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Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 (Rename poll)

Request for Comment: Article name

This dispute is mainly regarding the use of the term genocide in the article's title, versus proposed variations with terms such as massacres, deportations, and ethnic cleansing. There was a recent mediation, a dispute resolution, and a straw poll, all coupled by a huge debate. The article is presently protected due to edit-warring regarding the {{POV-title}} tag. 01:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute:

Statement by NikoSilver

• The poll ended with consensus in one of the numerous options, namely Pontic Greek genocide. The other options were either opposed, or marked with no consensus.
• The initial debate was that the "acts" defined in genocide were not sourced. At present the article has practically every sentence cited by independent, verifiable, reliable sources.
• The debate later evolved as to if it is original research to assume that the facts to their extent provide adequate reason to name the article as such. A response was provided here. Academic sources explicitly or inexplicitly stating it was a genocide were also provided. Namely:

Note: Only third party sources are included here. For all sources, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Academic views on the issue. For eyewitness quotes, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Eyewitness accounts and quotes. For recognition, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Recognition.

• Turkey, still struggling to achieve its ninety-five-year-old dream of becoming the beacon of democracy in the Near East, does everything possible to deny its genocide of the Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontian Greeks.
• democide against the Greeks...genocide...347,000 dead
• systematic extermination...annihilation...in a persistent campaign of massacre
  Note: Term "genocide" had not been coined yet.
• compared experience to the Holocaust
• series of massacres, pertinent to the Armenian Genocide
• ethnic cleansing

1. Cohn Jatz, Colin Tatz (2003). With Intent to Destroy: Reflections on Genocide. Essex: Verso. ISBN 1859845509.
2. "Statistics of Democide". Chapter 5, Statistics Of Turkey's Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accessmonthday= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)
3. Horton, George (1926). The Blight of Asia. Indianapolis: The Bobbs-Merrill Company.
4. Steven L. Jacobs, Samuel Totten (2002). Pioneers of Genocide Studies (Clt). New Brunswick, New Jersey. p. 213. ISBN 0765801515. {{cite book}}: Text "publisher: Transaction Publishers" ignored (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
5. Creating a Modern "Zone of Genocide": The Impact of Nation- and State-Formation on Eastern Anatolia, 1878–1923, by Mark Levene, University of Warwick, © 1998 by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
6. Norman M. Naimark, Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe, Cambridge and London: Harvard University Press, 2001.

• For a comparative analysis of the academic sources, kindly refer to this section.
• Various NGOs recognize the events as a genocide.
• Apart from the (obvious) recognition by Greece and Cyprus, the events have been recognized by the states of South Carolina, New Jersey, Florida, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Illinois. New York State issued a proclamation designating May 19, 2002 as Pontian Greek Genocide Remembrance Day.
• Apart from Turkey, no other country has explicitly expressed they dispute the genocide thesis.
• Google searches:
  • Pontian genocide -wikipedia: 17,700 hits
  • Pontian massacres -wikipedia: 11,600 hits
  • Pontian ethnic cleansing -wikipedia: 1,190 hits
  • Pontian deportations -wikipedia: 720 hits
    • Note: These google results are included only to illustrate the relative preminence of the used terms (i.e. which is more popular). There are, of course, other searches that produce millions of results, such as:
  • Greek genocide -wikipedia: 1,120,000 hits
  • Hellenic genocide -wikipedia: 135,000 hits
• For a previous analytical reasoning regarding the tag removal, kindly refer to Archive 2#Why the tags should not stay.

Please read the article and decide for yourselves. For the reasons stated above, this summary supports that the title should include the term genocide.

NikoSilver 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Statement by A.Garnet

My position has been since the beginning that this article does not reflect academic opinion. It is recognised by Greece, written by Greek editors and supported by Greek editors. None of the sources are credible, none of the scholars notable, not one monograph can be found to its name, not one journal article, not one encylopedic article - in short it is the culmination of a few scraps of sentences in which a non-notable author has used the term Pontian greek "genocide" and original research whereby a number of quotes are being used to prove the genocide thesis.

