Talk:Justin McCarthy (American historian): Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 09:41, 20 January 2020 editSantasa99 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users26,114 edits →Misleading modifier concerning Hovanissian ← Previous edit		Revision as of 10:01, 20 January 2020 edit undoSantasa99 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users26,114 edits →Misleading modifier concerning Hovanissian Next edit →
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	{{u\|Santasa99}} can you provide the source that specifically refers to Hovanissian as merely an Armenian genocide historian? ] (]) 01:32, 20 January 2020 (UTC)		{{u\|Santasa99}} can you provide the source that specifically refers to Hovanissian as merely an Armenian genocide historian? ] (]) 01:32, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
	:Nowhere is stated that he is "merely an Armenian genocide historian", and we don't require reference for statement on obvious fact, phenomenons, itd - you, know, like saying that Armenian is, hm, Armenuan.--]] 09:41, 20 January 2020 (UTC)		:Nowhere is stated that he is "merely an Armenian genocide historian", and we don't require reference for statement on obvious fact, phenomenons, itd - you, know, like saying that Armenian is, hm, Armenuan.--]] 09:41, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
			::Yeah, maybe now it's a matter of consensus, now that ] showed up. We can now obscure from view such en elemental background info, because it gives a little wider angle in the perspective from which one evaluate.--]] 10:01, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 10:01, 20 January 2020

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Section on WW1 Massacres

The work of Justin Mc Carthy encompasses more than just massacres of Armenians and therefore the title should represent all the victims, not a select few. The title should remain WW1 massacres or something along those lines. (Zerk) 22:54, 16 Sept 2017 (UTC)

I agree with this, I have restored your edit.--INDIAN REVERTER (talk) 00:12, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Donald Bloxham

Is there any source that shows that Donald Bloxham is indeed a member of the International Association of Genocide Scholars as claimed in the article?--Moshe Avigdor (talk) 18:15, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

POV issues

The article lacks any neutral opinions or praise. It's basically a propaganda piece against him. Positive and neutral sources were likely removed by extremely POV editors in the past, these should be recovered.--Moshe Avigdor (talk) 18:15, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Compared to labeling authors? Multiple "new users" making the same edits, "new users" reverting my editing at different articles (i.e. harassment). Yeah this game will be over soon enough. --Kansas Bear (talk) 22:46, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

A page about a historian isn't meant to be 80% filled with criticisms of him is what I am saying.--Moshe Avigdor (talk) 22:51, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Guys, in the past i have prevented the deletion of the Ottoman period section and added some more information, as to what McCarthy's critics state about that part of his research being of merit. His Armenian Genocide denial issues however do dominate other parts of his research and hence citing the critique of it by other scholars has its place in the article. Its a complicated one. If some proposed changes on that aspect as mentioned by editors are undertaken, it ought to be done here in a piece by piece way otherwise it will more than likely result in an edit war -seeing things often go with such articles. Highlight a sentence or section and then we discuss it here. Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:01, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

The bulk of the body is just criticism listed after criticism. I would think that the actual contents of his works and what he actually discusses in his works should be the main bulk of the article about him. A bit of popular criticism is fine but looking through the sources I see only sources centering around genocide recognition advocating.--Moshe Avigdor (talk) 23:11, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that when a person has twisted the truth numerous times he deserves the truth to be twisted one more time in order to say he has twisted nothing? Cite sources, count them, and aggregate them. If it turns out that the praise comes from only one source although with numerous heads/mouths, and that all other sources criticise one's works, the criticism is well deserved. When discussing someone's POV one should account for his own POV, as well as for the POV of the other advocates. Does it surprise anyone that all his advocates are either Turkish or pro-Turkish? -- 80.111.182.53 (talk) 09:25, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

I mean isn't it obvious that some people don't care about building up a good article but all they care about is making sure that this page gives you the worst possible impression of the man, talking mainly about what other people said of him rather than what he said. I mean really, is this an article about him, or just a list of criticisms and misfortunes?--Moshe Avigdor (talk) 23:16, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

We can do it piece by piece, and its better that way. Some parts might or will remain as they are, others might get condensed depending on what gets proposed here and discussed. Do it that way, otherwise its easy to get into unnecessary issues. Just going by experience.Resnjari (talk) 23:32, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Ok, The most obvious issue is the formatting. There is several different sections but they are all really about the same thing. Section 2.1 and 2.2 are the about the same thing. Section 3.6 is not an evaluation and thus does not belong under section 3.--Moshe Avigdor (talk) 23:56, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Odd, how Moshe continued their edit warring, since they do not have consensus for their change(s).

The most obvious is the POV heading "Armenian Scholars", which is used to denigrate scholars based on their ethnicity. Even more obvious is the change in this sentence

"McCarthy's work has faced harsh criticism by some scholars who have characterized McCarthy's views as genocide denial."

Which Moshe has change to:

"McCarthy's work has faced harsh criticism by Armenian scholars who have characterized McCarthy's views as genocide denial."

Besides being a pathetic piece of POV editing and labeling the entire section "Armenian Scholars", Moshe has failed to check the sources covering the entire section much less this sentence since:

Auron, Yair, not Armenian
Charny, Israel W., not Armenian

Both are used as sources for the sentence Moshe has changed. As I said before POV editing.

Also included in the Armenian Scholars section:

Churchill, Ward
John A. Drobnicki
Richard Asaro
Samuel Totten,
Paul Robert Bartrop
Steven L. Jacobs
Mark Mazower
Colin Imber
Edward Tabor Linenthal
Michael Mann

The POV and wrongly labled section "Armenian Scholars" should be removed and the article restored to pre-editwarring status.--Kansas Bear (talk) 02:25, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Reverted, pure POV pushing.

Misleading modifier concerning Hovanissian

Santasa99 can you provide the source that specifically refers to Hovanissian as merely an Armenian genocide historian? Étienne Dolet (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Nowhere is stated that he is "merely an Armenian genocide historian", and we don't require reference for statement on obvious fact, phenomenons, itd - you, know, like saying that Armenian is, hm, Armenuan.--౪ Santa ౪ 09:41, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe now it's a matter of consensus, now that User:TU-nor showed up. We can now obscure from view such en elemental background info, because it gives a little wider angle in the perspective from which one evaluate.--౪ Santa ౪ 10:01, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

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