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Image/source check requests

FAC mentoring: first-time nominators

A voluntary mentoring scheme, designed to help first-time FAC nominators through the process and to improve their chances of a successful outcome, is now in action. Click here for further details. Experienced FAC editors, with five or more "stars" behind them, are invited to consider adding their names to the list of possible mentors, also found in the link. Brianboulton (talk) 10:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

FAC source reviews

For advice on conducting source reviews, see Misplaced Pages:Guidance on source reviewing at FAC.

FACs in the Time of Coronavirus

(With apologies to Magical Realism) This is a difficult time for everyone, around the world. (I had a talk this morning with my physician who is one of the world's experts on community-acquired pneumonia at one of America's major medical schools. He emphasized that social distancing has to be exercised as much as is possible, even to the extent of asking family members who live elsewhere to stay away, within reason, until a clearer picture has emerged, and putting up with attendant stresses. I say this not to show off, but to underscore the gravity of the situation.) Given what I heard, I have to think that the coming weeks are going to be stressful for everyone. I am requesting therefore in all earnestness that the usual schedule (whatever it is) for FACs and FARs being archived be relaxed until a clearer picture of the pandemic has emerged. The promotions are fine. But the archiving, in my experience, is highly stressful both for the nominators and reviewers. This may mean that what was two months might become three months, but unless nominators see the wisdom of withdrawing their nomination for off-FAC improvement, I think archiving should be put on hold temporarily. It is probably stressful for the FAC directors as well. Anyway, I don't know all the rules, but their fine-tuning can be worked out by the regulars here. @FAC coordinators: Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:57, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree that some of the archiving schedules should be relaxed a bit. It's difficult to get follow-up research or clarification when every library in the state is closed (as is the case in Washington). SounderBruce 02:54, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

I would say we should have a relaxed view of the pressures across Misplaced Pages specifically during the pandemic. Let me know if there is something specific I can do! (My time on wiki will be a little deminised than usual though.) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski 13:09, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

The social distancing could have mixed effects on Misplaced Pages and FAC. On the one hand, it may mean that some people may have more time on their hands to finally write those articles they've been thinking about for ages. On the other, access to research materials may be more difficult for a lot of people with libraries and archives closing their doors. Obviously we can't keep FACs open indefinitely if the article doesn't (quite) meet the criteria, but I'm sure the coordinators will be flexible where they can. Perhaps an FAC could be put 'on hold' somehow if a situation arises where the nominator can't get hold of a source to resolve a concern. But we can cross those bridges as we come to them. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Harry is exactly right (nice to see you back BTW!) -- the current situation will affect different people in different ways. Timings at FAC might well be more relaxed owing to effects it has on the coords as much as on nominators and reviewers -- for instance right now my work commitments have escalated owing to the effects of the panic on supply chains. I expect we'll continue to try to treat every case on its merits. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:15, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

@Ian Rose: Is there anything that can be done to ease the burden on you guys? I just looked at the nominations page and it is just swamped. I know all of you are quite busy as essential employees. Noah 22:10, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

I can't speak for the other guys just this minute but I suspect things will ease for me next week and I'll be able to spend more time here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:44, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The point of my original post was not to assert that people will have less time or more, but of probing the possibility of states of mind—born of anxiety and isolation—that could make it harder for them to edit, to respond promptly or judiciously to reviewers' or nominators' queries or responses, to even admitting to needing more time. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:47, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

It does appear the FAC list is longer than it has been for a long time? FunkMonk (talk) 10:23, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I've been doing some reviews, working up from the bottom of the list, and I think there are several nominations that have enough input for a decision now. The coordinators are probably busier than usual at the moment, but if there's anything that they want to see more reviews on before making a decision, it would be good to add those to the urgents list. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

My time constraints/issues on FAC reviewing over the last month have had nothing to do with COVID. I would like to be doing more to help out here, but that is not possible at the moment. I hope time constraints here are relaxed. If there is a FAC where my input might be useful, please do ping me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:45, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I went ahead and added three FACs that seem to me to be most in need of further comments to the urgents list. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:22, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

FAC for George Washington and slavery

The FAC for George Washington and slavery is approaching the bottom of the list. I can accept archival on the grounds of not meeting the criteria, but it would be a real shame for such a significant subject to fall short for lack of reviews, especially as three editors have put significant time and effort into reviewing so far. Any chance that I could tempt people to contribute a few more reviews, including a source review? Thanks. Factotem (talk) 13:39, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't think articles are ever archived if they have at least three supports and no opposes, though, so that shouldn't be a danger. FunkMonk (talk) 04:01, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm counting four supports thus far. The other two seem neutral to me. I think it only needs a source review, which I would do if I had any idea about the relevant material. Has it been requested? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:56, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I've done a source review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:16, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Citation-template change

Someone has changed {{cite book}}, {{cite news}} etc to make "ref=harv" the default, as it is with {{citation}}. It means that User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js and other scripts that warn when citations are missing are not warning when sources are in Works cited but not used as short cites.

In some cases (but strangely not all), the scripts are returning error messages when the templates are used in FR or Selected works (see right). To get rid of those warnings, I believe we have to add ref=none, but clearly we can't go around doing that or expecting that others will.

