| Revision as of 01:17, 20 December 2006 editShot info (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers5,052 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 01:33, 20 December 2006 edit undoIlena (talk | contribs)1,128 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
| Line 33: | Line 33: | ||
| So far it has been pointed out many, many, many times and then when it all comes to a conclusion, you ask....again. The original reason the original words by Ilena was put in there was to PUSHPOV and it was blatant OR. So after many, many, many, many, many, many, many words in the talk page later, it has been boiled down to proving a negative (ie/ we can prove what it is not) while engaging in OR by saying "It claims to be Inc but it isn't registered"... Then the whole question of N comes into play. Levine says it is N because "It claims to be Inc. but it isn't registered and if I was paying I would like to know this" (my paraphrase) so we have Levine saying it is N based on OR. So since it is OR why is it still notable. In particular when you remove the OR (the whole proving a negative bit about MA registration) it just becomes a dot trivia point about CA registration. Of course Ilena is PUSHPOV her POV to support her allegations of "illegal" activity which calls into the very question of why this now trivial point is notable. Now all this has been discussed over and over again and the reason it stands is because yourself, Levine and Ilena all have various reasons to include it. Ilena's is obvious POV, Levine is derived from OR and that only leaves yourself. And from the other three editors questioning this, it appears that you position is that it is notable. Why? ] 01:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | So far it has been pointed out many, many, many times and then when it all comes to a conclusion, you ask....again. The original reason the original words by Ilena was put in there was to PUSHPOV and it was blatant OR. So after many, many, many, many, many, many, many words in the talk page later, it has been boiled down to proving a negative (ie/ we can prove what it is not) while engaging in OR by saying "It claims to be Inc but it isn't registered"... Then the whole question of N comes into play. Levine says it is N because "It claims to be Inc. but it isn't registered and if I was paying I would like to know this" (my paraphrase) so we have Levine saying it is N based on OR. So since it is OR why is it still notable. In particular when you remove the OR (the whole proving a negative bit about MA registration) it just becomes a dot trivia point about CA registration. Of course Ilena is PUSHPOV her POV to support her allegations of "illegal" activity which calls into the very question of why this now trivial point is notable. Now all this has been discussed over and over again and the reason it stands is because yourself, Levine and Ilena all have various reasons to include it. Ilena's is obvious POV, Levine is derived from OR and that only leaves yourself. And from the other three editors questioning this, it appears that you position is that it is notable. Why? ] 01:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | ||
| :I may have screwed up the 2nd archive, can somebody have a look? ] 01:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | :I may have screwed up the 2nd archive, can somebody have a look? ] 01:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | ||
| ::::Shot info, my dear. With all due respect, it appears you are uneducated in State requirements for non-profits and suspended non-profits. If you understood this, you would fully understand what is so notable about NCAHF who claims to be a 'watchdog' and goes campaigns for: 'Accountability for those who violate consumer laws. " ] 01:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC) Please and thank you. ] 01:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
Revision as of 01:33, 20 December 2006
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the National Council Against Health Fraud article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
| Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |
 | The following Misplaced Pages contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. |
 Archives |
|
Archives |
Inc. it is
Shot
- (1) Here it is, NCAHF, Inc. right now, 19 Dec 2006 (UTC), second paragraph of the NCAHF membership/donations solicitation.
