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Article start request template

Hi DGG, Gaelan, maybe also Sdkb

Drawing from this discussion at village pump (policy), I've created Template:Article start request. Is it suitable for public use? Could it possibly be included in the article creation wizard, or otherwise made more discoverable to others? The purpose is to position the new article requests in personal talk space, as

• often the article is started by a single author (particularly in cases of conflict of interest)
• often the helpee will be interested in discussion where questions can be asked and answers can be given
• helpers have the opportunity to give feedback on sources alone -- without needing to analyze article text which can be a wasted effort -- before giving feedback on an article
• authors will understand how to write better, improving their writing performance
• {{helpme}} seems to work well
• Category:Article start requests can be monitored for new submissions *(there are established notification and monitoring tools for this for the helpme requests) - can be monitored by volunteers who are experienced in "notability pass or not?" phase of the draft review process
• This may be a more user friendly system than WP:REQ, and in comparison with it, in this system a non-zero amount of feedback will be available.
• (This is also a bit similar to {{edit request}} which also seems to work effectively.)

Regards, --Gryllida (talk) 10:18, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I think there's some merit to this, especially if we can have it be a sort of prerequisite to the article wizard. I think it could help to limit the amount of terrible drafts we get at AfC. There's craptons of new users who write drafts that have no chance of ever being accepted and it's a waste of people's time to review, re-review, argue about sources/notability/etc., then the resulting recrimination... It would be nice to reduce that a bit. Waggie (talk) 02:05, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I will need a few days to look at it--there's too much else going on, and I am not working at very high efficiency.The easiest way to use it will be a a pre-screen for the article wizard, but I think it would be much better to incorporate it. In deciding where to put it, we need to think about catching all incoming requests, especially those from paid editors, who may avoid the usual routes. Further comment later this week. DGG ( talk ) 03:53, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Ta. (After 1-2 months of work from home my focus started to drop, I'm finding Pomodoro Technique a bit helpful.) Gryllida (talk) 04:17, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

News? Gryllida (talk) 05:13, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I think the first step is to put it into the article wizard, because we already have that, and it will be relatively easy o do the necessary rewriting, maybe without any programming at all. After that we can figure out how to deal with the new ones that do not go through the wizard. (I'm not sure if we have a tag for the ones that do go through--if not it should be possible to add one) .

the simplest way of checking compliance is manual. we can check either at aformal submission, or hen the draft is started. We seem to have about 100 formal submissions a day, so we might try on that first. ,

I'm going to try a rewrite tf the wizard template text part by part tomorrow and see where we get. Watch this space. I already look at some zero day submissionsevery day, soI'lllmake apoint of doing thisat the same time. Perhaps we need a subpage for the work on this? DGG ( talk ) 05:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I think wherever this process is mentioned, it perhaps should be clear that

• an article start request is significantly quicker than draft review (should say how quicker - I hope 1-2 days but this will be seen after this process begins)
• is staffed by volunteers who specialize in how to start articles
• be clear what happens after the start, i.e. "Article start request only involves search of references and their description. It does not involve writing any part of the article. Upon successful article start request, you will have completed references search and will be ready to start writing content that will highly likely be notable and thus qualify for inclusion, with you only needing to be mindful of copyright and neutrality" -- this is important I think so that the author will understand better the next step

Maybe if the 'article start request' template which I linked is possibly going to be used, discussions could be placed on its talk page, or subpages of it could be created? Gryllida (talk) 21:00, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

DGG, news, please? :-) Gryllida (talk) 23:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Gryllida., even were this normal times, I don't work this fast--there are already more things than I can handle.-- or even think about. I agree with your 3 points; but it is always easier to know what to do than to figure out how to do it. There are 3 potential places--adding it into article requests, making it a part of the Article Wizard, and integrating it into afch. Adding the requirement to article requests should not prevent someone from just asking for an article without saying anything more ,because sometimes the slightest information is enough--and as it is, the procedure its mostly ignored; The article wizard is agood way also but then the problem is how to divert everything through hte article wizard--the AW will need to be streamlined, also;. What I really want to figure out is how to add it as a first step in afch but then the difficulty is separating it from asking for the whole article. It is already a problem at afch when people write very incomplete drafts and never follow them up. In short, we should not add an additional step or procedure---we already have too many, but rather strengthen the existing ones. Probably we should try working on them all and seeing what will happen (In the past I've been more successful in first suggesting & encouraging things at one end--and clarifying & fixing out the problems at the other, but not doing the work in the middle. I've learned to be realistic about what I will accomplish, & I know I get easily diverted by immediate quick things that need doing. Keep reminding me, and I'll keep thinking. DGG ( talk ) 03:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Wouldn't expect a need to insert it in "all places", just a passing mention in article wizard should be good as a start? To see a small number of people use this new system and perhaps measure their success rates? I suspect that waiting to insert it everywhere and in afch and so on might cause an unnecessary delay. Gryllida (talk) 04:58, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I apologize for a delayed response, but the amount and nature of police activity in my area of brooklyn is not conducive to rational thought. DGG ( talk ) 05:26, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Intellectually independent drafts

Suppose User:A created a draft Draft:(title 1) and works from there. Around the same time, User:B created an article (title 1). The two creations are completely independent of each other, and use different sources etc. What should be done in this hypothetical case? Who should be given attribution for the creation of the page? Thanks, Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 02:46, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Eumat114, Is user B creating a mainspace article in this instance? You didn't put draft in front of that one so it's a bit unclear. If there's already an article in mainspace (no matter if it is a newer creation) I would just decline it and request a merge if there's something of substance to be copied over. If it's two competing drafts, then there's typically a UPE or UCOI at play. However, there are some exceptions, particularly in instances of a person/event recently in the news. In that case, I go with the older draft. The exception being if the older draft is still in someones userspace or sandbox and the newer draft already occupies the correct draft title, then I go with the newer one for convenience. E.g. User A creates Draft:Eumat in Jan 2020 and User B created User:Sulfurboy/sandbox/Eumat in Dec 2019.

However, this is just what I do, I don't know if there's some set policy or guideline in place. I imagine it's mostly an at your best discretion type of thing. Sulfurboy (talk) 03:01, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Sulfurboy, User B is creating a mainspace article, and the content is pretty intellectually independent of the draft A created. I guess a histmerge is to be done, but the question is that who should be attributed. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 03:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Eumat114, Oh you mean like how to attribute where the information that was added into the mainspace article from the draft came from? I would just add it and format the edit summary as: Copied content from ]; see that page's history for attribution Sulfurboy (talk) 03:10, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Sulfurboy, I guess you're not getting the key of the problem. Under what circumstances should User A be credited with the creation of the article, and under when should User B be? If the draft was a really well-written article while the mainspace one was pretty stubby (but still independent) I think it's unkind to User:A to credit the creation of the article to User:B. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 03:14, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Eumat114, It would be User B by default. As they are the creator of the mainspace article. Properly attributing who truly created the article is irrelevant (unless something's changed since my hiatus). I think you can have the same debate if someone takes an article from being a stub to B-Class or above. Who then is truly the creator of that page? The person who actually first created the stub, or the person who to turned the stub into an actual article? Sulfurboy (talk) 03:35, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, it all depends on circumstance. If User:A creates an Article and User:B creates a Draft, then the Article has priority. If the Draft is better than the Article, then it can be copy/pasted (using proper attribution) or just tell User:B to improve the Article. If the Article is better, then leave the Draft and tell User:B to switch their focus to the Article. Folks sometimes get too hung up on "who created the page" but that's why we have edit histories. Primefac (talk) 00:13, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

No, no, and for a third time no. Two pages that are intellectually independent (i.e. they're nothing alike) should never be histmerged. Ever. Full stop. There is an admin in particular who will histmerge without even looking, and it drives me nuts. Primefac (talk) 00:11, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

I'd defininitely just merge the draft and the mainspace page, and redirect from draftspace. PrussianOwl (talk) 17:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

WMF Growth team

Hi all -- I'm Marshall Miller; I'm the product manager for the WMF Growth team, which works on features to increase the retention of new editors. I last worked with AfC reviewers in 2018, on improvements to the New Pages Feed, and I'm back because I know this group knows a lot about new editors and how to help them. I'll keep this brief so as not to take up too much of your talk page with something not directly related to AfC.