You only have to look at the "Background" section, the section supposedly dealing with this genocide, to realise how poor the academic material in support of this article is. It is so poor that they rely on sources from a different location (Asia minor as opposed to Pontus) and from different people (Aegean Greeks and Turkish Jews as opposed to Pontian Greeks). So nowhere in this article do we have one ounce of explanation as to how these Pontian Greeks were supposodly exposed to genocide by Turks, simply becauase our Greek editors cannot find any research material on this beyond a few sentences which use the term Pontian Greek genocide.

Lets look at some of the arguments used to justify the title. Firstly, there was no consensus on the title whatsoever. Do not try and justify the collective votes of a number of Greek editors to mean a consensus, it is anything but. Consensus is achieved in reaching an agreement with disputing parties, not reaching an agreement with people who already agree! The fact is not only do all of the Turkish editors disagree, but a number of admins and third party editors have also raised questions and opposed the current title.

Another arugment used: "Apart from Turkey, no other country has explicitly expressed they dispute the genocide thesis." This is really quite a childish argument. It assumes non-recognition outside of Greece and Cyprus (i really do want to see a proper source that Cyprus recognises it) to somehow mean silent worldwide recognition. Well surely if recongition was so forthcoming you would be able to present me with one monograph from one notable historian. They ask for sources opposing a genocide of Pontians before they provide any credible or substantial sources which support it! This whole attitude is sheer nonsense and one employed to defend and indefensible position.

Also, as for the supposed recognition of American states, as another Greek editor proved, these resolutions are of little academic or political weight. Anybody can file a resolution, in fact one of "genocide" resolutions is mentioned next to happy birthday wishes for an old granny! They are, as Mackracis put, an embarassment to this article. Furthermore, on the topic of NGO's, the most notable of all NGO's dealing with genocide, the Association of Genocide Scholars, does not recognise this event as genocide, nor do any of the scholars associated with.

Let us also put those Google searches into perspective:

• Holocaust -wikipedia 29,700,000
• Rwandan genocide -wikipedia 1,340,000
• Bosnian genocide -wikipedia 1,300,000
• Armenian genocide -wikipedia 1,190,000
• Pontian genocide -wikipedia 17,700!

Now have a look at those 17,000 results, all it shows is that there a lot of Greeks on the internet like the editors here who are using the term Pontian greek "genocide". None of these superficial arguments count for anything Nikos, nothin detracts from the minority nature of this thesis and the complete lack of notable scholarly research, no matter how many straw polls you initiate or how many Greek editor revert the article.

Put simply, this article is a minority view. If the editors insist on defending it, then they will have to accept that the pov-title tag is here to stay until it is renamed and rewritten. Just to add i wont be here from Friday onwards, but i think i've made my argument pretty clear here.

Some sources:

• Mazower (these deportations were on a relatively small scale and do not appear to have been designed to end in their victims' deaths.)
• Midlarsky (Under these conditions, genocide of the Ottoman Greeks was simply not a viable option) Book review:
• Valentino ("the Turks did not seek to exterminate the Greeks, as the previous regime had done to the Armenians")
• Levene "Unlike the Armenian case, in each of these other instances the scope, scale and intensity of the killings was limited, though this does not rule out comparison." — "... I have concentrated here on the , though my approach would be pertinent to the Pontic Greek and Assyrian cases." — "Historians ... tend to avoid the term genocide to describe them." --A.Garnet 02:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Users who support or oppose the inclusion of the word "genocide" in the title, should sign below with a brief comment in the respective section. Comments longer than one line belong to the #Comments section below. Only registered users with more than 50 edits prior to Dec 10, 2006 00:00 UTC are eligible to vote. Comments are welcome by anyone in the #Comments section. Template:MultiCol