The degraded functionality of {{cite book}} etc has been done to make the templates work even when they aren't formatted properly. The change in error messages will have an effect on FAC source reviewing. Would anyone interested please add a comment to Misplaced Pages:Village pump (technical)#Change to CS1 (cite xxx) templates is showing warning messages to some editors using custom scripts? There is also a discussion at Help talk:Citation Style 1#Cite book Harv warning. SarahSV 21:40, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I've just looked at a recently promoted FA, George Washington and slavery, and it's a mess. The bibliography and FR sections are full of brown error messages for editors using User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js and perhaps other scripts. SarahSV 21:45, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

So that's why I'm suddenly getting obnoxious harv-ref errors, when I don't use harvrefs!! Thanks for the notice, Sarah. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:50, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Sandy, if you care about this, please say something in one of those discussions, preferably at the pump. We're being told we have to find our own solution. SarahSV 21:55, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't often find it productive to try to discuss with the bot/citation people :( But I added my voice there; I don't have time to engage that right now, because I am up to my eyeballs in That Other Thing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:56, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for saying something. The change means that writers and source reviewers will have to put up with the brown error messages or lose the scripts' warnings when a long citation has been added but not a short one. They've suggested several scripts but they all have the same problem. Pinging Ealdgyth. SarahSV 22:09, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

My circuit breakers are popping. THIS is why I used manual citations for years. I have unwatched; friendly friends may my edit my userspace scripts if a solution if found. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:11, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I've never used those scripts, so I'm not seeing the errors. I've always done my short cites by hand ... because I detest the lack of title in the sfn/harv system. When source checking, I've always just done it by "hand" - if the list is long, do a printout of the full cites and compare it to the short cites. Tedious, but ... --Ealdgyth (talk) 22:32, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

SarahSV Like you, I have spent a considerable amount of time today explaining the problem and the template people are not interested. We just have to live with it. Anyone who has the line importScript('User:Ucucha/HarvErrors.js'); in their common.js needs to add in a new line window.checkLinksToCitations = false;. This should get rid of the false error messages. Dudley Miles (talk) 23:58, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

window.checkLinksToCitations = false; also gets rid of at least one type of good warning (when there are long refs but no short). Dudley, there's a proposal here to have a bot remove ref=harv. I've opposed, whatever that is worth at this point. SarahSV 00:11, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

(I-support-this-change disclaimer) I don't think the CS1 people are ignoring the issue, I think they are saying that the added difficulty of having to redo a script or adding |ref=none whenever you use such a template for a bibliography list is not enough to justify overturning the change. Especially since having to add |ref=harv every time you use such a template with Harv referencing is also tedious and annoying. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:44, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

That is not the answer I get. I am told to ask for a script to solve the problem, and when I point out that no script can solve the problem I am told to go and ask for a script. The bottom line is that the people who are adversely affected by the change are few compared with the supporters, and it is a waste of time and energy to pursue the matter further. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:58, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I think both parts of this are correct. I think the correct solution for bibliography sections that are not linked to short link templates is to add |ref=none to suppress errors, not to write scripts. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:13, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

It would not be practical to go through all the existing articles which use cite book without harv referencing and add ref=none to each source. I also do not see the point. If I understand correctly, it will not be an error to use cite book without harv referencing. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:40, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

FAC page has exceeded the template include size

As in, it's now in Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded and the FAR/FARC sections are thus no longer visible. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:27, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to try to get some dealt with today... life outside wiki is a bit ... hectic for obvious reasons. --Ealdgyth (talk) 12:41, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I made a promotion/archive pass, which has got us past the hump. I'm going to be busy for a bit during the day, but am going to try to put on my reviewing hat and do some reviews shortly. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:49, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

As an aside - I'm wondering if the proliferation of Template:TQ is part of the problem? --Ealdgyth (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2020 (UTC)--Ealdgyth (talk) 13:40, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Good question Ealdgyth. I've tried to test it out at User:Jo-Jo Eumerus/FAC size test with this revision. The PPIS for the direct copy is 2047519 bytes - with templates omitted - and the Transclusion expansion time report. Substituting all the FACses brings it to 774955 bytes and the transclusion expansion time report The substituting the 222 tq instances brings the PPIS to 735749 and the transclusion expansion time report So it seems like the problem might be citation templates. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:54, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Not sure if you all are aware of the very old discussions in archives, where templates transcluded on FAC pages end up being counted twice, causing this problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:53, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I remember hearing comments to the effect that {{done}} is disallowed for this reason, yes. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:01, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

There's a whole lot of hatting with cot-cob, hat-hab (those count in the template transclusions). There are also lots of pingy-thingie transclusions. It would sure be nice if we could get reviewers to take their reams of prose nit-picks to article talk or the talk page of the FAC. This business of very long, nitpicky FACs is something I do not understand. Long discussions on article talk, with a summary link back to the FAC, would do the job. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:19, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I've moved the cites I added to the Women's Cricket FAC to the article's talk page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:08, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I've also moved the single hatted bit in my review to the article's talk page. Please tell me if that has made a difference. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:18, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm responsible for a lot of cot-cob, which I shall try to be more careful with ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Dunno if this has been mentioned before, but would it help (and/or feck things right up!) if we gave FAR, FLC their own pages? I know they're generally not so busy as FAC, but they must still bring one helluva lot of transclusion with them, so we could hive them off and shorten the page considerably in one stroke. Also—from more of an "optics" sense I guess—it would also demonstrate that they are all equals. At the moment, they are crushed beneath a burgeoning FAC page—I'd already been at fac a few times before even realising that they were there! And if they had their own pages, it might make it easier to encourage editors to participate (hypocrite, 54129!). But perhaps there's a technical reason for having the one page; if so, as you were  :) ——SN54129 18:54, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Confoozled ... what do you mean by FLC? If they are transcluded here, I am not seeing them? As to removing FAR, I think the number of FACs, FARs etc is not the problem as much as items transcluded on them. IT's not size per se that causes the problem, rather number of transclusions. I had a lot of transclusions at FAR, which might have been part of the problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:13, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

