Misplaced Pages

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My editing on articles on "Jacques Pluss" and "National Socialist Movement (USA)."

I noted that my recent editing on both of the articles above was removed. It was decided that I seemed to be using the articles to publish my own websites or blogs. New information was contained in those sources, but I do respect Misplaced Pages's decision, do not wish to contest your removal of my editing, and I thank you for your attention. Sincerely, Dr. Jacques PLUSS.

You're not allowed to edit articles about yourself. Unless you're Jimbo Wales. Sharkface217 04:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not forbidden, but it is considered an undesireable conflict of interests. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 19:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this was taken from Wales article: Following this incident, Wales apologized for editing his own biography, which is practice generally frowned upon at Misplaced Pages. Wales said in the Wired interview, "People shouldn't do it, including me. I wish I hadn't done it." However, he continues to assert that he is the sole founder of Misplaced Pages. :) Noobeditor 00:55, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Are articles on shopping centers allowed on Misplaced Pages?

Hello all. I have been a Wikipedian for a couple of years now, and have edited many existing articles on local shopping centers in Phoenix, Arizona, where I live; and the San Francisco area, where I am originally from. Two of the articles on Phoenix malls were speedy deleted yesterday, citing lack of notability. The argument from the admin was that shopping malls in and of themselves are not appropriately notable since there are few scholarly "reliable secondary sources" available to support the text of each article (outside of local newspaper articles); and therefore such articles fall under the category of directory listings, which I have come to understand are not allowed on Misplaced Pages at all.

My argument in favor of inclusion would include the following assertions:

1. Shopping centers are a topic of great general local interest.
2. Shopping centers are critical in many ways to local economies. Neighborhoods (especially in the heavily suburban western United States) live and die based on the opening, closing, health, or lack thereof, of any one mall.
3. Shopping centers are notable examples of local architecture - at the very least, they generate debate on architectural merit.
4. Shopping centers are community gathering places and have become the modern "town square", making them relevant from a social and cultural standpoint.

As I stated on WP:DRV, it sounds like Misplaced Pages is moving towards eliminating ALL individual articles on shopping centers as they do not fit notability requirements as stated. If the articles I have questioned are deleted (and the consensus is currently leaning towards endorsement for deletion), the same must be done to about 75% of the rest, in the interest of fairness. If that is the case there could be hundreds of articles so targeted.

Can an official policy be formulated and publicly stated on the relevance, appropriateness, and/or notability of individual articles on shopping centers? If they are not allowed, that should be explicitly stated somewhere on an official policy page accessible to all editors.

Furthermore, is there a place where major announcements of page deletions and other policy implementation are made to all editors?

And lastly, can editors have the option to relocate such articles to other wikis or other resources on the Internet that may be a more appropriate home?

Thanks very much for reading.--Msr69er 12:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

• While I have not yet read the DRV, there is a general and a specific concern. The general concern about any topic is whether an article can be written from the neutral point of view. In order to do that, we require sources independent of the topic and its proponents. If the only sources for a topic are a combination of self-published material and relatively trivial and/or routine news coverage (the annual Black Friday stories on the TV news), then there is no way to write an NPOV article.

• With commercial ventures, the specific concern is that Misplaced Pages not be turned into a venue for advertising, and specifically to raise a Google ranking. There is the further awareness that a commercial establishment will employ advertising and press releases to raise its profile, so many editors try to be vigilent to identify puff pieces and unedited press releases.

• Now, some malls are unquestionably notable, just as some companies are unquestionably notable. The Mall of America is at least as famous as many small cities. Suburban Square is considered by some to be the first mall, and so might be a good candidate for an article. On the other hand, I can't think why anyone who doesn't live within twenty miles of the place would care about 99% of the malls in the U.S., and that includes the ones at which I shop.

• Your point about "fairness" is a bit off-the-mark. Each mall needs to be evaluated on its own merits, and since Misplaced Pages is not an advertisement, covering one mall does not mean that we have to cover all similarly-situated malls. There will always be marginal cases, and there is no way to ensure consistency across all of them. Moreover, consensus can change, so you will always find some inconsistency, because articles are written at different times. Robert A.West (Talk) 12:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

If the excellent criterion requiring the subject's relevance outside itself were generally applied, Misplaced Pages would be lightened of much less-than-marginal cruft. --Wetman 13:21, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:LOCAL is a useful guideline here. I would agree that many of these deserve coverage, but in most cases the potential for expansion is severely limited; merging into a more general article (or better, initially placing the information in a more general article) is often the best solution. -- Visviva 15:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

What impact has the mall had beyond its own community? A routine shopping outlet full of nearly franchise and chain stores would not merit conclusion, but there could be exceptions. The original Sherman_Oaks_Galleria was in several films and a hit song. Durova 16:18, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. It sounds like many of the individual articles that exist on malls may indeed be targets for eventual deletion in the future, if the guidelines I have learned about are to be applied on a case-by-case basis. I can tell you right now that several other similar articles to the ones I submitted to DRV, including a few more I have made edits to, do not pass the test. Perhaps this is the impetus for me to investigate alternative places on the Internet, maybe through Wikia, that might serve as a more useful home for this information, which I maintain has a high degree of validity. Please be assured that it is not my intention to come on Misplaced Pages and knowingly violate rules. Any suggestions on alternate places to go, if you know of any, would be of interest.--Msr69er 17:50, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My own opinion is that some malls are notable, but that doesn't mean that all of them are. A mall should be evaluated as any other business per WP:CORP. If it is genuinely notable, meaning that it's had non-trivial mentions in the news, or had a scholarly book written about it, or meets other listed qualifications, and if references which can be used to verify the information are listed in the article, then I can see keeping a Misplaced Pages article about it. If, however, an article has little information except, "This is a big mall in Cleveland", and there are no references aside from the mall's own website, then the article, in my opinion, should be nominated for deletion. I'd also point out that I've been seeing many new articles show up that seem to be being created by real estate developers who are using Misplaced Pages to promote a property which is up for sale. Per the request from the Wikimedia Foundation, we should be aggressive about getting rid of this kind of spam. --Elonka 19:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Did many of the recent mall deletions end up being a combination of Misplaced Pages:Speedy deletion criterion for unsourced articles + possible G11(spam)? In my case (Gurnee Mills), that's what it ended up being (there was a spammer who was peripherally involved in the article, turning it into a borderline G11 even though it wasn't necessarily G11 for most of its life; plus it had the forementioned no-sources issue, something we haven't yet been deleting articles for). It just would have been nice to have been given the 5 or 14-day warning to look around for sources before it was deleted. I've managed to find a few, and once I find one or two more, I'll recreate it from scratch. *shrug* Whatever. --Interiot 20:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Submit a deletion review for Gurnee Mills; I agree, that was a perfectly valid article that shouldn't have been speedily deleted (I always check the history of a G11 article before deleting; 42 edits from numerous articles means it isn't a single-purpose article, and at worst, should be sent through AfD). Make sure to drop me a line if you submit a DR. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed that there is a somewhat uneven coverage of shopping malls in Misplaced Pages. In particular, there are not articles for some of the largest malls in the world. I was somewhat surprised by this, given the importance of malls in commerce worldwide. There is also a variety of scholarly investigation of malls, and the evolution of their appearance over the years. I think frankly there should be an organized attempt to rectify this situation.--Filll 19:08, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You could always make a Shopping Malls Wikiproject...~user:orngjce223how am I typing? 22:14, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Malls don't completely fit into the mold of WP:CORP. Yes, they are almost always private, but they have, in many cases, replaced traditional downtown business districts. Furthermore, despite being private, they are generally open to the public, and are used for get-togethers. Many also have completely public spaces, often as a result of a tax agreement. For example, they might house a county's library or have meeting space that is rentable to the public. I thus don't see them as purely fitting into WP:CORP. -newkai t-c 22:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

My comment: wikipedia is not a city guide. Someone might develop an interest in "gas stations with friendly attendants", and start listing them on Misplaced Pages. There has to be some standard of appropriateness. Richiar 17:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe only famous malls should have articles made about them, such as the largest shopping mall in the world, which may be a point of intrest and tourist attraction. Noobeditor 00:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Afd's-Tfd's-Cfd's

I've recently engaged in a couple of template-for-deletion and category-for-deletion exercises. I won't go into what they were, but on both occasions, the subjects clearly did not meet WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV policy in any way. This was shown to be the case by more experienced users in the debate. However, enough of what I would describe as tendentious or misguided users were in support of these templates and categories to kick up a cloud of sand. It would seem to me that the closing admins took one look at the handful of keep votes, judged the subjects "no consensus" and these were kept. My questions are, how seriously does a closing admin take policy when considering votes for deletion compared simply to counting votes? And why would a "no consensus" automatically mean keep? Wouldn't it be wise to consider a "no consensus" to mean delete, particularly in the case of controversial templates that will likely inflame disputes?

Another way of putting this is, if enough goons voted to keep a category called, say, "People who smell", would that lead to a keep on the basis of "no consensus"? --Zleitzen 17:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Ideally the closing admin is supposed to look at the arguments presented rather than the simple Keep vs Delete counts. If you don't like the final decision you could ask the closing admin why they made the decision they made, they might answer your question. As for why a "no consensus" in a XFD would result in a keep, the idea is to make it difficult to actually delete things from Misplaced Pages. If it weren't difficult than encyclopedic topics that were controversial would suddenly find themselves up for XFD and deleted. On the flip side, if a WP:DRV is created a "no consensus" would result in the topic not being recreated in Misplaced Pages. --Bobblehead 17:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I too was of the belief that admins were supposed to look at the arguments. In the case of an article, it is the responsibilty of an editor to ensure an edit meets WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV or it will likely be deleted. However, in the Xfd's, it seems to work the other way round. The onus seems to be on the editors who wish to delete the material to gain universal agreement. If this is not forthcoming, which is unlikely due to a few votes by tendentious or naive editors, then we are left with a "no consensus" decision which keeps categories etc regardless of how much they violate the basic tenets. There seems to be a conflict between adhering to policy and adhering to consensus (or lack of in this case). With a lonely admin making the final call. --Zleitzen 17:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the application of the onus being on the submitter to delete an entire topic is rightly placed. An XFD is more a discussion of why the topic should be deleted, rather than why the topic should be kept. If the content of the topic violates the three pillars, then the discussion can be done via the topic's talk page or via the dispute resolution process. If consensus is there to remove content that violates the three pillars, then it can be removed and if certain editors become tendentious, they can be sent through the Misplaced Pages:Disruptive editing process.--Bobblehead 18:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

if enough goons voted to keep a category called, say, "People who smell", would that lead to a keep -- yes, but then if you go the other way then all it takes is for someone to nominate (say) Mathematics and 'enough goons' to vote to dump it and we have to get rid of it because there isn't a consensus to keep it! In the event of a dispute, we have to favor keeping things to dumping things or a few idiots can dump valuable data. Having a bunch of crap pages (which nobody in their right mind is going to link to or to search for) has very little negative impact on the encyclopedia...compared to great articles being dumped by an annoying few. SteveBaker 00:47, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

No, sorry, that's not how xFDs work (or, at least, are supposed to work). Consensus/majority vote is not the be-all and end-all of a closing admin's decision. The admin needs to take into consideration the merits of the various arguments. If everybody said, "Keep it, it's cool", and one person said, "But there are no sources", that one exception should prevail. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:36, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Admins are supposed to weigh the arguments, precedent and policy, and not just count "votes". As Misplaced Pages grows this will be more and more important. If xFD's are closed by "vote" counting there will be more and more gaming of the system. If people realize that one well stated argument can trump dozens of impassioned "votes" people will put more effort into discussion. This is the only way to counter vote spamming, and restore civility. More about this here. -- Samuel Wantman 09:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• There is an element of the question, however, that is not really being addressed, and that is - when an admin is dealing with this process, does s/he take actual policy into account at all? Many, many AfDs (for example) involve a lot of users arguing for a keep with no basis in policy and ignoring very clear and valid arguments that point out policy violations. Yet I rarely see an admin delete an article per policy when there is a "consensus" to keep it. Misplaced Pages may be built on consensus, but there are policies in place to ensure that a "consensus" of 15 people out of the 2.5million users can't preserve an article like List of fictional rooms.--Dmz5 06:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

• • There is a role for closer's judgment, but there is also a role for humility. I've seen admins err in the opposite direction in closing AfDs, and simply decide that they like one set of arguments better than another, when the discussion shows that numerous editors have come to very different thoughtful conclusions. Or they invent whole new arguments that weren't aired in the actual discussion at all -- as when an article on a Chinese college was recently deleted for failing to meet WP:N, a non-policy which no one had even broached in the discussion. -- Visviva 15:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Use of vernacular scripts in India bio articles - 2

I strongly agree with Parthi. This is the English-language Misplaced Pages. The native scripts can be used in special cases such as Satyameva Jayate. But using native scripts for every article (including Bollywood films is unnecessary). It only leads to stupid linguistic wars between Indian editors, and makes the intro look cluttered. In my personal opinion, all Indic scripts (except some cases such as Satyameva Jayate) should be removed. I wonder if we can have a poll/survey to solve this problem. utcursch | talk 05:24, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I must note here again: it is not the case that articles are being stuffed with non-English text. Rather, ONLY having the person's name in his/her native script is being questioned. (That's only two or three words at most). Next, the only dispute to arise here are *a few* bio articles. It would be wrong to remove script from thousands of biography articles just because of the edit dispute between a handful of users. I also want to note that Indian biography articles are not something *so special* that a different policy will apply to them. The same policy needs to apply to ALL biography articles, and again, it is totally wrong to remove the useful native language version of the names, *only* because of edit war in Bollywood related articles. Solutions to this problem should be to get a better policy at deciding what the script of choice would be (which is the point of disgreement here), rather than complete removal of native language names. Thanks. --Ragib 06:06, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This is not just an India-bio problem. As I said previously, I'm starting to see scripts multiply in Islam-related articles. Look at the start of Mecca, for instance. Someone adds Arabic, someone else adds Persian, someone else adds Turkish ... As for the suggestion that we just need a policy to decide what the one "script of choice" will be -- that doesn't seem to me to be possible. I'm arguing, not for REMOVING the scripts, but moving them to a box where they don't interrupt the article, and having as criteria not ethnic group, religion, or nationality (all of which will involve us in vicious internicine conflicts), but the existence of an article in the matching wiki. Ragib, this will mean that editors can't add Bengali script unless there's a matching article in the Bengali wiki. They'll have to write an article! Wouldn't that be fine? Zora 06:48, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that sounds ok to me. What I understand of your proposal is that, the scripts are to be removed from the header to a box somewhere else in the page. Fine by me. As long as the name in the native script is there, it should be fine. BTW, isn't it something to be discussed in WP_Biography rather than here? --Ragib 06:51, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

No. it's a stupid idea. The Bengali articles usually have no conflict or fierce edit wars over scripts. Plus, there will never a concensus to go all english and no scripts on wikipedia unless you get ton bots to remove them. Will the chinese like it if their script is removed from an edit war that has nothing to do with time. What about the Russians and the Greeks? I don't think so.--D-Boy 18:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

As the Mecca example shows, this goes beyond biography. As soon as one script gets added to an article, people who feel that THEIR language is being excluded start adding their scripts. We need a policy that applies to all articles. As said above, there would be exceptions for quoting texts. It's standard in scholarship to quote a text in the original so that those who can read it can check the translation. Perhaps we'd also need exceptions for dead languages that don't have wikis? Are there any dead languages for which WP supports a script but doesn't have a wiki? We have Latin and Sanskrit WPs, but not a Hittite or Sumerian one ... though, gee, the idea of a Sumerian wiki is immediately appealing :) Zora 07:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Why on earth is there turkish and farsi for an article such as Mecca? Islam was started by an arab in arabia. The sacred language the quran is arabic which is supposedly the truest way to read the scripture. Urdu shouldn't even be there. Maybe on articles such as Sufism they would have their native language from where it started.--D-Boy 18:25, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I've said lot about this before and many people here know my views. So my 2 cents/some quick points -

• Vernacular scripts to be avoided as far as possible.
• Sneaking in Hindi/Devanagari script into every possible 'India-related' article is reprehensible.
• Bollywood movies are Hindi movies, atleast thats the "official" line(Posters arent 'official', certifications by the 'official' censor body displayed at the start of every movie are). So Urdu script is superfluous on Bollywood articles.
• Vernacular script can be used where the ethnicity is beyond question. For e.g., for Chola tamil script is understandable and for Maratha Empire Marathi script is understandable, Jana Gana Mana is a Bengali song, so Bengali script is justified etc.,. But even if there is a semblance of confusion or dispute, I would support NOT using the controversial scripts.(Note: On JGM for e.g., Bengali is beyond question, it is the Hindi script that is controversial. So Bengali script should be allowed and Hindi thrown out.)
• Now, I know, that above examples cannot be used to generalise, so if the consensus is that vernacular scripts be banned altogether, I would support such a decision. Atleast that should stop people pushing Hindi on all India-related articles ridiculously in the garb of 'patriotism' or pushing 'Hindi' in the garb of 'Devanagari' on Sanskrit/Hindu related articles and such other random BS. Sarvagnya 19:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

And what historic indic article that are located in pakistan? What scripts would we be able to add one those? Devangari? What about article like Sindh?--D-Boy 21:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I take it you meant "what about". Can you tell me why on earth we need Devanagari on Sindh? Devanagari is 'nothing' as far as Sindh is concerned. The only scripts justified on Sindh is the Sindhi script(first and foremost) and then may be... may be just Urdu script because, I believe Urdu is the national lang of Pak(even then, I am not sure that is a good enough reason). Sarvagnya 22:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

But Sindhi as well as punjabi and kashmiri are also written in devangari for their written langauges.--D-Boy 00:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Good, you may note that Hindi is one of two official central government languages in India (the other is english, which falls outside this discussion). Therefore, Hindi should be on every India related page. Of course using a logical argument like this makes me a "POV-pushing nationalist", "Hindutva bigot", "whitewasher" in the eyes of more than one user.Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Good, you may also note that Official language != National language. India has no national language. And it is for a reason that the govt., has chosen to call it merely 'official' language and not 'national' language. And did u notice the may be.... maybe just in my above message? And in any case, if it ever came to a vote, I'd never vote for using it on the concerned country's pages and you know it. It is as ridiculous as, say, plastering an image of the peacock and the tiger on every Indian wildlife page simply because they are the national animals. huh. Sarvagnya 06:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I still don't understand why these scripts are so necessary here in English Misplaced Pages. Editors putting theirs views on Bollywood songs and film names suggest that it is for exact pronunciation. If it is mentioned only for accurate pronunciation, what purpose does it serve if most users can't read that script? I can't read and understand any script other than English, Tamil and basic Hindi. I can't understand if Rabindranath Tagore is pronounced as such or otherwise in Bengali. So are many other scripts for many other situations. If accurate pronunciation is to be specified, let us use standard IPA. I think every one can learn a single pronunciation format (if needed) than 100 other scripts from all parts of the world. This situation may seem specific to articles related to Indian languages as of now, but this is Misplaced Pages-wide issue. As mentioned above, local scripts do nothing more than appearing as gibberish to non-local readers. Believe me, people don't care much about exact pronunciation because of their inherent incapability to pronounce other languages so well. No matter how we try, foreign language speakers can nowhere be close to pronunciation level of native speakers. So let us just get rid of those scripts completely! -- Chez 04:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this will help you pronouce it: Misplaced Pages:Indic transliteration scheme. I son't know tamil but it's interesting seeing the script of Chola dynasty in tamil script. Seein the script exposes you to different writing systems.--D-Boy 08:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

By that logic, people should start inserting all kinds of scripts in all the articles -- that'll expose readers to all kinds of writing systems. This is simply unnecessary. It doesn't serve any purpose and leads to stupid edit wars among overly fanatic linguistic patriots. I'm not opposed to vernacular scripts because of edit wars. I'm opposed to them because I feel they do not serve any purpose (except in cases such as Satyameva Jayate). They also make an article less readable. Look for example, at the intro of Rajnikanth article. The Marathi/Kannada/Tamil scripts are not there to make the article useful, they are present simply because of fanatic Marathi/Kannada/Tamil linguistic patriots. Why do we need a person's name in his/her native script (Indian or otherwise)? Why do we need a place's name in the native script? This is English Misplaced Pages. User:Chezhiyan has pointed out rightly -- they're certainly not useful for pronunciation. If people are willing to learn, they'll learn IPA instead. Like Zora has suggested, we need a policy on this. I think it will be nice to put different proposals and then have a voting (like Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)/Sidebar redesign/Final draft vote). utcursch | talk 08:56, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Utcursch, that's a useful link. I think I can write up my policy proposal, but coming up with a sample infobox will challenge my feeble coding skills. Anyone willing to work with me on designing an infobox template? I think the other proposals have been to eliminate all scripts (no infobox) and to keep one script, which is to be the script most closely associated with the subject of the article (how "most closely associated" is determined should be defined, otherwise the edit wars will continue). Is there anyone at all in favor of the present policy -- anyone can put any script anywhere and then we have an edit war? Zora 18:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Then why is important to Vladir putin's name in Russian or Mao Zedong's name in CHinese by that same logic? Or have Mecca in Arabic? If you're going to go all english, then you should do it for eery single article. Also you should write your policy at Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (Indic-related articles), if you're going to make one. Maybe people should have input on it and a concensus should be reached. Voting is not what wikipedia is about. Also, the Koreans have a really good infobox for their hangul scripts.--D-Boy 18:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we need a policy that applies to every single article, not just the South Asia or India articles. Zora 19:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

My 0.02 pence.... Firstly i couldnt care less if scripts are there or not. I'd support removal of vernacular scripts ONLY if all non-English scripts are removed simultaneously. Indian articles shouldnt be held to different standards. Re:Bollywood it is really idiotic to add Urdu to Bollywood articles ad hoc, more so for Bollowood bios (Kajol article for example had Urdu but no Marathi!). Unless the said movie uses stresses on Urdu (as understood in post-1947 context) i see no point in adding urdu script to articles like say Lage Raho. File:England flag large.png अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 18:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd propose removing all scripts to an infobox. Your declaration that no change should be allowed unless all articles can amended simultaneously ignores reality: we can't amend a substantial portion of 1.5 million articles simultaneously. It's going to take time to educate editors to use the infobox for new articles and to revise the old ones. If the proposal to use an infobox passes, let's first have a period just for moving scripts; we don't apply the criterion (is there an article in the matching wiki) immediately. However, unmatched scripts should show up as red links. We have a year during which any scripts can be added to the infobox and none deleted. At the end of that year, we start deleting the redlinked ones. We should give ample time for editors to create matching articles. Zora 19:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's an example of the korean's infobox: Template:Koreanname

The article Kalarippayattu also has good info box although it's not parameterized.--D-Boy 20:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm in favour of moving all scripts from the lead to an infobox placed at the bottom of the article. This will certainly improve the readability of the article. However these silly ethnic edit wars will continue in the infobox area. Parthi 21:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't really see the need for an additional infobox. I think most of us agree that the scripts add nothing significant to an article, especially for the millions who don't read that script. I say, just get rid of them altogether. IPA/ITRANS is all we need. Gamesmaster G-9 23:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

By the way, this discussion has gone on for ages. I think we should attempt to reach a consensus now. It would help if everyone wrote down their exact position on the issue in one line. Gamesmaster G-9 23:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Is it within the rules of the "game" for Dangerous-Boy to be posting messages on the talk pages of people whom he believes might support him, asking them to come vote here? See:

• .