Support

1. NikoSilver 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
2. Mitsos 12:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
3. The attempt to trivialise or downplay the Pontians' suffering can only be described as sickening. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
4. Dirak 15:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC) (until I see similar changes at Assyrian Genocide and elsewhere where there is less recognition than here (TRNC springs to mind), I will not support anything else)
5. Politis It is part of a country's official calendar: official commemorations - even if contravertial - have a (carefully worded) place in an encyclopedia.
6. --Kalogeropoulos 15:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
7. The mere idea of even debating this dark chapter in the history of civilized mankind is sickening.--Eupator 16:24, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
8. Rizos01 18:23, 21 December 2006 (UTC) There are more than enough Eyewitness Accounts and Quotes by third parties.
9. It is a pitty that every fact that sheds somebody in a dark light has to be debated and voted. This is an encyclopaedia, not a beauty contest. --Diomidis Spinellis 20:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
10. Hectorian 23:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
11. --Asteraki 02:35, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per A. Garnet. I will also include a statement later on.. Baristarim 12:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
2. With all due respect to both sides of the dispute, I don’t think that it is a prevailing scholarly view to regard these events as genocide. Grandmaster 12:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:EndMultiCol

Comments

Pending another post of a longer view I would like to propose that this article to be renamed to Pontic Greek exodus that will cover the fate of Pontic Greeks since the article has included, over the editwars, many references to the Pontic Greeks who went to Kazakhstan etc. Genocide thesis should be talked about in the article. The genocide thesis is recognized by only Cyprus and Greece, and this should raise a few red flags. The case here is similar to Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide, with the latter redirecting to the former that includes a section on the genocide controversy. Also remember that this article was deleted two months ago from German Wiki for being a hate page. I am not proposing deletion, since I respect content as a general rule. Therefore I propose that this article be renamed, and the genocide thesis mentioned in a seperate section with a mention of Cyprus and Greece recognizing a "Pontic Greek Genocide". Baristarim 12:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And its recognition by six US states doesn't mean much either. Mississipi had a law until the 70s that said that it was OK to kill a Mormon. So, I don't understand why they are even mentioned. Baristarim 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"Also remember that this article was deleted from German Wiki for being a hate page" These Germans and their hate laws... "Mississipi had a law until the 70s that said that it was OK to kill a Mormon." So what??? Mitsos 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What is the point of another straw poll? I mean who are you trying to kid, we are here to build consensus, not demonstrate the voting power of Greek editors (demonstrated nicely by the afd on Kurdish genocide). --A.Garnet 13:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Look Garnet, by persistently adding {{POV-title}}, you have repeatedly violated consensus as it was already demonstrated three times already:

• In Mediation
• In dispute resolution, and
• In last straw poll

I refuse to accept your tag in this legitimate article that has been scrutinized by dozens of editors for the tinyest detail. You have a point though: Indeed, just "another straw poll" is probably not enough to combat your persistence...NikoSilver 14:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand you Nikos, why do you lie and distort like this? You know damn well there was not an ounce of consensus for this title outside of the Greek editors who backed it. I do not recall one Turkish editor supporting this title, in fact i do not recall one third party editor bar Awiseman who explicity supported it. Where is this consensus you keep going on about? The only consensus i saw was your idea to place the pov-title tag until we agreed on the current name or a rename, none of which has happened. --A.Garnet 14:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

See: here, here, here and here (which Baris added) for replies. Also, I don't get it: Do you suggest that any view expressed in WP must have been consented by the Turkish side? I'm sorry, I don't follow... NikoSilver 14:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