Over the last year or so, the Growth team has been piloting features in small Wikipedias meant to increase productive edits from newcomers (such as the "suggested edits module" shown here). As our features become more developed, we're planning on expanding to larger wikis, and so I created this project page on English Misplaced Pages, looking to gather thoughts from English Wikipedians who think about new editors. I hope some of you can check out that page and leave any of your thoughts on the talk page, so that as we think about deploying features to bigger wikis, we'll take your ideas and concerns into account.

The latest idea we're thinking about is called "structured tasks". The idea builds on our previous work of task recommendations for newcomers, but is geared toward breaking down simple editing workflows (like copyediting or adding wikilinks) into steps that are easy for newcomers to accomplish, potentially assisted by algorithms. We are asking for thoughts and opinions on the project here on the talk page. I hope to see some of you in the conversation! -- MMiller (WMF) (talk) 01:18, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Editor retention is a huge concern in the English Misplaced Pages, particularly in AFC. COI or not, one of the most satisfying things for a new editor (like me :)) was a new article. Unfortunately, as article reviewing typically takes 6 weeks (up to now) and frankly speaking, I've been through a wait and a 1-month wait honestly isn't the most editor-retaining thing. Hence, I believe that a potential editor retaining way is to review newbie drafts before drafts from experienced users. And of course, the newbie homepage is a terrific idea, and perhaps when faced with a draft, the newbie can ask the mentor to review it? Anyone good enough to be a mentor should also be good enough to review at AFC. Thanks for the great idea, Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 01:55, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Eumat114. I'm glad to hear you like the concept of the newcomer homepage, and I think it's a great idea to use it to provide more hooks for mentors to be involved with their mentees. We've thought about whether we can encourage mentors to review the suggested edits that their newcomers do via the homepage, or whether the newcomers could proactively request that mentors review their work. Adding new page creations there would make a lot of sense. Please stay in touch with any other thoughts or ideas! -- MMiller (WMF) (talk) 23:08, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

I like the idea! Keep up the good work, we've had a long-time problem with editor retention. PrussianOwl (talk) 17:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Drafts for pages that already exist

Is there a "speedy" option similar to Speedy Deletion or PROD to address Drafts younger than 6 months that are for articles that already exist? I have Draft:Yugoslavia_in_the_Eurovision_Song_Contest_1968 (as created) and Draft:Eurovision Choir 2021 (as created) that are no longer being edited because the real articles now exist. Is protocol to just wait out the 6 months until they are automatically deleted or are there housekeeping options? Grk1011 (talk) 13:40, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Two options, the first being to leave it and let G13 take over, the second being to redirect the draft to the main page. The latter is really only necessary if there was more than one (or two) people editing the draft (for attribution issues etc). Primefac (talk) 15:38, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

As always, merge and redirect if you ask me. PrussianOwl (talk) 17:27, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Another Question About Drafts for Articles That Exist

I have another question about drafts on topics where the article already exists. These are declined with the 'exists' reason. My question is what should be done if the submitter resubmits the stub draft anyway, in particular when a Class C article already exists. (Well, the article was rated Stub class and should have been Class C, and, in the absence of any rule saying that I can't re-rate an article, I re-reated it Class C.) The specific question is about Draft:Sidhauli. The more general question is what to do in a similar situation. Either there is something that I don't understand, or there is something that the submitter doesn't understand, or there may be a language problem, that the submitter may not understand the advice that we are giving. Thoughts? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:55, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

• Robert McClenon they are two places with the same name in the same state but different district. I've seen a few declines for exists where the subject was different, or in one case just a redirect. I was just about it would be nice if submitters told us why, but then i realised I had not checked - see the talk page they did. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:04, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

User:KylieTastic - In that case, we need to disambiguate, and reviewers understand disambiguation better than new editors. That answers that. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:08, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Draft and Article at Same Time

A situation that I have seen repeatedly in the past week or two is where the submitter has created two nearly identical pages on the same topic, one in draft space and one in article space. Obviously the one in article space was created after they had been registered for four days and made ten edits. The problem is that in these cases it typically isn't clear whether the article should be an article. The draft can be declined because there is already an article. But there are really three possible outcomes. The first is that the article should be kept in article space. It was promoted by the author without review, but AFC review is optional, except for COI editors. If so, the draft can be redirected to the article. The second is that the page should be in draft space, a reasonable topic, but not ready for article space. The author has made draftifying impossible, so the choices are: G11 or A7; PROD; or AFD. The third outcome occasionally is that it doesn't belong anywhere.

Are there any more thoughts on what to do when an editor has created a draft and an article at the same time, and the page isn't ready for mainspace? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:05, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I've usually redirected the article to the draft with a summary of "one copy is enough" (or "one copy is more than enough" if it's particularly poor quality) then tagged the draft with {{subst:AFC draft| username}} and the article (now a redir) as WP:R2. I've not encountered any objection thus far. Cabayi (talk) 16:17, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: See the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/2020 1#Dealing with author "accepting" their own draft. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 17:32, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Gianluigi Feliu

Will a script developer or someone please look at this draft? I thought that I had declined it properly to indicate the language that it is in. However, the decline only says that it isn't in English. Looking inside the AFC submit stuff, I see that it did capture my input of Spanish, but it isn't reporting it as Spanish, only as not English.

Should I be reporting this to User:Enterprisey or to the developers or to somewhere in particular? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:44, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

It's trying to put "Spanish" as {{{3}}}, seemingly regardless of the order in which the decline rationale are selected. If |reason2=lang, then it should put |details2=Spanish, not |d|v|Spanish|. Can't tell if it's a bug on our end or on AFCH's end, though. Primefac (talk) 00:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Primefac and Robert McClenon, looks like a bug to report to Enterprisey. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 03:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

• it should be reported here according to the AFCH github page. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 03:38, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 May 2020

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

HNP News india (talk) 10:53, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

We cannot consider blank requests. 331dot (talk) 10:57, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

User:331dot - Why not? Spoilsport. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:19, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Pearson Regional Transit Centre

Per WP:OUTCOMES, a transit hub in a major metro area would almost certainly be kept at AfD. But what if it doesn't actually exist yet? Am I right in thinking this draft is WP:TOOSOON? SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 16:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

There are a lot of things that could happen between now and 2030. If I remember back when I was doing a bunch of maintenance work with the Shanghai and other Chinese metro lines, generally any new expansion would get a paragraph or two on the main "line" page until it had actually been built or was close enough to merit a spinoff. In other words, yes, it's a case of TOOSOON. Primefac (talk) 20:00, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Turkish military intervention in the Second Libyan Civil War

As I write this, Turkish military intervention in the Second Libyan Civil War appears to being nearing the end of the AfC process. I came across the article with the New Pages Patrol and considered it to be incomplete, so I (in good faith) moved it to draft space with a full explanation to the article's creator. This resulted in me being accused by someone else of censorship on the article's talk page and at my own talk page. I can deal with the accuser myself. But AfC reviewers here should be aware that the article has several empty sections, as was also noted by someone else at the article's talk page. My assessment is that it should remain in draft form until it is much closer to the point where interested members of the community have something concrete to work with. That is merely my opinion, but I do hope that the folks here will consider how an article full of holes makes Misplaced Pages look. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 14:49, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Doomsdayer520: Moving it to draft and trying to persuade the author to develop it further is fine, but bear in mind that the terms of WP:DRAFTIFY say that if anyone objects (and, if you're being accused of censorship, it sounds like someone has), you're obliged to move the page back to article space. An article full of holes makes Misplaced Pages look like what it is, a work perpetually in progress. It isn't pretty, but that's the nature of the beast. --Worldbruce (talk) 18:27, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

No real arguments here, but I received no requests to reverse my draftify move. User:Biomax20 brought the article back to namespace, and then accused me of deleting the article (which I might add would have made his/her own move impossible), and went on to accuse me of censorship at my own talk page. The responses in this thread agree that I should not have draftified, and I will accept that. But allow me to add that the article's talk page, and the personal talk pages of its two main editors, indicate that others have notice a misuse of procedures and WP terminology. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 20:44, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Doomsdayer520, I don't think draftifying was the right move here. Yes it needs expansion, but it would not be unequivocally deleted in mainspace, and it is getting about 5,000 views a month, which is far more than the average approved draft. It has the necessary cleanup tags, and now it will hopefully be seen by a wider audience who would be willing to improve it. CaptainEek ⚓ 18:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

I have at least two comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:17, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Censorship

The policy that Misplaced Pages is not censored is probably unfortunately titled, because for every dispute that is really about censorship, in the sense intended by the author of the policy, there are several cases where someone is Yelling Censorship in order to "win" a content dispute, as my essay, Yelling Censorship, explains. Usually when someone yells "Censorship", the dispute is really either undue weight or verifiability. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:17, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Move Wars

I do not know why some reviewers are willing to engage in move wars over pages that are not ready for article space, and why they insist on moving them back into draft space more than once. If the author of a page insists that they want to publish the page in mainspace and it isn't ready for mainspace, that can be resolved by Articles for Deletion. Move wars are at least as disruptive as regular edit wars. Don't move war. Use a dispute resolution process in place of a war. I don't know why some reviewers think that AFD is more harmful than a move war. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:17, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, well I see a reason why sending an accepted draft to AFD soon after the acceptance is harmful, especially for GF content creators. An AFD is one of the most off-putting things that can ever happen to a new user, which is why I left the Classical Chinese Misplaced Pages and joined the English Misplaced Pages. I also know, from my experience, that having an article declined is better than having it sent to AFD, even if the response takes some time. AFC is meant to serve new users, and neither a move war nor sending borderline cases to AFD achieve that. That is, unfortunately, one reason why Misplaced Pages isn't too editor-retaining. But as you mentioned, disputes over suitability (AFD) are best served at the right place (WP:AFD). When the right place defeats the purpose of AFC, we'll have to break out.