Technically, no it is not. Misplaced Pages:Spam#Canvassing.--Bobblehead 02:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Most of those people were involved in the discussion. Just making sure they get there input in.--D-Boy 02:03, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It is generally poor etiquette to notify only your side of the argument (which I'm not saying you're doing), even if they were all involved in the discussion. It tends to skew consensus in a certain direction. If you feel the need to canvas you should hit the proponents for all sides of the disagreement or make a single post on an article that they all are involved in. Rampant vote stacking can be considered a disruption and can get you an involuntary wikibreak. --Bobblehead 02:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed...>_>--D-Boy 02:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Votes

YES

1. Yes for (only) the native script, in the lead or at least somewhere else in the page. (lead/box/wherever). --Ragib 00:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
2. Yes for (only) the native script, in the lead or at least somewhere else in the page. (lead/box/wherever).--D-Boy 01:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
3. Yes for relevant scripts, in the lead of the page.--Anupam 01:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
4. Yes for (only) the native script, in the lead or at least somewhere else in the page. (lead/box/wherever). Hindu stuff (unless purely non-Sanskrit) always in Nagari, and bios in the person's ethnicity.Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
5. Yes - as far as the stuff I know something about - I would like Sanskrit and Pali in Buddhist articles. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 04:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

#Yes I strongly dislike IPA/ITRANS for correct pronunciation, so I prefer the native scripts to stay. Gizza 05:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Yes Native Scripts should be there for Bios. Most other common stuff should have Nagari script. --NRS | /_M\ 06:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
   Comment Me too.--D-Boy 04:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
2. YES for native script. 'relevant' scripts should be added only after consensus. Sarvabhaum 11:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
3. Yes for (only) the native script (the language in which the word or its native equivalent is most often used). For example, if its "Krishna", the term should be in sanskrit, and if its "thambi", the language should be tamil; for acchan, the language should be malayalam and so on. ­ If its going to be more than one script, my vote is "no" ॐ Kris (☎ talk | contribs) 14:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
4. Yes for the inclusion of only appropriate scripts in the article.-Bharatveer 14:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
5. Yes for native script, and relevant scripts after consensus. In the case of Badal Roy (a musician from Bangladesh), the inclusion of such allows, in a "Rosetta Stone"-like manner, one to know the native spelling and to search for websites and photos about the person on websites in the original language or (especially helpful in the absence of a comparable interwiki article in that language). Putting the name in native script in a box to the right side would be a fine idea. This is already standard for East Asian articles (see Jin Hi Kim for an example). Badagnani 17:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
6. Yes for native script and relevant scripts. I'm not opposed to the idea of putting it in a box. And I'm not against using IPA as well (not instead). BernardM 21:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
7. Yes native scripts MUST be kept. This is relevant information for an encyclopedia. See the guidelines I have attempted to devise at Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Indic) for when to use what. The work on this has stalled because of other commitments, but someone's welcome to restart it! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
8. Yes for native script, and relevant scripts after consensus. The Rabindranath example in the previous section convinced me sufficiently although I think in such cases there's also a scope to include both native script and IPA so that those like myself who can't read the native script get some idea of the missing point. While this is the English wikipedia, this appears to be something which adds considerably to the value of the article to many readers and we already do it for Eastern European articles (which I can understand the script for). Orderinchaos78 17:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

NO

1. No vernacular scripts in the lead. Parthi 00:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC) withdrawing my vote pending proper policy formulation. - Parthi 22:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
2. No vernacular scripts anywhere for biographical pages. Only IPA/ITRANS. Gamesmaster G-9 00:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
3. No scripts for bios. Is too devisive. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:29, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
4. No vernacular scripts, whether in biography or any other pages. It serves no purpose (refer this) and can prove a fertile source of many types of dispute, as we have seen in a dozen cases in just these past few days. IPA is more than sufficient, if pronounciation is such a concern. ImpuMozhi 03:38, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
5. No Unless the page is filled with twenty scripts, there will be people who can't read it. I don't think IPA/ITRANS is much better though because even fewer people understand it (not referring to Wiki editors but to the entire subcontinent). Gizza 22:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I don't think we should vote on this as an India-only issue because as people said it affects Chinese and all other languages. I think we should make a proper proposal like somebody suggested and discuss it in the context of all languages and scripts. It is unfair to have different rules for India and different rules for other countries. Also I don't understand why you say we should use ITRANS. I think ISO 15919 or IAST are the proper things to use. Nobody uses ITRANS in serious articles outside email or places where you only can use ASCII. -- Ponnampalam 01:26, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I recommended ITRANS over IAST, because I felt it would be convenient for other scripts (Gurmukhi, Gujarati) as well. I have no specific bias in its favour. Gamesmaster G-9 02:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Itrans looks horried and it's not academic standard. It was designed when computers couldn't cope with IAST and other odd characters. I personally recommend ISO 15919 because it can be applied to all Indic scripts in India. See Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Indic). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 15:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry to not have read the entire discussion and place my opinion. Probably the problem is due to abuse of regional scripts. Anything that is good and helpful would not be objected by any except by ill-motivated editor. My feeling is 1) Any regional script should be allowed within limits. 2) With Muslim's Jihad movement, there remains a scope of continuous abuse of a policy so there must be a body of editors/admins to monitor. If, the official body finds abuse of policy, the members should have tools to change and protect the page. 3) My feeling is use of national language in limits will be advantageous. 4) I disagree that since other encyclopedias do not use regional scripts, Misplaced Pages should also not use the same. 5) The policy not to include regional language would also be abused by objecting to necessary inclusions. 6) The grievances are going to remain, instead why not have a body who would concentrate in preventing abuse particularly between hostile societies? Pl. bear with me, if I am wrong. swadhyayee 05:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: I feel this voting is being done in a hurry. This issue spans a large variety of articles. We should first make an effort to atleast broadly classify articles and then vote for each type one at a time. Bios certainly are a different class from say geography/history related articles. I dont see any harm using native scripts on articles like, say, Chola, Hoysala etc.,. There is no scope for any disputes on these articles. The disputes are really mostly on the articles where Hindi-pushers want Hindi scripts or the Hindi-pushers themselves run into Urdu-script supporters. On bios, I support using the script with which the person is most widely associated. Rajnikanth for example, should have only Tamil because that is what he's most widely seen as being associated with. Hindu/Sanskrit articles belong equally to whole of India and historically(until fairly recently), devanagari was never the script for Sanskrit. So, on these articles, we should just do with IPA. More later. Sarvagnya 06:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Response to Comment: And yet, if the pro-vernacular people have their way, then Rajnikanth would have his name written in Devanagri because his ethnicity is Marathi. Then someone else will add Kannada because he lived in Bangalore. And lets not forget the Hindi-fundamentalist who believe that Indian=Hindi. I have no doubts that people will indulge in non-stop linguistic one-upmanship. Gamesmaster G-9 07:08, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. I agree that this voting is being done in hurry and is completely against Misplaced Pages:How to create policy. There are no formal proposals. There is lack of consensus among editors who've voted Yes/No. Some of those who've voted yes have done so only for the native script, while some others for the relevant scripts etc. Those who've voted No are also divided on use of vernacular scripts in the lead section or anywhere in the article. Such kind of voting is evil. First of all we need to put all the proposals (no use of vernacular scripts/use of only the native script/use of all relevant scripts etc.) at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Use of vernacular scripts with proper reasons. The tag it with {{proposed}}, post the link to proposal at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy), Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Policies. The discussions can be carried out on the talk page. As per Misplaced Pages:Discuss, don't vote, these proposals should be extensively discussed on the talk page. If there is no clear Misplaced Pages:Consensus, then we can have a straw poll at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)/Use of vernacular scripts/Vote (like Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals)/Sidebar redesign/Final draft vote). A policy-related poll should be carried out only after including it in Misplaced Pages:Current surveys. utcursch | talk 09:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Completely agree with Utcursch. That's why I haven't "voted." The call for a poll was premature, was interpreted as being a binding YES or NO vote (but YES or NO on what?), and has already led to electioneering. Part of the murkiness here is that the script issue is a cover for yet another, even broader and more divisive issue: the use of Misplaced Pages for national/ethnic/religious tagging. The placing of a script seems to be interpreted by many of the editors here as a claim that the scripted person/thing/whatever "belongs" to the group symbolized by the script. IMHO, we need to stamp down hard on this use of non-Roman scripts as gang signs, equivalent to spray-painting " rulez!" on public spaces. Zora 16:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Response to Comment - When I asked for everyone to state their position in one line, I didn't intend for it to be a vote. I had hoped that this would help list out all the points for and against in a neat way. Unfortunately, people are just copy-pasting each other's positions. Gamesmaster G-9 20:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• CommentAnother vote! you have got to be kidding. I told you in the beginning not to make a vote about this! It's not the way of wikipedia. Even utcursh stated voting is evil. yet Parthi went ahead and did it anyway. The policy for the yes votes are pretty consistant. Also, you'll never get rid of all the chinese, all the russian, all the arabic scripts and so on. I'd really like to see you try to get rid of the arabic scripts because the muslim guild will fight you until the bitter end about such an issue.--D-Boy 18:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• Comment:Votes are pointless in this respect. I agree with Zora. Hornplease 19:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Deleted articles

I would like to know what articles I've edited have disappeared. I know Kate's tool used to do this job. But may be for privacy reasons, it no longer works. I understand privacy is important, but I just want to know only myself's deleted edits. I always suddenly found some of my edits disappear and nobody (the one who deleted it) tells me before. Special:Contributions without a username specified is not used at this time, so how about make this special page show the current users' full edit history including deleted ones? I've submitted a request at http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8017 . Yao Ziyuan 10:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Please give us specific examples. You should check out wikipedia's guidelines for speedy deletion and wikipedia's guidelines for proposed deletions and wikipedia's articles for deletion discusions. Of the 3, only speedy deletion generally happens without your knowledges. PRODS and AFDS (the other 2 deletion methods) all leave tags on the page for a minimum of 5 days, meaning that you should have the opportunity to correct them. Speedy Deletes are done only in a very narrowly defined set of examples. Please read the speedy deletion guidelines I put above; even speedy deletes generally take a day or so to happen, so as long as you check into Misplaced Pages once every few days, you should find them and be able to stop or comment on the. In addition, you can contact the admin that deleted your article, or you can request a deletion review to overturn any deletion. Hope that helps... Again, please give us specific examples of the articles you found deleted, so we can comment perhaps on why they were? --Jayron32 18:12, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it would be helpful for deleted edits to show up in a user's contribution history, not just so users can see for themselves, but without that contribution history visible talk page warnings are often inexplicable and vandalism histories undocumented. How possible is it to implement this change? Postdlf 18:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I guess the problem with that is in deciding what constitutes a 'deleted edit'. A literal revert of the article might be easy to detect - but if someone deletes an entire paragraph except for a couple of words - then writes an entire new paragraph using those words in a completely different way - then they effectively deleted your edit - but it would be hard for automated software to figure out the difference between that and a simple typo/spelling/grammar correction. Personally, I think setting up your preferences so that every article you edit is automatically watched - then patrolling your 'my watchlist' is the best you can do. SteveBaker 19:33, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

No, by "deleted edits" I mean edits that are made to articles that are subsequently deleted. When an article is deleted, none of the edits made to that article show up in user contribution histories. Postdlf 19:36, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh man, I'd love to see this feature. EVula // talk // ☯ // 19:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if the edits should necessarily be visible (except to admins), but it would be quite helpful to know that they existed. --Improv 21:28, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The content of the edits themselves shouldn't be visible to everyone, but the fact that the edits were made should be. Think of all the times you delete nonsense such as profanity or an attack page and treat it as a "test" due to the user's lack of prior contributions, when the deleted history would show that it's actually persistent, reposted vandalism? Postdlf 00:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Per Postdlf's comment, I agree that the contents of deleted edits shouldn't be visible to everyone. In fact, I'd go one further and suggest that the other details of the deleted edits should remain hidden except from admins—one of the most common reasons for deletion of a page revision is that it contains personal information or gross libels; sometimes that information is in the edit summary, or even in a deliberately offensive username.

If we could have something that pops up on an editors Special:Contributions page when an admin visits, that would be ideal. Right now when I visit an article that has deleted revisions in its history, I see a View or restore 3 deleted edits? message above the rest of the article's history. I'd be thrilled to have something similar that appeared (to admins) on editors' Contributions pages: View this editor's 168 deleted edits... or similar. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There was a tool for this here, but it is toolserver dependent, and the toolserver isn't currently working for the English Misplaced Pages. Prodego 02:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, this is the email that used to be linked from River(Kate)'s archived-contributions counter. Now that we have oversight though, I've been wondering if there's a chance that deleted edit summaries, etc. might be visible again, on-wiki? --Interiot 02:34, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the edit summaries should be available, but it does seem like it would be worthwhile to see a placeholder in a user's contribution history for deleted edits that listed the date, the page and minor edit flag. —Doug Bell  19:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I think no information (other than perhaps the number of deleted edits) should be available to non-admins, but the whole information (pages and edit summaries) should be available to admins so a block or unblock decision can be based on all of the user's contributions, not just those that happen to be easily accessible. Having to note the names of all bad pages created by an editor somewhere for later review is work that should be better done by software. Kusma (討論) 12:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I have an article on my watch list with an incorrect name and is now deleted. It appears a vandal had edited the article and then moved it to a nonsensical name -- therefore the article was probably speedily deleted without proper checking. I don't know know what the page was originally about, since the history is now gone, and my watchlist is too large to remember every article individually. This is a loophole in the system, and allows vandals to get legitimate articles deleted without editors of those articles noticing until it's too late (deleted articles don't appear on my watchlist changes, so I never noticed the deletion). falsedef 11:26, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I recently had a page deleted within 3 days of creation. It was Heywood-Wakefield, a major business force in furniture in the 19th and early 20th C., particularly in wicker and rattan. They are no longer in business, and consequently somewhat invisible on the interenet outside of antique dealers, etc. I created a stub because I was aware of its existence and historical importance. I anticipated those with more knowledge than I would flesh it out. I thought this was the WP community's goal - group knowledge. I think I detect a move toward only allowing articles that are mostly complete when created, with references satisfactory to an admin who may be unaware of the article's significance because it doesn't exist in the "internet age". I don't know how to find the person who removed it, and can't rebut the removal. Wake 03:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

You can rebut the deletion — there is a formal process for that. See Misplaced Pages:Undeletion policy. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 03:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try that. Wake 03:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

There are actually two choices - you can appeal a deletion, or you can simply ask for a copy of the deleted article to be put into your user space (this is called userfication). For a stub, I'd recommend doing the latter, by posting a request at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review#Content review. Getting a copy of a deleted article is an administrative action; you don't have to convince anyone of the merits of that article, as is the case with a formal deletion review, which is similar to an AfD. Once you have a copy of the article in your user space, you have time to improve it, and then you can place it back in the article namespace, where it is much more likely to survive on its own. John Broughton | Talk 13:54, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Is Misplaced Pages User friendly?

Personally, and I'm fairly new around here, I don't think it is. Ever tried to put together a piece of furniture made in China? Or your once-a-year tax return yourself? Or filed something in court as a pro se? Or invested on Wall Street without help? Or built a house? Some are well explained and some are not. Wiki is not. Whenever a procedure is explained by a professional (an admin - hereinafter "pro"), they are the last people to explain highly complex convention to newbies. They helped write the rules, and stay fresh most every day. The newbies get to check something out once in a while, and have to re-educate themselves every time.

Wiki rules: It should not be necessary to spend hours searching for something. My examples: I needed to find out why a subject wasn't accepting a link. I couldn't find the answer, until a pro figured it out; the page heading used the wrong apostrophe. Another example: I wanted to use a tag to move an article to merge into another. I needed to quickly find the right tag. But "tags" are listed as "templates". I needed to find the right listing of sample tags. Took me an hour of re-education to find out don't "move" without permission, but "merge into" is OK. And why are "discussion" sections on the article page ALWAYS referred to as "talk", when the term talk is used in other ways? Why not just say to use the discussion page, since that is what it is called? And what is a "dab", still don't know, haven't looked? And when I have a question, why can't I click on something that will let me search for the answer the way I can search for an article? Am I just to be treated as dumb, and then be patronized by a pro who will give me an answer, pointing out by inference that I haven't checked carefully to see it wasn't answered somewhere in several help and editing pages?

Please don't get me wrong. I am second to none in my admiration of Misplaced Pages, what it does and what it can do. I would like to think that the culture will spread through the world and make it a better place. Especially I like the NPOV mandate, a concept foreign to all human nature, yet a sine qua non if the human race is to survive beyond the next generation. It can be taught and learned. At the moment Misplaced Pages is off-putting to inquirers and it needn't be. It is so much more than an Encyclopedia, although I suspect that there are pros who disagree and I think that the founder would agree.

So, I propose that a newby help page be devised for newcomers, and for vets short of time for review every day. No, it is not the current "simplified cheat sheet" in its present form, because it would be much longer, and hold a multitude of sections with every type of listed example. It would be full of cross references and would be kept all in one place. And it would be devised by non pros, evaluated by non-pros, but with the help of pros. Another possibility is that the current cheat sheet be filled with blue links to lists of examples, and the lists would be blue linked to explanations. I would bet that it will be the first place most people will go. Oh sure, I will be told that somewhere it's already being done, a project page perhaps, and I didn't notice. JohnClarknew 23:10, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:New contributors' help page links to various places new users can get questions answered quickly. Personally, I find IRC to be a great place to get quick answers.

"Dab" is a disambiguation page. Sometimes it's used in edit summaries to indicate that an ambiguous link is being fixed. Misplaced Pages:Edit summary legend lists other terms that are often seen in edit summaries.

I've pondered the "discussion"/"talk" issue before... I assume it comes down to the fact that namespaces should be as short as possible, especially "Talk", because it gets tacked onto everything (eg. "Category talk:", "Misplaced Pages talk:", "Template talk:", ...) On the other hand, it's not really for random forum-like chit-chat, it's for discussion of improvement of the article, so the external face gets the word "discussion". That's what I assume, anyway.

