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About that second paragraph

I recently got myself into hot water on this topic after clicking through my watchlist and seeing the current second paragraph being warred about. I fell down a rabbit hole, because it all seemed so strange (not merely the content itself, but the behavior around it). There is simply no doubt that this group's multiple media properties and performing arts companies as well as its views on sexuality and sexual identity are content suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. What I found so strange was the way it was insisted this content be included. The second paragraph is a case in point: at least two parts of it are not even accurate 1. (that FLG "administers" the media properties - that's not what the source says; my current read is that the relationship between FLG and these media seems rather more complex), and that 2. Shen Yun contains anti-LBGTQ messages. This is not in the New Yorker article. It says in passing that "apart from the... homophobia," but doesn't actually say where or whether there was homophobia in Shen Yun. This is presumably an error of the source. But even so. Why do not we also include what else she noted in passing, such as Shen Yun's extraordinary use of a gigantic face of Karl Marx in front of a red tide (presumably of blood!) Falun Gong's anti-communist rhetoric appears far more prominent than its opinions about homosexuality, which when I read their press office now they seem not particularly strident about: https://faluninfo.net/misconceptions-intolerant/ (do they lie because they know that discrimination against homosexuality is not tolerated in the West? I am curious to look at some ethnographies). In any case, I found the Karl Marx face just as, if not more striking. So why don't we put that in the second paragraph as well?

Or alternatively, why doesn't the page have a proper discussion of FLG-associated media entities, which includes an accurate representation of the precise nature of the relationship between FLG and the entities, and the other commercial and cultural initiatives?

I would suggest the discussion of these matters largely mirror how other religions are discussed on Misplaced Pages. I presume that the page on Catholicism notes that Catholics run newspapers and media companies (I can think of some, including some which have garnered controversy), the page on Islam notes that Muslims run newspapers (many I could also think of, several quite controversial) and so on. How are these relationships described? I suspect that Falun Gong-associated media entities are relatively more significant for Falun Gong, which is a new... religion... and they serve a function vis-a-vis the Chinese state actions against Falun Gong adherents in China - but I think that would make sense for the general approach. Without any benchmark for the appropriate way for a tertiary source to discuss something like this, what tethers the dispute? Indeed, why not make it the lead, and include Marx, anti-gay, anti-evolution, and every other thing we don't like that is associated with this group? There is a reason for it, and that reason relates to what encyclopedias are for and how they are supposed to read.

In the meantime, the second paragraph as it stands now is an embarrassment. It should just be removed. Put in some placeholder text about FLG adherents founding media and performing arts companies to spread their message, or whatever it may be. There's a way to write about this without either doing propaganda for or against the group, which is the entire point. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 13:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I was just about to create a new section to address this (per above), but will reply here instead.

Editors (who, from what I can tell, never touched this page before this week) continue to add a new second paragraph to this article (most recently here) without attempting to obtain a consensus, and without addressing legitimate concerns that have been raised about this content. As some of those objections have been buried in other threads, I will summarize those objections here, and ask that these objections be resolved before reverting again. Apologies for the repetition.

• A neutral and representative lede section could absolutely include reference to the media/arts organizations established by Falun Gong adherents, particularly the most notable ones, like the Epoch Times and Shen Yun. Scholars tend to situate this as part of a broader claim-making strategy that the Falun Gong community adopted as a response to the suppression in China (refer to Ownby, Penny, Junker, Noakes, et al.), and that seems the appropriate context in which to address this.
• Putting this information into the second paragraph of the article is narratively incongruous, and assigns it undue weight and prominence in the article. The creation of the Epoch Times and Shen Yun, along with other Falun Gong activism, can only be understood in light of Falun Gong's broader history and its suppression in China: these are essentially activities undertaken by members of an exiled diaspora community, as a response to a persecution. Narrative cohesion thus demands that we first introduce the facts of Falun Gong's suppression, and then explain Falun Gong's response, of which these properties are undoubtedly a part. The final paragraph of the lede has historically been the place where Falun Gong's overseas activism is mentioned, and that is where it makes most sense to include a reference to these organizations.
• The statement that Falun Gong "administers" the Epoch Times does not accord with the source. While it is beyond dispute that the Epoch Times was founded by persons who practice Falun Gong, this is not the same as being owned, operated, or administered by Falun Gong itself. There are groups that serve as quasi-official mouthpieces or press offices for Falun Dafa (e.g. the "Falun Dafa Information Center"), but the Epoch Times is not one of them. It should suffice to say that the Epoch Times is an initiative undertaken by adherents of Falun Gong, or that it was founded by Falun Gong practitioners, or similar. Because that much is absolutely clear.
• There's the question of neutrality, including WP:WEIGHT. We need to try to present issues from a neutral point of view. What does that look like? Well, just as we would not heap praise on the Epoch Times in the lede section by, say, noting the journalistic awards it has won, neither should we try to define it by cherry-picking the critical sources that we like. Both approaches serve propagandistic purposes, and run a risk of WP:recentism. The lede section of an article on Falun Gong is simply not the place to hash out arguments about the editorial merits or defects of a newspaper, or to debate its place within a Chinese-language media ecosystem, or whatever else. Remember: our goal is not to induce readers to think well, or poorly, of the Epoch Times.
• With respect to the statement that Shen Yun promotes anti-LGBTQ and anti-evolution messaging, this appears to have very thin support, and furthermore fails WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT. The claim about anti-LGBT messaging is not directly supported in the source; the source contains one passing reference to "homophobia," but the context is ambiguous (e.g. is that a reference to Falun Gong teachings, or to a particular scene in Shen Yun's performance? Not clear). Other editors have noted this concern elsewhere. In any case, this is not a neutral or representative description of Shen Yun, and it certainly doesn't belong in the second paragraph of an article about the faith system of Falun Gong.TheBlueCanoe 14:09, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