So you accept the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide, then? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I accept its academic notablity and scholarly support gives it a legitimate place on Misplaced Pages. Unlike this. --A.Garnet 14:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Another false distinction. Genocide was committed against the Christian population of the region as a whole; the Armenians bore the brunt. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Maybe then you could tell me why an eminent historian such as Mazower or Midlarsky deny any genocide of Greeks but support the Armenians? Are they Pontian genocide deniers? --A.Garnet 14:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Kekrops, avoid the straw man. Asking such questions are irrelevant. Mitsos, who has voted for support is a white supremacist, as admitted in his user page. Why don't you ask him if he thinks that blacks are inferior to whites for example? People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So don't even try to attack others positions by making them look like some genocide-denying Nazi. You should be asking to Mitsos what he thinks of Jews, since you seems to adore asking other peoples' opinions on things that don't concern this article. Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What question? There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the events constituted genocide. I think you're the one who needs to avoid the strawman; you've just associated the opposing side of the debate with white supremacism. Speaking of user pages, your description of Chinese territory as "still Turkish" reads like an homage to pan-Turkism/Turanism, an equally dangerous ideology as far as I'm concerned. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Your question to A. Garnet. Eastern China is not the territory of Turkey my friend. However, it is also regularly called East Turkistan, and that's what I meant. Cut down on the paranoia. If you want to know why I can easily talk about East Turkistan, take a closer look at some of the articles listed in my user page. If you are going to be asking questions like that to A. Garnet, why don't you ask Mitsos what he thinks of the Jews for example? Again do not confuse your POV with that of the whole world. And Kekrops, exactly what I have been trying to explain all along: This article is the product of the POV of its creators. Baristarim 15:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

And yes, if you are not going to ask any questions about their ideologies to who vote for support, do not do it for others. If you are going to ask irrelevant questions, of course I will wonder why a white-nationalist is advocating support, and raise it here since the rule of not questioning the ideologies of editors was broken by your questions. I am an atheist + far-left, and you should know that people like that do not generally become pan-Turkists. Baristarim 15:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not contradicting you but I am almost certain that they do not "deny" a genocide took place. Do you have a quote? Politis 14:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Bottom of my statement my friend. --A.Garnet 14:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that; do you have the Mazower reference (book, article)? Politis 14:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Have an article: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n03/mazo01_.html --A.Garnet 14:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Did someone suggest 'Exodus'??? Is this a Bob Marley song :-?. But seriously, we can just about apply the term 'exodus' to the population exchanges between Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, etc. But in Pontus there was used to be an ancient and thriving Greek community; after 1915 and the 1920s it came to an end with many tens of thousands killed. Buildings, churches, archives, art works were burnt. For Greeks, this was nothing less than a genocide (not a tragic population exchange or the direct outcome of war). The perpetrators were mostly Ottoman troops and Kurdish irregulars. So at the very least we have a series of Massacres and pogroms. Politis 14:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Really? See the Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide.. Hmm.. That's interesting, they redirect to the same article under the first article. I can find sources that say that there was a genocide of Native Americans by the truckload. However, the article is still not named "genocide", since there is no academic and scholarly concensus. The case at hand is even worse: Not only that there aren't enough sources (a few books, couple of interpretations of second-hand eye witness accounts, and recognition by Greece and Cyprus (gees, GR and CYR, how can that happen? :))), but there is not at all an academic concensus. Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, here is a secret how block editing can be generated: every User name has a 'User contributions' link; by clicking onto it, you can follow what a User with similar interests is editing; if you see something relevant, you add your own comment... Politis 14:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I know. I generately can find things of interest by myself however.. That might be true for someone who is new to Misplaced Pages, but it is nothing but desperation for an experienced editor.Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide. They redirect to the same article under the first article, since there is no academic concensus. Plus, this article was deleted in the German Wiki for being a hate page. Nikos, concensus in a small straw poll dominated, unfortunately by Greek editors is not sufficient. It might interest you to know that many non-Greek and non-Turk editors, admins included, also oppose the title, however they are afraid to come in because of the block-lobby of some people (guess who? any AfDs anyone?) Nobody is saying this content to be deleted, however you also have to understand that you cannot impose a minority POV to the rest of Misplaced Pages. Baristarim 14:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

For Midlarsky, I prefer this review (thanks Garnet). Nice quotes by his reviewer (Robert M. Spector-Worcester State College):

"deals with mass murders in the twentieth century that could have but did not evolve into the author's definition of genocide".

