Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
::Yes, here's including a on modeling a second wave in COVID. There seems to be of what makes a wave a wave, but the term seems to come from the late 19th century. ] (]) 13:57, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
::Yes, here's including a on modeling a second wave in COVID. There seems to be of what makes a wave a wave, but the term seems to come from the late 19th century. ] (]) 13:57, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
== Rename to COVID-19 statistic ==
A million deaths is a statistic and COVID-19 passed million deaths so this is not an epidemic, not an outbreak, no longer even a pandemic, but a statistic. So this should be renamed to COVID-19 statistic. ] (]) 15:37, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Revision as of 15:37, 1 October 2020
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the COVID-19 pandemic article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
WikiProject COVID-19 aims to add to and build consensus for pages relating to COVID-19. They have so far discussed items listed below. Please discuss proposed improvements to them at the project talk page.
For infoboxes on the main articles of countries, use Wuhan, Hubei, China for the origin parameter. (March 2020)
"Social distancing" is generally preferred over "physical distancing". (April 2020, May 2020)
Page title
COVID-19 (full caps) is preferable in the body of all articles, and in the title of all articles/category pages/etc.(RM April 2020, including the main article itself, RM March 2021).
SARS-CoV-2 (exact capitalisation and punctuation) is the common name of the virus and should be used for the main article's title, as well as in the body of all articles, and in the title of all other articles/category pages/etc. (June 2022, overturning April 2020)
Map
There is no consensus about which color schemes to use, but they should be consistent within articles as much as possible. There is agreement that there should be six levels of shading, plus gray for areas with no instances or no data. (May 2020)
There is no consensus about whether the legend, the date, and other elements should appear in the map image itself. (May 2020)
For map legends, ranges should use fixed round numbers (as opposed to updating dynamically). There is no consensus on what base population to use for per capita maps. (May 2020)
To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.
This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject COVID-19, a project to coordinate efforts to improve all COVID-19-related articles. If you would like to help, you are invited to join and to participate in project discussions.COVID-19Wikipedia:WikiProject COVID-19Template:WikiProject COVID-19COVID-19
This article is within the scope of WikiProject China, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of China related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChinaWikipedia:WikiProject ChinaTemplate:WikiProject ChinaChina-related
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Viruses, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of viruses on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.VirusesWikipedia:WikiProject VirusesTemplate:WikiProject Virusesvirus
Omer Benjakob (February 9, 2020). "On Misplaced Pages, a fight is raging over coronavirus disinformation". Wired. Retrieved February 9, 2020. While a short and generic Misplaced Pages page on "coronavirus" had existed since 2013, the article about the "2019–20 coronavirus outbreak" was created on January 5, 2020.
Mikael Thalen (March 25, 2020). "Meet the Misplaced Pages editors fighting to keep coronavirus pages accurate". Retrieved April 8, 2020. Those pages include the Misplaced Pages article for the virus itself, known as Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2, the disease it causes, COVID-19, and the ongoing global pandemic the coronavirus has caused.
Material from 2019–20 coronavirus outbreak was split to other pages. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter pages, and it must not be deleted so long as the latter pages exist. Please leave this template in place to link the article histories and preserve this attribution. The former page's talk page can be accessed at Talk:2019–20 coronavirus outbreak.
Text has been copied to or from this article; see the list below. The source pages now serve to provide attribution for the content in the destination pages and must not be deleted as long as the copies exist. For attribution and to access older versions of the copied text, please see the history links below.
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 14 July 2020 and 28 August 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): WilliamWang002 (article contribs).
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 January 2020 and 25 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Marianneostos (article contribs). Peer reviewers: LawrenceH2020, Egarn005, Taha.A13.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the COVID-19 pandemic article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
NOTE: It is recommended to link to this list in your edit summary when reverting, as: ] item To ensure you are viewing the current list, you may wish to purge this page.