These attempts at promoting a sanitized version of the present article grow more strained by the day. There's no worming around or dodging the many, many media sources that have come to regularly report on this stuff since the Falun Gong's involvement in the 2016 US presidential election. Just one recent example, as discussed among many other references in a section of this talk page above:

• Braslow, Samuel. 2020. "Inside the Shadowy World of Shen Yun and Its Secret Pro-Trump Ties". Los Angeles Magazine. March 9, 2020.

Quote:

Among other pronouncements, Li has claimed that aliens started invading human minds in the beginning of the 20th century, leading to mass corruption and the invention of computers. He has also denounced feminism and homosexuality and claimed he can walk through walls and levitate. But the central tenet of the group’s wide-ranging belief system is its fierce opposition to communism.

In 2000, Li founded Epoch Times to disseminate Falun Gong talking points to American readers. Six years later he launched Shen Yun as another vehicle to promote his teachings to mainstream Western audiences. Over the years Shen Yun and Epoch Times, while nominally separate organizations, have operated in tandem in Falun Gong’s ongoing PR campaign against the Chinese government, taking directions from Li.

Relatively unknown before 2016, Epoch Times enjoyed a surge in traffic after the presidential election thanks to stridently pro-Trump content. NBC News reported in 2017 that the site was drawing millions of visitors a year, more than The New York Times and CNN combined. But Falun Gong didn’t restrict its pro-Trump stance to the paper.

The organization and its media extensions are well known for its anti-LGBQT and anti-evolution stances, its promotion of conspiracies, and its funding of extreme-right politics, just to name a few. While it's alarming that this article has gone so long without mentioning what it is today best known for, 'defenses' like the above two demonstrate how this has gone on for so long. (@Fiveby:, @TheBlueCanoe: mentioned you as "other editors" by way of a diff, fwiw) :bloodofox: (talk) 16:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

You have not addressed the issues noted above. There are millions of things that have been written about Falun Gong in reliable sources. In determining what the lede of this article should consist of, we need to consider that material as a whole to determine that the most important, fair, and proportional representations are. You have just alleged that Falun Gong is "best known for" its "funding of extreme-right politics", "promotion of conspiracies" and "anti-LGBQT stances." That is a remarkable and unsupported claim. Perhaps that is what you associate with Falun Gong, but your personal opinions are not clearly reflected in the corpus of scholarly literature. I will ask again: are you willing to engage constructively and in good faith to address these substance of these concerns? TheBlueCanoe 17:40, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Unless you've been living under a rock, you'd be aware that the media coverage of these topics since 2016 has strongly emphasized the connections between Falun Gong, its extensions, and support of extreme right-wing politics and ideology in the US and abroad. It just so happens that Falun Gong extensions have been quite active politically since that time, and, in 2020, the new religious group is certainly most strongly associated with the activities of its extensions, especially The Epoch Times. That isn't likely to change anytime soon. No need to continue to invoke the invisible chorus of "other editors" for "consensus" when we have plenty of quality sources. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Let's tone down the rhetoric, shall we? I would like you to address the questions that I raised. These are all reasonable objections, which you have not addressed.