"In part three, having narrowed the meaning of genocide and identified the perpetrator's conditions for genocide, Midlarsky applies his analysis to Turkey..."

"It is regrettable that Midlarsky does not deal more with prevention of genocide, which is the ultimate purpose of studying the subject."

:-) NikoSilver 15:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Again why lie and distort? The full quote: "Part five of the book deals with mass murders in the twentieth century that could have but did not evolve into the author's definition of genocide: Jews in Bulgaria and Finland during World War II, Greeks in Turkey, and the Irish in the British Empire." I dont see what is here that you would prefer, how explicit do you want it. --A.Garnet 15:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Read the whole of it Garnet. I bolded parts above. Avoid WP:ATTACKs. Take this as a warning. I've had enough of this! NikoSilver 15:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You should probably report him, Niko. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Start arguing your case properly instead of your little gimmicky google counts, straw polls and what not. I dont have time to go round in circles like this. In fact juding by yours and others support for Kurdish genocide what i have said over the past 6 or 7 months has had absoloutely no effect on any of you. So now i'll hopefully wait for third party editors and see what happens. Good day. --A.Garnet 15:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok that does it. NikoSilver 15:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes Niko, that does it. It is clear as the sky what happened at the AfD of the Kurdish Genocide. Some editors came back from their inactivity of months to vote "delete per X". Baristarim 15:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is clear Baris? Need I point out maybe how many Turks came out of nowhere in that AfD also? Even ...after it closed? In any case, your reaction and constant repetition of all this is just smoke in the eyes to evade the issue here and produce random accusations. Nobody notified or was notified to this AfD to my knowledge. Do you know something we don't? Where's the cabal? NikoSilver 15:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

. This one for example. Kinda funny that Dirak said in his support vote "I am not going to change my opinion unless there are changes to the Assyrian Genocide article". Hmm kinda funny isn't it Nikos? Dirak created the article "Kurdish Genocide" four days ago, and it was deleted pretty much in a day. Coincidence? I don't think so.Baristarim 16:01, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I've seen the particular editor around a lot, especially in controversial issues. I also see he doesn't have the e-mail feature. Weird... NikoSilver 16:16, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristarim. OK, so what you might be saying is that only for the 'Greek people', these events are perceived as a genocide - indeed, that is why the Greek state has a special day comemorating it. But international opinion does not recognise a genocide. My problem is that although I can see the case for calling it 'massacre' rather than 'genocide', a State (Greece) has officially recognised it as such, and this official status - even though limited - gives it the official (though contravertial) right to be included in wikipedia.

For instance, if Turkey had decreed a special day for 'Turkish Cypriot Genocide', I would argue that, yes, we would have to include it in wikipedia. And not because there was a genocide, but because the concept would have formed an official element in Turkey's official calendar.

So, in this current article, we could indicate from the very beginning that this is a Greek perception and part of the official Greek calendar. Then, that there is no international response and we can give a non-contravertial background to the story. For any further details, we could have a link to 'Pontian or Pontic massacre'. Politis 15:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a common problem. The answers you seek are in Misplaced Pages:Content forking. The Greek perception is certainly notable enough to warrant significant mention in a "Pontian Greek massacre" article, and to warrant having redirects from titles such as these. We cannot, however, have articles that discuss only one side of the equation. The most common example is Creationism. The article does not say "OK, this is what they believe: 1) God made earth in 7 days etc...". One article should cover all opinions. yandman 15:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect yandman, check the sources, quotes, recognition, NGOs etc above (both sides). On the other hand I agree with your reasoning that minority POVs must not be reflected on titles. Check for example TRNC... NikoSilver 15:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