SN, FAR does have its own page as well. The list of noms is transcluded here in addition to that to get more eyes on. Looking forward to seeing your participation ;-) Nikkimaria (talk) 00:27, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Check! Apologies for creating more confusion  :) ——SN54129 11:45, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Sandy, per both Jo-jo’s note above and my own recollection of the old discussions, I’m pretty sure that cot & cob (and tq and its ilk) are harmless - it’s complex nested templates that cause the problem. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:43, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Mike, TechnoDumbie101 ... what is a complex nested template? Some examples? (There is also a lot of color on the page.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:22, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

I've done another test run, with "collapse" templates substed rather than "tq" and it yields a PPIS of 595858 and a Transclusion expansion time report while substing the "cit" templates yields a PPIS of 583845 and a Transclusion expansion time report So I'd say that tq does not add nearly as much as both collapse and cit* templates. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:49, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

References

1. Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template) 100.00% 1992.314 1 -total
   • 23.16% 461.470 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review
   • 12.62% 251.389 2 Template:Reflist
   • 11.78% 234.694 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review/Asperger_syndrome/archive4
   • 9.70% 193.315 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_candidates/2009_Women's_Cricket_World_Cup_Final/archive2
   • 8.21% 163.648 1 Template:Reflist-talk
   • 7.13% 142.011 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_candidates/Rigel/archive1
   • 6.88% 137.016 24 Template:Cite_journal
   • 6.77% 134.800 11 Template:Citation
   • 5.97% 118.903 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review/Ian_Smith/archive1
2. Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template) 100.00% 2038.814 1 -total
   • 24.82% 506.117 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review
   • 15.81% 322.327 11 Template:Citation
   • 13.18% 268.629 2 Template:Reflist
   • 11.11% 226.509 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review/Asperger_syndrome/archive4
   • 7.73% 157.592 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review/Ian_Smith/archive1
   • 7.28% 148.357 1 Template:Reflist-talk
   • 7.23% 147.373 24 Template:Cite_journal
   • 6.15% 125.468 1 Template:Talk_ref
   • 6.12% 124.731 1 Template:FAC-instructions
3. Transclusion expansion time report (%,ms,calls,template) 100.00% 1910.896 1 -total
   • 25.04% 478.532 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review
   • 15.77% 301.354 11 Template:Citation
   • 11.94% 228.228 2 Template:Reflist
   • 10.63% 203.174 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review/Asperger_syndrome/archive4
   • 7.50% 143.292 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review/Ian_Smith/archive1
   • 6.64% 126.943 24 Template:Cite_journal
   • 6.41% 122.508 50 Template:Font_colour
   • 6.40% 122.206 93 Template:Ping
   • 6.31% 120.667 1 Template:FAC-instructions
4. (%,ms,calls,template) 100.00% 1569.205 1 -total
   • 18.92% 296.911 11 Template:Citation
   • 9.24% 144.984 1 Template:FAC-instructions
   • 7.06% 110.766 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review
   • 6.97% 109.386 229 Template:Tq
   • 6.69% 104.917 50 Template:Font_colour
   • 6.48% 101.689 94 Template:Ping
   • 5.80% 91.083 3 Template:Shortcut
   • 5.39% 84.653 149 Template:Trim
   • 4.83% 75.747 355 Template:Xt
5. (%,ms,calls,template) 100.00% 1534.343 1 -total
   • 8.51% 130.641 1 Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review
   • 7.76% 119.035 1 Template:FAC-instructions
   • 7.12% 109.260 94 Template:Ping
   • 6.61% 101.462 50 Template:Font_colour
   • 5.68% 87.176 229 Template:Tq
   • 5.53% 84.801 149 Template:Trim
   • 4.24% 64.992 1 Template:Short_description
   • 3.66% 56.168 49 Template:Re
   • 3.61% 55.349 355 Template:Xt

Jo-Jo, I don’t know what that means. Are you saying it was all the citations in those two (now-archived) FARs? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 11:53, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Sandy, what I meant was that when a page is transcluded and it in turns transcludes other templates, that causes much more burden than a simple template such as tq that doesn't transclude anything else within it. For example, {{cot}} and {{cob}} are simple, but using the {{collapse}} template puts anything in the collapsed text inside it, so if that includes more templates you have nested transclusions. As I recall, that caused much more of a problem that non-nested transclusions. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:10, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the cite templates on the Asperger's FAR were within a collapsed section, which was transcluded onto the FAR page, which was transcluded here, so you had a nest, inside a nest, inside a nest, inside a nest. That's why that FAR was causing 10% of the page burden. DrKay (talk) 12:27, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Got it (until I forget it, and someone has to remind me again :) And besides, so sad to see a Eubulides Featured article bite the dust ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:46, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

How about promoting a half dozen or so articles? What's holding up Mercenary War - Rigel -Operation Rösselsprung (1944) -MAX Red Line - Charles Duke - Spacewar! - Ice dance - Midland Railway War Memorial? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:01, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

• Normally, I am not inclined to play "why haven't you archived such-and-such-an-article" but ... in the interests of clarity: * Well, the war memorial is held up by image issues - specifically alt text. Ice dance has just two supports and an outstanding oppose that needs addressing. Spacewar only has two supports. Charles Duke needs at least a source review and Kees08 is in the middle of a review. I just promoted MAX Red Line as it needed a resolution from one reviewer. Operation Rösselsprung (1944) Ian is dealing with that one as he has commented on the nom page. Rigel has two active reviewers. Mercenary War has some outstanding concerns by Buidhe and the source review needs revisiting from Nikkimaria. --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:05, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

What constitutes a reliable source?