In this case, I have a potential idea: set up a "draft discussion area" inside AFC invisible to new users. This behind-the-scene activity can comprise AFC reviewers or otherwise non-AFC-reviewing experienced users; their job is to take some time to "simulate" an AFD as if the draft were in article space. Drafts accepted this way is supposed to be immune from AFD, since the draft discussion acts as an AFD. It might take 1 week or less, but the wait won't be particularly large as compared to the mean AFC waiting time. Is this a good idea? Thanks, Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 06:45, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Eumat114 - I agree that sending an accepted article from AFC to AFD is harmful, and sending an article from NPP to AFD is also undesirable. Sending an article from NPP to draft is less undesirable. (All ways of dealing with a good-faith new editor who has written a page that is completely unready for article space are undesirable. We just have to do the least undesirable thing.) However, my concern about move-warring has to do with the case where the author of an article moves it back into article space after it was already draftified once. This is probably a good-faith editor anyway, but a stubborn good-faith editor. The choices are to leave the bad article in article space the second time, or to move it back to draft space a second time, which is a move-war, or to tag it for AFD. AFD is less harmful than a move-war. We can't "win" the move-war without using admin tools to move-protect the page, and that isn't what admin tools were meant for. The community "wins" the AFD. The AFD does result in some hard feelings, but the move-war also results in hard feelings, and is disruptive. Just conceding and leaving the bad article in article space isn't an option, because someone will either CSD it or PROD it or AFD it. My point is that draftifying an article a second or third time is disruptive and stubborn. Some reviewers seem to think that draftifying it repeatedly is less bad than AFD. Some reviewers apparently think that AFD must be avoided at all costs. I disagree. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:49, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, I understand that a move war is undesirable. And I concur with you. And given that a move war represents a disagreement between editors, which must be resolved, an AFD is the standard avenue for resolving this disagreement. But the key point of my argument is that an AFD is so off-putting to editors that this is to be avoided (that's the point of AFC).

Therefore, my suggestion is holding an "invisible AFC" that discusses a draft in "backstage" and ends with a decision to accept/decline, and is seen as a full substitute of an AFD. There can be a user script that shows the "draft for discussion" notice for sufficiently experienced users. I hope this substitute successfully solves the problem. Cheers, Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 00:14, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Eumat114 - I agree that some procedure for discussion by other experienced editors of whether a draft can be accepted would be a good idea. I think that suggestions on how to do this would be useful. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:40, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, I'm gonna get WP:BOLD in creating a start-up of a Drafts for Consideration page at User:Eumat114/DFC. Please feel free to work on a basic structure, and then we can bring it to the Village Pump. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 04:27, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Maybe I'm misreading the discussion, but there is zero reason to have any sort of "pre-AFD" via AFC, because that's essentially what AFC is. If a draft is moved to the article space, then draftified, then moved back to the article space, it needs to then go through AFD. It is the epitome of pointless to war over the location of a page; if the creator insists that it be an article, and someone else disagrees, then AFD is the way to go. Primefac (talk) 14:41, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@Eumat114: You have no consensus for your proposal and you can expect to be rebuked at Village Pump. I agree with Primefac that AfD is the process. I'm sorry but I cannot empathize with your hurt feelings. AfD is a discussion to see if an article meets notability criteria. It is not a referendum on the editor who created the article. It is not a struggle session where the community punishes unpopular people. It's not even a discussion about the subject of the article! It is simply a matter of finding consensus regarding notability. That's it. As for retention, we have editors active on this platform who started 15 years ago. That you, personally, have heartburn does not mean there is something wrong with AfD. Chris Troutman (talk) 14:55, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Well then forget what I have been talking about. Thanks for your input; you may delete any page I have created for this mess. Cheers, Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 15:02, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Too far away from the original discussion

I started this whole mess by (in good faith) moving the article to draft space because I thought it was incomplete, and sent a message to the article creator to that effect, which by the way is an accepted procedure at Misplaced Pages:New_pages_patrol#Tools. I have already admitted above that this was an inappropriate step for this particular article so there is no need for additional argument about that, but I wonder if anybody in this thread actually inspected the history of the article, in which there were calls for more info followed by inaccurate condemnations, long before I came along. Did such accusations spook the AfC process?

I would have reversed the draftify move per reasonable request, which did not happen. Instead, a different user named Biomax20 reversed the move, then used two talk pages to accuse me of two things inaccurately: deleting the article (procedurally inaccurate) and censorship (possibly "yelling censorship" as discussed above). And now I may or may not have been accused here of engaging a "move war", when all I did was read the article as someone who knew nothing about the topic and found that it still taught me very little in its incomplete form. I started the discussion here with the contention that an incomplete article may not be ready to graduate the AfC process, so perhaps that is worth exploring. But THIS article has issues of its own. Oh well, perhaps someday I will learn from a much more informative version, after whatever it is that you guys do to encourage editors to help get it ready for prime time. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 17:52, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

June 2020 at Women in Red

Women in Red June 2020, Volume 6, Issue 6, Numbers 150, 151, 167, 168, 169 Online events: New: Pride / United Nations / Geofocus on reducing gender imbalance Continuing initiatives: #1day1woman / Sports Help us plan future events: Virtual Ideas Cafe Join the conversation: Women in Red talkpage Social media: Facebook / Instagram / Pinterest / Twitter Stay in touch: Join WikiProject Women in Red / Opt-out of notifications

--Rosiestep (talk) 17:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

One-time notice to reviewers

It was discussed a while ago about sending out a one time notice to active AfC participants about the existence of the list of active reviewers. The discussion kind of died out, but I still think it's a good idea. I created a draft here of what I was thinking should be sent out: User:Sam-2727/Draft AFC Message. Pinging Sulfurboy as I mainly had the discussion with them. Please look at the draft message I created and think if it would be a good idea to send out. If so, I can organize the mass message list/request the mass message. Regards, Sam-2727 (talk) 21:34, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Sam-2727 - I say yes. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:54, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Sam-2727, Looks great. Primefac, what would need to be done to get this sent out? Sulfurboy (talk) 02:29, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Theroadislong (talk) 02:46, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Sulfurboy, what I need to do is format the participants into a list that is parsable by the mass message sender special page. I'm doing this now. As an administrator, Primefac can send it, although it's probably quicker to just request at Misplaced Pages talk:Mass message senders, it seems requests are answered within hours there. Sam-2727 (talk) 02:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The list has been created at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Articles for creation/Mass Message List. Now all that needs to be done is send it to the mass messagers. I'll send it in 12 hours or so just to solicit other input here. Sam-2727 (talk) 03:02, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Sam-2727, you have my support. I've just done a few tweaks so it looks better. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 06:52, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Eumat114, thanks. One quick question: When you change the signature to four tildes, how would it just leave the signature of the mass message delivery vs. my signature? Sam-2727 (talk) 15:21, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Sam-2727, when it is substituted I guess the signature of the mass message sender is generated instead of your signature. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 15:27, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Eumat114, is that desirable? Perhaps change it to noping so there isn't a ping but it stlil has my signature. Sam-2727 (talk) 15:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I changed it, and it seems to be working now. Sam-2727 (talk) 15:55, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• Just a thought, I have been thinking that we have a lot of "active" and inactive reviewers that probably don't review because they they were only interested in some subjects, or articles that have a chance rather than just swat the junk. I've ben thinking we need to send a note to all reviewers to inform them to try get more actually reviewing. So maybe add a note that we now have Misplaced Pages:AfC sorting so reviewers can pick by subject and proposed class. Also I quoted "active" because the list has 442 entries + 12 probation but in the last month approx only 156 reviewed at least one. Then if that encouraged people back we could message the 563 inactive. Regards KylieTastic (talk) 16:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