Generally, if you need help, just ask somebody. It's true that there are a ton of things to learn, so it makes it difficult to point to a single page that will answer all your questions. --Interiot 00:35, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there are a lot of inconvenient "conventions" that have grown up over time. The tag that says "discussion" does indeed lead to discussions - but it's called "talk" by most users because that's what it always used to be called before it was decided that "discussion" was more friendly. Sadly - the result of trying to make something more friendly and less confusing actually made matters worse! That's a real problem in lots of areas. It took me forever to realise that an edit summary "dab" meant "disambiguate" - there is nothing in Misplaced Pages software that makes things be that way - it's just a common convention that saves people a lot of typing. Most of the problems you list are not due to Misplaced Pages policies - or the software behind MediaWiki - they are simply due to the fact that there are about 10,000 human beings here - and when humans get together like that they invent jargon - develop unspoken rules - that just how people are. Attempting to document those quirks, conventions, recommendations, policies and downright RULES is an ongoing process - but like everything else around here, that's a community effort too. Whilst it would be highly desirable to fix it somehow, that's a hard problem because we have to fix humans - and we don't know how to do that! It's also a moving target. Having said that, we're all adaptable - and a vast majority of contributors rapidly adapt and 'fit in'. Take heart in the fact that a couple of million articles have been written despite the quirks and weirdnesses. SteveBaker 03:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• A few well-placed redirects should help solve the tag issue you described and some others. The problem is that a lot of new users fail to look for information in the right place and if we don't know where they are looking instead, we can't make sure they are shown to the right spot. - Mgm| 10:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whenever you get lost, stick a {{helpme}} tag on your User Talk page, and hopefully, an old hand will come by to help you. User:Zoe|(talk) 17:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

One thing that seems particularly silly to me is that there are a bunch of templates that say things like "Please see the relevant discussion on this article's ]". If "discussion" is the public name of the thing, why don't they all say "discussion page"? Actually I think the only place it's called a "discussion" page is the link to it from the article. 207.176.159.90 10:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I remember how long it took me to figure out how templates worked! I wouldn't have known to search for template, I was just seeing curly brackets and wondering what on earth I was supposed to be doing if I found a mistake. I also didn't sign contributions for a month, and then was manually typing a nick and date, because the section telling one how to do so is located well below the bottom of the edit page. Strangely, once I figured out a few things though, it all fell into place and now I talk with people regularly, know many of the WP: shortlinks and policies and the like, etc. Orderinchaos78 17:21, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I think an index might help, though of course it could end up being just one more possible place to look among many. As far as I know, there isn't such a thing (there are directories, but that's more limited). I have a draft at User:John Broughton/Editor's Index to Misplaced Pages, for anyone interested, and of course if something like this already exists (or has been attempted and dropped), information on that would be much appreciated. John Broughton | Talk 23:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:MALL, a proposed notability guideline

User Edison gave me a suggestion for notability guidelines for shopping centers based on one he knows of, WP:CONG, for religious congregations. I used that as a template to write Misplaced Pages:Notability (shopping malls), based on Edison's direct suggestion, and added some of my ideas and referenced WP:NOT, WP:CORP, WP:NOTE and WP:RS. Thanks, Edison and I hope this is a good next step in the shopping mall discussion. I look forward to everyone's ideas, edits, rewrites and comments.--Msr69er 01:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is a separate subguideline necessary? —Centrx→talk • 02:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue I am going to raise with this is the same one I have raised with the numerous other individualised notability guidelines: Malls do not have special issues that cannot be resolved via the Primary Notability Guideline(multiple, nontrivial references from reliable sources). Several mall AfDs have been handled poorly IMHO (such as mass-listing all malls rather than individually listing those that fail the PNC). However, there does not appear to be a "special problem" that makes shopping malls inherently harder to apply the PNC too. Either reliable sources (and newspapers ARE RELIABLE SOURCES) exist from which we can populate the article with verifiable, non-trivial facts, or they don't. If we can't get notable information from reliable sources, it fauls the PNC, and thus should be deleted, even if it is a mall. The places where guidelines exist that extend notability beyond the PNC (such as WP:CORP) contain secondary criteria ONLY in very narrowly defined areas, and ONLY to address a specific-problem which cannot be adequately solved by the PNC. I see no compelling evidence that malls are special in any way vis-a-vis their notability, and so I see no reason why the guideline should not contain one criteria only: A shopping mall is notable if it has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the mall itself. Period. Full stop. If it does not meet this criteria, we have no means to expand the article, and thus it must be deleted. --Jayron32 05:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to add to that previous comment that I have seen quite a few mall AfD debates (and I started a couple) where defenders come in and say "Aha! Sources have been found, see new improvements on the article". Most often these sources turn out to be local news article stating either "Yesterday, a man got arrested in the X shopping mall", "Yesterday, Santa Claus arrived at shopping mall X" or "Starbucks opens in shopping mall X". I think it's important to realize that these are not the kind of sources we are looking for as they have absolutely no relation to the content of the articles. As we all know, the content is always "Shopping mall X is at the corner of Maple & Elmwood and has a JC Penney". That makes us the Yellow Pages and, deservedly so, a laughing stock as an encyclopedia. Pascal.Tesson 06:15, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Excellent points, but none of these are problems unique to malls. Trivial information still cannot be used to establish notability. It still doesn't speak to any special necessity to this (or any of the other NUMEROUS) individualized guidelines. The PNC still squashes these sources, and can still be used to refute these sources as trivial. --Jayron32 06:32, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm all for using the PNC for malls as well as most other things. I just want to point out that the keep argument used in most AfDs is the "malls are inherently notable" blanket. "Notability" as is (or should be) used in AfD debates is not a measure of the worthiness of malls as institutions in a community but the confirmed or at the very least suspected existence of meaningful reliable sources supporting the content. And if the only meaningful verifiable content we have is a list of stores then this should go per WP:NOT. Pascal.Tesson 06:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

And those comments should meet with the response: "Nothing is inherently notable. If you wish to prove notability, provide sources per WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:NN. Otherwise, I think we are in complete agreement. --Jayron32 06:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Actually there are things that are inherently notable: US presidents, Olympic Games, etc, etc. The key point is whether there's enough information available to make a solid article. There are still people who have no clue what type of information belongs in an article, so a guideline that explains it, as notability guidelines tend to do, would be quite helpful. - Mgm| 10:28, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually, they a US president is only notable because all 43 of them have each been the subject of multiple references in reliable, third-party sources. All 15 gajillion shopping malls are not subject to the same level of coverage, thus all 15 gajillion shopping malls are not inherently notable. Nothing is. Notability test are ALWAYS to be applied to EVERY article on a case-by-case basis by READING the article, and DOING RESEARCH to establish if a VERIFIABLE, NON-TRIVIAL article can be written about the subject. If it can, it is notable. But the fact that any one article can pass this test does not transfer such quality to any other article merely by sharing some arbitrary commonality, like they are both about shopping malls. Notability is Not a Blanket.

Malls are not quite the same as corporations; they are venues where corporations rent space for stores. It is like trying to judge concert halls under guidelines for bands. A possible specific guideline for malls would be, for instance, to find an industry organization defining a regional mall as onwe with 1,000,000 square feet of leasable space, and using that to avoid endless debate over a smaller mall having an article if it has no other historic or architectural claim to fame. They do not quite fit in as local places WP:LOCAL either, since they may draw from a large area. A guideline lets the debating get done and perhaps a consensus arrived at in one forum rather than be repeated starting fresh in 1000 AfDs. I like to have some bright-line guides to quickly allow me to decide whether an article should be kept or deleted, so more time can be spent researching the borderine cases. Same for schools, professors, etc. Edison 21:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Malls are not quite the same as corporations or places of local interest, but they're close enough. We shouldn't create guidelines with this narrowly specific application. I'd suggest a subheading in WP:CORP and/or WP:LOCAL. (Radiant) 11:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the idea of a subheading. I see the problems with having a million notability guidelines, but it's very helpful to have specific guidelines for topics whose notability is often debated in this manner. Just like we have WP:BAND and the db-band speedy, not because they *couldn't* be done with WP:N and db-nn, but because it's a topic that comes up so often that it's worth having guidelines for. Malls seem, for whatever bizarre reason, to be in that category, so I can see how it would be helpful to have something specific written down. Perel 03:18, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Elimination of Fair Use Rationale in Promotional Photos of Living People

So, it's been talked about, hinted at, and finally, appears to have happened -- a group of editors have decided that there should be NO "fair use" rationale for promotional photos of living people.

The short version: If an image is a press hand-out or other "for media use" image, and it depicts a living person, the image is deemed to be "unfree" (the horror!) and replaceable with a "free" image, usually one from a Flikr stream (and usually, an image without the subject's approval). Several hundred of these images have been deleted over the past week; many, without following the proper guidelines for image deletion.

Of course, there are a large number of people who feel this course of action is perhaps emphasizing the wrong word in the Misplaced Pages goal to "create a 💕" - valuing the "free" far more than the "encyclopedia." And, I have to say, I'm one of them -- If a promotional photo is distributed for wide media re-use, with the approval of the subject, photographer, and copyright holder, and the image is sourced and tagged appropriately, who am I to say the photo is not "copy-left" enough for Misplaced Pages? Instead, the previously sensible fair use criteria would seem to allow for such images, but the wording on this policy has been tweaked and shaved so as to be basically nonsensical, and entirely impracticable.

Please note: I am aware of Jimbo's feelings on this, and would encourage editors to refrain from the tired "But Jimbo says..." posting that even now, some editor is composing. I am more interested in OTHER EDITORS feelings about this. Should Misplaced Pages replace all professional promotional media images with images such as this? :Image:Kristen Bell.jpg Or should we hit the wayback machine a bit, and allow sensible fair use of copyrighted promotional photographs, such as was done until this most recent spasm of anti-promophoto editing? Jenolen 11:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• I couldn't agree with you more. A press photo is by law 100% usable for any purpose here on Misplaced Pages. and should not present an issue for us. It is nutty to think otherwise.--BenBurch 14:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Could you point us in the direction of the law you are refeering to here? --Sherool (talk) 17:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• Support. The massive deletion campaign that has gone on in recent weeks, eliminating thousands of properly tagged promotional photos (many of which are irreplaceable) is seriously damaging our project. The use of horrible photos such as the one you present above supports your argument that such personalities may wish to have no association with our encyclopedia after seeing such an image of themselves here. Badagnani 14:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Were they deleted from the Wiki, or just from where they were referenced?--BenBurch 15:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleted. I have a list of such images on my user page. Jenolen 21:20, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I have lost at least 32 images in the past week as well, not to mention countless hours of work both creating and defending the images. In many cases said images were obtained directly from the artists themselves, and involve persons from around the globe who don't walk into major public forums. In my case, the rule applied has been nearly universal - if the person is alive, your press or promo photo gets deleted, and nothing you can add to a fair use rationale can change it. Period. After this experience, I have stopped loading any images onto Misplaced Pages at all, and I refuse to ask the artists and celebrities I know for GFDL images - it's insulting at the outset, and opens up major issues for them going forward. Many of them will not give up control of their images in such a wholesale fashion, and they have otherwise been major Misplaced Pages supporters. Tvccs 05:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Agree. At the very least, the amount of prior discussion with the parties involved should be proportional to the number of images affected. If you are going to delete one photo because you think it's wrong...fine, "Be Bold". If you plan on deleting ten of them for the same reason then you'd better talk with some other editors about it first. When you plan to delete hundreds to thousands - the entire community needs to be involved on a much larger scale discussion with full consensus before proceeding. Talk first, delete later. SteveBaker 14:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• People don't come to Misplaced Pages because the images are free, they come here because of the information. Never remove a (properly tagged) fair-use image in favor of a free one, if the fair-use image illustrates the subject better. -Freekee 15:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

That makes actual sense if actual quality was the priority, good luck. Tvccs 05:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Partial support. Do replace fair use images with free ones; yes, even ones that are of slightly lower quality. (The example is too blurred to be useful, but anything better would qualify.) Promotional photos will always be of somewhat higher quality because they're taken by expensive photographers; fair use images will be taken by volunteer editors, very few of whom meet those qualifications. If we don't replace them, there will be no incentive to take truly free photos. However, don't remove fair uses images until free ones become available - it is unrealistic to expect volunteer editors to go to the lengths that paparazzi go to to snap photos. AnonEMouse 15:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Also, take a look at this discussion: User:HeartThrobs/ImageTalkRebeccaCummings.jpg. A promotional agent for a "star" specifically puts up a fair use image, when it's trivial for him to put up a truly free one. That's an example of fair use images that should go to provide encouragement for free ones. AnonEMouse 15:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
• Concern. I am concerned that you might be misunderstanding – or worse, misrepresenting – the choices available to us. We are not forced to choose flatly whether to allow fair use or not. We have before us a more nuanced choice. If it is possible to replace a 'fair use' image with a genuinely 'free' one, we should definitely be doing that. Where no 'free' image exists, we should retain the promo photo until a free image becomes available; I think most people support retention of the 'fair use' images in that case.

If a 'free' image exists, it very seriously weakens any 'fair use' argument associated with a promo photo; it also weakens Misplaced Pages's claim to be a 'free' encyclopedia when we include non-free images in our articles. You ask rhetorically (I presume) "who am I to say the photo is not "copy-left" enough for Misplaced Pages?". I'm going to answer anyway—you're not required to decide or interpret. If the image hasn't been explicitly released under a free license (GFDL, CC, PD, etc.) then it's not copyleft enough, and we should seek a genuinely 'free' alternative. It's kind of a no-brainer.

Note also that it's not Misplaced Pages's responsibility to make stars look pretty. Their agents ought to be well aware of Misplaced Pages by now; if they want the promotional value of a pretty Misplaced Pages picture, they can provide us with one under an appropriate license. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• • Where no 'free' image exists, we should retain the promo photo until a free image becomes available; I think most people support retention of the 'fair use' images in that case. -- But this is not how the policy is being implemented. As has been noted, a "delete all promotional photos of living people immediately" campaign is already well underway. As for star agents/publicity people, they DO make their stars available for promtional photos all the time... it's just that the current system (stars pose for studio photographers, in character, for photos released by the copyright holder) seem to mandate "fair use." You're not going to convince the entire entertainment world to release to Misplaced Pages, alone, images that are in totality, "free/libre." There will ALWAYS be rights reserved by the copyright holder, which is why fair use MUST be used. But there are plenty of editors who would rather have NO IMAGE than a fair use image, and these editors have been especially vigorous in implementing this new "no promophotos of living people" ban. To me, that's counterproductive, and not making Misplaced Pages a better encyclopedia. Jenolen 21:19, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• I mostly concur with TenOfAllTrades. I also note that a lot of the photos used are not actually promotional photos released as part of a press kit, and their use is questionable. I am also of the position that having an unfree image up tends to discourage people from taking free photographs: they see that something is already there and will not have the incentive to go out and do so. Unless the image is genuinely necessary to discuss in the article (Marilyn Monroe with her skirt blowing up is a classic example), where it is possible to get a free photo (i.e., the person isn't dead, retired, or otherwise out of public life) I would prefer to see nothing, in order to provide that incentive: promoting future value in the creation of new free content rather than going for the short-term quick-fix but worse solution. In most cases photos of celebrities are nice but not absolutely necessary for the value of an encyclopedia. There are plenty of reference materials on the web available at no cost to view; what makes Misplaced Pages different is its being free-as-in-speech rather than simply at no cost and we need to act to further that, our mission. Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 16:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

My main concern with the deletion is that too many mass image taggers are failing to consider what relevant information the photo actually provides relative to what a free alternative could actually provide. A current picture obviously could not replace a publicity photo taken many decades ago (though this is arguably relevant only if we're dealing with a celebrity whose specific appearance is important, as opposed to say a scientist), and a free picture could not substitute for an in-character publicity shot or screenshot from an actor's work (yet I have seen pictures of all of these natures inexplicably tagged as "replaceable"). "The subject is alive" is obviously not a catch-all justification for deleting any fair use photo without qualification. Our policies rightfully require that the replacement be able to "adequately present the same information" as the fair use image, and anyone tagging an image as replaceable should not do so if they don't understand what that information is. Postdlf 16:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• This is probably changing the subject a bit, but how does wikipedia reconcile discouraging editors from doing original research in articles with encouraging editors to take their own pictures? Shouldn't pictures come from a reliable source, and why wouldn't original pictures be original research? It seems contradictory to me. --Milo H Minderbinder 16:43, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

  See WP:OR#Original images. Kusma (討論) 16:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

  I'm glad someone else sees the inherent contradiction between an insistence on prior publication and no original research in written content and an insistence on original images. Tvccs 12:12, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• Jenolen says, "Instead, the previously sensible fair use criteria would seem to allow for such images, but the wording on this policy has been tweaked and shaved so as to be basically nonsensical, and entirely impracticable." Well, no, it hasn't. The wording of the fair use criteria on this question has not changed since criterion 1 was first added in October 2005. The fair use criteria have always prohibited the use of unfree images where free images could be created -- not where free images already exist. Policy on this issue has not changed in the past few weeks. All that has changed is that people are finally starting to enforce the previously ignored criterion 1. There is simply no excuse whatsoever for using copyrighted images of living people who regularly appear in public. —Angr 17:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The best excuse in the world; If the picture makes the article better, and it is actually fair or permitted use of the material, then the BETTER picture is the one that ought to be in the article. We want to have the GREATEST encyclopedia, not simply the freest one. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. Break the rules. Be Bold. And if you have looked, a lot of the replacement pictures SUCK. --BenBurch 18:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

No, we're about having the freest encyclopedia. Having a 💕 means that our work here will outlive all of us, no matter what Jimbo or the board may do. It means that the encyclopedia can be spread to poor families in third world countries, whether whether it's spread solely by non-profits or by market-driven methods. --Interiot 18:48, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages grows by being a great source of information. Reducing the amount of information here by removing pictures, and replacing them with images that don't well illustrate the subject (or not replacing them at all) is counterproductive. I would have an easier time accepting this rule if someone could explain the harm in having fair-use and promotional pictures here. -Freekee 19:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

We seem to be talking at cross-purposes here. You're discussing how Misplaced Pages grows—and certainly, nobody will dispute that adding non-free images and other content to Misplaced Pages will make it larger. The concern is the effect that non-free material will have on allowing Misplaced Pages to spread or to be distributed. Mixing free and non-free licensed content in our articles greatly complicates (and curtails) the ability of people or organizations to reprint, republish, mirror, or otherwise redistribute Misplaced Pages's content. For instance, having non-free images makes it difficult or impossible for an article to be included in a book – or, for that matter, a digital CD compilation – and sold.

I feel that the bigger and more helpful the encyclopedia is, the more it will be spread around, but your point is taken. What I don't understand is why we're more concerned about others passing on our information, than we are about having the best information available. And to TenOfAllTrades, just below, I wasn't suggesting we push the boundaries of "what we can get away with", I was questioning why it isn't within the boundaries in the first place. -Freekee 22:58, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Having a great deal of information here is only one part of what we do—we also have a responsibility (and specifically enumerated aim!) to make our content freely available to as many people as possible. Encumbering our work with images bearing restrictive licences hinders us in achieving that goal. Remember that we're building a 💕; we're not just assembling a large collection of whatever we think we might be able to get away with on this one particular web site. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whoa. The whole damned point behind a press release photo is that you can, with attribution, us it in any publication whatsoever. The rights have been given. You'll have to come up with a better excuse to justify this Political Crunchiness than that.--BenBurch 21:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Even the ones where permission is granted for use, they're not free content. You do not unless explicitly granted have permission to modify them, to create other derivative works from them, or to sell them (though you may in many cases sell publications which include them). You might also get better responses by taking a less antagonistic tone. The "political crunchiness" of which you speak is on the part of the project, not on the part of the individual editors you're talking to. (Well, said editors may hold those views too, but that really doesn't matter. :-)) We aim to create content that is free for those uses, not just reprinting, and so content that we cannot do that to is a poor substitute. Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 22:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me a non-sequitor that if mirrors and other reusers of Misplaced Pages content are unable to use fair use material for whatever reason, that Misplaced Pages should be unable as well. Fair use images are all tagged and categorized as such and so should be easy to filter out; why shouldn't it be up to mirrors to find "free" images to fill in the gaps left by the exclusion of fair use images, rather than Misplaced Pages removing what it has a legal right to use based on applicable U.S. copyright law?

Regarding "💕," the repetition of this mantra does nothing to advance understanding, and suggests that it's an all-or-nothing prospect of a "free" encyclopedia "or" one that "gets away" (?) with fair use. I can understand wanting to minimize fair use, as 1) it makes sense legally to be more cautious than we think the law permits; and 2) there is no need to go out of our way to increase the burden on reusers to filter out fair use content. However, it should be acknowledged that Misplaced Pages cannot become devoid of fair use-reliant content and "free" without making far more drastic changes than deleting some images, such as the removal of all textual summaries of copyrighted fictional works and textual descriptions of copyrighted fictional characters, the removal of all quotes from copyrighted works... Postdlf 22:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If there are images that can't be included in a hard copy of wikipedia (or part of it), isn't the obvious solution just to omit those images in that version? Since wp is technology based, it should be possible to have images that are tagged as not being free identified and omitted automatically. And is there a reference to the "law" that says that publicity photos can't be used in a hard copy? --Milo H Minderbinder 22:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Section break (images discussion)

Angr says, "The wording of the fair use criteria on this question has not changed since criterion 1 was first added in October 2005. The fair use criteria have always prohibited the use of unfree images where free images could be created." That may well be; the change I was thinking of when I wrote that may have been in the {{promophoto}} template, which, until October 2006, had a more liberal wording with regards to that criteria.