TRNC is not a mathematical or academic thesis. The comparison is baseless, it is an entity that exists! The case here is similar to Native American article I mentioned right under the Comments subsection. Also take a look at that Nikos. The genocide thesis is mentioned in a section in the article. Baristarim 16:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Genocide is a specific term reflecting spesific actions and is used for every demographic changing caused by brutal force in large scale -by any nation. --Kalogeropoulos 16:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

TRNC has less recognition; the existence of a state in northern Cyprus is nothing more than a (-n extremely small) POV. All that's a reality in Cyprus is the military occupation. How Turkish nationalists manage to equate that with a state is beyond me... //Dirak 16:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You see why i lose my rag Yandman? How many bloody times - TRNC is not an academic thesis - it is a defacto self-declared entity! Its like hitting my head agaisnt a brick wall, the same worthless arguments again and again and again! --A.Garnet 16:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Blah, blah, blah... that is nothing more than your POV and you know it. //Dirak 16:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we lay off the TRNC or move the exchange to the relevant talk page? The article concern Pontic Greeks, not Turkish Cypriots and their state. Politis 16:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"If you are going to ask irrelevant questions, of course I will wonder why a white-nationalist is advocating support" I cannot understand what is your problem. Did anyone accused you for being a leftist? Btw, you don't come from France as you say in your userpage, you come from Turkey. A. Garnet is right about TRNC. Mitsos 17:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Well Mitsos, there was not a template similar to the US one, happy? The problem is not at all your beliefs, it was another asking Alf about his opinions/ideology on something else. If such questioning is permitted, then there is no reason why it should work only one way..

Again, comments that are irrelevant. TRNC? It doesn't matter if you believe that if it were genocide. Misplaced Pages is not your personal blog. If you want, you can create your own website or forum and write anything you want. What I want to know is since when the overhelming academic concensus of this being a genocide was formed. Since Greece and Cyprus accepted this as such?! Is that it? Or since this page was deleted from German Wiki because it was considered a hate page?

Nobody is proposing the content to be deleted. There are no users here coming from months old sleeps and voting "delete. per above". There is no reason why this should be deleted, and I, again, propose a solution similar to the Native Americans page; an article that has been edited by thousands of editors over the years, and extensively at that since Misplaced Pages is anglophone. Meaning that it has developed a good encyclopedic and formal approach that should be adopted in such cases. Baristarim 18:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

A majority of the article also breaks WP:OR. Most of the sources are simple eye-witness accounts of some American ambassador 90 years ago. There are practically no serious sources or books cited about the "genocide" issue. This article is trying to use the witness accounts, recognition from Greece and Cyprus (?!) to persuade the reader that this was genocide. That is a clear violation of WP:OR. One of the associations cited, "Intl Association of Genocide blah blah" is co-chaired by an ethnic Greek etc. Turkish POV? This has Greek POV written all over it.. Baristarim 18:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

"Well Mitsos, there was not a template similar to the US one, happy?" Fair enough. Mitsos 18:46, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Harry Psomiades, Constantine Fotiades? And some people are complaining about the Turkish POV.. Half the sources that advocate "genocide" are Greeks, and the rest are non-notable historians. There has to be a clear academic concensus on such an issue. The defense "the research has just gotten started" doesn't hold either. European journalists, authors, historians write tens of books a year about even the smallest Kurdish related issue, you are saying that a probable genocide of so many people slipped their mind? Two of the historians cited also compare this with the aboriginal experience, however I can find no such article and, as I said, the Native American genocide redirects to something else, which means that they are out of the academic concensus generally. Baristarim 18:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

The article about aborigines says "Impact of European settlement" as section title. Well, if those two historians are considering the aboriginal experience to genocide, then I don't understand why they should not be considered on the fringes of academia.Baristarim 18:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