  KylieTastic, Well it was just sent... But maybe in the future we can send out something for that (perhaps a bi-yearly newsletter). Sam-2727 (talk) 16:39, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• Yes worst timing ever... hit publish and it says I have a message....guess what. DOH! KylieTastic (talk)

And to be honest, if anything people should be encouraged to switch their attention to NPP. The AfC backlog is at least decreasing in size. Sam-2727 (talk) 18:39, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• I'd strongly disagree with that - most complete crap in article space still gets caught quickly, so all it means is some low/no notability stuff takes a while to be caught and deleted (and vast amounts of historic junk lives on anyway). The poor suckers submitting to AfC had to wait up to 5+ months to get a first response, even now 5 weeks is way to long and will just put off so many good editors. If I had tactually started with article writing as i intended, and had even had to wait 5 weeks there is no way I would have bothered to continue. AfC is a new editor retention killer in it's current state. The backlog is already creeping up again, and in all the years I've been doing this we've never got it below ~800 and people waiting weeks. This project has never worked as intended (IMHO), yet it seams more people are willing to just draftify over AfD just adding more load, or force editors to use AfC who spam us with 50 poor articles at a time. Most WikiProjects don't care (like we have 50+ football articles). If it's got to the point that even AfC people say don't bother do something else then maybe it's time to just give up on Draft/AfC as a failed idea. KylieTastic (talk) 19:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

User:KylieTastic- On the one hand, I agree that AFC is not working well and has never been working well. But if we give up on it, what do we replace it with? Three types of drafts mostly go into Draft space, drafts that are submitted by the author, conflict of interest drafts, and articles that are draftified. Would we be telling the new editors to submit their work into article space, and are we willing to send it to AFD? Would we be telling the NPP reviewers that, without draftify as an option, they should send crud to AFD? And what would we do about the COI submissions? Would we tell them to use Requested Articles instead? That is a black hole that takes not a few months but a few years. I agree that AFC and Drafts are not working well. But what is the alternative? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert McClenon (talk • contribs) 13:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

KylieTastic, While I agree with your point that AfC could certainly be improved a lot, I review NPP from the back occasionally, and still find articles that are blatantly paid for or obvious COI. Sam-2727 (talk) 15:08, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Jigarthanda (soundtrack)

I would like the thoughts of other reviewers on what to do with this draft. It appears to me that it passes musical notability, and that would be the basis of any AFD. However, the history is that there was an article, and it has been stubbed down to a redirect. I can't find a deletion discussion or merge discussion that was the basis of a consensus to merge, so my first thought and second thought is to accept the draft, but that would seem to involve a history merge. So my third thought is to ask for other opinions before asking for a history merge, and my fourth thought is that asking for other opinions is usually either a good idea or a neutral idea.

What should we do about this draft? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:19, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, that's a lot of thoughts. What you're proposing seems to be the correct course of action here as this version has more content the verison pre-redirect, and redirects are one editor's opinion on a topic. If someone truly wants to turn this into a redirect again, they can bring it to AfD. Sam-2727 (talk) 03:30, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Robert McClenon as it was User:AmericanAir88 that redirected Jigarthanda (soundtrack) to Jigarthanda and merged into Jigarthanda (2014 film) with this stating "Merging per discussion" you could ask for their input as they are still active. ( I have fixed the redirect). Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 11:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

See Talk:Jigarthanda (2014 film) for discussion KylieTastic (talk) 11:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

User:KylieTastic, User:Sam-2727 - On thinking about it, since there was discussion, I am inclined to think that the redirect needs to be re-discussed, and so my thinking is that I will nominate the redirect at Redirects for Discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Anniyan (soundtrack)

This is a similar history and the same question. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:26, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Was this one discussed? It isn't obvious to me on first look. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Articles for Creation: List of reviewers by subject notice

Hi WikiProject Articles for creation, you are receiving this notice because you are listed as an active Articles for Creation reviewer.

Recently a list of reviewers by area of expertise was created. This notice is being sent out to alert you to the existence of that list, and to encourage you to add your name to it. If you or other reviewers come across articles in the queue where an acceptance/decline hinges on specialist knowledge, this list should serve to facilitate contact with a fellow reviewer.

To end on a positive note, the backlog has dropped below 1,500, so thanks for all of the hard work some of you have been putting into the AfC process!

Sent to all Articles for Creation reviewers as a one-time notice. To opt-out of all massmessage mailings, you may add Category:Wikipedians who opt out of message delivery to your user talk page. Regards, Sam-2727 (talk)

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:35, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Reviewer competent in Ukrainian needed

Most of the sources of Draft:Alen Panov are in Ukrainian,so I'm unable to evaluate them. The acceptance or rejection of this draft depends on the WP:DEPTH of the sources. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 18:09, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Dodger67 - Is it an autobiography?  Robert McClenon (talk) 21:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:46, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Dodger67 and Robert McClenon, we can use the new list of reviewers by expertise.

Analysis

There are no reviewers good at Ukrainian, and Russian is the closest possible language. GRuban is the best man for the job, since Hellknowz is not willing to review biographies. In the future, this process may be automated. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 06:44, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Will review, thanks for asking. --GRuban (talk) 12:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Reviewed, as per User:GRuban/Alen Panov. In short,

• the subject is notable, so I am pushing the article to main space,
• but the article needs expansion, the Ukrainian Misplaced Pages article could be a big help for that
• and the main image is possibly a copyright violation, and needs an email to OTRS to confirm it is freely released by the copyright owner. --GRuban (talk) 14:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Rebecca Harris (filmmaker)

Will someone please look at this draft? What is the role of Rebecca Harris on The Silent Child? Robert McClenon (talk) 13:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Robert McClenon: She was there when the Oscar was picked up. There is a story with a pic of her holding it. Definitely part of the core team that brought the film to fruition. scope_creep 16:55, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Inactive thresholds too strict?

I noticed that 37% of the reviewer requests for the past two months have been re-activation requests. That signals to me that our inactive thresholds may be too strict and we are de-activating lots of people who still want to participate. I realize that we want to make sure reviewers are up on current guidelines and practices, but I don't think taking a 2-month break from editing (or a 6-month break from reviewing) is going to cause people to be significantly out of touch with current practices. Kaldari (talk) 15:18, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree. SD0001 (talk) 16:20, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

This is a little bit of a false dichotomy, actually; no one has actually been added to the inactive list for quite a while, and the only major change is the location of said list. AFCH has (for a while now) been pulling any name on the page (inactive section or not) and allowed them access. I moved the inactives to their own page both to combat this issue and to keep the size of WP:AFCP down to a reasonable level. The reactivations are (as near as I can tell) folks who "went inactive" years ago, then came back and started reviewing (despite being on the inactive list) and are only now being restricted because of the changes I made in February. Primefac (talk) 17:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

References

1. I think I stopped pruning back in early 2019

Draftify from users sandbox issue...