However, I think it's fair to say that the images I uploaded -- and worked with many admins to properly tweak and tag under the fair use policy when I uploaded them (mostly spring and summer, 2006) -- seemed to meet the criteria as they were being applied at the time. Admins I contacted to MAKE SURE my images were properly tagged and sourced agreed that they, in fact, were. And then, the log rolled. A whole new interpretation bubbled up - this "no promophotos of living people, at all" kick that many editors are currently on. I disagree with their interpretation of policy. I disagree with their implementation of the policy. And I'm glad to see some sensible discussion about it here! Jenolen 21:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

• Just my two cents; promotional images are used as such because (in theory) they are excellent samples of the subject (case in point: Image:Davidsedaris.jpg). In my opinion, it makes perfect sense for us to use such photos until a better photo can be found; to remove a photo just because the person is still alive is a poor concept that does more harm than good. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • And what of the idea that it discourages volunteer photographers from making the effort to find/take free pictures themselves? In the long term, I think that's more harmful, because we don't get anyone with the incentive to take these photos. (For example, does he ever do book tours and signings? If you knew a picture was already there, would you make much of an effort to go seek out one of these events?) If you can find a digital picture of the person to use as "fair use", anyone else can find it on the web too, and we can link to the official site which presumably has them; it's a small inconvenience but better furthers our long-term aims. Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 22:12, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I don't see what discourages people from taking their own pictures. If I take a decent quality picture of David Sedaris, I know it has a good chance of replacing that publicity photo on wikipedia because "free" photos are preferred if they are available. And for the record, I've met David Sedaris at a reading, and he's incredibly friendly and accessable - I'd be surprised if he didn't agree to having his picture taken. Now I wish I had brought a camera, but now that I think about it, I do have other pix that could be useful to wikipedia. --Milo H Minderbinder 22:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
    • I don't buy that disincentive argument either. People are too competitive and prideful; they like to point to pictures they took of an article's subject (or maybe that's just me). Furthermore, all fair use pictures should be reduced in size so that they're no larger than needed to be legible; there will therefore always be the incentive to improve upon these fair use shots with a larger, high-res GFDL photo. Postdlf 23:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
      • The practical experience we've had, however, suggests very strongly that image removal does trigger replacement; already a number of fair use images that had been around for months or years have been replaced in very short times after being removed. I suspect this is largely a question of the need for an image becoming much more visible. --Robth 23:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
        • The above is a lovely sounding anecdote totally unsupported by any actual meanginful facts or actual research. Tvccs 05:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
          • Certainly not one of the promotional photos of very obscure Asian liquors has been replaced, nor likely will be. Despite my justifications to this effect, every single photo of this type was deleted, almost all without serious discussion. The deleting editors, of course, have not lifted a finger to find such replacements, nor likely will they. I certainly will never upload another photo to Misplaced Pages, after the treatment I was subjected to in this regard. This campaign has impoverished us all, and really for nothing, as our own guidelines state that it is extremely unlikely that one of the producing companies would ever object to our use of photos that they placed online for the very purpose of promoting knowledge of their products. Badagnani 06:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • If I had a digital camera, you bet your ass I'd take a picture of a celebrity that I meet and summarily check Misplaced Pages to see if I could replace a non-free image with the one I took. I think the only people who could be discouraged to replace a non-free image with their own are the same people who wouldn't think about uploading their own pictures in the first place. EVula // talk // ☯ // 23:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
      • I hope one of the GFDL only admins will buy you a digital camera and send you out as the first member of the Misplaced Pages free papparazzi,and pay all of your expenses. Tvccs 05:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I haven't seen a real clear answer on this, and I'm hoping someone such as Postdlf will jump in, but let's say EVula DOES take a digital photo of a celebrity he/she meets. I understand that EVula can license his contribution under the GFDL, but how are the personality rights issues addressed? How are the rights of the person photographed handled? Remember - 28 states in the U.S. have 28 different laws; doesn't it make more sense to go the fair use route in this instance? So, and this is the crux of the matter, is EVula supposed to contact the person after the photo has been taken, and get THEM to sign off on it, too? Just because they're in public doesn't mean they've given up all rights to their image, of course... Jenolen 23:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
      • It is complicated, and will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and will depend greatly on the use. Making your own "merchandise" (e.g., t-shirts and posters) featuring your favorite celebrity in your own GFDL photograph is undoubtedly going to get you sued. Publishing and distributing a hard copy of Misplaced Pages articles with a full cover GFDL photo of a celebrity might as well. The most ironic thing is that the First Amendment protection in the United States that gives Misplaced Pages the right to make informative uses of celebrity likenesses in our own photographs to accompany articles is arguably as jurisdictionally limited and use-contingent as fair use. Postdlf 23:51, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Lets have a simple study? So why do we want to remove promophotos from wiki? -Because it increases the amount of "Free" content. Why do we want to increase the amount of "Free" content? -Because it makes our work survive even if something happend with WMF, because it increases it usability and because it protects WMF from litigations. Right? Now lets consider each point.

Survival: We do not need freeness for our work to survive. We only need forkability. If an image was a fair use in the contest of a wikipedia article it is a fair use in the context of a fork. For the purposes of forking the fair use is as free as GFDL as far as the "Fair Use" laws in the USA and anological clauses in other countries are valid.

Usability: Misplaced Pages without images of models, actors, dancers, singers is less usable no questions about this. Most of these images would not be replaced by free images. On the other hand, the fair use image has more limited usage over the GFDL. Users can not use fair images in e.g. an open-source game or as a decoration of a website. In most cases both GFDL and Fair Use are equivalent: we cannot put a GFDL image on t-shirt (without providing the GFDL license and the list of contributors), it is impractical to put anything GFDL into the commercial software, etc. Does a small increase in the potential usage of some images compensate for the removal of many others? I do not think so.

Safety: The less fair use images we have the more we immune to the litigation over abuse of the fair use clause. Since our policy is already strict we are already quite immune to this. Is it the only danger? How about privacy laws? For the fair use images they are the problem of the copyright owner. For the GFDL it is owr problem. The ban on promophotos encourage users to claim copyrighted pictures as their own work. Do you see problem here? By posting images with free licenses we become responsible if the images will become used in an inappropriate way by others (on a website advertising condoms, for example, or in producing photoshopped pornography). Do you know who will be the subject of litigation from the angry selebrity? WMF will. In short I strongly doubt we are to become safer after we remove all the promophotos.

If the deletion of promophotos (even if it is followed by the increased uploads of free images) does not increase our chances for survival, have questionable effect on usability and does not make us safer from litigation, then we do we do it? Alex Bakharev 01:47, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider the increase in usability of GFDL over fair use images as small as you think; some of the most prominent media in which Misplaced Pages content will hopefully be reused someday (such as commercially produced books) would be on much surer ground with GFDL images than they would be with fair use images (even promo images).

I'm not sure where you get the statement that "For the GFDL is our problem." Misplaced Pages is no more liable for GFDL images that it hosts than it is for promotional or other fair use images; remember that the holder of copyright over an image retains that status even if they release it under a free license. --Robth 02:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

GFDL require copy of the license and list of contributors. It is not very convenient for most book publishers. Fair use in the context of the Wiki will be in the most cases the fair use in the context of book. The difference between responsibility for the promophoto and the GFDL image is one is a product of a known and accountable person the second is a product of an anonymous uploader. When wikimedia accepted this product on its servers it surely accepted some reponsibility in the case it was a violation of privacy, libel, etc. I guess it could be an important point for the publisher of a book as well. Alex Bakharev 02:55, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

If someone can find a Misplaced Pages article about a celebrity, it's very nearly certain that same individual is capable of using Google to find an image of that celebrity. (After all, that's more than likely how we got the promo picture in the first place.) For that matter, our article probably links to the celebrity's website. A handful of 'Misplaced Pages wouldn't be as pretty without this picture', combined with a dash of 'None of our editors can be arsed to get out and take a picture of this public figure', sprinkled lightly with 'It might take weeks or even months to get a picture, and we can't stand to have an incomplete article about my favourite celebrity for that long', baked at gas mark 7 for thirty minutes, does not a fair use soufflé make.

Regarding your point about 'safety', I would strongly recommend that you consult a genuine lawyer about...well, all of your legal assessments. I'm also a bit confused about the use of the term 'usability' in this context...? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, most of the information on Wiki can be found elsewhere if you spend some time doing googling or doing some research in a good library. In the best case the image is just one click away, sometimes the click goes to a dead link or to a foreign language site, sometimes the image shown on the celebrity's site is not exactly one needed for the text, but who cares about such small things, surely all the readers of wiki do not know what to do with their free time anyway. Alex Bakharev 06:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to me that most of the promotional photos on Wiki have provided much encyclopedic information. An article about singer/actor X is going to stand or fall on the content of the text, not on whether the picture is pretty. What encyclopedic question is answered by saying "person X looks like this" ? In most cases, as far as I can see, none. Thus, although I respect the work that many people have put into finding, tagging and uploading these images, I can't say I'm sorry to see them go. I've noted an unhealthy image-focus in many new contributors, as well... If we treat our encyclopedia like a photo blog, we end up attracting users who think it *is* a photo blog. It's imperative that we keep focused on our goal which not just to create a great information resource, but to create a great free encyclopedia... things which divert energy from that are best done away with. -- Visviva 07:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

"Remember that guy? He was in Groundhog Day with Bill Murray? And I think he was in Memento, too? That guy? You know, he's got that thin kinda' face? Glasses? Damn... uh ... Stephen something? Stephen Tobolowsky! That's it! Yeah... What's he look like?" It seems to me that this is the kind of question that Misplaced Pages should easily be able to answer without breaking a sweat (or having a massive policy dispute). Promotional photos help answer these types of questions, and in no meaningful way affect the "free-ness" of Misplaced Pages content. Jenolen 08:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No, that's the kind of question Google Images should easily be able to answer without breaking a sweat or having a massive policy dispute. Misplaced Pages is for providing encyclopedic information about him in the form of free content. —Angr 08:13, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Now that's an interesting line of thought. I'm fairly certain that you don't think an encyclopedia should be devoid of images. And there's quite a difference between a series of random Google Images results and a Misplaced Pages entry, I think we would both agree. I would even go so far as to argue that images, and the ability to actually illustrate an article, are what make an encyclopedia much more than just a dictionary on steroids. At the end of the day, I still have no idea why people are so supportive of content that is GDLF free, and so against promotional content that is, under reasonable fair use standards, equally free. It's just odd. Jenolen 09:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

No, of course an encyclopedia shouldn't be devoid of images. But a free content encyclopedia should be devoid of unfree images. In the absence of free images, images (which are secondary to encyclopedic content) should be left out altogether. This is what German Misplaced Pages does, and its quality as an encyclopedia does not suffer for it. —Angr 09:28, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

But there are very important fair use images in the Misplaced Pages that are not secondary at all. Marilyn Monroe's skirt was cited above, Elian Gonzales and the INS most of us know, even I uploaded one, Gary Hart with Donna Rice. Those are all easily worth any other thousand words in their article, not just "what does X look like"? So we will always have some fair use images, as long as we try to completely cover the topic. Given that, the argument that we should exclude promotional shots to be completely free is invalid. AnonEMouse 14:35, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Angr, I can't believe you're suggesting that pictures are secondary to text when describing a subject. -Freekee 03:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You can't? Well, let me say it more clearly then: pictures are secondary to text when describing a subject. If a picture is worth a thousand words, but the only picture is unfree, I'd rather have the thousand words. And this includes things like Marilyn's skirt and Elian Gonzales. We aren't the only site on the web. For historical but copyrighted images like that, we can provide links to noncommercial websites that make no pretense to being free content and so can use fair-use images without compromising their principles. Better yet, if there is one, we can link to the copyright holder's own website showing the picture. —Angr 06:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Heh. And so Angr goes beyond Jimbo Wales' view, which he called "the extreme end of the spectrum". "... Some pictures (Elian Gonzales and the Border Patrol for example) are historically critical and irreplacable...". Shows how naive it is to call anything the extreme end of the spectrum, I guess. AnonEMouse 20:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Amen. To me, ANgr's attitude is the electronic equivalent of using the technology of the Internet at the level of the Gutenberg Bible. I never knew pictures (shudder) were such an evil thing until now. Tvccs 05:59, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The argument above what should be how is purely hypothetical as it is based on fairuse images banned from Misplaced Pages altogether. This is not the case. As such, the fairuse images should be based on existing policies. WP:FUC #1 states: "No free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information. " (in the specific context as any fairuse claim applies to a specific article.) --Irpen 10:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not quite heavyweight enough to address all the issues being discussed here, but I'd like to chime in that I think that the anti-fair-use crusaders are making a mountain out of a molehill. Outside of this little enclave, the distinction between fair use and free images is hardly noticeable. Promotional photos are provided for the purpose of public release, and I don't see why downstream use of Misplaced Pages's content wouldn't be acceptable under the fair use doctrine. So why is this an issue? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Because one of the core tenets of Misplaced Pages is that it is a free content encyclopedia. That does not mean using everything we can get our hands with low likelihood of getting sued. —Angr 08:48, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I understand, as an intellectual matter, the difference between fair use and free content. However, as a practical matter, in the real world, is there any discernable difference, for the purposes of Misplaced Pages and its downstream uses? I'm not sure that there is.

I'm just worried that by making a fetish out of strict interpretation of "free content" we may be cutting off our nose to spite our face. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:57, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• As a relatively new Wikipedian, with no previous experience in the policy-making end of things, let me throw out my perception of the situation to see if it has more than a passing relationship with reality. 1. Official policy directs that a "free" image should be used rather than a "fair use" image, even in the case of promotional images clearly intended to be widely distributed (which legally constitutes an implicit waiver). 2. Recently, rigorous enforcement has begun, including deletion, as if the policy stated that free images "must" rather than "should" be used. 3. Even the most casual glance through this discussion would seem to indicate that nothing approaching consensus has been reached on whether these deletions are appropriate, let alone advisable. Am I missing something? Is there a mechanism to put a hold on the enforcement until consensus is reached? --Jgilhousen 00:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Support. I see no reason to exclude promotional photos. The purpose that they are released is to make it easier for the media to add the likeness of an artist, author or notable person, when traveling to that person to take a photo might be inconvenient. They are commonly used in newspapers, which follow guidelines on notability, neutrality and conflict of interest that are similar to Misplaced Pages's.--Dgray xplane 23:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• I think there's something to be said for reducing our use of fair use, to ensure that we remain a 💕. Having said that, I would suggest that there are better ways to do this than to mass-delete stuff that's been here for a long time without problems. These ways would include focusing more on getting rid of new unfree images, and to increase efforts to create/obtain free photos/images. These are probably more productive than deleting ancient images, for which the benefit is more than negated by the alienation of long-time contributors. JYolkowski // talk 23:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Support Hackajar I'm concerned at the requirement of Promotional images being forced into "Fair Use" when the original publisher is dumping images into Public Domain for use. Why does the WP:FU caluse even apply in this case? Hackajar 01:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Concern Just something minor no one's addressed very well - I noted that one other person suggested 'free' images taken without permission could expose WP to as much, if not more, liability due to using a likeness without permission, but one other thing that I didn't see any mention of - did anyone consider that a lot of celebrity appearances outside of "the general public" are conducted in a "closed" manner such as to prevent people from taking such pictures? It hardly seems a good idea for us to be promoting that WP editors deliberately violate venue rules in many cases to snap GFDL pictures that don't carry the picture subject's permission and risk having venue staff confiscate their photography equipment. UOSSReiska 13:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

In a nutshell your saying "If I bring my camera to a concert to procure an image that is "Free" for use on wikipedia do I risk 1.) Loosing my camera during entrance search and/or during concert by security. 2.) Open wikipedia to liability because image was procured illigally at concert that prohibits photography." Right?Hackajar 05:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I first thought I'd stay out of this debate but Jgilhousen (talk · contribs) has brought up a point that's being lost in the debate storm. Noone can in good faith say that the mass-deletion of fair-use images is massively supported by the community and it's not right for anyone to go on crusade without getting community approval. Pascal.Tesson 07:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. I have seen many high-quality free images added to articles after the existing fair-use image was removed. Clearly, restricting fair-use images from being used to depict subjects which still exist (such as living people) has, in many cases, resulted in a freer encyclopedia as there's no doubt that freely-licensed images are freer than fair-use images. That said, the law certainly allows us to use promotional images to depict living people, provided they are promotional images of the people and not of a character that person played. Still, our goal is to produce a 💕 and I believe we should rely as little as possible on fair-use; in fact, I understood this was a core principle. --Yamla 05:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

(That is, creating a 💕 is a core principle, not necessarily relying as little as possible on non-free content) --Yamla 05:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with replacing, when one is available, a promo or press photo with a GFDL image of generally equivalent quality. I ran into one of these some months ago and after a revert, left the free image alone, even though I don't think it's as good, and it was of a car, and it least it was properly exposed. However, on the now "magic" subject of living persons, what in some cases is happening is members of the GFDL club are out hunting Flickr for images which may be of bad quality, editing and cropping, and using those. Furthermore, they don't even have the courtesy of verifying with the Flickr user what they are doing, and just take the CC license and run with it. I had one of those with an image on the Keith Emerson page, where a period-specific promo photo of Emerson at his peak was replaced with an awful fan image that was washed out, over-exposed and off-color. When I notified the Flickr image holder, a fan of Emerson's, of what had been done, and sent him the link, he immediately chose to relicense all of his images, some others of which have also been "nabbed" in his words, to prevent any such use. Said discussion can be found at the Chowbok Rfc page, If you're going to be changing policy here, you need to have these Flickr grabbers obligated to send a note verifying the use of the image on Misplaced Pages as being acceptable, especially when they are cropping it as they did in the Emerson case, or you'll open of a far larger can of potential hornets than a thousand legitimate press photos ever could. This copy and run without notice attitude towards Flickr CC images is frankly, disgusting. Tvccs 06:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are saying here. If the image was posted on flickr with a license that allowed modification of the image (not all CC licenses do), what was the problem as far as licenses were concerned? There's no requirement to notify the original owner of the image, though this may be good etiquette. That the flickr account owner changed the license does not mean that the original image could not still be used under the original license offered by the flickr account owner. The owner of the image clearly and specifically wanted the image to be used elsewhere, this is the whole point of choosing a CC license. This is of course an entirely different matter than the possibility that the image could have been of very low quality and, for this reason alone, unsuitable for use on the Misplaced Pages. --Yamla 18:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

What I find almost amazing in this instance is that Wikipedians who may be "copyright junkies" don't accept the concept that many of the general public loading images onto Flickr have no real idea how a CC license can be applied, and when they see how, could change their minds, having not understood a CC license in the first place. Tvccs 12:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• 

  Maybe if someone was a bit smarter instead of mass deleting images they could have advertised the need for a new image (using a template) similar to that shown at right. Just a thought. —Mike 06:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Now now now...in the words of the Talking Heads, Stop Making Sense. Tvccs 07:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The "help us replace it" caption seems like an excellent idea. Deleting images without replacing them makes the encyclopedia less informational, and seems disruptive and contrary to current wikipedia guidelines. Is there some action that can be taken to get people to stop doing this? --Milo H Minderbinder 14:48, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, change the policy. At the moment, images which are replaceable must be deleted after seven days. It is not considered disruptive to follow Misplaced Pages policies. --Yamla 18:30, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It's all about interpreting the policy correctly though. For instance, the Woody Allen article is now illustrated with a picture of a statue of him. Is that as good a representation as the picture that used to be there? Of course it's not and it's not even close. So the quality of the article was downgraded. I understand the objective of free-ness but if we have a fair-use guideline, isn't it precisely so that we can use fair-use images in the event that no alternative of similar or at least close quality? I think editors who are against fair-use altogether are in essence proving their point by deleting them as fast as they can find them. Pascal.Tesson 19:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this one out - it's indicative of the absurdity of the policy being enforced as it is now. In cases like this, Misplaced Pages appears as a joke. This helps Misplaced Pages? Tvccs 12:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed question

i just removed some citationless trivia . i suppose i could have tagged it as citation needed, but as i was editing it struck me that the statement was just suspect enough that it warranted a quick google search. finding nothing relevant, i removed it.

policy says to boldly edit, so i did (just as did the person who added the statement originally).

this seems like a fault prone procedure to decide whether or not to add a citation needed or delete the item. can anyone point me to official or suggested policy on this. 131.107.0.73 00:18, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The main policy that's relevant is Misplaced Pages:Verifiability which allows (and comes close to encourages) removal of uncited "facts". -- Rick Block (talk) 01:04, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• I believe your bold edit was in good judgement. At times there are listed facts in which no citation could ever validly verify in some articles. So no worries.¤~Persian Poet Gal 04:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The way I usually deal with such things is via harm minimisation and likelihood. If I strongly suspect something is false, I usually just delete it and mention this in the talk page. Similarly if I'm not sure but I feel it's too controversial to leave unsourced. However when I suspect something may be true and it isn't particularly controversial, I usually just tag it as citation needed. Of course, each editor is entitled to deal with such issues however they see fit. In this particular case, I probably would have done what you did Nil Einne 07:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nil Einne that movement of material to talk for discussion is suitable when you feel that it might be ok to include in the article in some form but doesn't seem to be good to reatain in the article at this time with Template:Fact addendum. This provides a seed for expansion and explication. Regards, --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 14:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Red links in lists of people