We can presumably agree, per WP:LEAD, that the lead section should summarize, from a neutral point of view, what the major features of a topic are, and that it should present facts in a manner that is intelligible and with appropriate relative emphasis or WP:WEIGHT. We determine that by surveying the best sources available to use, which in this case would include the books that have been written about Falun Gong, as well other sources such as human rights groups, think tanks, and news agencies. Do you agree? If so, and setting aside even the question of factual accuracy and neutrality, your edit clearly fails to adhere to these requirements. I'll give an example. The topic of organ harvesting from Falun Gong adherents has received substantial, renewed media attention in the last two or three years. Last year an expert tribunal, headed by a famed international jurist, found the Chinese party-state has sanctioned the large-scale killing of Falun Gong adherents for their organs. There are at least three books that deal extensively with this issue, along with several academic journal articles. In short, thousands of pages of reliably sourced material has been written about the issue of organ harvesting from Falun Gong adherents. By contrast, less than one full sentence has been written in a reliable source about Shen Yun's alleged anti-LGBQT messaging (whether the "homophobia" in question was even properly credited to Shen Yun is, as I said, unclear). And yet you have given this more prominence in this article than thousands upon thousands of pages written about organ harvesting. You have edit warred to enforce your position, over the justified objections of other editors. This is just such bizarre behaviour.TheBlueCanoe 18:52, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

We can mention organ harvesting in the lede and emphasize repression in China more, but thats not an argument to exclude the other stuff... Including their undisputed control over the Epoch Times and Shen Yun and the fact that Shen Yun’s messaging is at times extremely homophobic. Denying basic facts of reality like those is to me much more bizarre behaviour. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:06, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous, please stop trying to use wikipedia to push the agenda/view of your organization. WP:NOTHERE conduct like this will not be tolerated much longer. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, I'm inclining more and more to take this to ArbCom.

In the mean time, you may want to dial back the unsupported talk page claims and ad hominem. TheBlueCanoe 17:53, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

That'd be more productive activity than your daily attemptd to scrub the article, and may well get more editors to help in improving the article. It currently reads largely as a promotional piece composed by the organization and needs a lot of work to get it into a neutral state. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

To me it still looks like the concerns User:BlueCanoe raised above have not been addressed by editors who have taken the initiative to rewrite the article. While I don't question that the rewriters have legitimate concerns, we're not really seeing any discussion over the relative weight of the newly proposed sources. The editors seem particularly favorable toward progressive (leftist) descriptions of the movement; for example, Jia Tolentino of the New Yorker Magazine is former Deputy Editor of Jezebel, which has been ranked just a half notch to the right from extreme left by mediabiasfactcheck.com . Similar political orientation, to a lesser degree, has been recognized in the New Yorker , MSNBC , NBC News , and others. My personal political leanings don't matter, but I'm a classical liberal, and therefore this really caught my eye.

Note that I am not claiming that these sources somehow fail WP:RS. They don't. In my view, these viewpoints should be presented fairly and honestly. It is their due weight in relation to other sources (or, if you prefer, the due weight of other sources in relation to them) that should be discussed on the talk page. There is no legitimate basis for constructing a narrative that mostly omits non-progressive media outlets and peer-reviewed academic publications, or tries to manufacture an impression of a consensus based on a cherry-picked selection of reliable sources. Per Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources and undue weight, "just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements." I am not suggesting that I have the answers, and I probably don't need to keep repeating that I have refrained from both editing and reverting. What I'm saying is that these matters need to be hashed out very carefully. (This is even more the case since we all know the movement is actively persecuted by a party that (nominally) identifies as extreme left and has a fair amount of leverage in the West as well.)

This applies equally to those who would prefer to have the article read like a Falun Gong puff piece, and those who believe that Reality has a well known liberal bias. And even if you don't agree with all of Larry Sanger's points (I don't), I think it's evident that we're dealing with an interpretation of WP:NPOV that is fundamentally opposed to giving due weight to WP:RS, and instead seeks to construct a narrative based on certain ontological and epistemological presuppositions, such as secular materialism. I repeat once again my previous comment: this does not look like encyclopedia-building. Rather, it has started to look more and more like a struggle for definitional power. And as much as I agree with his point about the NRM label, I regret to say that User:Bloodofox seems to be spearheading these efforts without too much concern for addressing all the legitimate concerns that User:BlueCanoe has recently put forward. Bstephens393 (talk) 22:10, 24 May 2020 (UTC) Bstephens393 (talk) 22:10, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Resorting to a strategy of attacking the credibility of a journalist at The New Yorker, the experts she interviews, and, ahem, "liberals" will take this conversation exactly nowhere. This particular journalist is literally one of thousands writing about this topic. None of this is any secret now. Take those attacks on coverage by The New Yorker to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and see how that works out for you, otherwise you are wasting your time and mine. While you're at it, if one glance at this ad-covered amateur site didn't indicate to you that it is an obvious WP:RS fail, then this thread at RSN will help. This coverage from the The New Yorker is very firmly in compliance with WP:RS.

Additionally, the new religious movement discussion is gone and over—there are simply far, far too many high-quality sources that flatly refer to the organization as a new religious movement over the past few decades. No attempt at mudying the waters is going to make that fact any less clear.