I had previously draftified User:Ipowlick/sandbox and that article was accepted, the user then created a new draft in their sandbox and moved to draft Draft:Tripple X III. They then asked me how to submit which I did for them. However I then noticed the original draftify has left me as the creator of that article which does not seam fair or correct. I've also noticed this has happened before crediting me with creating Asipim and Move/Daisies (song) (now deleted). This is a consequence I hadn't considered and had not seen mentioned before. Not sure what should be done. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 08:36, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Nothing? It's clear by the page history that you weren't the creator of the content, just the redirect, and even if an admin were to delete the page for the sole purpose of restoring it without that initial creation, from a MW standpoint they wouldn't "get credit" on anything like xtools etc. Primefac (talk) 14:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Automation of list of reviewers by subject

Eumat114, Sdkb and I were discussing potential automation of the list of reviewers by subject, even extending a request for review to be automatic. Feedback and advice would be appreciated at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Articles for creation/List of reviewers by subject#Tie in to userboxes? or here. Thanks, Sam-2727 (talk) 20:54, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Transwiki-ing drafts

I was wondering, do you think it'd be a good idea to transwiki pages from the Draft: namespace to other wikis, to see if they pass muster there? Specifically in this case a Czech draft and a Persian draft. PrussianOwl (talk) 01:45, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

PrussianOwl, If you're familiar with other wiki's notability guidelines, then go for it. Just keep in mind each wiki has different standards for notability. Sulfurboy (talk) 05:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

FloridaArmy

For those unaware the reason FloridaArmy spams AfC is due to this ANI issue — offloading the strain on AfD and other areas onto AfC. However their ongoing behaviour does not seem fair to the other submitters or on the reviewers. According to Template:AFC statistics/pending they currently have 68 open submissions (4.6% of all submission), also they just resubmit with little or no changes causing much more load. I just noticed they recently submitted multiple articles with only 1 source such as Draft:James Martin (South Carolina), Draft:Solomon Dill, Draft:Joseph Crews and Draft:Lucius Wimbush which they clearly know is not good enough. Yesterday I rejected Draft:Koninklijke Militaire School with no independent sources, just the single schools own link. In the past they have added non references such just a film name as a ref for the same film and other such things that they clearly know are not valid. They clearly do understand how things work and the guidelines, but persist of submitting the junk with the good and have a more combative than collaborative attitude to editing. They appear to be getting worse (from what I've seen), maybe due to virus lockdown.... is it not time to take some action? They continue to expect others to do work for them, never submitting properly (just with {{submit}} so AFCH does not work until fixed up), rarely formatting references, first submits that have no chance of acceptance without others improving first etc. Their behaviour was not considered good enough for AfD, why should it be OK to continue in AfC? Should this go back to ANI? Should they be restricted to the number of current open submissions, and not allowed to just resubmit? I'm sure if they focused on fewer articles at once, and worked more collaboratively they would be an big positive to the project, but they way they choose to work is not fair on others (submitters and/or reviewers). Thoughts? KylieTastic (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

This needs to go back to ANI. I will point out that the drafts you listed (except the school) were legislators and per WP:NPOL are presumed notable. Theoretically, those drafts ought to be approved now, as is. I agree, this sort of nonsense is not the optimal way to build an encyclopedia but I recall Jayen466 saying "Whatever Misplaced Pages as a community is doing, it is more of a vehicle for contributors' self-indulgence than it is a concerted endeavour to bring free knowledge to the world." FloridaArmy is just being self-indulgent, like most editors are. Don't be surprised when the cohort at ANI defends one of their own. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:07, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

@Chris troutman: "just being self-indulgent, like most editors are" - damn, that's a depressing view on people! KylieTastic (talk) 10:53, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I've started rejecting the articles that they resubmit with serious improvements as WP:GAMING the system and contrary to the purpose of Misplaced Pages. I also decline when they submit articles that have multiple explict grammar/spelling issues or have issues with improperly formatted references. If they're not going to take the time to put together a proper article, then I'm not going to waste my time with deep diving the references.

I've noticed that the problematic articles are typically the ones about actors from the silent film era. I've started decline those unless there's a clear sourcing demonstrating they've had major roles in wiki-notable films.

I would support any further action in an ANI, just ping me to it. I think limiting the amount of pending drafts is probably the best solution. Sulfurboy (talk) 05:32, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Sulfurboy - Do you mean that you are "rejecting the articles that they resubmit with serious improvements" or that you are rejecting the articles that they submit without serious improvements? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:02, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it is bad as that from personal experience of going through several dozens of FloridaArmy's stuff in the past. I think certainly some articles that came through are rank. This draft article, Draft:Albert Percy Godber I think is notable, although it needs some work certainly. It has not been given a fair shake, due to to the blizzard of rank coming through. The ideal solution would be to encourage the editor on the larger articles, to try and improve them, and reject all the rank one liners outright, that are no use to man nor god. scope_creep 09:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

This is the worst draft i've seen: Draft:Lucius Wimbush. The minimum amount of effort expended here, is mind boggling. scope_creep 09:43, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, User:KylieTastic, for showing us why FloridaArmy is using AFC. I must not have been following WP:ANI at the time. I sometimes do and sometimes don't (and may have been sick at the time). They are an "interesting" case as one of the largest stub-creators we have, and many of their stubs are marginally good enough. I have dealt with some of their silent-film stubs, and with legislator stubs. I may comment more shortly. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

If the question is whether to go back to WP:ANI, my question is what we would ask from the community, and whether we, a subcommunity, can simply impose our own quasi-sanctions. I agree that a lot of their submissions are crud, but the thing about two-sentence sub-stubs is that they are easy enough to decline or reject without the reviewer doing a lot of work. Maybe we are just trying too hard to do more than our share of the work. FA is, overall, a small net positive to the encyclopedia, which is more than can be said of the submitter of Draft:Back Market, but perhaps in both cases we as a subcommunity just need to push back. Is there anything that ANI can do that we can't do by just pushing back? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

What if we, the AFC reviewers, make a rule that anything that isn't right on the second submission goes into the Rejection bin? What if we, the reviewers, make a rule that anything coming from anyone that isn't right on the third submission goes into the Rejection bin? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:12, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I feel that I should mention under this header that, in my opinion, FloridaArmy has done some good work in getting drafts on state supreme court justices (of which there are well over a thousand) in shape to be moved to mainspace. BD2412 T 20:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree BD2412 they have and continue to do so much good for the project, which is why it's so frustrating to have the other side of their work. It's a real Jekyll and Hyde that is baffling. I guess many articles they submit are just with what they believe is the minimum to get accepted by the guidelines, rather than what most would do and try to add more to make notability clear. KylieTastic (talk) 20:30, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• It appears that they believe that it's racism rather than poor sourcing that is the issue... see User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Racism_on_Wikipedia. That's an angle I had not even considered..... but then I care not one iota of the race, gender, age of either the subject or the submitter. I agree that it sucks really bad that history has failed both women, minorities (and others) but I will treat them the same as subjects I'm interested in but don't have sources.... individuals desires don't matter squat. Show me sources and I'm happy to accept anyone. Sources do exist for some, and with a brief scan I added 2 to Henry Cardozo and Lucius Wimbush. There is a ton load of racism in the world, but I see no evidence that it has played any part in AfC declines against FA. KylieTastic (talk) 20:23, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
• We all see a lot of of Florida's submissions. I think there are two issues here. One: Florida has a very different view on notability than most of us, and has been pushing it for some time. Two: They are not very careful. Florida's approach is scattershot, they throw a lot at the wall, and some of it sticks. Certainly, Florida is a prolific creator, and has gotten a great many articles approved. But every day a great many are declined too, which sucks up our time. Perhaps what is needed is some sort of submission limit for Florida? Such as a three strikes system, where two declines and the third is always a rejection? Or perhaps auto-rejecting non-improved drafts? Florida has been at this for years and should know better. But that sort of thing may need to happen at ANI, not here. CaptainEek ⚓ 20:36, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree with User:CaptainEek that we should follow a three-strike system. I am inclined to think that we should employ a three-strike system on any editor who resubmits without actively asking for advice. I agree that two strikes should be enough sometimes. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
• Sigh. I've been following Florida Army for a long time, and now that I've gotten involved with AfC reviews, I'm seeing him a lot more. Here's my take on things. As I've told him many times (and I'm sure others have too), he should concentrate on writing fewer articles of higher quality. And he should be more open to accepting constructive criticism from his fellow editors. And he should learn how to research topics beyond doing a google search and mindlessly copying the top 3 or 4 ghits. And he should absolutely stop wasting reviewers' time by resubmitting garbage drafts with no substantial improvements. But, the bottom line is he keeps finding interesting and important (if not necessarily notable by our standards) historical topics to write about. Damn, I'd rather have an encyclopedia full of badly written silent film stubs than one full of perfectly written UPE biography, corporate, and struggling entertainer spam. If wading through piles of FloridaArmy's sub-stubs is the price for that, then I say, bring it on. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:47, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree with User:RoySmith that FloridaArmy is much to be preferred over spam, and that FloridaArmy is a net positive and the spammers are negative (without providing any counterbalancing positive). I think it is silly to expect that FloridaArmy will ever focus on creating fewer better articles. We have to recognize that they are a prolific stub-creator, and that we would rather curse about them than not have them. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:55, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
    • I think we'd be better off for requesting ANI implement a rate limit. In fact, usually in cases like this, a rate limit is automatically applied. 1 a week, with resubmits counting as 1, would seem fine, and mean comparatively little disruption overall, and potentially encourage FA into prioritising a few. He is better than a spammer. I'm somewhat reticent to implement a strikes system generally - i do actually see a few that improve despite an avalanche of declines. In response to one suggestion above, how would we know if they'd actively sought help? That can be done at AFCHD, or to any of the reviewers. Nosebagbear (talk) 14:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
• To follow up on my own comment above, I was just reminded of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Oberlin Academy Preparatory School. People should go read it. It sums up the entire situation here; badly written draft, inexcusable blugdeoning of the AfC process, but a historically important subject which is infinitely more encyclopedic than, say, Westwood Regional High School, which I attended. There's so many things I wish had gone better with the path that draft traveled, but the bottom line is the encyclopedia is better for that article having been written. The various people who declined the draft and tried to delete it from mainspace were undoubtedly following the letter of some guideline/policy/whatever, but clearly didn't understand why we're here. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:29, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
• I believe there is enough consensus here to take this to ANI, I'm going to use Kylie's OP in the ANI and tag those of you that agree there needs to be some sort of action. Sulfurboy (talk) 04:31, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Football