I quite often end up in lists of people which have (red links) to non-existent articles. It seems to me that while I am there, I may as well delete them (the red links), as it's just clutter. E.g. Santosh. One could argue that a recently added name may be an article about to be created, but certainly names that have been there for a while are stale. Often they are the result of links to speedy deleted bios/self written resumes, in which case they should be deleted, but it's not always easy to know that. --ArmadilloFromHellGateBridge 15:07, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

• In general a disambiguation page should not contain red links. So removing them from e.g. Santosh is a good idea. (Radiant) 15:44, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
• I would say that as an exception if a red link name is clearly notable (i.e. a former members of the United States House of Representatives) it will never become stale and should remain. In the example, the red-link article is supported by a WikiProject and will eventually be written, however long it might take.--G1076 15:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
  • The easiest thing is to write it yourself. Just jot down a few basics and add {{bio-stub}}. (Radiant) 10:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
    • I agree in principle, but sometimes its not so easy. For example, I work on United States Congressional Delegations from New Jersey, a fairly complex table with lots of information. If I run across a link to the wrong person of the same name, then I have to chase it down and I end up 2 or 3 degrees away from the task that I originally working on. Then to have to immediately lookup the person and create a new stub article brings me 3 or 4 or 5 degrees away from the task that I was originally working on. Maybe I haven't been around here long enough, but I just don't see the difference between red links in articles or lists and red links on disambiguation pages.--G1076 14:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Just for clarification, are we just talking disambiguation pages here or all lists? In disambiguation pages I would agree that red links should generally be deleted. However, red links in lists should not generally be deleted (unless they're blatantly non-notable) as they are good indicators of articles that need to be created. If you have spent a lot of work creating a list of notable individuals it is irritating in the extreme if another editor comes along, however well-meaning, and deletes all the red links, often with the justification that "if they haven't got an article they're obviously not notable enough for the list". This is blatantly not true and shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what Misplaced Pages is all about (i.e. it's an ever-growing encyclopaedia and lack of an article simply means nobody has got around to writing one yet, not that the subject is "obviously" non-notable). This has happened to me and it is extremely frustrating. -- Necrothesp 13:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
• Comment about red links on dab pages — Red-links are tolerated on dab pages, folks. The main reason they should be included is not in anticipation of the future, but as the result of some articles referring to the non-existent article. I often add red-links to dab pages when repairing them if I find in the 'what links here' link set one or more articles that link to the dab page and require disambiguation of terms to article titles that do not exist. The corollary of removing this type of red-link from a dab page (one the reflects usage in other articles) is removal of red-links from the referring articles - which is generally a no-no. I do agree that pre-loading dab pages with red-links in anticipation of use is not to be encouraged; but representation of red-links that are used in other articles I think is a reasonable reason for red-link representation. Note that you can see on a red-link whether or not other articles link to that non-existent article as the 'what links here' function works at the title level whether or not the article actually exists. There is a section of MOSDAB that addresses this, but I'm loath to simply say 'you should leave red-links in because the guideline says so' ... I hate being told things that way without additional explanation of benefits of editing in a certain way. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 14:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
  • It is not wrong to unlink redlinks to articles that are unlikely ever to be created. This happens sometimes with historical peerage articles -- an enthusiastic editor redlinks a batch of younger siblings and the mother, but there just isn't enough information to write an article on most of them, so someone else unlinks them. If it is not wrong to unlink a redlink in an article, it cannot be not wrong to remove the same redlink from a dab. Automatic removal is wrong, but some should be removed. Robert A.West (Talk) 15:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes, agreed. The 'unlikely to ever be created' criterion remains in force. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Citing News stories mirrored on third-party sites

A copy of a news story has been posted on a third-party website. While we would prefer to cite the original source, if that has become unavailable, is it okay to link to the mirror site when referencing it? --Alecmconroy 14:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

My personal action is to source the original in the article without a link, and then either link the website it's mirrored in hidden text next to it, or, if it's possibly controversial, link the mirror on the talk page. As long as you're sure that the copy of the story is accurately mirrored, I don't think there's too much of a problem - we wouldn't hesititate using a news story from the 1940s if all you had was a photocopy from the library, after all. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Need to be careful. Sometimes sites which advocate on an issue are less than perfectly accurate or complete in mirroring content (I've seen some articles that have been selectively abridged). Sometimes they just outright lie, and make up articles, with fake attribution, that were never actually published. Well-known organizations with reputations to protect don't do this, but smaller, practically unknown groups may. Fan-1967 15:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you talking about an instance where, oh, say, AP (or Reuters, or any other wire service) has a story and all 5 zillion of their associated papers, magazines, websites, and other news outlets pick it up and run with it crediting the wire? ~ ONUnicorn 18:25, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

We're just talking about an instance where ABC News ran a story four years ago, but the link has gone dead and we want to link to the mirror on another site. --Alecmconroy 11:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The Template:Cite web code was updated recently to include parameters 'archiveurl' and 'archivedate' to facilitate retirement/merger of Template:Waybackref into this template. A similar addition could/should be made to Template:Cite news. A related dead-link discussion appears at Template talk:Cite web ('Dead link question' topic). --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:23, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Cite the original, note the mirror, after satisfying yourself that the mirror is a true mirror. If anyone disbelieves that, they can go to Lexis and check the original.And then they can delete the mirror. Hornplease 12:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Photos by Misplaced Pages users, ourselves

If I submit a photo or scan that I created myself, would I have to list my real name in either the photo description page or whatever letter I have to send to wikipedia permissions to confirm I created it. Do I send a letter to Permissions dept confirming it, if I create an image myself? Is using our wikipedia username not enough for these licensing issues to identify ourselves; i.e., is wikipedia username anonymity disallowed for this licenses? Can I say "Bebop" licenses this CC by SA? Or tag it CC and say I created this image myself, sign it with my username and leave it at that? I don't want to find out later I have to name myself because I'd rather delete the image or try to find someone else who can shoot the image than do that. But it seems like you would have to do your real name in a copyright issue. Yet I feel certain I have seen images by Misplaced Pages users that didn't tell their real name and were licensed GFDL. Am I right? – Bebop 02:07, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

If you create it yourself just upload it and tag it. Real name not required although by not useing your real name you have an effect of the length of the copyright on the image.Geni 02:38, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

QUESTION - What do you mean by I have an effect on the length of the copyright on the image by not using my real name? It's not something I care to restrict at all. KEY ISSUE - It's a photo of a fair use image of a 12-inch album cover. How about that? I just realized that in this case the fact of me photographing an album cover or scanning a cd cover does not matter, right? I would just submit the photo of the fair use "album cover" and not even mention it was me who took the photo because of the fact I don't have any ownership of the image anyway, right? The worry about naming myself would only matter on a photo of other things, I would think, not this situation with photographing a fair use album cover/cd cover (which is similar to when you scan an image)? – Bebop 03:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

The effect on the length of the copyright is that if a work can not be atributed to a real identifiable person a different term applies. If you reveal your true identity then the copyright on your works last for as long as you live and for 70 years afterwards (controlled by your heirs). If you publish your works under a pseudonym and remain "unidentified" however, the term is instead a fixed 95 years after publication (I asume hitting "upload" here counts as publishing).

And you are correct, for all intents and purposes you would hold no rights to such a photo of a poster or albumcover, or at least what few rights you would have would be moot since you would need the permission of the copyright holder of the poster or whatever in order to do anyting with it. --Sherool (talk) 07:44, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:USURP

Hey everyone. Over at Misplaced Pages:Usurpation we've got a useful proposed policy to allow active users in good standing be renamed to already existing but totally unused accounts. It's got a fair bit of support, but it doesn't seem to have been commented on by a lot of people, so the bureaucrats are worried the community doesn't really know about it. It'd be pretty good if people would go read it and comment. --Gwern (contribs) 20:16 3 December 2006 (GMT)

Model infobox, model articles

Template:Infobox Female Model Bio I've been clashing with a number of editors writing Indian actress articles. They've been using a "model infobox" that was apparently developed for people writing articles about Western models and supermodels. Here's an example of such an infobox, from Riya Sen.

I haven't ever thought of myself as a feminist, but this infobox upsets me, in that it treats women as pieces of meat to be weighed and measured.

I'm also offended as a scholar in that none of these claims to weight (not filled in here, but in the code), measurements, and dress sizes are ever referenced. They can't be: they're bogus claims, or ephemera.

I know that dress sizes no longer mean anything -- there's been a constant "deflation" of sizes, as manufacturers slap a size 8 label on a dress that would have been a size 14 thirty years ago. The rag trade has discovered that no one wants to be a size 14, but will buy a size 14 labeled as an 8. So there's incentive to cheat. If an actress or model claims that her size is X, she's flat out lying.

I've also listened to countless friends talking about how they gained or lost weight, lost inches when they started an exercise program, even gained inches in the bust when they got breast implants. Just how can we publish some measurements, derived ghu knows how, as if they were immutable facts about a woman? One editor, asked where he got his numbers, said they were from a beauty contest web site. I said, "That was years ago, how do you know they haven't changed?" He replied that since they were actresses and models, it was their business to keep their bodies the same, therefore their bodies did not change.

A related issued has been the lavish inclusion of company names in the context of "she was chosen as the Lakme model of the year" and suchlike. I think that this is advertising and I don't want to see it sneaked into the article under the guise of reportage. The Indian editors' comment is that this is OK in the regular model articles (see Kate Moss) so it must be OK in Indian actress articles. Do model and celebrity articles get a pass on the advertising rules? Or do we apply those even there?

If I can convince the community at large that the model infobox and the advertising have to go, there are a fair number of model articles that need to be revised. I posted at Model (person) but no one has replied. I don't know how to get feedback from that community. Zora 23:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Would you feel slightly better if the fields were referenced or had "approx" tagged on them? I personally do not see the problem with this infobox. It no more demeans women than all the articles on porn stars. Infoboxes are only meant to collect general infomation into a nice little box. It's not meant to demean or deavalue anything. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I looked at the porn star articles -- sheesh, I never considered that such things would exist here. Yes, I think those articles demean women too. Questions of taste aside, however, all the comments re verifiability of information apply to the pornstar infoboxes as they do to the model infoboxes. No references, and the assumption that these are eternally true measurements. Adding approx wouldn't begin to solve the problem.

I suppose that, on the grounds of "no censorship," prurient interest in women's bodies might have to be tolerated. However, like any other POV, it has to have references, not just figures pulled out of the ether. A reference would be something like, "On X date, model Y asserted that she weighed XX pounds and measured XX-XX-XX," and then a ref to the published article where she made this assertion. Her assertion is not necessarily true. She is very likely minimizing her weight and waist size, and exaggerating her bust and hip measurements. Zora 00:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is not at all "misogynyc" for the same box is applied to men. See for example John Holmes (actor) or Ron Jeremy as it states their penis' size. We can remove the infobox for both or leave it for both. Lincher 02:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Until the day comes where we can spirit models away on a whim for physical testing to ensure Misplaced Pages articles accurately reflect their physical attributes, we'll just have to take their word for it. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It might be wise to insist on a reputable source for such measurements. --Improv 03:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

These allegedly witty comebacks are bizarre. Clearly the context matters. Sure there might be an info box on Ron Jeremy showing his penis size. But does that mean there should be one for Abraham Lincoln shwoing his penis size (perhaps it's in his autopsy). Even if we had that information availalbe on old Abe, I don't think it belongs in the Abraham Lincoln article. As for the article Zora's working on, I'm not sure about that either, but simply syaying it's appropriate because Misplaced Pages publishes Ron Jeremy's penis size si bizarre. I would also say the data should be removed if no verifiable source could be provided for it. --63.250.231.17 04:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I would think penis size to be an appropriate, if not necessarily useful, bit of data for a porn star's article. As for models, there's already a source for this particular models bio, even if its not cited directly. Unless people are just whipping up guesses, I would say such information is readily available and reliable in the case of this particular model. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Back to the infoboxes - vital stats of a female model are clearly relevant information. Agreed, they contain information that is very likely to change, but as long as one mentions the point when measurements were taken, it shouldn't be an issue. Gamesmaster G-9 05:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The advertising stuff is a completely separate discussion issue, not just a minor point to be sneaked into another discussion in the guise of an afterthought. I'd welcome Zora wholeheartedly to initiate a discussion on brand names featured in articles on showbiz personalities who are notable as models, especially as there career highlights. It was most inapropriate to imply that Lakme the brand (there goes an advertisement of Lakme) was made by Riya Sen's endorsement, not the other way round. For someone who declares a war against advertisement, it should be a priority to establish a guideline, by consenus, to differentiate advertisement from information/education.

Now, back to the infobox. The only point in Zora's complaint that I see is that these measurements are not properly cited for source, though the level of precision Zora is demanding may actually put almost all the WP articles to a tough test. Otherwise models are and always was appreciated for their looks and their figure (appreciated as meat if you prefer), and their statistics is much an anti-woman statement as there very existence. If women's bodies and its commercialization is so scandalous, I propose that we remove all female models from WP, they all may represent anti-woman statements (check The Female Eunuch by Germaine Greer).

I see no problem with the infobox itself, may be all they require is a request to post the source for the stated stats. By the way, the implied difference between Western models having a right to flaunt their brands and Indian models lacking it was amazingly racist for someone who speaks for women's dignity and stuff. Thank you all. - Aditya Kabir 15:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Aditya, I don't think Western model articles should be full of brand names either. Please don't hint that I'm a racist. But I agree that it might be a good idea to bring up the advertisement discussion in a separate thread.

As for the measurements -- I'd suggest that they be sourced, to reputable sources, and dated. Readers will be able to evaluate ten-year-old measurements with the necessary grain of salt. They may also require a disclaimer on the order of "stated by subject, not verified". We don't otherwise let people write their own biographies on WP. I don't regard pornstars and models as such reliable sources that they should be exempt from this requirement.

I'd also suggest that the measurements be moved OUT of the infobox. The vast majority of WP biographical infoboxes give data like name, birth and death dates and places, and reason for notability. Having a separate infobox for people who are notable only as bodies IS demeaning, don't you think? As someone said previously, imagine the porn star infobox applied to Abraham Lincoln ... or perhaps Mahatma Gandhi. In terms of the Indian actress articles, the use of the model infobox has meant that some actresses, who were never models or beauty contestants, get an infobox of the same type as given to any other notable figure, like a writer or politician. Actresses who were models or beauty contestants get infoboxes that suggest that they're only notable because of their bodies. That's just not even-handed. Zora 01:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Infobox for the occasion, that's how it works. Your assertion that we should somehow blanket infoboxes is ridiculous. That'd be a pointless mess of code and a severe risk to Misplaced Pages integrity (literally speaking). A model is notable for modeling, Ghandi is notable for humanitarianism, and presidents are notable for being presidents. It is in no way uneven-handed to classify an article on a person by what they're most notable for. If a model is a crappy actor or does it as a side job, are you seriously suggesting we use the actor infobox simply to be more "politically correct?" I'm sorry to say this, but it seems as if you're trying to make Misplaced Pages seem sexist. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually - models ARE in fact notable for their bodies. Its their job to have great bodies, and they perform that. I didn't understand the Gandhi example. Its like asking - "Can you imagine Cindy Crawford with a scientist infobox". Its not demeaning, just bizarre. Gamesmaster G-9 03:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• I think the essential question is; "If these women do not feel personally demeaned or debased by their use of their bodies to make a living, why should you?" I have many friends who are sexworkers, and several who are current or former "porn stars" and though most of them will tell you that it isn't the world's best job, all of them have reasons why they do now or did once prefer it over other employment. How, for example, is making love with the camera rolling more demeaning that cleaning toilets mucking out stables or asking "Do you want fries with that?" for minimum wage? (And I've done all three of those things, BTW.) Why is how they choose to live their lives threatening to YOU? --BenBurch 05:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no quarrel with the way they live; that's their choice. However, there's no evidence whatsoever that any of them WANT to be represented on WP by the infobox in question. This isn't advertising, or co-eds gone wild, or the Man Show, or any of the other venues in which women get money or attention by appealing to men's prurient interests. If Paris Hilton or Britney Spears don't get model or pornstar infoboxes, despite their public (and pubic) shenanigans, then neither should the women in question now. Zora 05:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thats a complete non sequitur. Britney Spears in neither a model nor a porn star - she's a singer. Riya Sen, Celina Jaitley and the others did have careers as models before turning to movies. Hence they have model infoboxes. And hello - why should a model not WANT to be referred to as a model on WP? Its not something they are or should be embarassed of. I'm afraid this entire discussion suggests a regressive mindset. Gamesmaster G-9 05:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Damn, you're faster at expressing the same sentiment. This is getting ridiculous. Now we're to try and assume what the subject wants? Not gonna happen. – Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And what exactly is Paris Hilton? Her bio lists "Singer, Fashion model, Actress, Author", but in line with what you said before, she doesn't do any of those things well and they're not really what she's notable for. In all honesty, she's notable having sex on camera, just like Ron Jeremy. Curiously, she doesn't get {{female adult bio}}, but {{infobox celebrity}}. It seems sometimes we do put some weight into how a person wants to represent themselves. –  Anþony  talk  13:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, there are occasions when we need to respect the wishes of the livin person in question, but what Zora is suggesting that some women may be offended if their vital stats were put in an infobox on WP. Now sticking to the example of Riya Sen (the lovely lady whose picture is directly above) - this is a woman who has walked the ramp, who has appeared in a number of ad campaigns, and posed semi-nude for a calendar. The information on her vital stats were put there by me. I got them off a website that serves as a database of Indian models, for the benefit of advertisers. Given that she carried out her activities as a model in the public eye and that her measurements have been circulating among photographers for a while now - how can we make the leap to suggest that she would specifically take offense to the said mmeasaurements being put up on WP? Gamesmaster G-9 18:24, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the essential question is whether the information is notable enough to belong in an infobox. Personally, I think not. Speaking as someone who likes ogling the scantily clad females, I don't need to see her measurements in the infobox (and dress size is just ridiculous). Or her hair color. Maybe her height. And birthday. How about just use the Celebrity infobox? -Freekee 05:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

• Apologies. Dear Zora, I have nothing against you personally. In fact I hold your efforts to put WP right in real high esteem. I hope I can be of one tenth of your use and resolve someday. But, yes, I'll hint, smirk, scream and shout at all flavours of bigotry and zealotry whenever and wherever I can. And, trust me, racist overtones can creep into even the very best of intentions. It's dictated by the culture we live in (just take a trip to an international soccer match, or read some of Michel Foucault's thoughts), and, yes, it's the same in Hawaii and Bangladesh, Iceland and Madagascar. My sincere apologies to you. But, please, try to remember your "tanks & Islamabad" comment, to remember how a slip of insensitivity can prove as racism. Thank you. - Aditya Kabir 16:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Misplaced Pages not being censored, I'm free to say that these infoboxes are the crappiest piece of shit that ever happended to Misplaced Pages. All bio infoboxes. Only completely stupid morons can prefer infoboxes over text. --Pjacobi 14:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of patronising nonsense up here. First of all, Gamesmaster's attempt to seize some sort of moral high ground on the basis that he got the information from a modeling website is a little pointless; the claim that some -possibly unauthorised - website thinks that some potential employers would be interested is irrelevant to whether or not WP thinks that that information is relevant to a person notable as an actor. Zora, how the individual wants to be represented is clearly not directly relevant. How she or he is notable is.

Secondly, physical statistics are relevant for individuals notable as porn stars. Height and dress size are relevant for models. Bust size is probably irrelevant for the vast majority of actresses. If someone wants to add the information, it can be sourced, and will almost certainly be deleted unless most users think that it is directly relevant to the individual. To have a box that seems to imply that it is relevant to all individuals is presumptuous, and somewhat puerile. Hornplease 12:20, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Trolling: I know it when I see it

Everyone agrees that trolling is bad. It's right up there with vandalism and spam. But often people disagree about what constitutes trolling. Since it is as bad as vandalism and spam, editors often take it upon themselves to remove what they consider trolling. This then sets off edit wars with people who don't consider it trolling.

Reverting mainspace articles to remove vandalism and spam is uncontroversial. But trolling happens on discussion pages. I believe that discussion pages exist to document what people said, and editing them to remove trolling doesn't make what was said go away. It's right there in the history.

Furthermore, I firmly believe that whether a post is trolling is a matter to be decided by the community, not a small group of editors who often are emotionally involved.

At first I thought I was the only victim of this. Then I saw the same group do the same thing to another editor.

I believe this has to stop. I work on Misplaced Pages for fun, and if it stops being fun I will stop doing it. If the community decides I am a troll, I will be happy to leave. But this is not a decision to be made by a small group.

