of known sources should be considered to ensure there is enough verifiable content for an encyclopedic article. If a Misplaced Pages article cannot be developed using known sources, information on the feature can instead be included in a more general article on local geography. For example, a river island with no information available except name and location should probably be described in an article on the river. I can't figure out why keep !voters citing GEOLAND aren't addressing these parts of GEOLAND. – Levivich 19:58, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

  How many sources do you want? The article has sources: one source dating back more than 100 years. It is a fact that we have less stringent requirements for GEOLAND. For instance - streams are kept, yet there is rarely any secondary coverage of streams. And we keep small villages and other places as long as they are populated or on a government database. This AfD seems like too much hand wringing over a small lake. Wm335td (talk) 20:12, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

  It's not the number of sources, it's their quality. These sources don't let us say anything about Bachelor Lake other than that it exists and its name is Bachelor Lake. As Reyk said, "'It's named after some guy who once lived nearby, and it is in a geological database' is not a basis for an article." In fact, the article has more information about another lake named Bachelor Lake, than about this Bachelor Lake. That's how little information we have about this Bachelor Lake. Populated areas, of course, are treated differently by GEOLAND than lakes and streams, and if there's other articles about non-notable streams, well, you know the rest. – Levivich 20:24, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

• Keep. Note that Warren Upham's book is cited in several hundred other Misplaced Pages articles for establishing the notability of other geographical locations. Furthermore, keeping this article would conform to our official set of rules on geographical features. This was noted by others to be covered in GEOLAND #4. Patiodweller (talk) 22:10, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

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