There's a discussion going on at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Neanderthal/archive1#Comments by Dudley about the inclusion of recent discoveries in paleo articles (which is standard practice), specifically if these violate NPOV constituting as primary sources; the verifiability of books as opposed to journal articles; and more generally what counts as a reliable source especially in articles with large scopes. We would appreciate more input   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  15:20, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Pinging Doug Weller, who commented there but may not be watching this page. I think this is an interesting test case. FAs on specialized scientific topics (e.g. Ferugliotherium) have always relied heavily on papers, not books. FAs on broad topics that are not undergoing rapid changes as research continues (e.g. Norman Conquest of England) can rely almost entirely on books, which perform the survey function we need: they filter out (or at least identify) fringe theories and state what the mainstream positions are. A large topic in a continuously evolving field, such as Neanderthal, doesn't fit either paradigm. The books are almost always going to be significantly out of date, and frankly may also be less well peer-reviewed than the papers. Omitting material from journals is going to give readers an out-of-date perspective; for example, the fact that Neanderthals had woven cord, and hence perhaps fabrics, is from this paper published just three weeks ago. I mention this one in particular because when I asked an academic archaeologist I know for an opinion on this question, he pointed to this paper as one that would have to be included for the article to be regarded as comprehensive, but which would not be included in a book summary for several years. He commented that nobody should be even trying to write an article like this without having immersed themselves in the sources, so that they can tell what the fringe theories are and what is accepted. Dunkleosteus77 says in the FAC nomination that they've done that, and I see no reason to doubt it, but that sort of overall knowledge of the field is not directly citable -- I can't quickly validate that Dunkleosteus77's decisions on what sources to include or omit are correct. I don't know what the solution is but I think it's fair to say that 1b, comprehensiveness, can't be met if we go only with survey sources for this article, and 1c, verifiability, is hard to meet if we don't, because of the question of selection of sources. Overall I'm inclined to think that Dunkleosteus77 has done the right thing by including recent research, but I don't know how to review that at FAC without involving a subject-matter expert. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:53, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

One issue with journals is that if they are recent, they haven't received any second-party commentary and thus it's not clear how much weight they deserve. Notice African humid period#Effect on other climate modes, the third paragraph specifically. Another issue is that books are harder to access, and I think there are philosophical disagreements on the relative roles that books and journals should play in article building. Finally, the ever-popular "firsthand = primary" fallacy. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:17, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

I see it from a science perspective: A paper (journal article) has to cite/discuss all other papers that are directly relevant for its results, fully independently of the quality of those papers; this is compulsory (books are much less relevant). The mere existence of a journal article makes it and its claims relevant, and its claims should consequently be considered relevant for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. The reader has to be informed that this claim exist (of course, they should be presented as opinions, not as facts). For a narrow topic where it is possible, every paper should be covered, we cannot select based our own subjective assessment on what is reliable or not. We need to rely on the independent peer-reviewers who accepted the paper for publication. The question remains, though, what to do when the topic gets broader, when we need to summarise and leave less important stuff out. Here I think we must, in the end, rely on the judgement of the author on what is relevant and what is not. Waiting for evaluation by other sources can't be a solution, because this happens far too infrequently; even after a decade a claim might have been referenced numerous times by papers but never got supported nor questioned. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 17:14, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

There are two related issues.

1. The Neanderthal article is mainly based on articles, and the nominator justifies this on the ground that books are unreliable, and articles are to be preferred. I do not agree. Both are biased to a greater or lesser degree, but it is simple for a reader to check reviews by experts of a book. This is difficult or impossible for non-expert readers with articles. Misplaced Pages articles should be written so that readers can assess them for themselves, not trust in the reliability of the editors, which is necessarily the case with an article mainly based on journal articles. In addition, reliance on articles biases the article towards new findings and against the large body of facts accepted over a long period. A book cannot include findings which emerged since it was published, but these are small compared with the body of established knowledge, and articles can be used where new findings are widely accepted. A crucial point raised by Doug Weller is that peer reviewed articles about new discoveries are primary sources, and WP:SECONDARY states "Policy: Misplaced Pages articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources." A principal reliance on primary sources is against Misplaced Pages policy. It is also a fallacy that articles are easier to access than books. I can consult a book in a library, borrow it or buy it. I do not have access to most science articles as they are behind paywalls, and I am not willing to pay to significant amounts to read an article of a few pages.