If you believe I am a troll, there is no need to participate in this discussion. You will not listen to anything I say, and anything you say to me would just be "feeding the troll". It is impossible for me to prove I am not a troll, since by definition everything a troll says is suspect.

If, however, you can look at my edit history and AGF about me, I welcome your input. --Ideogram 06:59, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally I believe, removal of one user's comments from a Talk page should be against policy for *any* reason whatsoever. It is so outrageously antagonistic that it does not serve any wikipurpose. Actually it serves the purpose of keeping the mediation cabal and the anti-vandal police active, also the sockpuppet warriors... and the vandals for that matter. Go figure! Wjhonson 07:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, with an obvious exception for personal attacks and vandalism. --tjstrf talk 07:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Eh? If the community thinks you are a troll you will leave but if anyone here thinks you are a troll they should keep their mouth shut and not add to this thread? eh? (Never interacted with this editor before) I find that a bizzare statement to make - it's basically saying "speak up if you support me or shut your gob if you don't!" --Charlesknight 20:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I already know who thinks I am a troll. I also know who does not think I am a troll. I am looking for opinions from those who are yet undecided. --Ideogram 20:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I would be very interested in hearing opinions on this edit. --Ideogram 19:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

In my experience, you know the process is doomed when a) people start deleting other's comments, and b) someone accuses someone else of a personal attack for accusing someone of a personal attack. -Patstuart 20:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

What do you think I should do in this situation? --Ideogram 20:32, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Patstuart. It was debatable whether your post was trolling or not, but it wasn't constructive. Neither was the reaction, of course. What to do? Stop your side of it. Don't make it worse. That's all you can do. AnonEMouse 21:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It was my view. Are you saying I should not speak my opinion? That the other party should be allowed to say whatever he wants without opposition? --Ideogram 21:19, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally I believe that you should report this to WP:PAIN, as far as I am concern you obviously were not trolling, and accusing other person of trolling (not to mention deleting his comment) should be a blockable offence per WP:CIV/WP:NPA. Unfortunatly me experience shows that unlike 3RR, abuse of those policies is usually ignored :( -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  21:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Piotr, I appreciate your input, but I think it is difficult for you to be objective here. --Ideogram 21:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

"Misplaced Pages is not a forum for unregulated free speech." But, let's look at your statement again. "I am quite certain nothing will come of this RfC." If that's actually so, then there doesn't seem to be a reason to fight about it. If you can avoid hurting someone's feelings, and get the same result, then, yes, you should avoid hurting their feelings. AnonEMouse 21:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

(outdenting) For some reason Ghirla doesn't care about hurting my feelings (or those of many other people). Do you really think it is best for the project to let him have his way and just wring our hands? Are you saying his feelings are more important than mine? --Ideogram 21:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No, and if he had asked for comments on his behaviour here, I would write something similar to him. He didn't, and you did. I could, of course, write for advice to you on how he should behave, but ... I'm a strong fan of being "constructive", as you may have gathered. :-) By the way, "he did it first", and "he did it worse", is not usually accepted as sufficient excuse. AnonEMouse 21:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You know, I do have a temper. Given sufficient motivation, I can restrain it. But if I feel I am doing all the work to maintain the peace I am likely to decide it is not worth it. In order to follow your advice, I would have to avoid Ghirla and, perhaps, leave Misplaced Pages entirely. I think there are not a few editors who feel the same way. I honestly don't feel it is right to tell them all, "let him be a jerk, as long as you don't reciprocate". --Ideogram 22:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Do not feed the trolls. Now that that's answered, can you take your personal conflict elsewhere? Fagstein 06:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I would just remind people to assume good faith before leveling accusations. Misplaced Pages can often get rather ugly when that principle is forgotten. EReference 08:42, 13 December 2006 (UTC) I would add that this type of matter can quickly become VERY ugly when the "assume good faith" principle is ignored, as I have found out. EReference 09:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Where did Misplaced Pages:Avoid instruction creep come from?

I'm confused about how Misplaced Pages:Avoid instruction creep became a guideline. From what I can tell, it has never been proposed, attempts to tag it as such was reverted according to the history. There's not consensus on Talk (no active discussions either). Does anybody know something I don't know? -- Steve Hart 08:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Requiring we do those things to it would be instruction creep, wouldn't it? Jokes aside, it was probably tagged a guideline, no-one objected, and since there is a consensus regarding it now no harm is done in having skipped a minor unofficial step of the process. As for the ultimate source, it's from meta:, as the original version clearly shows. On meta: it's been around since 2004 and enjoys a nice acting consensus of editors. --tjstrf talk 08:36, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

From what I can tell from the history, the article originated at Misplaced Pages:Instruction creep before it was moved (see talk at ) into the guideline space on August 3, and briefly tagged as a proposal the same day before the same editor the next day tagged it as an essay . It was then tagged as a guideline by a different editor on September 9 with edit summary: It is a longstanding guideline to avoid ins.creep, as a corollary to policy WP:NOT a bureaucracy, even though the few comments on talk at that time indicated it should be an essay. (btw: I see I put this at the top of page, moving to bottom) -- Steve Hart 09:49, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

• The page originates from meta (m:instruction creep), was written in 2004 and has been a guiding principle since before it was written. There appears to be some confusion here about what a guideline is (see WP:POL) and how they are made (see WP:PPP). Specifically, Steve seems to allude that there is a formal process that needs to be followed to make a guideline - but we do not in fact have such a process. We should ask ourselves whether this page is (1) actionable and (2) consensual. The first is obvious, as it specifies a course of action. The second is visible all over the wiki where we, indeed, avoid instruction creep. Note that the talk page lists a total of 43 users who concur. The counterquestion is, can you find me anyone who thinks we should use instruction creep, or bureaucratic instructions for the sake of covering every possible angle? "It sounds like an essay" doesn't really mean anything. (Radiant) 12:27, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I was under the impression that the process outlined at Misplaced Pages:How to create policy guided the making of guidelines and policies. And I know that consensus needs to be reached, which we don't have yet according to the talk page. And yes, I believe instructions can be quite handy sometimes. What I disagree with specifically is how that "guideline" is written up, it's unspecified and comes off saying that our policies and guidelines aren't that important (something I can do something about of course). On a second note, I see that the "guideline" now is demoted to proposed. -- Steve Hart 17:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of correctness, the talk page doesn't list 43 users who concur, it lists 43 editors who has quote, "referenced instruction creep during discussions". Which was another thing that made me cringe: naming editors who has used the expression at one time or another, found by doing a earch I suppose, thereby giving the impression that all of them support the proposal. For all we know none of them even knows their name is listed on that page. Just saying. -- Steve Hart 18:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

• There is something to be said for the idea that our policies and guidelines aren't that important. Indeed, we want people to be able to edit freely without having to learn The Rules first. Note that the 43-list isn't meant to indicate support for the proposal, it is meant to indicate that the term is indeed in use as such, and if you follow the links you'll note many remarks discouraging instruction creep. Sometimes we make a guideline simply by writing down what already happens. (Radiant) 16:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The page says nothing about ignoring policy. What it says is that a lot of proposals suggest long complicated procedures which are complicated for their own sake, when either a very simple guideline will solve the problem, or the problem, if it exists, cannot be fixed with such a policy. Fagstein 06:05, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I would be surprised if "instruction creep" were encouraged. —Centrx→talk • 17:32, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Two issues: 1) One problem with "instruction creep" is that it leads to shoving beans up your nose... People devise all sorts of rules to address problems that don't exist yet. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. 2) The other problem is that this guideline is LARGELY being ignored, especially in the realm of Notability Guidelines. People get pissed off over an AfD of a favored article, then go about creating a guideline to prevent it from happening in the future. Many of these proposed guidelines directly violate long established policies like WP:V and WP:NOT, not to mention the very spirit of the original Primary Notability Criteria. Not only do we need a guideline like Avoiding Instructional Creep, we need to apply it more liberally. --Jayron32 04:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Linking to Wiktionary

Is there a WP policy/guideline or accepted practice regarding the appropriateness of linking difficult terms or words to its Wiktionary entry? Reason I am asking: on a few occasions I have come across a needlessly difficult or seldom used word in an article and I am not sure if I should leave it, replace it with a clearer word/phrase, or, if it is preferred, link the word to its Wiktionary entry. Thanks in advance for any responses. Katalaveno 18:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You mean like this: emaciated --Bobblehead 01:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is done frequently, isn't it? EReference 06:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I've done it a number of times myself, but yes, it is generally acceptable to link to other wikis, just within reason, of course. --Bobblehead 16:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Same here.It,s especially useful for defining a technical verb or adjective without or not warranting a wikipedia article. Circeus 00:06, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That's what I had thought as well, so I was confused by the question. EReference 07:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Taiwan/Republic of China

due to a recent act of "content dispute" at the article Chinese Taipei at the 2006 Asian Games, i committed myself to raising this point of order. an administrator treated This, a "content dispute" instead of an act of vandalism. Taiwan, Republic of China or Chinese Taipei is NOT a province of China. my proposal here is: Any direct implication that Chinese Taipei/ROC/Taiwan as a province of China should be considered vandalism and MUST be deleted. the following are my rationale:

• the Taiwanese Government officially calls itself Republic of China. (an indisputable verifiable fact)
• the government of People's Republic of China exercises NO active jurisdiction over the domains of Taiwan.
• the International Court of Law has NO final and executory ruling on this subject.therefore status quo should stand.
• the claims of PRC and ROC are internal, Misplaced Pages has no control over it. as per WP:NOT Misplaced Pages is not a medium for soapboxes.

Since wikipedia is not a democracy, more weight should be given on discussion points raised here rather than mere voting. --RebSkii 19:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

• I'm not sure how to handle this one - it's pretty sticky. But I can say that referring to Taiwan as a province of China, without explanation of the conflict, ought to be treated as unnecessary POV-pushing. Unfortunately, it's not vandalism, and can't be treated as bannable. -Patstuart 19:22, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• I don't think it's vandalism either, but it's definately POV-pushing. That's why I replaced the original text in this article with the headlines used in the Chinese Taipei article. Somebody making these kind of changes should however be warned. If he/she still make edits like this, then it's vandalism. SportsAddicted | discuss 19:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• Systematic POV pushing by one given user should be considered as vandalism but we most certainly won't start creating classes of particularly unwelcome POV pushing. Pascal.Tesson 19:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• Blatent POV pushing of a political agenda without fact to back it up most certainly constitutes vandalism. I realize that I have more experience with the Chinese Communists and their sympathizers than most because I live in Taiwan and am very active in support of the legitimate rights of the Taiwanese people. Chinese use that reference to Taiwan being a part of the PRC to serve political ends, though we have hashed out the most acceptible wording regarding this in a variety of places, the lastest of which was on the 2006 Asian Games discussion page, where we seem to have come up with a workable compromise regarding the use of Chinese Taipei. I will henceforth regard any insertion of this line in Chinese Taipei related sports articles as vandalism and will summarily delete any such references I see. ludahai 魯大海 22:25, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
• It's a content dispute. It may be wrong, it may be POV pushing, and it may require warnings be given to the user if this persists against a clear consensus, but it is not vandalism. That policy page makes clear that NPOV violations and stubbornness are not considered vandalism. Fagstein 05:55, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
• It is definately POV pushing. The status of Taiwan is NOT resolved in any meaningful way, and any statements on a Misplaced Pages article implying that it IS resolved (either by stating that it definitively IS a province of China or that it IS NOT a province of China) is pushing a non-neutral Point of View. Any article on Taiwan or the ROC or Chinese Taipei needs to carefully indicate the controversy and the unresolved issue of Taiwans independance. It may be treated as de facto independant in certain contexts (such as international sports competitions or in business dealings) but neither the PRC or major international agencies like the United Nations recognize it as such, so de jure it is not a fully accepted member of the international community. Again, unless and until the status of Taiwan is resolved one way or the other, all articles dealing with Taiwan at wikipedia need to indicate BOTH points of view in such a way that the entirity of the issue can be presented. --Jayron32 04:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Question on extent of right to vanish

User:Mike1 has requested that his previous failed RfA's Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Mike1 and Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Mike1 2 be speedy deleted, citing m:right to vanish as the reasoning. The current language at m:right to vanish does not include deleting project pages related to a user's participation here, only to deleting personally identifying information and user and user talk pages.

So the question is, are these valid requests? —Doug Bell  22:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Been deleted. --Majorly 22:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Is that simply a statement of fact or an answer to my question? I have no viewpoint on the user or his request, only an interest in the extent of the policy. —Doug Bell  22:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea: I twice asked on the IRC channel but no one answered. I guess it isn't policy, but I think they are valid. --Majorly 22:30, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The real situation is probably more like "anything can be deleted as long as no one objects". I wouldn't so much say it's policy, as say that no one has brought forth any argument against it. I can think of one, but I'm not sure I want to go there. Wjhonson 22:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't generally think such deletions are a good idea. Same goes for user and user talk pages IMO. They can serve the project as a useful record of past events. Friday (talk) 22:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that deleting the user pages is OK, but I share your opinion on the user talk pages. I also don't think it's a good idea to start extending this to project pages. Without wanting to get into instruction creep, it would be nice to have some guidance on this issue in the right-to-vanish policy. The current absence of any discussion of it makes me think this is not a valid request and should not be granted. —Doug Bell  23:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Shall I undelete them, for historical sake? --Majorly 23:12, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added a back-link from the Talk page of the Right to Vanish to this discussion. Wjhonson 23:19, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

OK they're undeleted for now. --Majorly 23:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say my concern with the Right to Vanish in these cases is that you not really just "vanishing" a single user's words and works but rather the contribution of many editors who commented on those pages. What rights do they have for their work and good faith contributions to not just "vanish"? At the very least, there should be some some soft of consistent MfD process that these requests can go through. Agne 23:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It's difficult for RfAs, as they are all recorded on various lists (e.g. Misplaced Pages:Unsuccessful adminship candidacies). --Majo (rly?) 23:33, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

According to the meta article, it says that "right to vanish" is intended as a privacy feature. I get the impression it is more intended for people who use their real name, or have info on their user page that would identify them. Looking at the two RfAs, while I can see why he may be a bit embarassed by them, I don't see any information that would identify him. Deleting something like that just because someone feels like it makes them look bad seems unnecessary and unfair to others who posted on those pages. --Milo H Minderbinder 23:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Send them to MFD if it's really thought this is a viable option, but I would oppose deleting any pages that talk about the person who is vanishing. That's just... odd. -- nae'blis 01:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

• If they're malformed, unaccepted or empty, deleting RFAs sounds reasonable. Otherwise, I'd prefer not to. For instance, there may be feedback from other users here that is relevant for future RFAs. (Radiant) 17:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Protecting Featured Content/Articles

Why not semi-protect all featured content or at least Featured Articles if featured class items are indeed "perfect" and only require editing if new information becomes is available? I've noticed 95% plus percent of editing on FAs by new IPs leads to a revert. I think this would be a good policy to enact but I don't have a bunch of wiki buddies to support me on this so I need some advice on how to get my idea through digital red tape. Andman8 16:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

People ask that here every few weeks. The last time was on November 30th. You can see it if you scroll up. Otherwise, check: Misplaced Pages:Main Page featured article protection and WP:PEREN. -Freekee 03:45, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Change to Upload (Image/Media) Form

Where would I propose to change the upload form? My idea is to have several more boxes where the user must supply the source and license tag. The source would require a URL and the license tag would require a valid license template. A description box could still be available and an optional fair use box could be used if they are claiming fair use. Failure to fill in a valid URL or license would prevent the image/media from being uploaded. My reasoning is looking through the categories of unsourced, unknown copyright images and the uploader failed to even try to comply with the rules of providing a source and/or license.

Also, I'd like to know where I would propose a change to the CSD rule of 48 hours deletion after the image uploader has been notified to 24 hours after the image is uploaded. I think even 6 hours should be plenty, but 24 is a nice round number. My reasoning is that a large portion of the images I've seen have no encyclopedic content. Currently, someone could upload images for sharing with friends (Hey, go look at these images I took of my vacation!) and they would exist for 7 days (or 48, if someone took the time to notify them, which doesn't seem to happen much, most go by the 7 day rule once tagged). Any advice is appreciated. Thank you. --MECU≈talk 17:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Changeing the interface would require software changes. Makeing people provide sources would result in nonsense sources which would make them harder to spot.Geni 18:56, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

A problem with requiring people to provide a URL would be that it would make it impossible for people to upload their own photographs or drawings. Of course, Commons is better for those anyway, but not everyone knows about Commons or has the inclination to create an account there (single-user log-in will help with this, but not solve it). Also, I would take issue with your, "even 6 hours should be plenty" statement. I don't know about you; but I typically sleep for 8-10 hours at a time, and sometimes go 2-3 days or more without checking on Misplaced Pages. I certianly don't check Misplaced Pages every 6 hours and I think it's unreasonable to expect anyone else to. I think 48 hours is reasonable. 3 days or more is too long, 6 hours is way too short to give the uploader time to fix the problem. Unsourced images are a problem, and copyvios are serious, but I think the end result of your proposal would be to discourage people from going out with a camera and taking totally free images for Misplaced Pages's use. In otherwords, it would make the problem worse rather than better. ~ ONUnicorn 14:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Crown Copyright

People have been deleting Crown Copyright photos. While they are technically unfree, they are of provincial leaders. This is pathetic. Is there no way that Crown photos can be kept? See fair dealing. -- Zanimum 20:10, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

In something like this case, can you argue for fair-use in the same way we normally deal with press-release photos? Shimgray | talk | 20:25, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

How do you do that? Technically, the photos they've been deleting are the ones the press would be provided if they asked for a portrait of the politician. -- Zanimum 19:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Consider dropping a line on WP:DRV. (Radiant) 17:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I've already tried and lost my case with Bob Rae on DRV. It doesn't work. No matter how much I battle there, they won't hear any of it. -- Zanimum 19:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

When are Museums, Libraries, etc. guilty of advertising?

I found a delete article tag for alleged "blatant advertising pending cleanup" attached to the Los Angeles Maritime Museum, and it seems to me that that is outrageous. In the discussion page, I wrote Just my opinion, but I don't think that museums or libraries or similar public not-for-profit places exhibiting information of public, scientific, historic and scholarly interest should be negatively so labeled as being guilty for "blatant advertising". They're struggling enough to remain financially viable as it is. They should be welcomed to Misplaced Pages, and it's OK for them to reveal a little of their treasures. (I just checked Disneyland. Not a label in sight!). I'm removing this label, and I hope there is discussion about it.'

Guidance from an admin on this very important point would be welcomed. JohnClarknew 21:38, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the tag may or may not have been warranted but it's just a tag. If you disagree, you can simply, as you did, remove it and discuss it on the talk page. I don't think that any reasonable sysop would delete a museum article as spam. Pascal.Tesson 22:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because an articles subject is worthy of an article (btw i'm not convinced this one is but that is a totally seperate question) doesn't mean that the current article on the subject isn't spam.

The article that is there now reads like a promo peice and i wouldn't be surprised if it was a copyvio as well (the fact that the bulk of the content was introduced in a single post by a completely new user reinforces this suspicion) though i can't find the source if it is one. Plugwash 22:57, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

It has been improved some now, including revision of copy-vio text detected by one editor. There can be a fine line between composing a piece with entrepreneurial intent vs. educational intent when it comes to museums and the like because it is difficult to divorce writing about the holdings and stimulating folks to visit the location to see those holdings. Nonetheless, one of the reasons museums exist is to preserve what is notable in the world, so mentioning that a notable artifact exists in a certain place seems consistent with the Misplaced Pages mission. Unfortunately, a quick look around Misplaced Pages:WikiProject and a search doesn't reveal a WikiProject devoted to museums ... though there is one devoted to Amusement Parks (why am I not surprised by that?) --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 00:22, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ownership of (content), "Page squatters"

I'd like to add an example quote to WP:OWN, please take a look at my Talk topic on the page. TIA. — David Spalding /_Contribs 22:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Sprotect all templates?

Rationale: Generally, only experienced users know about templates, and how they are used. Templates ate frequently targeted for vandalism, due to their wide reaching effects. While we already have many high profile templates protected, there are many more that can be used disruptively, and few, if any reasons why new or anonymous users would need to edit them. Also, it can be reasonably assumed that anyone with sufficient knowledge of templates that would be affected by this and would reasonably need to change a template would also know how to request a change.

Proposed Policy Admins are permitted and encouraged to indefinitely sprotect templates used in the article namespace (only established users able to edit it), in order to prevent their use for mass vandalism.

Current Policy A current de facto policy of full-protecting high risk templates seems to exist, both to prevent vandalism and denial of service.

Comments? - Stephanie Daugherty (Triona) - Talk - Comment - 10:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I see a compelling reason for this; has there been a lot of template vandalism recently? -- Visviva

There was at least one pretty serious bout of vandalism the other day, inserting offensive images into little-known but widely used templates, yes. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:28, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Anecdotally, it seems to be a more and more common way to attack the FA-of-the-day; rather than simply vandalising the page itself - which will be reverted in seconds - vandalise an obscure transcluded template, which can take five or ten minutes to notice and track down... Shimgray | talk | 14:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Template vandalism, which can be maddeningly difficult to locate and fix, seems to be increasingly common. The proposer's points are well-taken. Newyorkbrad 14:33, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Also support. Perhaps I'm missing something, but this change seems to only have positive features. Under what circumstances would we ever WANT to have an anonymous IP editor or an editor registered for less than four days CHANGING a template? If such users should, for some reason, actually figure out that there really was a problem with a specific template, they could always post to the template talk page or notify an admin or even just another user.