The article is certainly currently composed as a puff piece, avoiding mention of the extensive political and financial involvements of the organization and its extensions beyond the second paragraph, which the editor you're often chiming in to support attempts to remove daily. These daily attempts at scrubbing the article of mention for what the organization is today best known are not serving the reader. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:49, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Then address the concerns, discuss the relative weight of the sources in relation to others, seek to build bridges, consider others' viewpoints, and present your case constructively and in good faith. I did not make any complaints about WP:RS here, which you should be able to see just by rereading my comment above. The question is about the relative weight of various reliable sources and what is considered a fair and accurate description based on all the available WP:RS. I understand that you prefer action over discussion, but you seem to be extremely dismissive of anybody who disagrees with your Archimedean point. Be a discussant, not an activist. Bstephens393 (talk) 23:10, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Please notify me when you open that RSN thread about The New Yorker, mediabiasfactcheck.com, and "liberals". :bloodofox: (talk) 23:12, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Why would I open a RSN thread when I have never complained about the reliability of a source? Are you saying that, for example, these characterizations have nothing to do with reality, either? Do you think all reliable sources are required to be politically "neutral"? Or did you experience some cognitive dissonance and did not even want to consider the point I was making? I'm at a loss for words here. Bstephens393 (talk) 23:22, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

The community college course link you've provided, which contains a graphic from allsides.com that places, for example, Jacobin and MSNBC in the same "left" political bracket and says that mediabiasfactcheck.com "is listed WITH SERIOUS RESERVATIONS", is (while humorous) irrelevant here. Here's a direct link to RSN, where such discussion would be far more appropriate. :bloodofox: (talk) 23:36, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Obviously the granularity of that graphic is coarse, but that does not refute my essential point: there is a correlation between the sources you deem the most pertinent and their positioning in several appraisals of their political leanings (not reliability). Your comments are based on the assumption that we're discussing the WP:RS policy, but we're not. Or at least I am not. Just to make it clear: we're not in disagreement about that policy. What we seem to disagree about is the proper (and, in the case of a controversial article, mandated) procedure for discussing the due and relative weight of a very large corpus of peer-reviewed academic literature about the subject matter, as well as a very large corpus of WP:RS newspaper articles. This is what needs our full focus, and it involves good faith and a willingness to treat fellow editors as peers, not as subordinates. Let's all just keep WP:Five pillars in mind, shall we? Bstephens393 (talk) 00:00, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Eh, just coming back to this. So what is the actual reason for the second paragraph, as it stands now? It's still not clear to me. It seems clear that these forms of activism are an important part of the Falun Gong experience, but the inclusion of the anti-evolution thing here is bizarre (not only the content), and it's still not clear why it's all meant to go in the lead?? Why not say that Cate Blanchette watched the performance (just to pick a random pro-Falun talking point for argument's sake)? What is the point of all this?

I think an important question is whether or not the media and other organizations are actually administered centrally by the Falun Gong. From what I can tell so far, technically there is no such thing as a central Falun Gong organization, but I'm happy to be corrected. This would make relationship between these entities and this page a bit more complex.

I am getting quite curious about all this. For the editors who have more experience on the topic, apart from the fairly sensational media articles that keep getting quoted, what should I read and what scholars should I look at? I have done some drive-by stuff on this page from time to time, and my main interests lie elsewhere, but the acrimony has piqued my interest. It obviously does not seem a matter of reliable sources alone? Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I’ve never seen a WP:RS say that Falun Gong doesn't have a central administrative structure, that argument seem to be made entirely by Falun Gong followers. Why would a religious group with no central administrative structure make a palatial compound in upstate New York to house its administrative structure... Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:09, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm beginning to suspect that your reading of the academic literature on Falun Gong is extremely thin. That Falun Gong has a diffuse, horizontal network structure, rather than a centralized and hierarchical administration, is very well established by the scholarly sources who have conducted the relevant field work and research. This doesn't mean there is no organization at all, but that it is deliberately weak "as a point of doctrinal significant," as one source put it. No system of membership, no tithing, no direct intervention in the lives of followers, no clergy or ranks, none of that. This is all in peer-reviewed and academic sources.TheBlueCanoe 14:27, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• Just a comment about the homophobia point: it’s not solely restricted to a passing mention in the New Yorker. For instance,

  Falun Gong has moralistic, socially conservative beliefs, preaching against homosexuality and sex out of wedlock.
  — The Guardian

  Among them, Li has railed against what he called the wickedness of homosexuality, feminism and popular music while holding that he is a god-like figure who can levitate and walk through walls. Hurley, who wrote for The Epoch Times until he left in 2013, said he saw practitioners in leadership positions begin drawing harder and harder lines about acceptable political positions.
  “Their views were always anti-abortion and homophobic, but there was more room for disagreements in the early days,” he said.
  — NBC News

  Ma, who faced intense pressure from the city's Chinese community not to vote for the resolution, also came under attack because of Falun Gong's antigay teachings
  — Bay Area Reporter

  — MarkH₂₁ 15:56, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

All are references to the conservative sexual morality of Falun Gong, but not to Shen Yun. The New Yorker reporter appears to have conflated the two things as well.