2. The second issue is whether to include new findings which have not been reviewed by other experts, such as the claim that Neanderthals used string. I think that we should wait to see whether such claims stand up, otherwise we may mislead readers. Misplaced Pages should be an encyclopaedia summarising well established facts, not a blog covering speculative claims. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:37, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Coming from both a science and an arts background, I am fully in agreement with Mike Christie and Jens Lallensack. Journal articles are peer reviewed, and are not primary sources. The primary source is the raw data from which the report was written, and the journal article writers analyse, evaluate and interpret that data. Whether a source is behind a paywall, and how easy or hard it is to get your hands on it has never been a criterion for us. (WP:PAYWALL) We owe it to our readers for articles to be both comprehensive (WP:FACR) and up to date (WP:NOTFALSE). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:27, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

That is certainly not the usual treatment here of journal articles describing new research relating to physical material/findings, whether Neanderthal textiles or results of drug trials. From WP:PRIMARY: "a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment". It also has "Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them." See WP:MEDRS for more detail on the treatment of medical papers, though I'm not saying this topic needs the full MEDRS treatment. Johnbod (talk) 01:51, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

For MEDRS that makes sense because of the Replication crisis, as the sheer number of biomedical studies come out and subsequently cannot be replicated is enormous, not to mention issues with fraudulent papers with manipulated western blots and histologies etc. However I would considered paleontological papers in most cases to have more robust conclusions than biomed papers because there is significantly less volume of them, in comparison to Biomed where citing a single study rather than a review article for a long passage would constitute undue weight, and the conclusions are largely observational rather than experimental, which means that their conclusions can be more easily analysed by other experts without necessarily having access to the original data. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:59, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

As I said, "I'm not saying this topic needs the full MEDRS treatment", but you haven't addressed WP:PRIMARY. Johnbod (talk) 13:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I think there's a delicate balance to be struck here. Papers are generally reliable for the state of the field at the time of writing, thanks to the peer review process; but it's also true that cutting-edge science can sometimes reflect the authors' views about a particular topic, and in that way may not be representative of the field simply because the field often has not come to a consensus on topics that are being actively researched at the moment. Excluding papers, therefore, isn't a good idea; but we need to exercise caution when using them, by ensuring that all relevant papers (or a representative sample, if the literature is large) have been surveyed, and by using appropriate attribution. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:14, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm broadly in agreement with Doug and Dudley. New journal articles need to be treated with some caution, and for example it may be not appropriate to give their findings in WP's voice, but in a more distanced way "a 2020 article claimed ..." or something. There are many false dawns. This is a pretty striking claim, & if the specialist community generally accepts it, it should not be long before sources that are certainly secondary start to repeat it. Johnbod (talk) 01:51, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm broadly in agreement with Doug, Dudley, Vanamonde, and Johnbod. When publications in a field can begin with "A new Bayesian algorithm ..." OR "RT-PCR protocol ..." OR "Substitution Rate Analysis ..." OR "Macroevolution ..." and end with "ancient DNA," which Misplaced Pages author will volunteer that they have the knowledge of the special techniques and the maturity and wisdom of the overall field to gauge the depth of the contribution? What means will they be employing to make that judgment? Reading the abstracts and introductions? For it is unlikely that they will get much farther—uniformly—in all those publications, even with specialist knowledge in one sub-field. That is why it is imperative, and non-negotiably so, for a review of the literature to appear in a journal and for the new result to be assigned due weight. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:27, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

And what to do when those literature reviews don't exist? Don't write the article in the first place? Reduce all affected articles, including all our dinosaur FAs, to mere stubs? Using original journal articles is the only possible way to write those articles, and we are doing it for two decades now. Of course we need to be careful, always give attribution, and cite all relevant articles to ensure proper weight. A complete understanding of a technical paper is often not required as we typically only report its main conclusions. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

There are two issues here. A journal article—not a preliminary announcement in a "refereed" mega-journal with lightning fast turnaround time, and hefty publication fee, but a proper journal article, say, in the American Journal of Human Genetics—will certainly decide reliability. But please tell me how the Misplaced Pages author will be assigning due weight to a journal article? Please also tell me which journals are these that do not have reviews of literature every so often? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:31, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

A mega journal does not necessarily have a fast turnaround time, and surly not reduced reviewing standards. Most journals do not frequently publish review articles. The question is rather what topics are not covered by such literature reviews. Lets take a more recent FAs as example, Spinophorosaurus – there is not a single literature review that is even tangentially relevant here. The article is completely based on primary sources. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 05:48, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

And as for the weight to be given to each paper: We try to cover all relevant papers, and we give them equal weight. Of course, one paper might require more text then another, but that depends on the number of claims the paper makes, and on the number of words needed to explain those to a general audience. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 06:12, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Another thing to clarify is whether we are talking about reliability or about secondaryness. People commonly conflate them and this often causes great confusion but they are separate aspects of a source; a peer-reviewed article in a reputable journal advancing a new theory is a reliable primary source while a no-name blogger summarizing multiple research papers is an unreliable secondary source. In my opinion, a number of research papers can be considered to be both primary and secondary; the paper positing a new theory is a primary source for the new theory it advances while it is a secondary source for the background information the authors gleamed from earlier literature on the subject. Review articles such as these demanded by WP:MEDRS would be a special case where there are no new conclusions so everything is treated as secondary. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 11:07, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Those above commenting that surveys are necessary before journal articles can be used have not, as far as I can see, responded to Jens' point that many dinosaur articles (and of course many others) rely entirely on journal articles, with no review sources whatsoever, and that that has always been treated as acceptable.

