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:::::::Any reason why the act first then reverse plan is better than the wait and see plan? Does Misplaced Pages have a policy/guideline that says it's better to and than reverse rather than wait and see? So far it seems about half the editors here, many experienced, feel it's better to wait. ] (]) 19:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
:::::::Any reason why the act first then reverse plan is better than the wait and see plan? Does Misplaced Pages have a policy/guideline that says it's better to and than reverse rather than wait and see? So far it seems about half the editors here, many experienced, feel it's better to wait. ] (]) 19:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
::::::::Wait for what, exactly? There's no realistic outcome where Bannon's arrest ''won't'' end up being a significant part of his biography. (I mean, at least as significant as his role in Biosphere 2, which appears in the lead). ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 19:18, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
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Volunteer Marek, please follow BRD rather than reverting with an insufficient justification. The material was removed from the lead for more than just violating BLPCRIME. It is also UNDUE. While the arrest might be significant in the end (if a conviction stands) it also might prove to be noting more than an political prosecution that gets thrown out in the end. We can't tell and guessing is WP:CRYSTAL. The lead is meant to be a summary of the article. The arrest section of the lead was about the same length as the arrest section in the article body. That gives the event which is RECENT UNDUE weight in the lead. The material was recently added by one editor, I have challenged it. Even with your opinion that it should stay in the lead we don't have consensus for inclusion. For these reasons please self revert. Springee (talk) 14:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
No. Bannon’s arrest ic clearly due as he is/was a major player in Trump campaign and administration. Trying to pretend that this is something minor is disingenuous. And once again you invoke BLPCRIME in a manner which misrepresents it. You’ve tried doing this before, it’s been pointed out to you that it doesn’t say what you claim it says, so why are you doing it again? Volunteer Marek 14:47, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Sorry no, the length of the arrest content in the body is very short. Right now you have nothing more than your opinion that this arrest, of which we know virtually nothing, is one of the most significant things about Bannon's rather long and politically involved story. The article lead is not a news feed. Per RECENT we have no idea if this arrest will amount to the end of Bannon's public life and jail time (clearly should be in the lead) or if this is nothing more than a political stunt where charges will get dropped the moment they get before a judge. Since we can't know what the long term impact is we can't judge if this passes the 10YEARTEST. Springee (talk) 15:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Yes, this belongs in the lead. A federal indictment for scamming hundreds of thousands of gullible donors by a WP:WELLKNOWN person is a highly significant event in the subject's life. The close connection with Trump, who is habitual liar and whose organizations have been shut down because of fraud and mishandling of charitable funds makes this especially significant. - MrX 🖋15:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Include. You really should re-read WP:BLPCRIME if you think it precludes us from noting Bannon's arrest in the article's lead. Your interpretation of WP:DUE and WP:CRYSTAL are just as wrong. He has been arrested. That's a fact, not some fringe theory or something that may happen in the future. -- Calidum15:47, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Per MOS lead this content is not due for the lead. We have 2 sentences in the body and one in the lead. Regardless, I've raised the issue at BLPN. Springee (talk) 16:18, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
this, it also might prove to be noting more than an political prosecution that gets thrown out in the end. is nonsense and it's irrelevant to your best argument, which you've raised at BLPN. SPECIFICOtalk16:25, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
No, I didn't. I asked Masem for specific policy guidance. I didn't not ask Masem to weigh in on this discussion. Please avoid making bad faith accusations like forum shopping. Springee (talk) 16:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I do not think this should be in the lead. NOTNEWS and all that. Even if you add more sources and text, it is still undue compared to the rest of the article, which is yuge. I am very, very wary of including those new events to the lead, and we should all be, per the BLP. Drmies (talk) 16:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, Drmies, I disagree. The arrest of a former White House official is a big deal, and should be (minimally) mentioned in the lede. There is no BLP issue, in my view - BLP is not intended to prevent all negative events from being included in an article, not is DUE an issue. This isn't a ticket for jaywalking or a citation for not wearing a mask, it's a major allegation of fraud, and as long as it's presented like that -- as an allegation -- there should be no policy violation. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Beyond My Ken, at the very least it is undue, the material in the lead being almost as long as the material in the body. Second, that it is "a big deal" is a matter of a. reliable sources over time, and that's hard to judge since all this happened today, and b. a matter of editorial judgment. The BLP is not intended to keep negative things out of the article, and I have no intention of keeping it out of the article. Drmies (talk) 17:34, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
It's funny, I used the same argument about this not being like jaywalking on BLPN. A federal grand jury does not issue an indictment without hearing evidence. - MrX 🖋17:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
MrX, you should be very wary of reverting editors and telling them "see talk page" when they have just commented on the talk page. I am not going to revert you, but I would like for you to know that I am an administrator with some experience in BLP areas, and I don't cry BLP lightly. You have NO consensus here for your edit. I think it behooves you to revert yourself. What is the rush anyway? Drmies (talk) 16:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Discussion is of course ongoing, but I wouldn't say that -- at this point -- there is no consensus for inclusion, especially when you factor in the number of editors who have shown by their editing that they favor inclusion, even though they haven't commented here. I'd say that the comments are slightly in favor of inclusion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:50, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
@Drmies: No need to sound so ominous, but you really should not have removed the material given the discussion so far. By the way, I have a lot of experience with BLP areas too, having written more than a handful of them and having edited several hundred (or maybe thousands?) of them. By the way, WP:NOTNEWS is for keeping routine news out of the encyclopedia (yet we commonly update sports stats and music charting in near real time). This isn't that. - MrX 🖋16:55, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