As a curious aside, it's fascinating how much importance these left-wing outlets assign to teachings on sexuality, given the relative lack of importance accorded to it in Falun Gong's own precepts, and the non-existent place in Falun Gong advocacy. That a Chinese Buddhist faith system would have conservative values around sexuality is...not that shocking, honestly.TheBlueCanoe 14:27, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Its inappropriate to say that the reporter for a WP:RS is conflating the two when obviously they aren’t, the Shen Yun performance they attended was homophobic... End of story. If you would like to take this to RSN please do, otherwise drop the stick Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

The Last Paragraph of the Lead Section

@Horse Eye Jack: canceled a lot well sourced materials without a reasonable explanation, I have the following questions for you:

• You said "That doesnt reflect the talk page discussion". but on this talk page, if you check, you can find a few users noted on talk page that for the sentences starting with “Falun Gong administers a variety of extensions in the United States and abroad…” are not covered. I checked and found these notes are true. If you disagree, please quote the words from the sources showing sentences with the same or a similar meaning. I also found another line in the same paragraph “The new religious movement also operates Shen Yun” is not covered in the sources. if you can find similar lines supporting this statement, please quote them here. Otherwise, please do not add back not supported materials.
• The contents from the sources including Newsweekly, ABC AUS, MSNBC, SF Chronicle, Forbes, SF Gates, WSJ, etc, seem to be reliable. they should not be deleted. Precious Stone 18:54, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

"If you disagree, please quote the words from the sources showing sentences with the same or a similar meaning” I already did as did others, stop WP:beating a dead horse. Adding sources and information to the lead which are not in the text of the article is inappropriate, no matter what the source is (you also appear to be misusing those sources, but thats a separate issue). Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:23, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

i just ctrl+F your name on this page, cannot find any related quotes, could you please copy to this section of the talk page. i doubt it exists, as i checked the sources.

now you are saying "Adding sources and information to the lead which are not in the text of the article is inappropriate" the sources 20-25 in this lead section seem to have been added in recent weeks. you added them as well?

i provided quotes from the sources. you can compare the quotes from the contents. nothing misused there. Precious Stone 19:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The text you seek to add is riddles with spelling and grammar errors, please don’t vandalize the lead like that. Its also not appropriate to say that Shen Yun isn’t a part of FG when that contradicts the sources given. You knew you did not have consensus for this edit, why did you make it again? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You are welcome to correct any spelling or grammar errors. Your other accusation has no ground. I never said shen yun isn't a part of FG. On the contrary, I specified FG followers formed Shen Yun in 2006 by providing source and citing the related lines from the source. You have never provided any citing to support the claim “The new religious movement also operates Shen Yun”, nor to the lines “Falun Gong administers a variety of extensions in the United States and abroad…” Yesterday you claimed “I already did as did others“. This is simply not true. Nobody did that. In fact, there is nothing like these lines in the sources. You are adding WP:OR to the article. A few spelling errors cannot be called vandalizing, but adding WP:OR content and lied about it could be vandalizing the lead page, and so could the deleting a lot of RS. Precious Stone 18:45, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

What OR content have I added? Shen Yun is based out of the headquarters of FG in upstate New York btw and is part of FG , thats well covered by the sources in the article. From NBC "The Epoch Media Group, along with Shen Yun, a dance troupe known for its ubiquitous advertising and unsettling performances, make up the outreach effort of Falun Gong, a relatively new spiritual practice that combines ancient Chinese meditative exercises, mysticism and often ultraconservative cultural worldviews.” Horse Eye Jack (talk) 19:00, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

The WP:OR contents you added were at least the line “The new religious movement also operates Shen Yun”, and the line starting with “Falun Gong administers a variety of extensions in the United States and abroad…”.

I have asked you about source evidences of these lines for 2 times, as per WP:V. You never provided them, and falsely claimed that you and others did.

Once again, I already told you I never said “shen yun isn't a part of FG. On the contrary, I specified FG followers formed Shen Yun in 2006 by providing source and citing the related lines from the source“. btw, your Business Insider source said Chinese experts view Shen Yun as part of falun gong's elaborate and well-put together public relation plan. That is different with your words.

Your NBC source considered this group as outreach effort of falun gong. Both Business Insider and NBC source have quite different meanings with the two lines we are talking about.