On the other hand, we DO know that templates have been vandalized, including some within the past few days that were used in a Main Page article, and we DO know one avenue to attack templates is an experienced vandal doing so anonymously or via newly registered accounts (sock puppets).

Will semiprotection stop all or even most template vandalism? Quite possibly not. Will vandals figure out ways around it (sleeper accounts, for example)? Some certainly will. But changing this policy clearly will stop SOME vandalism, and there really seems just about no downside to this proposed change. John Broughton | Talk 14:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• After looking through the histories of various navboxes I'm familiar with, I would have to disagree with the premises of this proposal -- that unregistered users do not understand templates, or that their contributions are unlikely to be anything but vandalism. Actually, I see lots of constructive (though mostly trivial) changes by anons, like this one to a history navbox... Some templates were even created by anons (not possible anymore, of course). There is some vandalism in those histories too, but nothing terribly out of line. Now, I recognize that Misplaced Pages is slipping slowly (inevitably?) away from being "a 💕 that anyone can edit," but I don't think we need to hasten the process. For my money protected pages are still considered harmful, even when they are templates. I concede that we should be a bit more aggressive in protecting or semi-protecting heavily-used templates, or those which are particularly inviting targets for vandalism; but the ground rules at WP:PPOL already allow for that. -- Visviva 15:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Her'e what WP:PPOL says (in total) about protecting templates: A permanent or semi-permanent protection is used for ... Protecting certain "system administration" pages. This includes many editorial templates, such as deletion notices and stub templates.

I suspect that a lot of admins would be troubled by the leap from "system administration" templates, clearly covered by the policy, and "heavily-used templates, or those which are particularly inviting targets for vandalism", which aren't mentioned in the policy, unless the policy was reworded. For example, I don't think the templates that were vandalized on the Main Page article recently were "system administration" templates, though I could be wrong. John Broughton | Talk 16:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, a lot of heavily-used templates already are permanently protected, in accordance with Misplaced Pages:High-risk templates, so in practice it seems that they are considered to fall under system administration. That's as it should be; vandalism to something like Template:! would cause a mess to horrible to consider. On the other hand, I don't think that most garden-variety templates really fall under the high-risk category, and I don't see why such templates should be protected. It's not that hard to spot and fix vandalism to a simple navbox or infobox, and changes can be tracked through "Related changes". -- Visviva 16:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I'm wrong on that last point; "Related changes" doesn't seem to cover transclusion links at all. Bit of a bug there, if you ask me. -- Visviva 04:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support Template vandalism is not effectively prevented by present methods. See recent main-page featured articles and Talk:Main Page. Catchpole 09:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
• Sounds like a reasonable corollary to WP:HRT. I've noticed that a naughty image on a page is quickly removed, but one on a template can stay there for quite a bit longer as a significant amount of editors don't know where to find it. (Radiant) 17:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• Comment One could argue that actually, anons not editing templates is the real problem. They can't figure out how templates work and so don't edit them. One ad hoc approach I once tried was include an external link to the edit link for the template in the template itself, but this violates Misplaced Pages:Avoid self-references. Another approach is the software feature that links templates used in the article on the edit page, but this is easy to overlook and not very intuitive. Any other ideas? Deco 10:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• • I don't think that's a very serious WP:SELF violation; but there is concern about it, you could enclose the edit link in Template:Selfref. Thinking about it, such edit links are probably most appropriate for navboxes (which are fairly transparent and don't normally take any arguments), rather than for infoboxes and other more esoteric things. -- Visviva 04:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I can see no reason not to. -- Zanimum 16:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• Troubled: Am I misunderstanding, or is this a general proposal driven largely by concerns about articles featured on the front page? If so, that seems to be very much putting the cart before the horse; the front page is a tiny part of Misplaced Pages, and not really central to our mission of building a 💕 that anyone can edit. Perhaps WP:HRT should simply be amended to include templates currently transcluded into an article of the day? -- Visviva 04:41, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Template vandalism in general, and the recent template vandalism specifically, affect tens of thousands of pages, especially the main topics that have many more readers (most of the 1.5 million total articles are more rarely read, whereas the main articles can receive hundreds or thousands of visitors an hour). It also much more difficult to identify and remove. As has been said before, checked/stable revisions for templates would be a better solution, but what other option is there? —Centrx→talk • 04:47, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
• Support-ish. I believe that while the semi-protection of every template in existence would be overkill, that the indefinite semi-protection of templates with any significant history of vandalism should be made normal practice. In other words, if it would qualify for a few days or week of semi-protection as an article, we could safely bump that to indefinite for a template. This, combined with the full protection of any template that is going to be put on the main page, should be able to curb template vandalism easily enough. --tjstrf talk 05:04, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. WP:AGF even applies to anon users. There is NO reason why an anon user could not be a long-time editor and get to know Misplaced Pages well enough to reliably edit templates. If a specific template is a target of constant vandalism, then protection is in order. But we must not enact any restrictive protections of any class of pages simply because some users are targeting some templates for vandalism. Until a page becomes a problem, there is no reason to assume it will be a target. Until any user, even an Anon user, has shown themselves to be a vandal, we cannot assume they will vandalise. --Jayron32 04:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• While there's no reason they couldn't become one, I challenge you to find any anon or newbie whose first edits are legit changes to templates, other than perhaps reverts. They just don't exist. -- Zanimum 19:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Protect user pages

I propose that all user pages should be semi-protected by default. I can't see any reason why an unregistered user should be allowed to edit another user's page, or why a user registered for less than four days needs a user page of their own. My user page was recently vandalised, and looking over others, it appears that it is almost always inflammatory in nature. User page vandalism is a problem, and a seemingly preventable one at that. - Jack (talk) 14:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why users registered for less than four days can't have a userpage. If a page gets vandalised a lot, then the user can request it be protected. Some pages are never vandalised. --Majorly 14:26, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I've always thought that user page vandalism was a healthy test of character... people who can't deal with it are likely to have problems dealing with other aspects of Misplaced Pages.  :-) -- Visviva 15:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, no. There's no compelling reason to forbid people from making their own userpage for four-five days; sometimes the first test edits are done there while they figure out wiki syntax. Established users/admins are much more likely targets for vengeful vandalism, I'd think, and security through obscurity might actually apply to a new user among thousands. -- nae'blis 17:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I second that, userpages shouldn't be auto-semi'd. Personally, my only "contributions" for the first week that I found Misplaced Pages were solely to my userpage (making bookmarks to the pages that interested me). It wasn't a stellar beginning, but as Nae'blis said, it's one way to learn wikitext... --Interiot 23:01, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• We don't semi-protect anything by default (because indeed, some users start with their userpage, and many welcome all kinds of edits). However, I'd be happy to protect yours if you want me to. (Radiant) 17:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• A user's custom css/js is only editable by that user (and admins). Why is that? --*Spark* 16:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

• To stop me from going and making every page you view turn into a YTMND collage of shocksite images, of course. If it were possible to vandalize other's css pages it would be quite possible to mess them up so badly that they literally could not edit anything or even fix the vandalism. --tjstrf talk 05:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:AGF. Even anon users are assumed to make all edits, even those to others User Page, in good faith. If your user page is a target of anon vandalism, you may request it to be semiprotected; but we should not assume that all anon editors are potential vandals, and premptively shut off part of wikipedia from them for any reason. --Jayron32 05:02, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose We'll always have userpage vandalism; a much better solution would be to just disable editing by anyone that isn't an admin. ;-) EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Better yet, let's ban userpages! >:-D -Freekee 05:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:AGF (since this seems to be a spontaneous straw poll now). —Doug Bell  05:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

A guideline on Positive Contributions Please?

I have had the frustrating experience of putting a lot of work into carefully referenced enhancements of articles, only to have them completely reverted by a few editors determined to maintain the status quo. After a lot of discussion on the talk pages usually some progress is made, but one or two editors just say no-no-no and revert and never offer any positive suggestions as to how the text might be improved. I do not want to name names or personalise this at all, but in principle I think this is unsatisfactory. I wonder if we should have a guideline (PCP - Positive Contributions Please) which:

1. Reinforces the message that it is WP Policy that contributions should be constructive and not simple reverts.
2. Allows an editor to reply WP:+P (one problem is that it takes a lot of energy to reply to a negative contribution, most of which is ultimately wasted.
3. Enshrines the principle that at least no-one should make 3 contributions to a topic/article in a row which are negative, without one positive suggestion.
4. Allows an editor to reply WP:3+P if someone has violated this principle, with the undertsanding that this editors comments will generally be ignored until (s)he has made a positive contribution.

What do people think? NBeale 16:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Your frustration is understandable, but I'm afraid the propsosal is a bit mistaken. In the case of established articles with a long history that have achieved FA status, sometimes the best thing "regular" editors can do is keep the article clean. It's very common for well-meaning newcomers to try "improving" an FA article, but the edits are often non-productive and actually lower the quality of the article. In cases like these, "negative" contributions (ie, reverts) are both appropriate and necessary. Once an article has achieved FA status, there is rarely a need for sweeping changes...if there were, it shouldn't have been made FA. Doc Tropics 16:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I am one of those whom NBeale dares not name. There is of course another perspective, and that is simply that I and others are trying to defend certain articles from insertions of text which are clear breaches of WP:NPOV and WP:NOR, and which also add so many microfacts, footnotes and glosses on minor points that they obscure the meaning of an article. That is why the contributions get deleted. Snalwibma 18:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not arguing against all deletions, and such a guideline might not apply to WP:FA. If an Editor thinks text is a "clear violation of NPOV" it should be possible to re-word to NPOV, at least 25% of the time. One Editor's "footnotes and glosses on minor points" (etc...) can be another Editor's "inconvenient facts that people are trying to hide". By collaborating we can make better articles. NBeale 17:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm one of those too who dares not have his name spoken and the article is The God Delusion in which there has been resistence to adding words describing why Dawkins uses the word "Delusion". The article has a suitable section decided by consensus and is of an appropriate weight (given the word itself is not a central theme). The anti-consensus view is that unless there is further text added that shows that Dawkins uses the word incorrectly in a non-technical/non-medical sense it is hoped that the whole premise of the book is flawed. A number of editors have reverted various versions of WP:OR for a few weeks now and I feel that if this proposal was progressed the consensus (i.e. the views of the reverters) would be biased away from the consensus as only views positive to the anti-consensus view would be accepted. This proposal would plainly makes a nonsense of consensus. In the Dawkins article if Dawkins felt that a footnote was worthy of inclusion as a central theme then it would be in the main text. That something is a footnote means it was not central to the book. Misplaced Pages should reflect more or less a degree a similar weight from what the author gives to the subject and not ride off on some tangent. WP:Undue weight clearly applies and this idea of "Positive Contributions Please" smacks of trying to bash in factoids which there is a clear consensus that they are not relevant. Misplaced Pages:Resolving_disputes is perfectly adequate. Ttiotsw 01:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Protection of user pages

What's the policy on protecting user pages? Should user pages be protected or semi-protected simply because the user wants them to be without any evidence of need? —Doug Bell  21:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know of an official policy, except the general polices on page protection in general, which don't, as far as I can see, allow for routine protection without evidence of need. Fan-1967 21:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That would be my understanding as well. —Doug Bell  23:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering if one could request semi-protection of user pages if one is concerned about retribution from vandals who you have been warning with templates on their talk pages. (I'm in a 'conversation' about this currently) My argument is that, yes, one could justify this in order to encourage signing of warning template additions - the result of the protection would be increasing comfort level of the editor to a place where generally accepted behavior could be engaged in without concern. This would generally apply to those folks who engage in anti-vandal activity as a major proportion of their effort here. Thoughts? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think that goes against the general philosophy here of assuming good faith. I think we should wait until there is a proven need to protect. Nobody should be worried about leaving notices on vandals pages—any damage done to user pages is as easily reverted as anywhere else and if the problem becomes a pattern, the pages can be semiprotected. So no, I don't think this is justified here. —Doug Bell  04:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, my first gut reaction was 'gee, please just assume good faith and if something bad happens - take it from there', and it is this opinion (albeit in a much harsher tone, unfortunately) I espoused in the conversation. I got to thinking then about adaptation of tools to editors needs (perceived or real) versus temperamental/behavioral changes required to be a fully functioning Wikipedian and thought 'well, are there some relatively minor things that could be done to accomodate certain editor proclivities or fears in order for them to fully function.' It's a Wikipedian culture question, and I think my first gut reaction - that there is a culture and adaptation to the culture is part of participating in it - was probably the right one. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 04:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

My userpage has been vandalized frequently, as I get heavily involved in vandalism patrolling. I had it semi-protected for a few weeks because of one persistent anon, but that was months ago, and it's been unprotected. Generally, my experience has been that most vandals tend not to target you more than once or twice. You revert it and move on. Certainly you don't anticipate it. The ones who actually do it may well be the ones you least expect, when you least expect it. You don't protect just in case. Fan-1967 04:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

• It's not a big deal to protect or semi-protect any user page at that user's request (of course, usertalk pages should not be protected as such). If you think about it, how would it hurt the encyclopedia if you were unable to edit User:Somebody's user page? (Radiant) 17:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • I protect userpages upon request per the same logic as Radiant! described. I mean, if it's not in the encyclopedia, there's no harm done. It's as simple as that. Nishkid64 21:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Then if that's the case, perhaps we should change the protection policy so that those changes are covered. Not that I'm in favor of encouraging endless requests from users to protect their user pages, but I do think that if this is going to be defacto policy it should probably be listed as an acceptable use of protection. —Doug Bell  23:09, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality?

Shouldn't we be be concentrating on being complete and current too Some people's ideas of neutrality are extremely narrow (such as rabid views of some people on g theory). Reactive / Redactive neutrality is not the neutrality that we need. We need factual neutrality. Complete exposition of the common viewpoint, but not ignorant of the less common viewpoint, but not tolerant of the intolerant viewpoint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.103.55 (talk • contribs) 21:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a rewrite of WP:NPOV; perhaps you might want to discuss at Misplaced Pages talk:Neutral point of view, if not already previously discussed there? John Broughton | Talk 01:59, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds a bit like an "English Irregular Verb". And if we didn't tolerate intolerance (to some extent) a lot of articles would have to be deleted! NBeale 18:08, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Tribal and Oral Knowledge wiki

The call for a citation in Mukurob (yes, I am the original author) sparked a train of thought which I think is interesting and might be very important.

Throughout the world, but especially in Africa, knowledge, news, fiction and so on are all passed on orally. Only rarely are these nuggets of information (and disinformation) formally recorded, and then often with great differences of interpretation and content.

In the article, I assert that Nama oral tradition predicted that 'white' rule would end when the rock structure collapsed. My statement is based on several conversations in the Seventies and Eighties, around campfires and while travelling through the desert. There are no citations; the Nama stories are largely unrecorded.

The fact that I cannot provide a citation does not particularly bother me; I think that factoid is interesting but not significant. Probably a coincidence. There have been several other similar predictions the most famous of which is the prediction of Nonquase, a Xhosa girl, that two suns would rise and the white people would be driven into the sea by the ancestors who have risen from the grave. Well, that didn't happen.

What does concern me (and prompted my relating the prediction) is that these snippets information are just going to be lost through inattention, and worse, through self-censorship. On the other hand, I do recognise and agree with the policy of NOR; however, these oral nuggets are only unpublished, not original.

Perhaps there should be another wiki for this sort of thing. Before it is too late.

not young enough to know everything 04:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Oral sources have become acceptable to historians and other academics, but unfortunetaly I don't think we can use them in Misplaced Pages. To ensure accuracy and NPOV all our articles need to be verifiable, and there is no reasonable way to verify such oral sources. - SimonP 15:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Realistically, we have too many pranksters who make stuff up to see if they can get away with it. Some of it is quite reasonable-sounding unless an expert is available. We have to require accessible sources for verification, or risk allowing false content. Fan-1967 16:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

If historians and other academics publish work about such oral histories, then we can use them as a source. --Sam Blanning 17:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that having a Wiki (separate from Misplaced Pages) to record oral history is a very admirable goal. Wikis are perfect for this, since they allow the user to enter the information without requiring an academic to record it directly. Bluap 23:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Would that fall under any of our existing projects? Wikisource doesn't seem like the right place for it. Wikibooks maybe? --tjstrf talk 03:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are some thoughts that occur based on the responses above

• Regarding the need to 'ensure accuracy'; this is a admirable goal, but somewhat elusive as far as history is concerned. And citations and publications will not help much; publications cannot be revised as easily as a wiki, but they can be revised. See how, on the White House website, the words "Mission Accomplished" prominently displayed behind George Bush as he made his 'victory' speech, have now mysteriously disappeared from a video made by CNN.
• It is true that we can use published work as a citation. That is not the question or concern. The concern is about the rich (admittedly undisciplined) knowledge that is being discarded. One spectacular example. The Khoi-San have known for millenia that a certain plant has wonderful medicinal properties. A large pharmaceutical company discovered this 'fact' from the Khoi-San's oral 'knowledge' (no previous research or publications!), and have started the (admittedly expensive) process or providing it commercially. They refuse to compensate or acknowledge the contribution of the Khoi-San in any way (despicable, but understandable). The case is sub judicae, so please don't ask me for any citations or details. The point I am making is that valuable, real knowledge is being lost.

I don't think that wikipedia is the right place for this knowledge to be recorded. However, I do think that this community could be invaluable in helping to establish and manage a wiki where it can be recorded, and eventually fed into wikipedia.

I would presonally be pleased and proud to play any role in such a project as my skills and knowledge would permit.

not young enough to know everything 04:31, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Notability of legal cases

Is there an existing guideline on the notability of cases? I ask because Lindon v. First National Bank was recently posted, and an editor asked on its talk page whether it was available online. It's not, without recourse to LexisNexis. The problem is that a reasonable notability guideline, citation of the opinion in law review articles and other opinions, is also not easily available online, and I personally don't like Shepardizing any more than I have to. Mytildebang 17:58, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Should the discussion be about whether this one-paragraph article should be merged into name change? The availability, or not, of an on-line version of an 1882 U.S. court case seems a lesser issue. John Broughton | Talk

You're right. I was just wondering if there was a law-specific policy that could actually be applied to other cases. Mytildebang 00:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Redirection instead of deletion

A solution sometimes adopted on AfD is to redirect instead of delete a page. Generally this may or may not be a good idea. My question isn't there though.

Instead of proposing the deletion of an article, an editor insists on redirecting pages instead of listing them for deletion. Is there a policy to prevent this? If the content is to be removed, there isn't really a reason not to list it? -- User:Docu

No, because redirection is not deletion. WP:BOLD. Chris cheese whine 04:08, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, one can look at it from the vandalism perspective and consider conservation of information. If the redirection essentially eliminates substantial Misplaced Pages content from view, it is tantamount to page blanking or section removal, both of which are considered vandalism in the absence of good explanations for the actions. Merger+Redirect should be the preferred route over Redirect alone when there is the potential for removal of significant content. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 11:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. And this is why it is important to categorise redirects, or at least to have an easy way of listing all the redirects pointing at a page (the only way I know of at the moment is visually scanning the 'what links here' list for the 'redirect' label). Then the redirects can be examined to see if (a) they contain edit history of text that was merged to the destination (in which case it is vital to not delete the redirect without retaining the history somewhere); (b) the edit history of the redirect contains unmerged text that has been lost. Carcharoth 11:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The editor who changes an article to a redirect has the responsibility to move any appropriate content from the article becoming a redirect to the target article. For moved text, the edit summary should mention the name of the article that has become a redirect. If for some reason there is no content to be moved (e.g., the editor thinks virtually everyting is duplicated or dross), the editor should put a comment at the talk page of the target article saying that a redirect had been done and other editors were welcome to review what the former article said, to see if they wanted to incorporate anything. John Broughton | Talk 15:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Upgrading WikiLawyering to a guideline?

