Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:06, 1 June 2020

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jamal Khashoggi article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Material from Jamal Khashoggi was split to Assassination of Jamal Khashoggi on 07:06, 20 October 2018 from this version. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter page exists. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to articles about living or recently deceased people, and edits relating to the subject (living or recently deceased) of such biographical articles, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

A news item involving Jamal Khashoggi was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on the following dates: 14 October 2018 21 October 2018

[REDACTED]

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Arts and Entertainment This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group (assessed as Low-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. International relations This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.International relationsWikipedia:WikiProject International relationsTemplate:WikiProject International relationsInternational relations ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Journalism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Politics: American Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by American politics task force (assessed as Low-importance). Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Saudi Arabia High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Saudi Arabia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Saudi Arabia on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Saudi ArabiaWikipedia:WikiProject Saudi ArabiaTemplate:WikiProject Saudi ArabiaSaudi Arabia High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Turkey Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Turkey, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Turkey and related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TurkeyWikipedia:WikiProject TurkeyTemplate:WikiProject TurkeyTurkey Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. United States Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Template:Vital article

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on October 13, 2019.

Archives

Index Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 4 sections are present.

Bone saw

After Jamai died in a fist fight, did the Saudis borrow a bone saw from the Turks or had they brought their own saw? 2601:181:8301:4510:1D6B:747B:8A22:351B (talk) 23:48, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Richard-of-Earth what in God's name is a forum here?!!!--SharabSalam (talk) 06:39, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

This talk page is not for questions about the subject of the article. We do not do original research here. See Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not#FORUM. If the IP has something that will contribute to the article the IP can state it flat out and provide a WP:RS to support it. If the IP wants to start a discussion about where the saw came from he can go to a discussion website like Reddit. If he just wants a short answer to a question he should post in the Misplaced Pages:Reference desk. It does not go here. Most editors find it is best to just delete such questions and leave a note on the user talk page, which I did. I actually did not notice the it had been removed already and that you put it back. If you really insist, we can just leave it, but it looks to me that it will not result in a discussion that will improve the article. As to the actual question, see Assassination of Jamal Khashoggi#Assassination, 4th paragraph. According to Middle East Eye, an anonymous Turkish source says they brought a bone saw with them. But that does not go in this article. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 07:59, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

I assumed that the IP intention was to add to the article information about where the bone saw came from.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 15:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Political Party

The info box had, "Political Party: Muslim Brotherhood." Reliable sources report that Muslim Brotherhood is an organization, not a political party. Also, the RS say that Khashoggi was a member of the brotherhood in the late 1970s while covering the Russia-Afghanistan war and then left the brotherhood sometime in the early 1990s . Since the Muslim Brotherhood was not a political party when Khashoggi was involved with it, and it's still not a political party, I removed that from the information box. I have pinged editors Huldra Fshafique Alhanuty who appear to have worked on this page in case they want to give feedback. BetsyRMadison (talk) 15:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Its not a political party and he wasnt part of it. You need to bring multiple reliable sources for this claim in order to add it to the article as this is someone who recently died and therefore is covered by BLP policies as his family are still going to be affected.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 15:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

To SharʿabSalam▼ - From your reply to me, it's clear you either did not read my comment, or you misread my comment, & as a result you misquoted me. Please re-read my comment & get back to me. BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:41, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

BetsyRMadison, I read your comment and I didnt even quote you let alone misquote you.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 16:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

To SharʿabSalam▼ - Apparently you did not read my original comment & yes, you did misquote me. In my original comment I write that I "removed" (opposite of adding) the part of the info box that had (past tense not me adding) "Political Party: Muslim Brotherhood." because, I wrote, "Muslim Brotherhood is an organization, not a political party." So, yes, you falsely quoted me when you falsely implied that I wanted to "add" (your word, not mine) MB being a political party. Please be more careful in the future. Thanks BetsyRMadison (talk) 16:55, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

BetsyRMadison, I didnt say you added it and when I said "you" I meant a generic you, not you.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