You are welcome to change the two OR lines with similar meanings from these two sources. other sources, like the NYT, if they did not touch this area, they should not be used to support the claims. In addition, you should add back the well sourced other materials. Precious Stone 20:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Your response is incomprehensible, do you think you can boil it down to a single line? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 21:26, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

i just put them into separate paragraphs. Please review them again. The main point is that your cited contents from the two sources do not support your edit on the article page. Precious Stone 21:40, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

You appear to have missed "Shen Yun rehearses at the compound when it isn't touring cities including London, Los Angeles, New York, and Washington.” among other things in that article. Sources have now been repeatedly provided for those statements and they are to be found in the body of the article. The NBC piece seems to *exactly* match the contentions made about both, they aren’t just founded by followers they are part of the religion. I won’t be adding the rest of the material, its due perhaps a line or two more but lets save the paragraphs for the body. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 22:11, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Again, your cited words "Shen Yun rehearses at the compound when it isn't touring cities including London, Los Angeles, New York, and Washington.” have nothing to do with the two lines we are talking about.

The NBC piece does not match the two lines at all, as I have discussed above.

In the body of the articles, i also did not see anything like these two lines either.

You can add anything mentioned in the sources, but you are not suppose to add original research. Any one is not allowed to misrepresent a source for promoting one's own narrative in Misplaced Pages.Precious Stone 22:55, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

I would characterize this debate as follows: User:Horse Eye Jack is inferring from the source, and User:Precious Stone is calling that WP:OR. I agree that we can't assume that the source implies something that is not explicitly stated. Bstephens393 (talk) 05:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand, Marvin 2009 is proposing significant changes to the lead and calling the status quo WP:OR. I have made no independent edits just a revert, however the original wording is supported by the reliable sources we have. If other users feel we need to flesh that out more in the body I think we could definitely add a few paragraphs in addition to the scattered sentences we have now. We certainly have the sources. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 06:04, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

User:Bstephens393's is right on. Yes, what happening here is "User:Horse Eye Jack is inferring from the source." which is against the statement from WP:SYNTHESIS:

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research performed by an editor here.

According to the editing history, yes, User:Horse Eye Jack did not add those original research at the first place, but when others tried to fix the errors, User:Horse Eye Jack defended them in use of many false statements, as shown below

• 1 when I asked source evidences of these lines, as per WP:V. User:Horse Eye Jack did not provide, but falsely claimed that he and others did.
• 2 when I continued to ask about the supporting sources for the two lines, User:Horse Eye Jack provided a line from one source: "Shen Yun rehearses at the compound when it isn't touring cities including London, Los Angeles, New York, and Washington.” However, this has nothing to do with the two lines we are talking about.
• 3 User:Horse Eye Jack's claim "Sources have now been repeatedly provided for those statements and they are to be found in the body of the article. " is entirely false as well.
• 4 User:Horse Eye Jack's claim "The NBC piece seems to *exactly* match the contentions made about both" is not true either. You may go ahead to exactly cite these a few words from this NBC source (or describe the same meaning in use of your own words) for replacing the two original research lines. But you should not infer from the source, as per WP:SYNTHESIS. Plus, other 5 sources cannot be misused for supporting these two lines.
• 5 User:Horse Eye Jack's claim " the original wording is supported by the reliable sources we have. If other users feel we need to flesh that out more in the body I think we could definitely add a few paragraphs in addition to the scattered sentences we have now. We certainly have the sources." First, there is no source among the provided 6 sources that support those two lines. Secondly, now are you acknowledging your earlier claim "they are to be found in the body of the article" is false? If you believe those contents already exist in the body, why do you think you need add more. In fact, they do not exist in the body either.

In conclusion, there is no supporting materials from the provided sources for those two lines. The king does not wear clothes :) Precious Stone 13:26, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

You need to wait to have consensus before making your edit. I have reverted you. Your arguments are bleeding into WP:PA and your assertions are incorrect. Please WP:AGF and respect WP:CIVILITY. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I moved the citations around, it now more than satisfies WP:BURDEN. As such my work here is done. You however still need to get consensus for each individual change you wish to make, you will need to provide an explanation of each change you intend to make to the article. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

You said “I moved the citations around, it now more than satisfies WP:BURDEN.” Please be aware that your edit made a source used for the same line twice. This cannot satisfied WP:BURDEN at all. Plus, none of the sources support the content.

I have explained each edit I recently did on the page in great details. You failed to provide any constructive argument, except for those false statements I listed above.

To list one’s own untruthful words is not a kind of WP:PA. It was to seek your further explanation.

It is good that you remember we should follow WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY, however, they are not manifested in each revert you recently did. I said you may add any sourced content you would like to add and you should not keep those WP:OR. This was to respect WP:NOR, WP:AGF and WP:CIVILITY.

You also remove many reliable sources. This is against WP:NPOV.