- (3) NCAHF is still representing itself as NCAHF, Inc. and soliciting funds from MA, right now, as such as in (1) above. Even if it shifted to a personal dba or whatever, that status change would be notable and perhaps complex, but "not a good, reassuring thing"
- Again, legality is not the only notability issue. Exact "current status" unknown/known is not required, simply most recently / last known dated status reports, or portion thereof (e.g. not currently officially listed/registered in MA), is fine, there is always a lag (Wiki Yearbook anybody?). You don't have to know everything to state the notable facts that you do have, and they can speak for themselves. Any others?--I'clast 07:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Humour me, but since you are being very pedantic, why doesn't the "NCAHF Inc" ask it's donators and members to write checks out to "NCAHF" with no Inc? And why is it that in all the website, this is the only location that the "Inc" is still in. You are drawing a long bow here. Remember WP:OR. I must admit, I do like how you and Ilena (et.al) are wanting, nay, needing to find some bizarre little fault in an organisation that is plainly not incorporated, and not playing your little game of "find the conspiracy". HOWEVER, in saying all that, I don't object to it appearing but I find it very, very, very odd that it is regarded as notable, particularly in the light that some users (Ilena etc) have written that they regard this as illegal and hence notable. So if it isn't illegal, does that make it not notable? Anyway, time to move on. Shot info 12:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Inc: NCAHF doesn't seem to use Inc in its pre2003 newsletters either, assuming no alterations. Googling 1999-2006 "Inc" is about 100x less common than w/o Inc. and a temporary drop in half for Inc in 2004 & 2005 (uh-oh, BK whopper & fries?). More Inc: bottom para,CredentialWatch 2006, Google("national council against health fraud inc")=766. The change of this organization from Inc to non-Inc. would indicate some change of interest to prospective contacts. There is nothing plain here, it's dealing with shadows, all we can do is report the WP:V facts we can find. NCAHF & associates seem to maintain the mystery(s). Illegal would be only one of several reasons for notable. If NCAHF has truly changed from Inc to non-Inc, the article's history should reflect that, but that is OR right now. Basically: NCAHF literature sometimes says it's Inc (which *any* use may be more important to the states than the non-uses); IRS forms (unsigned by NCAHF officer) say Inc, CA says it's Inc, suspended; but it almost always used/promoted the inc'less acronym (like my utility company).--I'clast 14:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Summarizing: Lots and lots of original research trying to demonstrate notability. Ilena continues to push her pov. We have no concensus.
I think this research is interesting and worth ensuring that it's available for editors to read. However it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, nor should it be the sole supporting reason for publishing something about it in the encyclopedia itself. --Ronz 18:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Ronz, we have WP:OR to push a POV provided by Ilena, and the article ignores WP:N again to advance Ilena's POV. Of course under protest it has been watered down such that it is not so obvious that it is PUSHPOV, instead there is a piece of trivia (unmarked) to allow the decision to be "left up to the reader" which is a admission of the failure to follow WP:N. I vote that we remove the section altogether given that a consensus cannot be reached per the normal wiki guidelines. Shot info 22:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the credit ... but the suspension of NCAHF and the proof that it is NOT a legal Massachusetts Corporation is not my POV ... they are facts, albeit ones that you and others would prefer to hide. Ilena 22:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Ilena, your failure to understand wiki and it's purposes is documented on your talk page. The discussion isn't the "fact" is their notability. There is no argument about "hiding" or whatever this is YOUR POV creeping into the picture and frankly your failure to engage in fruitful wikiediting isn't helping to convince me that this exercise is nothing more than PUSHPOV. Now, lets vote. Shot info 23:27, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your opinion. I couldn't disagree more. Please and thank you. Ilena 23:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Guys, would you care to briefly articulate exactly what phrase(s) you consider OR and/or POV and why, please.--I'clast 00:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed, that would be ever so useful. Thank you.
Ilena 00:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
So far it has been pointed out many, many, many times and then when it all comes to a conclusion, you ask....again. The original reason the original words by Ilena was put in there was to PUSHPOV and it was blatant OR. So after many, many, many, many, many, many, many words in the talk page later, it has been boiled down to proving a negative (ie/ we can prove what it is not) while engaging in OR by saying "It claims to be Inc but it isn't registered"... Then the whole question of N comes into play. Levine says it is N because "It claims to be Inc. but it isn't registered and if I was paying I would like to know this" (my paraphrase) so we have Levine saying it is N based on OR. So since it is OR why is it still notable. In particular when you remove the OR (the whole proving a negative bit about MA registration) it just becomes a dot trivia point about CA registration. Of course Ilena is PUSHPOV her POV to support her allegations of "illegal" activity which calls into the very question of why this now trivial point is notable. Now all this has been discussed over and over again and the reason it stands is because yourself, Levine and Ilena all have various reasons to include it. Ilena's is obvious POV, Levine is derived from OR and that only leaves yourself. And from the other three editors questioning this, it appears that you position is that it is notable. Why? Shot info 01:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- I may have screwed up the 2nd archive, can somebody have a look? Shot info 01:17, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
- Shot info, my dear. With all due respect, it appears you are uneducated in State requirements for non-profits and suspended non-profits. If you understood this, you would fully understand what is so notable about NCAHF who claims to be a 'watchdog' and goes campaigns for: 'Accountability for those who violate consumer laws. " Ilena 01:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC) Please and thank you. Ilena 01:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)