I notice we have a lot of football submission... I have been tagging them so they appear on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Football/Article_alerts#AFC but the list now shows 56 so I guess the project is not very active (at least in draft). So from WP:AFC/RBS pinging @Drat8sub: @Eagleash: @HitroMilanese: @Number 57: @SK2242: as interested reviewers. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 14:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

KylieTastic, the majority of the drafts seem to be from the same user, who used to be under some discretionary sanctions which seemed to be lifted. Given that most of the drafts are of good quality, I don't see a lot of huge problems. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 03:18, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

This user is also aware of the notability policy around WP:NFOOTY, which puts reviewers in a bind for declining. Bkissin (talk) 16:10, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but many footballers who fail WP:NFOOTY end up being notable. And most footballers passing WP:NFOOTY already have articles written by fans. So there really is no need to decline, if the player is sufficiently close to notability. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 03:48, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:AfC sorting updates

Hey, Misplaced Pages:AfC sorting currently only updates once a day, but for those that work at the other end it's already quite out of date (in parts). I'm not sure every hour is needed as Template:AFC statistics/pending does (at least when replag is not too high), but maybe updating a bit more often would be helpful now it's gained some traction. Unless there is a technical reason, or restriction I think it would be helpful due to the amount of submissions each day. Was/is there a reason for daily @SD0001:? — Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 18:51, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I also think that would be nice - I noticed that yesterday (I don't know if this is usually a problem or if it was a one-off) it was at least a couple hours behind. Looking at a couple histories it might have been as much as 18 hours, so I'm going to assume that was a one-off issue. LittlePuppers (talk) 22:07, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Sure. It takes the bot just about 15 minutes to generate the updates. Would it make sense to update it every 6 hours? SD0001 (talk) 11:47, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@SD0001: 6 hours sounds good to me, if people want to see newer ones they can just trawl through the latest submits in the 0 Day cat and ignore those not of interest. Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 12:07, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Done. By the way, if any developer is interested, some further work related to the various sortlists is planned. See User:SDZeroBot#To do. SD0001 (talk) 17:39, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Back Market

I am calling the attention of reviewers to Draft:Back Market and Draft:Back Market/2 as what may be a new game by submitters. The submitter is saying, "Please revise this draft for me so that you don't think that it is promotional". If a topic is clearly notable and doesn't have an article, it is the job of neutral editors to develop a neutral article. However, in this case, there are both notability issues and tone issues. This is the sort of page where, in article space, an editor can !vote Delete because, if the promotional content is stripped out, not much is left. As you can see, I Rejected both versions of the draft, and that will probably be the end of that, but it may be a new annoying game that we should be ready for. (I would have declined the drafts, except that asking us to do the work of writing the article annoyed me.)

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this, other than Decline or Reject? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Highlight the entire article in blue, then link WP:VOLUNTEER. Nothing other than that.

More seriously, I think rejecting it's appropriate. LittlePuppers (talk) 22:09, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Unchanged resubmissions

I've been meaning to ask about this for a bit and the discussion about a certain editor prolific at AfC above reminded me to do so: what do you guys do when you come across an unchanged resubmission (and do you check for this)? If the article has been previously declined I usually at least glance through the history to see what's changed, and it's not super uncommon to find resubmissions without changes (although it's not so common that it's a major issue, either). Is there any good response to this other than rejecting it with a custom reason along the lines of "no changes since last submission, previous comments still valid"? LittlePuppers (talk) 23:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

A lot of people do just that, decline with the reason "unchanged since last submission". I think some people who don't know how the review system works will resubmit a draft without changes in hopes of getting a more lenient reviewer to see it, and they don't think reviewers can see previous submissions. Basically they're trying to game the system. PrussianOwl (talk) 23:39, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Ditto that. While there is the occasional new reviewer (or someone not part of this project) declining drafts incorrectly, I have found over the years many times over that in resubmit-without-change drafts the original decline was justified. These days, I don't even look at the draft if no changes have been made. Primefac (talk) 00:06, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

I have a few comments. First, I always check on a resubmission what has changed. Second, I recommend checking the draft talk page to see if the submitter has said something. That is really a better place for comments than AFC comments, because it survives acceptance. Third, if the submitter-author wants to discuss something, we should discuss something. I assume that the question is about resubmissions where it is clear the submitter-author is not discussing. Fourth, sometimes the resubmitter is an IP. IPs have a right to use AFC, because they are required to use AFC, but they should follow the same rules as registered editors of being reasonable and constructive. Fifth, I have a template to insert when there has been no improvement, {{noimprove}}. It is a little harsh, so I try to use judgment as to whether it is in order. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Template merger discussion

Template:AFC submission/draft/HD preload has been nominated for merging. Please see the nomination and comment there if desired. Thanks. Primefac (talk) 23:36, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Random drafts

It seems like the problem with the "Random Draft" buttons being anything but random has been getting worse and worse. I ran a test by clicking it 25 times, and I got the following:

• Draft:Ahsan Mohsin Ikram
• Draft:Ahsan Mohsin Ikram
• Draft:North Tipperary intermediate hurling championship
• Draft:Francisco Fernández de Xátiva
• Draft:Martin Burt
• Draft:Chetan Singh Solanki
• Draft:North Tipperary intermediate hurling championship
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation/Redirects and categories
• Draft:Picnic Kibun
• Draft:Beirut Yacht Club
• Draft:Krav Boca
• Draft:Beirut Yacht Club
• Draft:Just d'Urgell
• Draft:Mahamari
• Category:Pending AfC submissions in userspace
• Draft:Chetan Singh Solanki
• Draft:Just d'Urgell
• Draft:Krav Boca
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation/Redirects and categories
• Draft:2014 Wigan Warriors season
• Draft:Joaquín de Santiyán y Valdivieso
• Draft:Ahsan Mohsin Ikram
• Category:Pending AfC submissions in userspace
• Draft:Juraj Malevac
• Draft:Martin Burt

That's only 15 unique values out of 25 tries (or to put it another way, 60% of the unique pages I saw were duplicated or tripled). If it were a truely random draw of 25 pages from a category of 1,350, there would only be a 20% chance of getting any duplicates, and the odds of 10 duplicates is something like 10^-18. To make it worse, of those 25 drafts, only two were pages that I hadn't seen in the last few days of browsing through random items in that category, making it essentially useless.

To that end, I wrote toolforge:RandomInCategory to actually do a random draw. It has the added advantage of being able to filter by namespace and to avoid hitting category pages. You can read the documentation here, but you can essentially just substitute Special:RandomInCategory/Pending_AfC_submissions with toolforge:RandomInCategory/Pending_AfC_submissions and it will work. To only show pages in the User: and Draft: namespaces, use toolforge:RandomInCategory/Pending_AfC_submissions&namespace=2!118&type=page. It will be a little slower to load initially as it accesses the API, but it caches data for 10 minutes so subsequent uses should be fast.