And what about the question of knowledge of a field? I've seen many FAC comments to the effect of "you need to read all these sources thoroughly, not just skim the abstracts and look in the indexes", meaning that a good knowledge of the field is needed to select information. We've always said that's necessary, and it's never been citable. When Hoxne hoard was nominated at FAC, the nomination statement included the sentence "The involvement of the British Museum experts, including people who have spent much of their careers working directly with the Hoard, hopefully means we can be unusually sure of meeting criteria 1b and 1c." Of course that was true, yet if Dunkleosteus77 were to suddenly reveal that they are an internationally recognized expert on Neanderthals, in theory that wouldn't change anyone's mind. I think this is the dilemma at the core of this issue -- we want experts, but for good reason credentials do not confer authority here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:46, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Rules are a good guide but have to be tempered with common sense. Dinosaur articles often have to be written from primary sources because no reliable secondary sources exist, but that is not a reason to dispense with the rules where good secondary sources do exist. There are reliable secondary sources on Neanderthals, and readers can more easily consult them than articles behind paywalls. They should be the basis of the explanation of the large body of agreed knowledge, with exceptions for new findings which are well supported by experts but have not yet been covered in books. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:30, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Porque no los dos? Individual claims in articles can be cited with multiple references for readers with differing levels of technical knowledge or access to books/journals. Abyssal (talk) 15:43, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I realize that WP:SCIRS isn't policy (it maybe should be?), but it seems relevant to this discussion as a precedent for how sourcing is tackled in the natural sciences. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 21:05, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Paleontology articles

Mike and Jens, I've just skimmed the lead of the Neanderthal article. It cites a number of review articles, books, the best-known journals (PNAS, Journal of Human Evolution), and some of the best-known researchers, Finlayson for example. I have not examined the FAC review, but I would have few issues with the lead.

• However, examine the article Spinophorosaurus.
• Why is almost nothing cited to the major journals in paleontology?
• How do you explain half its citations being to one PLOS One article (cited 25 times)? Explain also why pretty much 95% or more citations are to articles, conference abstracts, even blogs written by the authors of that first article, or their students and post-docs? Explain why a large number is by a recently-minted Ph.D., D. Vidal (2019)?
• What aspect of WP:DUE is the sentence, "In a 2013 conference abstract, paleontologist Pedro Mocho and colleagues re-evaluated the phylogenetic relationships of the genus by incorporating further information from newly prepared bones ..." hanging its hat on when the author in question was a beginning graduate student and we are never told if the abstract was expanded and published in a proper journal?
• I have nothing against graduate students or post-docs but do you see a major issue of DUE here and of the possibility of the unwitting use of Misplaced Pages to highlight research in a manner that is out-of-sync with the attention the research is receiving in the top journals of the field? Forget a mention in a review, they are not even being published.
• I could round up graduate students in math, theoretical physics, computational chemistry or computational genomics, and they could be submitting FACs that very likely no one on WP but they will understand enough to write a competent review? What then? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I've been advised that the discussion has continued here. In lieu of repeating my comments, I'll respond to the new comments above.

• Why is nothing cited to the major journals? This is a vertebrate palaeontology paper. There is no point publishing it in a palaeoclimatology journal. Perhaps you should look up major journals in vertebrate palaeontology. PLOS ONE and PeerJ are considered, at least within the field, to be the top open-access journals, ranking among the likes of the Journal of Vertebrate Palaeontology.
• Why is everything cited to one article? The descriptive statements on history and anatomy that constitute much of the article are most reasonably sourced to the original paper describing the specimen. In particular, the anatomy can be verified by anyone with knowledge of dinosaur anatomy, so there is no point addressing it in a subsequent publication if the interpretation is non-controversial. Imagine what papers would be like if they repeated anatomical descriptions of every single specimen involved.
• Why is everything by the same few people? It's a narrow field with few researchers. Ortega and Sanz have major contributions elsewhere in vertebrate palaeontology.
• Why is everything by PhD students? Following directly on the previous point, you will notice that Ortega is a co-author on papers by both Vidal and Mocho.
• Should we give undue attention to graduate students? Well, how would you write the article then?

Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 17:02, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I think the expectarion of "high impact" for paleontology is fundamentally mistaken. Vert Paleo is primarily an observational rather than an experimental discipline where it is ultimately the fossils themselves, rather than any innovative experiment that gets you into a top journal. There are other disciplines like this, for example i've seen much discussion on twitter between geologists about how almost no sedimentology articles ever get into Science or Nature because they're simply not exciting enough. Vertebrate paleontology is a whole different kettle of fish to disciplines like biomed or physics, and you should adjust your expectations accordingly. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:15, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