MrX, whether something falls under NOTNEWS is often a matter of time. But your first argument bites itself on the ass: you should not have included the material given the discussion so far, certainly not since this is a BLP. Surely you have learned, after editing all those articles, all those BLPs, all those items in AP territory, that in BLPs one should exercise caution. I'm sorry, but I am a bit baffled by your lackadaisical attitude toward the BLP here. Drmies (talk) 17:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Drmies, I don't quite understand what you mean by "NOTNEWS is often a matter of time". I can certainly show examples to back up my assertion that NOTNEWS does not apply to news that is deemed to be encyclopedic, and that we don't embargo content before people have a chance to watch it on their DVRs or in the movie theaters. There is nothing particularly contentious about including the extraordinary occurrence of a WP:WELLKNOWN biography subject being federally indicted. Yeah, if we wrote two paragraphs about it in the lead, that would be WP:UNDUE, but a brief few words does not harm the subject in comparison with the extensive reporting that has already occurred around the world. It's not out of proportion with the other significant milestones in his life. - MrX 🖋17:43, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
And Activist, even with all this going on, you chose to expand the material in the lead? For real? Neutrality, I appreciate the work you've done on the body of the article; I think it would be good if you honored your user name by removing the contentious material from the lead. I really do not want to cry BLP too loudly, or take this elsewhere, but I'm miffed by the callousness of some editors here. Bannon may be today's favorite liberal punching bag, but the article Steve Bannon needs to adhere to our guidelines. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:32, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think it's wise to politicize a content dispute. I think we need to respect that editors can have different interpretations of WP:BLP that are equally valid. - MrX 🖋17:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I agree that Activist's addition was way too much in the lead section — perhaps in the body, but maybe not even that (isn't Phoenix New Times an alt-weekly)? As for the mention of the arrest in the lead, I do favor it eventually, but MrX, what about this proposed compromise: we could remove it until Bannon enters a plea, and then add both the indictment and the denial in the lead? From a BLP perspective when dealing with pending cases, I think "Bannon was indicted on X charges; he has pleaded not guilty" is far preferable then just "Bannon was indicated on X charges." Neutrality17:39, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
@Neutrality: I'm a big fan of compromises that settle content disputes, but I'm not convinced that we serve readers by waiting to give them a proper summary of the article—one that stands on its own. Of course he's going to plead not guilty. We don't need a time machine to know that. I do support keeping the material in the lead very short: "In 2020, Bannon was indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of money laundering and fraud." - MrX 🖋17:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Meh. this is a 160k article and we seem to have hurredly cobbled together three sentences in the body (literally 146 vs. 40 words) so we can justify putting this in the lead. Why does this need to be in the lead? Because it's important! Why is it important? Because it just happened today right now! Soo... It's news? No it's just something very important because it just happened right now! Is that why we spend almost 700 words in the body on everything he did from 1990 to 2016 and also gave that one sentence in the lead?
So you're saying that a "federal indictment" is "not important" event in a person's life? For a political activist? The current president's former campaign manager? You think it's "only important because it just happened"? ??? ??? ??? Volunteer Marek 21:24, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
No. What I have said in fairly explicit satirical detail is that there is no measure of importance in the lead other than proportionality to the body. As a general rule, I do not espouse an editorial standard if I cannot apply it in a way that is agnostic to the subject. GMG00:24, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
WP:ONUS applies here. Until there is solid consensus for inclusion, it stays out. I suggest we wait until more details are available before we include in the lead. There is no deadline, and we are NOTNEWS. Mr Ernie (talk) 19:10, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
At this point in time, it doesn't belong in the lead. An indictment is still just an accusation and in the US, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Let it incubate. Talk📧21:25, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Of course, but indictments can be notable in their own right. Notability shouldn't be confused with legal principles of guilt; those are two very different things. In fact, WP:BLP is explicitly clear about that. My personal view, as stated on the BLP noticeboard, is that Bannon's arrest and criminal charges are highly likely to remain a key part of his biography regardless of the ultimate legal outcome. (After all, if the case falls apart and he's acquitted—or if Trump pressures the DOJ to drop charges against him—then that would be just as notable of an outcome as if he is ultimately convicted.) Since we know that this item is very likely to remain a notable and relevant aspect of Bannon's biography, it should be at least briefly mentioned in the lead, in accordance with WP:LEAD. MastCell17:21, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Isn't that a CRYSTAL argument? Let's suppose this case is dismissed tomorrow as a matter of law. What then? I'm certain we wouldn't remove it from the body of the article but would we still argue it should be in the lead? A number of editors have argued we can always remove it later if it turns out to be nothing but why not the reverse? Why not wait and see vs act then undo? Springee (talk) 17:59, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Any reason why the act first then reverse plan is better than the wait and see plan? Does Misplaced Pages have a policy/guideline that says it's better to and than reverse rather than wait and see? So far it seems about half the editors here, many experienced, feel it's better to wait. Springee (talk) 19:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Wait for what, exactly? There's no realistic outcome where Bannon's arrest won't end up being a significant part of his biography. (I mean, at least as significant as his role in Biosphere 2, which appears in the lead). MastCell19:18, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Scheme vs plan
Just a note that in American English, "scheme" has connotations of intentional wrongdoing. I know it's different other places, but the neutral term in AmEng would be "plan". —valereee (talk) 17:21, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
I looked back at the last 2,000 edits, to November 2016, and the D.O.B. has been there all that time. I expect it may have existed a decade longer than that. I can't imagine that Bannon himself hasn't looked at this article and had no problem with that particular entry. I think it should stay. Activist (talk) 06:56, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