When those WP:OR lines were recently added at the first place. You did not ask for any discussion or consensus. Now when I provided reliable source to fix errors, I did provide detailed reason for each edit, and discussed with you here. It is clear that those WP:OR words have no source to support. Precious Stone 17:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

"The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.” I have satisfied that condition. Where did you provide explanations for your individual edits? Also its not OR... And looking at the edit history I don’t think it ever was, these appear to be very basic and reasonable descriptions of available reliable sources. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

nope, you did not, since your statements were false (as listed above one by one) and your cited lines from the sources are quite far from the two lines. For the reliable sources i added in, i often quoted the lines from the sources, so any one can easily compare the quotes with actually added contents. You failed to provide any quote from the sources that support those lines.Precious Stone 18:29, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

This is a comically bad edit, with a clear agenda to portray the group as harmless victims, while downplaying and obfuscating the new religious movement's close involvement with far-right politics and conspiracy theory mongering via its media extensions. We have multiple sources that outright refer to these extensions, particularly Shen Yun as, for example, propaganda. Attempting to obfuscate and hide activity from an organization like this on Misplaced Pages is a lost cause: Misplaced Pages isn't censored. :bloodofox: (talk) 19:16, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

As i noted below you provided 3 sources NYT, New Republic, and NBC for the extreme-right claim. NYT and NBC actually did not say so, only mention the word right-wing. you scolded me "with a clear agenda to portray the group as harmless victims, while downplaying and obfuscating the new religious movement's close involvement with far-right politics and conspiracy theory mongering via its media extensions. " this is false. The conspiracy theory claim was supported by the sources, so i did not touch it at all. For the extreme-right claim, it was not claimed by NYT and NBC. I made clear that NYT and NBC said righ-wing based on these two sources. It seems that someone has a clear agenda to portray the group as extreme-right by misrepresenting NYT and NBC sources. This is against WP:NOR, WP:SOAP. etc. Precious Stone 22:10, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

There are no shortage of sources on these topics. A handful of them are plastered all over this talk page. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

With respect to WP:BURDEN, a reminder that the lede section was very stable for years. It was substantially altered by Bloodofox beginning a few weeks ago. Legitimate concerns were raised regarding Bloodofox's edits with respect to WP:LEAD, WP:V, and WP:NPOV, including WP:WEIGHT. These concerns have been repeatedly raised, and never addressed. Instead, users have edit warred to enforce their preferred version, and repeatedly accused other editors of acting in bad faith. This is not a platform for activism, and it is not a battleground. The recent additions, which you folks appear to have been warring over, has the same problems as Bloodofox's earlier, contested additions, and I have reverted. TheBlueCanoe 21:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

These "concerns" that were "repeatedly raised" were done so by a bunch of single-issue editors and new editors who just happened to be aggressively pushing for a lack of inclusion of media coverage since 2016. This particular editor parrots these talking points has been pushing hard to scrub the article. Again, Misplaced Pages isn't censored, and attempts at hiding media coverage since 2016 will get you nowhere. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:05, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

In response to

There are no shortage of sources on these topics. A handful of them are plastered all over this talk page. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Let me say again that the 6 sources User:Bloodofox provided do not support the contents being added in. User:Bloodofox also deleted a lot of reliable sources that are not serving an activist’s narrative. I am listing them below:

• http://newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=56301%7Carchive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20140223153614/http://newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=56301
• https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-21/what-is-the-falun-gong-movement-and-does-china-harvest-organs/9679690
• https://freedomhouse.org/report/2017/battle-china-spirit-falun-gong-religious-freedom
• https://web.archive.org/web/20140223153614/http://newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=56301
• https://www.forbes.com/sites/ewelinaochab/2019/06/17/the-china-tribunal-pronounced-its-verdict-on-organ-harvesting-in-china/
• http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3340868/ns/world_news/t/falun-gong-thrives-us/ Precious Stone 23:27, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

"Extreme-right"

In the lead, The Epoch Times is described as promoting extreme-right politics. There are 3 sources provided: NYT, New Republic, and NBC. I checked these 3 articles one by one and found that both NYT and NBC mentioned "right-wing", only New Republic mentioned ET has in common with "extreme right-wing". I feel it is not a good idea to mislead that NYT and NBC associated the ET with extreme-right, so we should make it clear. The notability of New Republic is not as good as NYT and NBC, I suggest we move this reference to somewhere in the body. Precious Stone 14:57, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I would be wary of using language like "extreme right-wing," particularly when the label is applied by sources that are quite far to the left, where perceptions of what constitutes "extreme" are....rather strained. Support for Trump is not evidence of "extreme" right-wing tendencies. TheBlueCanoe 21:51, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Let the record show that the above editor just referred to The New York Times, The New Republic, and NBC News as "quite far left". Funny stuff, and much in line with the user's frequent attempts at scrubbing the article. :bloodofox: (talk) 22:21, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that the discussion and edit warring going on here is quite dismal. The point is not "scrubbing" content, or constantly emphasizing that "look, they're RS." The point relates to WP:DUE and what constitutes a neutral, informative, encyclopedic treatment of this issue. The material can be presented in a neutral tone, with proper context, and perhaps a clearer delineation of the actual relationship between the entities in question. This stuff is in scholarship I have been looking at, and we don't need to rely on reporters pursuing a story against a competitor to tell us about the organizational structure of Falun Gong. For that, we look at the research of those who have lived among Falun Gong for years and wrote ethnographic studies on it. That is how this stuff should work.