You don't see a conflict of interest here? Fields such as mathematics, which have many high-impact journals, some going back 300 years, have six FAs on Misplaced Pages; on the other hand, non-avian dinosaurs, which are very likely all Vert Paleo, as you put it, have nearly 60. What do you say to the proposition that, deliberately or unwittingly, the authors and nominators of these FAs are attempting an impact on Misplaced Pages which the authors they cite are not receiving in their fields through the conventional avenues of peer-recognition? Instead of seeking changes in the standards of peer-recognition in their fields, they are attempting to change the well-worn standards of encyclopedicity, seeking special dispensations for their fields. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:52, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Paleontology is not a discipline that is about the "top" people in their field. as the discipline at all levels depends on access to specimens. Many are independent researchers who produce the same quality of work as those employed at the top universities. Many scholars complain about the metricization of science with impact factors and so on so I don't understand why you think this is so important. Ultimately, a publication on Paleontology in the PeerJ isn't of any different prestige or quality to one published in PLoS one or Scientific Reports. Most academics have a distain for wikipedia as an unreliable source anyways, so I'm not sure what you're getting at manipulating wikipedia for prestige. I remember having a conversation with my Professor at a UK university saying that because Vert Paleo papers got into Nature and Science more often than those of other disciplines and consequently had a higher value on the Research Excellence Framework, the number of positions for Vertebrate Paleontontologists at UK research universities substantially increased. I think that probably has a significantly more substantial effect than people writing wikipedia articles. I think the main reason Paleontology has more FA's is that there are more wikipedia editors interested in the topic. I think another issue is that it's difficult to present a mathematical topic well to a general audience assuming no prior knowledge without going into lecture territory, while it is much easier to create a relatively accessible article on a single extinct organism. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:37, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are Vert Paleo articles appearing in Nature, Science, PNAS, or not? If so, how is it that there is no tertiary source, no textbook, no research monograph, no review of literature—the excuse being made above for Spinophorosaurus—which can help in determining due weight? How does a WP reviewer judge that FA? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:37, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Just a quick interjection to say that I’ve added a subheading for this conversation to make it easier for others to continue with the original discussion above, as this is a digression into a particular case. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:45, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes Paleontology papers do appear relatively often in Nature and Science, my point is though that this depends on the quality of the specimens, not the research a spectacular fossil of a feathered dinosaur is much more likely to get into Nature or science than say a study on fossil algae, regardless of the quality of the work done. But the quality of the fossil does not depend on research, it mostly depends on luck and access. There are huge access issues in paleontology where researchers haven't let other workers study important specimens for years while not publishing on it themselves, a dynamic which is completely absent in experimental disciplines. Also because there are relatively fewer papers coming out, if the diagnosis of a specimen is obviously wrong (like mistaking a turtle for a pterosaur), then it is likely that the study will recieve a published rebuttal. Also monographs are published in vertebrate paleontology, but these tend to be technical works describing a single species, with the bone morphology covered in exhaustive detail, and therefore do not provide a broad view of the field. There are published textbooks on vertebrate paleontology, but the rapid pace of discovery in the field in the last decade (the so called "golden age of paleontology") means that these are likely to soon be out of date as new studies overturn long held ideas. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:10, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I would also argue that the subject matter of vertebrate palaeontology is inherently unsuitable for these kinds of reviews or monographs.

As I previously noted, rehashing all of the details of history and anatomy for a particular group that are already covered by the original papers wastes a lot of time best put into new research. Indeed, subsequent papers cite these original descriptions matter-of-factly when it comes to anatomical details. (If anything, such citations lend credence to the original descriptions, but I seriously doubt that citing every such secondary citation is useful for a Misplaced Pages article.) So that's half of the Misplaced Pages article covered.

It's for this reason that the vast majority of phylogenetic analyses in papers can arguably be said to be incremental work, unless there is significant controversy. Papers that broadly cover systematics and phylogeny for a particular group exist, but they usually consist of a) reiterating previous research without comment and b) novel analytic results that really do not constitute secondary commentary. A notable example that comes to mind is . But even such papers are rare and require gargantuan effort on the level of a graduate thesis or more.

The fragmentary nature of fossils also means that some areas of research are fundamentally applicable only to particular species. Take Spinophorosaurus and recent studies on its posture: . The vast majority of dinosaur specimens are not that complete, and so it is pointless to synthesize such research among its close relatives because there really is not that much to speak of. Review papers like are therefore extremely general. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 01:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I wish to additionally note that in the specific case of the posture study cited above, there is already extensive discussion available to read about the paper, but the manner of its publication means that we have little or even absolutely no way to cite this commentary in any articles here. The most "citable" "review" that exists is in a self-published blog post by sauropod researcher Mike P. Taylor , where the conclusions are deemed probable although additional data is considered needed. The entire remainder of the discussion by any published authors, beyond comments on that blog post, is present on multiple threads on twitter that we have absolutely no way of citing here because of their impermanence. But this discussion between "experts" of the field (Hartman, Taylor, Vidal) exists, despite not being represented in a book or other format that would make the original publication "acceptable" according to some viewpoints of this discussion. IJReid  01:56, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

From my observation nearly all such commentary stays online, unless there are particularly egregious issues (e.g. , although this paper is not even peer-reviewed yet and probably will not be for years). Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 02:11, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I would personally consider the SVPOW post citable, as per WP:RSSELF Michael P. Taylor is an established expert in the field of sauropod dinosaur anatomy. (Full disclosure, I once met Dr. Taylor at a conference) Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• Like I also stated at the Neanderthal FAC, personally I like using book sources here and there in palaeontology articles if such are available covering a given topic, because they often give a good overview of the literature for large and complicated topics, such as the woolly mammoth or Smilodon. But often with more obscure animals, such sources simply don't exist, so I don't see how we could write meaningful articles for such cases if we don't use the journal articles alone. In the case of the Neanderthal article, I do agree some book sources could be consulted, if not just to show that a comprehensive survey of the literature has been conducted, but I'm not sure it should be grounds for failure if they aren't. FunkMonk (talk) 14:38, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

All fields have heuristics, i.e. relatively unstructured, ad hoc, sometimes high-level other times low-level methods of reasoning and evaluating. When physicists, mathematicians, sociologists, linguists, or literary critics work, argue, explain ideas to each other, they often use professional heuristics; they don't talk in the way new graduate students do or people who are still cutting their teeth in the field.

However, when they present the same material to Scientific American or the New York Times they use conventions of explanation appropriate for those publications and their readership, i.e. their explanatory heuristics. Misplaced Pages has its own heuristics for assessing reliability, assigning due weight, and more informally for presenting "engaging prose." They exist for readers, reviewers, and editors alike. They might not be the best fit for any single field but have been judged to be good overall.