Try it out, let me know if there are any issues that come up, and if it works, we can open a discussion about using it on the various AfC templates and tools. --Ahecht (TALK
PAGE) 21:38, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

When I was a teenage computer programmer 55 years ago, I remember discussing some of the tests of the quality of pseudo-random number generation algorithms, and the algorithms were not very good, and resulted in oddities like those. There is no excuse for that sort of non-random behavior of pseudo-random numbers in this century. Thank you, User:Ahecht. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:15, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Robert McClenon and Ahecht, I have implemented a user script that uses the new RandomInCategory: User:Eumat114/RandomAfC.js, as an alternative to User:DannyS712/RandomAfC.js. Please feel free to test it out and give feedback. Thanks! Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 13:08, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Draft: Avyar

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm going to be entirely honest, I've probably handled this poorly, but would someone mind looking at Draft:Avyar and my talk and providing feedback/advice, as the author seems a bit... confrontational? (Pinging Amkgp and Sulfurboy because why not, and also for having previous involvement with the draft (and user) but being smart enough to not reply too many times.) Should I just ignore it at this point (or rather... a long time ago)?

Also... is it bad that I came back to Misplaced Pages (after a bit of a break) last week and I already feel like I need to take a break again? LittlePuppers (talk) 01:05, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

LittlePuppers, unfortunately many new editors are quite toxic (and to be honest, some parts of Misplaced Pages in general) when you decline their draft. In the future for situations like these, I would just say "please direct further comments to the AfC help desk" or something amongst those lines. Editors there have good practice in toning down an argument, and once the conversation is archived, that's the end of it!. Clearly the editor doesn't get what you're saying so at this point I would de-escalate the situation by giving shorter and shorter responses. Sam-2727 (talk) 02:20, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree that it is best not to try to engage in discussion on one's talk page. I usually say that I will request the advice of other experienced editors at the Teahouse; the AFC help desk is another reasonable option. It is hard to say how much of the problem here is a linguistic disconnect. I would also add that in the past some editors have insisted on trying to provide me with the sources or the explanation rather than putting it in the article, which implies that they don't understand the concept that the encyclopedia should speak for itself. That is, they are in good faith confused as to how the encyclopedia works, and we have to keep them straight. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I had tried to explain the same when asked via my talk page. I highlighted the problems with that version. But the creator was in a constant denial mode. I also asked to post further queries and assistance at Teahouse. Thank you. ~ Amkgp ✉ 05:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for all of your guys' ideas, I'll point them in that direction. I guess I'm just frustrated because I think there's good intent in there somewhere, plus the language barrier. LittlePuppers (talk) 06:44, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I've rejected it this time, and have told them not to try to resubmit it without discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:37, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

They have responded both at the AFC Help Desk and on some of our talk pages with insults. I said that the subject probably was notable but the draft did not establish notability. I have said that in the past. I think that it means that you need to write a better draft. They said that has a double meaning, which is that the content is not welcome in Misplaced Pages. That's a really bizarre reply. At this point I am willing to leave them alone and see if they go away. If they do, it is unfortunate that they were a net negative, but have gone away. If they continue to insult us, then either an uninvolved administrator will give them a block, or an editor will report them at WP:ANI, where an uninvolved administrator will give them a block. Oh well. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:46, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I told them that they are an auto-confirmed editor and can move the article into article space. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

I reported them at WP:ANI with diffs of insults to reviewers, and of their strange diatribe at the Help Desk. We shall see. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:43, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Copy-Paste Question (Draft into Article Space)

I have a question about a situation that seems to be occurring at least daily. I probably have only been noticing it daily in recent days, because it probably has long been happening. A draft has been sitting in draft space waiting to be reviewed. Maybe it has been reviewed and declined at least once and resubmitted; that is not important. Then an editor, often a newly auto-confirmed editor, not one of the previous contributors to the draft, comes along and does a copy-paste of the draft into article space. In that case, attribution has been lost. It is my understanding that a history merge from the draft into the article is required. Twinkle can be used to tag the article as needing a history merge. The draft must be declined for 'exists', and an explanation should be made that the draft was copy-pasted into article space and a history merge is required. Sometimes editors get annoyed about having credit or awards or whatever stolen, but this really is a case where there is a mechanism for restoring credit. Is that correct so far? The copy-pasting editor who put the article in article space can be given a Twinkle template. However, here is the complication. The draft may have been declined for notability or verifiability or tone reasons. I have concerns about the article. The article cannot be draftified. I tag the article as having notability issues. Is there something else that can be done? The article cannot be draftified.

Robert McClenon (talk) 15:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, the article could be draftified after the history merge by tagging the redir in draft space for a G6 speedy deletion. This happens all the time for obstructed moves, although not usually to draft space. However, whether a move back to draft is wise is another question. If a good-faith editor thinks it should be in mainspace, move warring is not the best idea. You could: 1) start a discussion on the article talk page about what to do, pinging the original creator and any other interested editors; 2) tag for notability and any other concerns and do nothing further; 3) edit to fix as many concerns as you can; 4) send to AfD. There are drawbacks to each of these. DES _{DESiegel Contribs} 19:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

User:DESiegel - Yes. Option 2 is the honest lazy way out. Option 1 is a slightly less lazy honest way out. Options 3 and 4 sound like work, and I was already working a queue. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:49, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Yep, Robert McClenon, 3 and 4 would entail time and effort, and you may not choose to invest them or have them to spare. If you really think re-draftification is the best solution, tag the draft with {{Db-move}} and I or another admin will address the matter. None of threse is an ideal solution, I'm fresh out of those. DES _{DESiegel Contribs} 19:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I never think that re-draftification is a solution to something that has been already draftified once. I think that PROD is sometimes a quick and dirty measure in such cases. If the author de-PRODs it, someone else is likely to do the work of AFD. (Of course, a good PROD requires writing a good PROD reason. Somehow PROD doesn't seem like as much work to me.) Robert McClenon (talk) 23:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

To answer the first question, as stated, it should be {{histmerge}}'d. Whether this is a histmerge to article space or a "histmerge" (i.e G6/move/then restore versions) to the Draft space is up to the reviewer. If it's been draftified before, then it should go to PROD or AFD. Primefac (talk) 00:37, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Problem with submit button

I'm able to launch the script to review Draft:Simeon Farr , but it will not let me "Accept" this submission . When I click it nothing happens. I can comment though, is there a bug? Theroadislong (talk) 20:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC).

The accept button worked for me; doesn't seem to be a problem with the script. TryKid  20:50, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

If it's a FloridaArmy submission, it's because they refuse to {{subst:submit}} and just use {{submit}}. Allows AFCH to load but doesn't load any features. Primefac (talk) 00:35, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Problem with submit button

I've got the missing and/or submit button not working problem. scope_creep 08:26, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Accept button does not work

Other buttons work but Accept button doesn't work. When I click it nothing happens. What may be the reason? ~SS49~ {talk} 06:33, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Same here! It is not working for me? I want to accept this draft. --KartikeyaS (talk) 07:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

  I think enterprisey made an update yesterday, but I haven't had a chance to check the logs to verify (just an email giving a blank update notice). Worth a ping. Primefac (talk) 13:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Courtecy ping Primefac and enterprisey Accept button still not working. I see other editors are accepting drafts. What happened with mine. Please help. Thanks! ~SS49~ {talk} 01:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Having ongoing problems with "Accept" script not working, when I click accept nothing happens, have tried clearing cache and using different browser with no joy. Tried accepting Draft:Calabasas Peak and Draft:Richmond Opera this morning but just not happening. Comment and decline working fine Theroadislong (talk) 07:13, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Update, enterprisey the accept button works for me using Chrome but not on Safari or Firefox browsers. Theroadislong (talk) 09:26, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Works fine for me in Firefox. KylieTastic (talk) 10:39, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Not having any luck from Firefox or Chrome. Decline and Comment works fine but Accept doesn't. Has it been figured out by chance or is it something I need to do on my end? --CNMall41 (talk) 06:56, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

It wasn't working for me last week, and have not used it since. I had to manual move, no redirect. scope_creep 07:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Courtesy ping Primefac and enterprisey Still no luck accepting drafts with Safari for example Daisy Edgar-Jones.Theroadislong (talk) 10:30, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

We shouldn't approve articles with deprecated sources

Is there any way to easily spot and not approve the use of deprecated sources, e.g. the Daily Mail or The Sun? They shouldn't be in almost any Misplaced Pages article, but almost all new uses of these sources seem to come in via AFC. (Usually on self-promotional articles.) There's an edit filter for deprecated sources - is there a way to get it to kick in here? - David Gerard (talk) 22:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

@David Gerard: I don't know the answer to your question about the edit filter, but if unreliable sources is a particular concern for you, you might wish to try User:Headbomb/unreliable.js. It will make some drafts unpleasant to look at, but they're ones that are usually unpleasant to read anyway. --Worldbruce (talk) 23:24, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The mere use of a deprecated source should not be grounds for rejection, and almost all of the deprecated sources have some circumstances in which they may properly be used, so I think the kind of automated reaction that an edit filter gives would be a mistake. Now a script to draw attention to such sources, so that the reviewer can point them out and take them into accou8nt in making review decisions, that might well be useful. DES _{DESiegel Contribs} 23:41, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The language at WP:DEPS is currently being strengthened on this point - see WT:DEPS.