It's also my observation (as a drive-by editor/commenter on this page) that there was hardly any genuine attempt to build a consensus on how to properly present this material. The favored presentation was repeatedly added, discussion was called censorship, and now here we are. I think it's better to simply edit the content to make it better and more neutral than remove it, however. That is not helpful. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 15:01, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

"reporters pursuing a story against a competitor"—what are you talking about? :bloodofox: (talk) 17:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Citation typo

There seems to be a typo causing citation text to show up in the main article. In the Persecution section, Causes subsection, paragraph 3, there is nonsense at the end ",.ref name="ReidG">Reid, Graham (29 April–5 May 2006) "Nothing left to lose" Archived 30 September 2007 at the Wayback Machine, New Zealand Listener. Retrieved 6 July 2006.</ref>". I would fix it myself, but I don't have edit permissions. Astropiloto (talk) 20:15, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

@Astropiloto:  Done thanks! — MarkH₂₁ 20:30, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Suggesting for editing this contentious topic and getting on the 'same page'

In the current set of edits that were just made (and reverted) and in the ongoing discussions above, there are multiple open 'lines' of discussion and disagreement. I suggest that these been broken up and discussed separately, in multiple threads simultaneously. For example, one section could be about the lead. Discuss only what should be in the lead paragraph on the FLG's* involvement in media etc. Another section is about the section in the article where these issues are hashed out. And when editing, I suggest NUMBER YOUR EDITS and write a corresponding number on the page, so //that actual edit// can be discussed. It is completely unproductive and pointless to do reverts which are going to include like 20 contentious things. Break each of the contentious things up into 20 (or whatever) separate disputes, and hammer each one out, in the section which it corresponds to.

For example, maybe someone objects to the block excerpt from NBC because it's simply a WP:DUE issue; or objects to the point about the precise financial relationship between "Falun Gong" and those media companies being unclear (when, according to these scholarly works, it's actually quite clear); or objects to whatever else. Edit it as you see appropriate (delete, refactor, find a better source), NUMBER IT, start a discussion ABOUT THAT EDIT. Then the editing and discussion can be dynamic, multi-threaded, and consensus reached on each point of dispute separately.

I don't know if this is standard practice, and if anyone has a better idea, please suggest it, but that is how I propose we proceed. Please let me know if this suggestion is not clear.

*well, the article is not going to put it vaguely like that: "the FLG" is a shorthand we use. In most cases we would specify if it's "the teachings of FLG," or "people who practice FLG," or "an organization founded and primarily staffed by people who practice FLG," or whatever it may be. This is not a single organizational structure, but a practice spread across the world, where the individuals who practice it do things in order to gain social recognition (and in their religious goals, "saving people," if I have the terminology correct.) And yes, I have been reading David Ownby's book and three dissertations by anthropologists which we should be citing. Cleopatran Apocalypse (talk) 15:24, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I get that there's an effort by adherents to paint Falun Gong as an 'ancient and international spiritual practice' rather than a new religious movement centered on Li Hongzhi that operates out of a secretive compound in Deerpark, New York. However, as numerous media sources make abundantly clear, the organization is also quite politically involved, and there will be no scrubbing this from the article because Misplaced Pages isn't censored. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

"This is not a single organizational structure, but a practice spread across the world, where the individuals who practice it do things in order to gain social recognition (and in their religious goals, "saving people," if I have the terminology correct.)” Yeah, that describes almost every single religion on earth... FG isn’t special or unique, we treat them like any other New Religious Movement. I see no disagreement among non-SPA editors btw so I’m not convinced there are any real content disputes here. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 18:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Can someone suggest a focus for an RfC?

I think this would help deal with the issues and bring in editors who haven't been involved with the article, but I don't have time to do it. It needs to be done in strict accordance with WP:RfC. Doug Weller talk 08:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what an RfC is gonna solve, the problem isn't lack of new faces its a lack of new faces who stick around under assault from the “regulars” here, anyone who disagrees is labeled an “activist” and threatened with ARBCON . I would have left this page as quickly as I came a month or so ago if my normal reaction to being hit wasn’t to hit back 2x as hard, the abuse you have to put up with to contribute here is more than any wikipedia editor should ever have to endure.

I’d support an ANI for BlueCanoe and Marvin 2009. Both seem to have spent the last decade being disruptive on FG related articles, Marvin’s first edits more than a decade ago were promotional edits for New Tang Dynasty Television and more than a decade later they’re still barely strayed beyond FG related pages. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 16:39, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

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