As for the recognitions. WHAT recognitions? Is this a joke? Greece and Cyprus? And six US states who also pass grandma birthday wishes at the same time? As for someone said about Turkey recognizing a TR Cyp genocide and its implication that that would warrant an article: false. Just because some country passed a resolution accusing its neighbor with whom it had a "not-so-friendly" relations for centuries, that doesn't mean we can create an article. It is notable, but only merits a statement of the fact: "X passed a resolution considering that the Y did a genocide on the nationals of X". That's it. It cannot have an article of its own. This is exactly the same reason the word "terrorist" is a word to avoid, since people blame each other for being as such on the slightest of excuses.Baristarim 18:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Having fun up there? :) Keep on going.. Just a quick question: will there be anymore users coming back from inactivity to vote here? Or will there be other articles created per WP:POINT as User:Dirak is insisting on doing even after the closure of the AfD? Has anyone seriously looked at the Native American article that I mentioned? All the keepers seemed to say the same thing: "I believe and know that there was a genocide". Sorry folks, that don't cut it.Baristarim 20:53, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Having fun down here? Do you seriously think that one can follow your rhetoric? Do you really think that flooding will get you anywhere? NikoSilver 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Nikos, have you even read my posts above? What rhetoric? Even you had said (way back when), that you were going to take a look at the article about the Native Americans. So what happened? My recent posts were definitely relevant, and I cannot see why some people don't understand that this is not a vote of some sorts. Dry votes are not going to cut it, if those who have voted are so interested, why don't they leave any comments here? Nobody seems to be engaging in a serious discussion about the fact that the Native American genocide is not titled as such, as well as the fact that this article has been deleted from German Wiki. I am sorry, but I stand behind what I said, most of the keepers say basically the same thing: "I believe and know that there was a genocide". Articles cannot be based on the beliefs of its creators. What kind of a discussion is this? There are no "aboriginal genocide" or "native american genocide" articles. The only that can be cited is the Assyrian Genocide. And another attempt was made to create another similar article to simply be able to point out to the existence of another similar article, but it didn't work. Even here, most keepers are not even contributing to the debate at all, just "keep - it is despicable how those barbaric Turks are such savages blah blah". All I am saying is that there should be an actual debate.Baristarim 22:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Baris, the quotes you included are fictional. My personal view (as can be seen here) is that people become better when they recognize their mistakes. I think you should be actually endorsing your fellow Turkish users to vote support. That way, you would indeed prove that "those Turks aren't such savages". There are many academic sources calling it a genocide, sources with the numbers of the dead, recognition by subnational entities, NGOs, eyewitness quotes etc etc. Really, how do you fail to see these? I remember your argument used to be that genocide is a legal term, and must be recognized by the UN (or something). Is this all that matters to you? Don't you feel the least of sorrow that these events happened in your parts? Don't you see that even R. J. Rummel that you mock, has tables full of citations by accredited third party historians for series of massacres? (check here and here -maximize these to see among others McCarthy, 83, 132-3, 139; Sachar 69, 309; Housepian 66, 30, 190, 201-4; Barton 30, 41, 63; Morgenthau 19, 324-5; Toynbee 22, 142-3, 151, 273-4; Sivard 85,10; Boyajian 72, 153-4, 156; Lang 81, 37; Gross 72, 47n6; Tashjian 82, 131...) If you really wish to sanitize your society, the first thing to do is help it accept its mistakes. Like your author, Orhan Pamuk who was prosecuted for commenting on the Armenian Genocide and the Kurdish killings, and now is a nobelist. Hiding behind our fingers and trying to show night is day, won't help. NikoSilver 23:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) ::Whow whow... What is going on dude? I shouldn't even respond to this, but just cut down on things like "your parts" or "wish to sanitize your society". And drop Pamuk man, he won the Nobel for his books. Unlike some people here, I actually read his books, and they were mostly about 15th century ottomans or modern secularists-religious groups. Straw man at work again. "My" author? WTF is going on? This mentality is real not for the 21th century. There is no "my" author, nor "my" parts or something like that.. Stick to the issue at hand: Have you taken a look at Native American Genocide article or have you considered why this article was