While you could stretch to find a philosophical reason, there are pretty much no reasons why a user new enough to be going through AFC should be using deprecated sources.

In practice, the usages coming through AFC are bad. AFC shouldn't actually be just another inlet for this stuff - David Gerard (talk) 08:07, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• Let's remember that the core purpose of AfC is to accept any submission that would probably survive an AfD. That's it. There is no way that using deprecated sources alone would get an article deleted. If they turn up in AfC submissions, just remove them, or if you can't spare the time, tag it with {{Unreliable sources}} and wait for someone else to do it. – Joe (talk) 09:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
  • It would be a very strong argument for it, however. If a BLP shows up cited to nothing but the Daily Mail, it usually gets speedied. If that BLP came through AFC, that's absolutely a failure of AFC - David Gerard (talk) 12:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Drafts for Discussion

This may be an idea that has been discussed and dismissed previously, but it may be an attempt to provide detail for an idea that has been dismissed due to lack of detail in the past. From time to time, someone has proposed one of three ideas about Miscellany for Deletion. The first is that it should be renamed Miscellany for Discussion. The second and third are that drafts should be split out from other miscellany and have their own XFD, which might be either Drafts for Deletion, the second idea, or Drafts for Discussion, the third idea. The first idea, changing Miscellany for Deletion to Miscellany for Discussion, has been dismissed because it has not been obvious what needs to be considered other than deletion and the usual alternatives to deletion that are implied in any deletion discussion. The second, splitting out Drafts for Deletion, has been dismissed because it has not been obvious why drafts need to be considered separately from other miscellany (user pages, WP pages, portals).

However, I have a suggestion that we set up Drafts for Discussion. I am proposing this in response to the reasonable comment that we need some way of discussing whether drafts will survive AFD. So my proposal is in particular that there should be Drafts for Discussion, but that it deal with two almost opposite questions, should a draft be deleted, and should a draft be promoted. Normally the reviewer will either be nominating the draft for deletion, or asking whether the draft should be promoted, and will know which. I can imagine the situation where a draft has been kicking around so long that a reviewer thinks it should be either promoted or deleted, but I am not sure that will happen in the real world. Anyway, the idea is that if a draft is nominated for promotion, there would be rough consensus after seven days either to promote the draft or to keep the draft. If the draft is promoted, then there is rough consensus against deleting, merging, redirecting, or re-draftifying the article.

If there is a reason why this is a bad idea, or why it won't work, please let me know. Otherwise we can discuss the idea for a while here and then take it to Village Pump. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:37, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I think that could be a good idea. Perhaps an even larger benefit would be that it might also be helpful for new reviewers - either by asking about a draft directly, or being able to see real examples of good/bad/borderline drafts and discussion. LittlePuppers (talk) 01:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I just feel there would be too much bureaucracy - if people are unsure about whether to kick something on and let AfD have a consideration then just an informal 2nd opinion request here is better. A whole new set-up seems duplicative. And if a DfD is viable to indicate RC against an AfD that's even more problematic, since it would have less participation, and a range of problems if it did then get submitted to AfD. I'd suggest we encourage more reviewers to seek out 2nd opinions rather than leave it in the pile, but not go full formal on it. Nosebagbear (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Renaming Drafts Before Acting on Them

I will observe that occasionally giving a draft the name that it will have as an article, even if one is planning to decline it, can be useful, because then the AFC script may find that another article existed with that name. I had that experience with Draft:Sarv Webs, and found that, by giving a draft that name, I find that there had been an AFD. This changed my disposition from a decline to a reject. We already knew what the community would say on an AFD.

Another interesting case where the history is found via the names is more positive and that is Draft:Minx. The draft didn't get accepted, but it is the same as Dreamcatcher (group), and the IP has been advised to expand the article.

Robert McClenon (talk) 17:26, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Interesting idea. I guess I've never thought about this because generally if I'm going to accept I would just change the new name appropriately. I don't think it necessarily needs to be added to the official workflow but it's a good thing to keep in mind. Primefac (talk) 18:05, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

If the draft is no good, then the reason to name it is to see whether to reject it rather than to decline it. If the draft is marginal, I have occasionally asked the submitter to obtain a copy of the deleted article so that I can compare the draft against the deleted article. I do not recall that happening, as in I do not recall when the draft has actually been better than the deleted article, but I have found it worth trying, especially since some submitters can be stubborn. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I do that in general. Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 10:59, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Just a quick note

Just a note, I've changed a few of the subtemplates of {{AFC status}} so that if a draft gets submitted with the "wrong" timestamp (usually something old that someone submits without changing the dates) it won't throw off the "danger meter". I will note that {{AfC category navbar}} will continue working as usual, so if you see a single submission in "Very old" even if you don't want to review it, at least bump it to the right submit date. Primefac (talk) 18:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Primefac: but what if I want to be in the Danger Zone? Hasteur (talk) 19:49, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

No doubt there's a highway to get there. Careful, though, or you might find yourself in Jurassic Park. Primefac (talk) 19:58, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Primefac - What is the Danger Zone? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

When there are "very old" submissions (i.e. 6-month-old drafts waiting review) the {{AFC status}} template displays a white "overloaded" message. Primefac (talk) 16:47, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Polygala Stubs

From User:Starzoner. Another of the occasional reminders that we are letting in good encyclopedic content as well as keeping out crud. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

hello, yes I've put some effort into creating good plant stubs. Starzoner (talk) 02:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. I will comment to the other reviewers that I think species with proper taxonomy are one case where we should be not merely accepting stubs but actively welcoming them, because the stubs represent an expansion of knowledge. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

"New" reviewer?

I didn't think RedRiver660 would be able to accept AfC submissions? (Cf. ,,, etc.) ——Serial 08:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

They've been warned before. It's probably time more a more substantive warning, with templates and all. In the future, would it be useful to have a bot to detect every instance of an editor who is not an AfC reviewer accepting/declining articles and then warn that editor not to do so in the future? Sam-2727 (talk) 13:29, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I've said this a few times on my talk page in as many weeks, but unless the user is performing bad (or otherwise sub-standard) reviews, there is nothing prohibiting them from reviewing and/or "accepting" drafts at AFC. If their reviews are fine, invite them to join the Project and get access to AFCH (if only to make things easier). If their reviews are not fine, then I concur that warnings should be left. Primefac (talk) 14:01, 8 June 2020 (UTC) and... I just realized that I was the one that warned them last time... Primefac (talk) 14:04, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Primefac: Just so. This was what prompted me to ask, having, as it has, led to this AfD. So we see that, will the best will in the world, a "noob error" can result in the wasting of the time and energies of multiple reasons for no sound reason. ——Serial 19:09, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

My number one concern would be a "reviewer" accepting COI drafts. My number two concern would be a reviewer with competency issues. Other than that, I agree that welcoming them is the right approach. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:41, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't be concerned if this user is declining/rejecting blatantly unacceptable drafts (e.g. blank, test, adverts). I'd be a bit concerned when one accepts a draft, especially someone with little experience in AFC or deletion (if the user's a regular in AFD then I'm fine with that). Perhaps if an editor who isn't registered as an AFC reviewer and the draft has been previously declined by an AFC reviewer, we can notify the declining reviewer(s) and tell them to have a look? Cheers, Eumat114 formerly TLOM (Message) 11:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@Serial Number 54129: Is the user submitting anything to AFC? If not we might ask for a partial block "namespace ban" from Draft namespace to keep them from messing with the process. Hasteur (talk) 12:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Draft:Adam Schleifer

Will someone please review this draft? I have declined it twice. As a candidate for the United States House of Representatives, he does not satisfy political notability. The previous two declined drafts were largely about this campaign. The draft has now been trimmed down to where it is focused on general notability. My thinking would be to decline it, but maybe I am biased now. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:52, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Non-English

I think that, when 'lang' is specified, the option to recognize a language needs to be tested. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't, and I haven't determined when it does and doesn't work. However, I think that if the script allows the reviewer to enter a language (and it does) and the reviewer does enter a language, the script ought to put that into the template rather than throwing it away and just saying that it isn't English. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:51, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

• Project-Class AfC project pages