I think we should upgrade WikiLawyering to guideline status. I've seen this used a lot in the community, and it's already being treated like one. Several policy pages, such as WP:NPA and WP:3RR mention WikiLawyering as being a bad thing. It would definitely benefit the community. There's already been a ton of disruptive 3RR violations that sysyops can't do anything that's too uncontroversial because WikiLawyering is a simple essay. With this in place, there would be a lot less edit wars. That's for sure. -- Selmo 04:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree fundamentally, but isn't essentially the same concept expressed in the Ignore all rules policy? Mytildebang 04:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

IAR and WiliLawyering are related, but I wouldn't call it the same. IAR is more like the be bold guideline: don't worry about the rules, because someone else will fix it. WikiLawyering, while it in a way says we should ignore the rules, it's more focused on ignoring the technical interpretation of the rules, while it still requires editors to follow the spirit. -- Selmo 04:56, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This essay was essentially created in order to document a common piece of jargon, normally used in a pejorative manner, rather than to prescribe a particular course of action. Nobody ever does wikilawyering from their own perspective. Thus it doesn't particularly make sense as a guideline. Deco 10:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't upgrading this essay allow it to be used by those who are wikilawyering? Seriously. Carcharoth 11:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Wikilawyering is covered more by WP:POINT than by IAR. Even real courts have the power to say, "Clever argument, and you would appear to be right on the technicalities, but that is not what this particular law is meant to accomplish, and we don't intend to be a party to defeating the intent of the legislature." That is not ignoring the rules, it is implementing them with a clue. If Wikilawyering does not rise to the level of disruption, what is the need for a guideline? Robert A.West (Talk) 12:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the page as written is guideline material; it doesn't really provide much guidance on what to do. That said, it would be helpful to have a more detailed treatment of what rules are and aren't good for on Misplaced Pages. For a start, it would be good to have a line in WP:NOT to go alongside "not a bureaucracy" and "not a democracy" ... maybe "Misplaced Pages is not consistent"? Or perhaps Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is not governed by rules as a spinoff page expanding on the various Misplaced Pages-is-not-government items on the NOT page? -- Visviva 04:22, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

RFC on WP:FRINGE

A question has been raised at a recent RfD whether the guideline WP:FRINGE applies purely to fringe theories in the field of science, or whether it should apply to other fields as well. Please pop over to the guideline talk page and comment. Blueboar 15:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Notability (fandom)

I have proposed a guideline on Misplaced Pages:Notability (fandom) to help sort out articles on minor subjects. Some of these appear to be self-serving and/or POV, but the fan categories are not clearly delineated by other guidelines.Avt tor 16:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Notifying new users when their page is db'd

As a member of the Misplaced Pages:Welcoming committee, I just wanted to point out some major problems with Newpage Patrolling as it stands.

One of the duties of a NPPer is to mark bad pages with an appropriate db tag. However, while patrolling, I find a large number of users are (a) not notified their page was marked for deletion, therefore creating confusion on their part and not encouraging them to edit, a mild form of biting the newbies, and (b) not notified when their page was deleted, and for which reason. I am not impressed by the handling of these tasks. I admit I used to do the same, but recently I began to always warn the users.

Something needs to be done about this, even if a bot could be assigned. I am interested to see how other Wikipedians think about this. Cheers! Yuser31415 22:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

This is part of the reason why the new article text now says "Articles without reliable published sources are likely to be deleted." New users should read that before creating junk. --Centrx→talk • 22:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

New users should and probably do read the notice. What is considered junk is a matter of opinion, however. And that is no excuse for not notifying the user in question. Yuser31415 23:13, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

New users should, but rarely do, read anything at all before posting. As a prolific db-er, I have found that notifying them about a db tag actually involves less work than not notifying them. If they get nothing, they will think "Wonder what happened to that. Oh, well, I'll just create it again." It's also not hard, since there are standard notification templates. Doesn't hurt to add the {{welcome}} template above the notice if it remotely looks like they might be a potential useful contributor. Also, on the db-bio's, whenever possible, if the name's a close enough match to the username, or the article uses the first person, and the User page is a redlink, and the content is acceptable for a User page, just move it to the user page. Tag the leftover redirect with a {{db-r2}}. It's easier than having to explain eight times why they can't write about themselves. 90% of new editors will not try to recreate in articlespace if you leave the {{userfied}}. Fan-1967 23:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Disagree with characterization of that as mild newbie bites. It rejects peoples contributions, which is as big as a slap in the face as one can administer here outside of a direct personal attack. I've long felt all deletion tagging should require a mandantory talk page notice and an attempt to email the party.

This project page may meet Misplaced Pages's criteria for speedy deletion as a corrupt or empty file, or a file description page for a file on Commons. Try previewing a resized thumbnail before deleting. See CSD F2.%5B%5BWP%3ACSD%23F2%7CF2%5D%5D%3A+Corrupt+or+empty+file%2C+or+a+file+description+page+for+a+file+on+CommonsF2 If this project page does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, or you intend to fix it, please remove this notice, but do not remove this notice from pages that you have created yourself. If you created this page and you disagree with the given reason for deletion, you can click the button below and leave a message explaining why you believe it should not be deleted. You can also visit the talk page to check if you have received a response to your message. Note that this project page may be deleted at any time if it unquestionably meets the speedy deletion criteria, or if an explanation posted to the talk page is found to be insufficient. Nominator: Please consider placing the template: {{subst:Db-noimage-notice|Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)|header=1}} ~~~~ on the talk page of the author. Note to administrators: this page has content on its talk page which should be checked before deletion. Administrators: check links, talk, history (last), and logs before deletion. Consider checking Google. This page was last edited by Iantresman (contribs | logs) at 22:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC) (18 years ago)

At the least, substandard pages ought to be duplicated in user space as a courtesy if a speedy delete criteria is being applied, with some boilerplate guidance to where and how the newbie can get help improving the offense, whatever the decision criteria may be.

This project page may meet Misplaced Pages's criteria for speedy deletion as a corrupt or empty file, or a file description page for a file on Commons. Try previewing a resized thumbnail before deleting. See CSD F2.%5B%5BWP%3ACSD%23F2%7CF2%5D%5D%3A+Corrupt+or+empty+file%2C+or+a+file+description+page+for+a+file+on+CommonsF2 If this project page does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, or you intend to fix it, please remove this notice, but do not remove this notice from pages that you have created yourself. If you created this page and you disagree with the given reason for deletion, you can click the button below and leave a message explaining why you believe it should not be deleted. You can also visit the talk page to check if you have received a response to your message. Note that this project page may be deleted at any time if it unquestionably meets the speedy deletion criteria, or if an explanation posted to the talk page is found to be insufficient. Nominator: Please consider placing the template: {{subst:Db-noimage-notice|Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)|header=1}} ~~~~ on the talk page of the author. Note to administrators: this page has content on its talk page which should be checked before deletion. Administrators: check links, talk, history (last), and logs before deletion. Consider checking Google. This page was last edited by Iantresman (contribs | logs) at 22:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC) (18 years ago)

Ditto for Afd'd pages. Too bad if that takes extra time for the Admins, but it's common courtesy and respect for anothers time. In my experience, many admins are too jaded and perhaps don't appreciate how hard it is to write well, as most are good at that aspect too. That page may have taken someone four hours to put together that one such as they could do in five minutes. That's a lot of effort to smash.

This project page may meet Misplaced Pages's criteria for speedy deletion as a corrupt or empty file, or a file description page for a file on Commons. Try previewing a resized thumbnail before deleting. See CSD F2.%5B%5BWP%3ACSD%23F2%7CF2%5D%5D%3A+Corrupt+or+empty+file%2C+or+a+file+description+page+for+a+file+on+CommonsF2 If this project page does not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, or you intend to fix it, please remove this notice, but do not remove this notice from pages that you have created yourself. If you created this page and you disagree with the given reason for deletion, you can click the button below and leave a message explaining why you believe it should not be deleted. You can also visit the talk page to check if you have received a response to your message. Note that this project page may be deleted at any time if it unquestionably meets the speedy deletion criteria, or if an explanation posted to the talk page is found to be insufficient. Nominator: Please consider placing the template: {{subst:Db-noimage-notice|Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy)|header=1}} ~~~~ on the talk page of the author. Note to administrators: this page has content on its talk page which should be checked before deletion. Administrators: check links, talk, history (last), and logs before deletion. Consider checking Google. This page was last edited by Iantresman (contribs | logs) at 22:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC) (18 years ago)

Such courtesy shows we value the attempt, even if the standards are higher than the effort. A newbie doesn't know such deleted pages are retrievable, and may never learn. That should be information included in a parallell notice on their talk when a deletion is made. // FrankB 23:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

At the risk of being impolitic, a huge percentage of new articles are absolute garbage, and did not take any effort from the contributor at all, and quite frankly we don't value the attempt that much. If I see one more article whose entire content is "John smith is the biggest fag in xxx sixth-form college" or "Bob jones is the coolest guy in Watertown." I'm going to hurl. There are hundreds (thousands?) of these a day, and there's a limit on how much effort we should extend on welcoming their authors. Fan-1967 23:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, we get so many very embarassing pages that slip through and stay up for weeks or even longer that I don't think we should be doing anything to reduce the number of people who are willing to do newpage patrol. I've long said we need a better article creation process, I think the solution lies there for this too... if a page has been deleted, it should clearly display on that deleted page why the page was deleted when the creator returns. A javascript tool "notify creator" would be very helpful... just to post the deletion rational on the article creator's talkpage. It would take a repetitive task and make it very painless. --W.marsh 23:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for continuing to voice your opinions. I certainly agree with Fan-1967: "If they get nothing, they will think "Wonder what happened to that. Oh, well, I'll just create it again."" More than 99% of new article creators are intelligent people; even vandals may turn into our strongest contributors in ten years' time. I think we should make a special effort to help all of these people, and the least we can do is to notify them why their page is being or was deleted, so they can possibly resubmit it in a better form. Cheers! Yuser31415 23:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for replying to my argument and ignoring everything I said... --W.marsh 23:45, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

We don't have the resources to make a "special effort". Last I heard it's several thousand new articles a day, most of which get speedied, mostly from new editors. A very small percentage of those editors will stick around and become useful contributors. We don't want to bite them, but we really can't make the effort to coddle all of them. Fan-1967 23:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that suggested javascript tool would be quite helpful. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

(encountered an edit conflict) I think it is a matter of common sense as to when a new article's author (and Misplaced Pages) would benefit from notification of the impending deletion of the article aimed at the author - and what type of notification should be given. The examples put forth by Fan-1967 of "John smith is the biggest fag in xxx sixth-form college" and "Bob jones is the coolest guy in Watertown." are examples of things that would either not warrant notification or would warrant a warning not to add nonsense to Misplaced Pages. However, a one line (sub)stub on a company in Indonesia would likely warrant a positive and welcoming notification. The latter indicates some effort to constructively contribute to Misplaced Pages. I've not spent but a short time looking at new pages, so my opinion might change after substantial exposure to the environment, but that's my opinion as of the moment. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You are correct, and this is my feeling on the matter. We have initiative; let's use it. Vandalism is one side of the story and should be speedied with no notification; a good-faith edit that does not (currently) match our criteria warrants due attention and a friendly message to the creator. Should I put this in WP:NPP and WP:RCP anywhere? Yuser31415 00:01, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Just as an aside based on one of the comments above. Spend a few hours on NPP. Don't even tag anything, just open every newly created article you see, especially the ones from a redlinked user name. Get a feel for what's showing up. I think some of the people who make proposals on speedy deletion maybe don't have a full appreciation for what's coming in. Fan-1967 00:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

At any rate, until the software is improved, the solution for people concerned about article creators is to do newpage patrol themselves in a manner they agree with. (You might find your perspective changes a great deal once you are actually doing it, rather than commenting on it!) A lot of people propose to fix problems by adding various rules for admins to follow, but this really isn't practical because, if nothing else it's nearly impossible to enforce in any meaningful way. If an admin doesn't follow your rules, what can you really do but nag them? That's just how it is. --W.marsh 00:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought I'd spend a bit of time looking at the New Pages ... I just PROD'd Poloniumed and initiated transwikification of it ... first time I've punted on a brand new article and it seemed the right thing to do - but if I had to do that day in and day out I think I'd need counseling or grow a very thick skin or both. Hope the new user takes it well - it was their very first article, so I tried to be as kind as I could on their talk page. *sigh* User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:03, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have been doing NPP for a little while now and my perspective hasn't changed much. Okay, so blatant vandalism can go, the user expected it to, and no harm done. But when we request speedy deletion on an article about the Rare spotted red horse beetle (ie), it might just be useful and we could help improve it, mark it with 'cleanup', 'expand', or 'stub' templates. A lot of what I've seen are users just too lazy, or who claim 'they haven't enough time' to help that user improve the article. Let's just face it. Thousands of pages are created every day; about, in my opinion, a third of those could become real articles. And we should always notify the creator of the article unless we are absolutely sure it is pure vandalism. Agreement? Cheers! Yuser31415 02:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism to Monopoly (board game)

Um... I dont know if this the place to post this or not. In the article about the board game Monopoly, the original creator is called "big tit whore monger." This is clearly out of place, and I wanted to bring it to the community's attention. It should probably changed by someone who knows more about the game's history than I do. Thank you in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.9.76.149 (talk • contribs)

Dealt with ;) Yuser31415 06:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Human Rights

I am a representative of a non-governmental organization to the United Nations. This entails attending meetings, conferences, briefings; organizing any or all of the above; and lobbying member states for changes in policies that are of interest to our organization. I recently attended a briefing for the NGOs in observance of International Human Rights Day. One of the speakers was from Chile who spoke about some of the things the new president, Michelle Bachelet, is doing to improve human rights in her country. Unfortunately, I didn't find anything in your entry on Chile about human rights. Since this is such an important issue, I would ask that your Board of Editors consider creating a category on Human Rights practices for every country. Whoever is doing the writing on a particular country could go to the independent Human Rights Watch website and the UN Human Rights website to get information. Ultimately, aren't the human rights practices in a country just as important to know about as their art, music, language and culture?

Thank you for your consideration.

Charlotte Hubbell —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.174.5.110 (talk • contribs).

Is this U.N. spam? —Wknight94 (talk) 19:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

• We have "Human rights in..." articles on 83 countries so far, see Category:Human rights by country. Anyone can edit Misplaced Pages so if you'd like to improve the existing articles or create new ones, you can do it. If you have the pull to get the "UN Human rights website" to release their text under the GFDL that would probably spur development. --W.marsh 19:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Charlotte Hubbell, I hope that you agree with W.marsh. Your idea is good ; no Board of Editors exists here, however, anyone might try to collect help for the task - creating a project, &c. Does this answer your concern ? -- DLL 18:49, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The proposal is a good idea, although I don't think this person understands that she could make that contribution herself - and is probably in a position to supply some very useful information. It's interesting to see how non-Wikipedians think this site operates. Durova 22:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

New proposal/survey to clarify "use common names" guideline/convention

There is a new proposal and survey to clarify the meaning/applicability of the "use common names" guideline/convention. See WT:NC#Proposal: clarify meaning of "use most common name" guideline. --Serge 00:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

communication = notification be phone eMail and at least Snailmail

why not ALERT a user that our 'TOPIC' is about to be deleted or an important responce is in your Bit-Bucket ? ! ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by UNiRaC (talk • contribs)

Wait, what? Are you saying you want us to send you a postcard before AfDing "your" page? No. A talk page posting and maybe an e-mail is more than sufficient. --tjstrf talk 06:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

But most of the time, users don't even get a notification on their talkpage when an article is AfD'd. Admins just use their arbitrary powers to delete anything they don't like. Walton monarchist89 10:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Please (re)read WP:AGF - the view of most of us here, I believe, is that admins try their best (and usually succeed) in being objective about deletions.

Having said that, I do think that it could be a major improvement to have an automated system post a message on user talk pages (as is done, for example, with the Signpost), for, say, the person who created the article (but does NOT, as noted by someone else, own the article), and also post the same message on the talk pages of (say) the last ten editors (or, alternatively, anyone editing the page in the last 30 or 60 or 90 days). John Broughton | Talk 14:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

There are huge numbers of editors who fix typos, refine categories and DAB wikilinks on pages they have not made major content changes on. No bot could distinguish them from actual content editors. I would think most of them would be, uh, less than thrilled to start getting their Talk pages filled with notices like this. Fan-1967 14:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's keep things simple. Users want their page in good condition : they respect our policy and they put the page in their watchlist. They may use RSS too - see VP:Tech. -- DLL 18:45, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

List article title changes

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to change the titles of articles that are merely lists of people (such as List of Jews, List of atheists, etc.) to something more appropriate for its content, such as "List of notable Jews" or "List of notable Atheists". My reasoning for this proposal is simply that the articles are not intended (as far as I know) to actually catalog every Jew or Atheist in existence, but to catalog those worthy of mention. Thoughts? --Jmax- 07:50, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, and I can see your point - but, arguably, anyone who is included on Misplaced Pages at all ought to be "notable" in some way. So your proposed change might be redundant. Walton monarchist89 10:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I vote with the "redundant" camp. People added to these lists should either already have an article on Misplaced Pages, or qualify for one by reason of notability, in which case the redlink listed is a helpful reminder on what articles need to be created in a certain topic/category. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 12:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Original research and griefing

I'm familiar with wikipedia's policy on original research, and understand its value. From my experience, however, the are original research -- there are no serious academic articles on Bravestarr or Friendship Bracelets, and according to WP:NOR referencing websites doesn't count.

Because WP:NOR is an official policy despite the fact that it does not apply to most of Misplaced Pages, I've noticed that, in addition to its intended use as an extension of "Misplaced Pages is not for things you made up at school today", it's also being used by griefers to undermine articles about subjects they don't like, or just for random bullying.

For instance, I don't particularly care for Garth Brooks. If I were a griefer, I could "legitimately vandalize" the page by putting tags after almost every single sentence in the article, and drop a big WP:NOR banner on the top, and Misplaced Pages policy would actually support this vandalism rather than discourage it. Even if someone complained that I was abusing WP:NOR and that my usage was not in the "spirit" of the policy, the policy would still be on my side, and the best recourse the defenders of that article would have would be to wage an edit war against me and any literalists who felt that the word of the policy was more important than the spirit of the policy, and hope that we gave up on the edit war before they did.

I guess what this boils down to is that I think that WP:NOR and need to include sections on "when WP:NOR / is not necessary", because they're already starting to be abused. Luvcraft 16:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a work in progress towards the overriding goal of producing a world class encyclopedia. Someday, we will either have reliable sources for those vast majority of articles on Misplaced Pages that cross into the original search realm or the articles will be deleted. As for the here and now, a request for citation is a far leap from vandalism and even if it is annoying there is an easy solution to the problem--provide a source. There doesn't need to be a citation for every line since even an editor with minimum skills could craft an article to where an entire paragraph (or several lines) has a single source at the end. Agne 20:17, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see anything about "the overriding goal of producing a world class encyclopedia" in the Misplaced Pages article on Misplaced Pages. In fact I thought that that was the primary difference between Misplaced Pages and Nupedia, was that Misplaced Pages strived to be well-written but all-inclusive, while Nupedia was going to be the strict and official one. Is there an article somewhere about Misplaced Pages's goals that I'm missing? Luvcraft 20:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

To respond to an earlier note (and to keep this on track, maybe), WP:NOR and aren't necessarily related. That most or every sentence or section in an article, tagged or not, lacks a source is a WP:V problem. WP:NOR is where an editor essentially creates something out of whole cloth. Compare:

• On November 1, 2006, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. announced that Garth Brooks, made history as the company's top selling music artist of all time. That's either true or not true; it needs a reliable source for verification.

• Brooks' Oklahoma roots account for the wide range of his song-writing. Open skies and low population density -- emblamatic of Oklahoma and Texas - are highly correlated with a need to do a variety of tasks in order to make a living, something that Brooks experienced vicariously through the many jobs that his parents held and the many things that his neighbors did to scratch a living from of the land. That's "original research" (I just made it up). John Broughton | Talk 20:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Labelling "obviously bogus" theories as pseudoscience

A recent arbitration case (in which I was a subject) noted that:

Theories which, while purporting to be scientific, are obviously bogus, such as Time Cube, may be so labeled and categorized as such without more.

• Does this supersede Verifiability and Reliable sources, and should it be written clearly into policy somewhere?
• Should the editor who so labels an article be attributed as the source? --Iantresman 19:59, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it needs to supersede WP:V and WP:RS. If a reliable source (such as a peer reviewed journal in that field) proclaims that it is "obviously bogus" a mention of that can be made in the article. Similarly, if another reliable source disputes the "obviously bogus" claim, that too should be included as a conflict of views on the subject. I would be weary of editors going around slapping the "obviously bogus" tag (or removing it) without that strong connection to a reliable source. That would seem to trickle into original research. Agne 20:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I have one article described as pseudoscience, and the reference is to a Wired magazine article which seems to reference Misplaced Pages as its source. I've requested an alternative source, but none are forthcoming. I'm not disputing the critical sources. --Iantresman 22:03, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

CHICOTW

I would like to place {{CHICOTW}} (seen below) on the Chicago article page. It was moved very promptly to the talk page. Template:CHICOTW
The template is used to advertise the COTW on WikiProject Chicago and other Chicago/Illinois ect. related discussion boards and pages. It would be very useful in generating traffic to the WikiProject Chicago and its COTW pages. I think all Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cities should be able to place a collaboration notice on their corresponding cities article page. Is there a policy? If not I would like some feedback here. TonyTheTiger 22:13, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration appeals

Can arbitration cases be appealed? I found one reference to appealing,, but no further details? --Iantresman 22:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

1. such as I am strong-minded, you are obstinate, his is a pig-headed fool "My viewpoint is 'the common viewpoint', yours is 'the less common', his is 'intolerant'"

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