To SharʿabSalam▼ - In the future, it would probably be a good idea for you to be more clear and use the words "if anyone" as opposed to "if you." That will help you avoid giving people the false impression that you are falsely accusing someone else of attempting to add something when, in fact, the opposite is true. Words do matter. BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:13, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I honestly thought no one would misunderstand what I said. I clearly read your comment and I was supporting what you are saying and also saying that the sources are not reliable enough for to meet BLPSOURCES which still applies as his family are still affected by what we write here.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

"after they had allegedly used Israeli spyware to hack his friend's cell phone" in the lead

I removed the sentence "after they had allegedly used Israeli spyware to hack his friend's cell phone" from the lead, simply per WP:LEAD. Not importnant enough, also not covered in the article per se, also "allegedly". Feel free to place somewhere else in the article. Was reverted by SharʿabSalam, and bcs no specific comment to my reasons above was offered, I removed again, and am waiting for other opinions of other editors. WikiHannibal (talk) 16:51, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

WikiHannibal, I disagree, it is important enough to be in the lead. You need to establish consensus in the talk page. You are simply reverting and not allowing the long-standing version. Clearly you have shown little interest in working collaboratively with other editors.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:01, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

To SharʿabSalam▼ - Can you please explain how an "alleged" hacking of a cell phone contributed to his assassination? And how does "alleged" make it important enough to be in the lead of his bio page? And since it's not covered within the article, why should it be covered in the lead? BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:07, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

To SharʿabSalam▼ I have already read in your edit summary that you disagree (which is quite self-evident when you revert) but so far you have provided no reasons, and no comment on why my reasons do not apply. Also as someone who was blocked four times in the last 2 years, including for personal attacks, please be more careful with the wording of your opinions about other editors, such as " Clearly you have shown little interest in working collaboratively" above. Some might take even that as a personal attack. WikiHannibal (talk) 17:10, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

WikiHannibal, your reasoning is subjective. You said Not importnant enough. This is your opinion and I dont need to reason why I disagree because you havent said why it is "Not important enough". The ouns is on you to make your case, not me. Yes, it is important in the lead as it is one of the main factors that caused his death. If it wasnt the Israelis, the Saudis wouldnt have been able to know when that Jamal was going to be in the embassy. It will be mentioned in the lead (sooner or later) and the body. Instead of seeking consensus, you have chosen to editwar and to enforce your version of the lead over the long-standing version despite having not established consensus.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:18, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I am not here to discuss politics with you or what "the Saudis" would or would not know. I made some specific points: 1) not a summary per WP:LEAD, 2) not covered in the article per se, 3) vague "allegedly". All of that was mentioned by BetsyRMadison as well, +the relation to his death (your explanation of that relation seems based on your beliefs/opinions.) I will let other editors decide, discussing with you is a waste of time. WikiHannibal (talk) 17:30, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

WikiHannibal,

How is not being in the body justify removing it, instead of adding the content to the body? Clearly your argument is flawed.

I have said it is important and what I said is reported in the mainstream media such as The New York Times and even the ToI.

You have made a bold edit, it should be you who should seek consensus, not me.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:40, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree with SharʿabSalam▼ - if there is a subheading that covers the alleged cell phone being hacked in order to track him, then it should be in the lead. But, I don't think it should be in the lead if it's not covered within the article. Maybe SharabSalam can write a subheading up for that? BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:48, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Adding "He was a sympathizer and former member of the Muslim Brotherhood" to the lead

I added "He was a sympathizer and former member of the Muslim Brotherhood." to the lead but was reverted (without explanation, by SharʿabSalam. So, let's discuss. I think it is important enough to be in the lead, and it is, more or less, a summary of what is in the article. More sources can be found in the archives of the talk page (search Muslim Brotherhood) but I have not checked any sources. Perhaps a better wording can be found. There are several quotes in the article about him being in the brotherhood, in the Political views subsection. The lead should be balanced; perhpas the Muslim Brotherhood membership is too "shocking" - that is why I did not add it directly to the first sentence (that would be too much given his subsequent work). Some of Khashoggi' opinions are in the lead so it should be incorporated somehow. So, 1) what would be a proper short summary of his relationship with the Muslim Brotherhood, and 2) how (where) in the lead is hould be incorporated? WikiHannibal (talk) 17:17, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