deleted in German Wiki? If you want this RfC to have any sort of credibility, the debate should cover all grounds. Nikos, read WP:OR one more time: We cannot sew together information to form a thesis. We cannot simply say, "there were eye witness accounts, therefore it must have been genocide". What recongnitions? Greece and Cyprus? That ain't worth shit I am afraid, in the same way a similar Turkish resolution about TR CYP gen would be as well. What NGOs? The one that is co-chaired by a Greek? As I said: what Turkish POV? This has Greek POV written all over it. Please cut down on "my"s and "your"s, however.. Nobody is asking for the deletion of this article. There have also been comments by non-Turk users about the title problem. Are they also my "peeps"? Baristarim 00:10, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Do not emotionalize the issue by saying "don't you feel sorry for what happened in your parts?" What is the point of this rhetorical question? I have told you so many times before that I wish that nobody had died during the World War. Check the archives. Why are you asking this except to emotionalize the issue? So drop it please.Baristarim 00:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I haven't voted yet although I do have a strong opinion on this matter. I have to say that this is a systemic flaw in Misplaced Pages. Debate is practically useful only in establishing phrasing which does not offend anyone and accurately represents the facts and of course I'm all for this. But can we really debate on the facts themselves? Also Baris, since you have mentioned it so many times, I wonder what the Native American article title would be if there were more Native American editors in Misplaced Pages. It's like this article being written exclusively by Turkish people :-) --   Avg    23:55, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Pfff. Thousands of editors have passed over the Native Americans article, and it is the result of extensive debates and concensus. But your implication that Americans are all in together to hush-hush this issue is also misplaced. There are many Natives in America, and many Americans also believe that what happened was a genocide; however that is not the academic concensus. And the German wiki? There were a lot more German editors voting for deletion than Turkish ones. So where is the conspiracy. Look Avg, nobody is asking for the deletion of the content. As yandman pointed out above, this article looks like a fork at the moment: a better title must be found, many versions presented, and the genocide thesis talked about in the article.Baristarim 00:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Baris, the academic consensus here is that it was a genocide -period. Six third-party academics mentioning it directly or indirectly, dozens more mentioning isolated incidents (as you call them), six US states, 3 NGOs, and dozens of eyewitness accounts are enough for me. This discussion aims to see if they are enough for the rest of the editors. Now, can we please agree that we disagree in a noble way? Let's see what the rest have to say, and leave it at that. Let's not violate the (ingenious, actually) {{Round In Circles}} template anymore. Let the others speak and not be intimidated by a huge debate. Please! NikoSilver 00:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I know, Round In Circles is a good one :)) I agree that we should let the other readers decide, however I would appreciate it if some people not from the Eastern Mediterranean would participate in this. In fact, sadly, Greek-Turkish issues do not bleep on the radar of the general global community, so at the end we will be stuck with this issue, again! I agree to disagree, but I wonder what it would take to oblige impartial editors to look at this. In the last RfC, there was only one person that actually came here via the RfC link. And he had also said that the title should be modified btw, cough cough. I can't be bothered to look for in the archives, but it is there. So let's hope that someone actually drops by. However, Nikos, a voting list filled either by Turks or Greeks can seriously be considered as "concensus" per simple common sense.Baristarim 01:01, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Baristam and Garnet: It is more than obvious that both of you dispute that the events between 1916 and 1923 (which cost the lives of thousands of Pontian Greeks) constituted a genocide. However, if I am correct, both of you, or one of you, admit that massacres did take place (against the Greeks). Could you please give me an idea of what you know about these massacres. What is your understanding/knowledge of the cause/causes, the nature, the extent, the location, etc.. Did they involve only idividuals, or entire villages/communities? Did they involve only male adults? or did they involve women, children, and seniors? If you cannot, or do not want to bother, could you please refer me to your sources that cite specific events of massacres against the Greeks. I would appreciate it. Rizos01 02:58, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

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