Not you @FunkMonk:, but @Lythronaxargestes, Hemiauchenia, IJReid, and Jens Lallensack: are offering professional heuristics. I am also being pointed to the FA Spinophorosaurus as an example of why Misplaced Pages's conventions are not relevant for some articles in paleontology. I am being told that the original 2009 paper and its spin-offs are really all there is, that we should not look for the usual Misplaced Pages benchmarks: textbooks, monographs, review articles in journals, or the "reviews of the literature" sections within articles in the more conventional journals of paleontology. So, fine, let's say, for a moment, I agree with them.

That brings me to "engaging prose," which in my view, has less to do with style, grammar or flow (though those are important), as with the ability to change, alter, or transmute professional explanations to everyday ones—but in a manner that conforms to the explanatory style of the field, the pedagogical heuristics if you will. The reason to have books or other secondary or tertiary literature is that they demonstrate it to us, reader and editor alike, for a specific field and for a target audience.

If books or other models or benchmarks of explanatory heuristics do not exist, then the topic is not ready or appropriate for an encyclopedia, especially one in which articles exist to be judged by non-professionals. Therefore when some sentences in a PLOS One article:

As indicated by generalized North African forms close to the root of Neosauropoda like Jobaria , as well as by the wide paleobiogeographic distribution of Upper Jurassic Diplodocoidea , , , the origin of neosauropods and several subgroups may also be located in the Jurassic equatorial region. Following this idea, equatorial Pangaea might be interpreted as a ‘hotspot’ with respect to sauropod evolution, an issue to be explored in more depth in future works. In this context, Spinophorosaurus represents a key taxon for understanding the early diversification and ecological specialization of the sauropods in the Jurassic, which obviously was strongly driven also by climatic and phytogeographic factors, and not solely by continental differentiation."

are paraphrased as

"Since Jobaria of North Africa is close to the base of Neosauropoda, and because neosauropods such as diplodocoids were widely distributed in the Upper Jurassic, neosauropods and some of their subgroups may also have originated in the equatorial region of Jurassic Pangaea, which may have acted as a "hot spot" in sauropod evolution. The Jurassic diversification of sauropods was possibly controlled by climatic zones and plant biogeography, rather than just continental differentiation."

we have no way of knowing if the summary conforms to any tradition of the field, for no tradition has been offered. So DUE is not the only reason to need books. Summarization, and therefore Misplaced Pages's notion of encyclopedic information, are dependent on them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that we need books on the exact subject of an article (instead of, for example, a more inclusive subfield) to determine how to write the article in an accessible way? That doesn't make sense to me. The same kind of language is prevalent across all literature in at least dinosaur palaeontology, and for the more general cases a variety of books and articles by subject experts are available. We adhere to the kind of writing we see there. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 17:58, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Popular dinosaur/paleontology books do exist, so there are "translations" for laymen that can be used as general reference. Even if they don't exist for a specific dinosaur species, the way other species have been treated in popular works can be applied to them. That is for example what the dinosaur glossary is used for. FunkMonk (talk) 17:59, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Also, this is not only an issue of paleontology articles. In 2015 we had the bird FAC Perijá tapaculo, which was nominayed the same year the species was described, which is of course not enough time for it to be covered in secondary literature. Yet I was the only one who raised concerns about this, and it was promoted (with my support). FunkMonk (talk) 19:51, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I think it's worth noting that the estimated size of the entire Vert Paleo field is around 2500 workers, not counting the churn of grad students and post-docs, it's really not a big field. Ultimately, what is the point you wish to make here? Do you think the current prose is too technical? Do you think that obscure taxa that are only covered by a handful of journal articles fail wikipedia's notability guidelines? Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Of course, neither of those. But there might be a concern that the FA criteria cannot be met, as with some other niche subjects. Johnbod (talk) 21:32, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

What would you suggest? Delist all affected FAs, amend the rules, or just continue handling it as we always have? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 21:49, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

• May I suggest to end this discussion here and now, as it is increasingly becoming disrespectful. Arguing that articles that have to be based on primary sources do not meet the current rules is unhelpful and without point, since this cannot be changed. --Jens Lallensack (talk) 22:23, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Obviously, I'm not suggesting delisting the articles, but I am suggesting that if authors are conforming to some styles of explanation, it cannot be us, the readers, who have to scurry around looking for their examples, or be clicking out—early and often—to linked articles. It is the job of the authors to present expansive background and context sections which are cited to books and tertiary sources, where the style of communication becomes plain to us, so that in more obscure, complex or recondite sections we can see that same style continue, and if needs be, hold the authors' feet to the fire. The very articles you are citing, the 2020 Scientific Reports article has a longish Introduction section. How then does a Misplaced Pages article not have it? When Remes himself has edited a book on Sauropods, why is there no mention of the book in the FA? If it means that articles on more specialized topics will need to have larger background sections, and consequently reduced focused content, so be it; it is the price of the specialization in an encyclopedia. If you insist on a special dispensation, then be prepared for a mathematics FA which begins with, "The Deligne groupoid is a functor from nilpotent differential graded Lie algebras concentrated in positive degrees to groupoids; in the special case of Lie algebras over a field of characteristic zero, it gives the associated simply connected Lie group." in which pretty much every noun is a blue-linked trapdoor to a bottomless history. I know the FAC criteria, and I've heard all the Wikilawyer arguments. This is a serious concern. No disrespect is meant to anyone. This is my final post. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:08, 29 April 2020 (UTC)