WikiHannibal, I clearly explained in the talk page. No sources say that he was a "sympathizer of the Muslim brotherhood". Clearly you are violating BLP (still affects his family) by adding unsourced content to the article.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:26, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean, no sources? The article reads, for example: "Khashoggi stated that Saudi Arabia ... must ... build alliances with organisations rooted in political Islam such as the Muslim Brotherhood, and that it would be a "big mistake" if Saudi Arabia and the Muslim Brotherhood cannot be friendly.", quotes him as saying: "yes, I joined the Muslim Brotherhood organization when I was at university; and I was not alone" Other opinions have it: Khashoggi was supportive of the Muslim Brotherhood ... In one of his own blogs he argued for the Muslim Brotherhood. Sources at he respective places in the article. WikiHannibal (talk) 17:38, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

WikiHannibal, that no way means he "was a sympathizer of the Muslim brotherhood". You are clearly violating one of the most sacred principles on Misplaced Pages which is WP:BLP. You are making original research to an article that affects BLP.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:44, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

To WikiHannibal - RS do not say Jamal "is a sympathizer" to Muslim Brotherhood. SharʿabSalam▼ is correct, that should be removed from the article completely & especially removed from the lead. Also, the RS say that Khashoogi was a member of the brotherhood in the late 1970s when he was a student at Indiana University in America, up through his time covering the Soviet(Russia)-Afghanistan War, and then left the brotherhood sometime in the early 1990s . (I will note here for historical purposes, that during the Russia-Afghanistan War, the United Stated trained, funded, and helped the Afghanistan mujahideen whose members included the Muslim Brotherhood against the Soviets. ) Since any membership he had with the MB ended almost 30 years before he was assassinated, it does not belong in the lead so it should be removed because it is not important at all to his bio. BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I added he "was", based on the coverage of this topic article. I the article is not neutral or lacks important info, it would be best to change the article, perhaps using your sources. Also, this article is about the persoange, not the assassination, so it should cover his life in its (encyclopedic) entirety. More historical context is needed to explain his relations with the Muslim Brotherhood but to say that is "shloud be removed from the article completely" is a little too far-fetched, in my opinion. Cheers, WikiHannibal (talk) 17:48, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

To WikiHannibal - Reliable sources do not support your claims. For example, RS do not say Jamal "is a sympathizer" to Muslim Brotherhood so yes, it should be removed completely from the article. I know you're working hard, but you should stop adding things that RS do not support, otherwise, you risk starting an unnecessary edit war. SharʿabSalam▼ is correct, you are violating WP:BLP. BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:59, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I repeat: I just used info in the article. RS are not needed for the lead (per WP:LEAD. RS should be in the article. If some sources in the article are not reliable, please tag them. When sources say he was a member, and "argued for the Muslim Brotherhood", is "sympatizer" a correct/safe hyperonym or not? How would you summarize his relation with the Muslim brotherhood? The topic is covered in the article but, as I said, perhaps not with enough context. Also, as you can see, I did not add it to the article again, so not sure what you mean by "should stop adding things that RS do not support". Also, when you claim I violate WP:BLP, please be more specific what exactly I violated (there are several subsections); I find MOS:BLPLEAD more to the point: "make sure the lead correctly reflects the entirety of the article", and "Well-publicized recent events affecting a subject ... should be kept in historical perspective. ...new information should be carefully balanced against old, with due weight accorded to each." WikiHannibal (talk) 18:43, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages In the news articles
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class biography articles
• B-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Low-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Arts and entertainment work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• B-Class International relations articles
• Unknown-importance International relations articles
• WikiProject International relations articles
• B-Class Journalism articles
• High-importance Journalism articles
• WikiProject Journalism articles
• B-Class politics articles
• Low-importance politics articles
• B-Class American politics articles
• Low-importance American politics articles
• American politics task force articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• B-Class Saudi Arabia articles
• High-importance Saudi Arabia articles
• WikiProject Saudi Arabia articles
• B-Class Turkey articles
• Mid-importance Turkey articles
• All WikiProject Turkey pages
• B-Class United States articles
• Low-importance United States articles
• B-Class United States articles of Low-importance
• WikiProject United States articles
• Selected anniversaries (October 2019)