01. Superseded by #9
The first few sentences of the lead's second paragraph should state The virus is typically spread during close contact and via respiratory droplets produced when people cough or sneeze. Respiratory droplets may be produced during breathing but the virus is not considered airborne. It may also spread when one touches a contaminated surface and then their face. It is most contagious when people are symptomatic, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear. (RfC March 2020)
02. Superseded by #7
The infobox should feature a per capita count map most prominently, and a total count by country map secondarily. (RfC March 2020)
03. Obsolete
The article should not use {{Current}} at the top. (March 2020)
04. Do not include a sentence in the lead section noting comparisons to World War II. (March 2020)
05. Cancelled
Include subsections covering the domestic responses of Italy, China, Iran, the United States, and South Korea. Do not include individual subsections for France, Germany, the Netherlands, Australia and Japan. (RfC March 2020) Include a short subsection on Sweden focusing on the policy controversy. (May 2020)
Subsequently overturned by editing and recognized as obsolete. (July 2024)
06. Obsolete
There is a 30 day moratorium on move requests until 26 April 2020. (March 2020)
07. There is no consensus that the infobox should feature a confirmed cases count map most prominently, and a deaths count map secondarily. (May 2020)
08. Superseded by #16
The clause on xenophobia in the lead section should read ...and there have been incidents of xenophobia and discrimination against Chinese people and against those perceived as being Chinese or as being from areas with high infection rates. (RfC April 2020)
09. Cancelled
Supersedes #1. The first several sentences of the lead section's second paragraph should state The virus is mainly spread during close contact and by small droplets produced when those infected cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets may also be produced during breathing; however, they rapidly fall to the ground or surfaces and are not generally spread through the air over large distances. People may also become infected by touching a contaminated surface and then their face. The virus can survive on surfaces for up to 72 hours. Coronavirus is most contagious during the first three days after onset of symptoms, although spread may be possible before symptoms appear and in later stages of the disease. (April 2020)
Notes
Close contact is defined as 1 metres (3 feet) by the WHO and 2 metres (6 feet) by the CDC.
An uncovered cough can travel up to 8.2 metres (27 feet).
011. The lead section should use Wuhan, China to describe the virus's origin, without mentioning Hubei or otherwise further describing Wuhan. (April 2020)
019. Supersedes #12 and #18. The first sentence is The global COVID-19 pandemic (also known as the coronavirus pandemic), caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), began with an outbreak in Wuhan, China, in December 2019. (June 2024)
RfC: Misinformation visual
The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The arithmetic: As of the 31st of August, options #1 & #3 are equally supported in number.
The science: It cannot be reasonably disputed that the majority of the media and the scientific publications around the world, as well as in the United States, have criticized president Trump's stance in relation to the covid-19 pandemic. The sources to that effect are out there, and an adequate sample of them has already been offered by editors, here and elsewhere. At this point, it must be stressed that the RfC does not concern the scientific evaluation of president Trump's statements presented in the video. The RfC is about whether or not it is necessary to include the specific video (the specific "visual element") in the article's section abour misinformation.
The environment: Another fact that cannot be contested is that, on the basis of sources, once again and as always, a significant amount of information about the virus, the disease, the lethality, and other aspects of the pandemic have been and continue to be infected with misinformation - pun intended. Given the fact that most competent authorities around the world, political as well as scientific, are treating the pandemic as a significant threat to human health, it would be entirely reasonable to state that misinformation about the pandemic, as identified by sources, should be extensively presented in Misplaced Pages.
The significance of the visual element: In Misplaced Pages, an image or a video clip are considered ways of imparting information that are particularly strong. (Per WP:NOTYOUTUBE, where video adds value is in offering an audio or animated visual experience that cannot be reproduced by text or by a static image.) The president of the United States is unarguably a powerful person, whose every utterance (or tweet) is of extreme significance. The question arises whether this or some other U.S. president-related visual adds to the section's information quality.
The video clip's content: Is is accepted, per overwhelming consensus of sources, that what President Trump is suggesting or supporting in the video clip constitutes misinformation. We accept this. Again, the RfC does not concern the scientific worth of president Trump's statements.
The arguments: In favor of #1, the main argument is that President Trump is one the main creators (if not the main creator) of misinformation, although nominator Sdkb accepts that Trump "is certainly not the only leader who has been spreading misinformation" and that this particular clip came handy ("none of the proposed alternatives were nearly as good"), while Traut concurs (Trump's claim is "neither the first, nor the last example ") but then claims, without supporting evidence, that it is "one that has achieved worldwide well known coverage in the media". Perhaps in the States; there are many countries around the globe where Trump gets far less traction in the media. Dutchy45 and dave souza claim that "the US and especially the White House are the biggest spreaders of misinformation" and that "the US has been central to misinformation on the pandemic, with Trump playing a leading role." But such claims are not even presented in the section about which this RfC is conducted! In other words, we want to use a video clip that on its own in the article presents the U.S. & Trump as "the biggest spreaders of misinformation." For such a claim, which is not supported even in the main article about covid-19 misinformation, we'd need far stronger evidence.The World Health Organization, for instance, warns that we're suffering from an "infodemic," its term for the vast amount of covid-19 misinformation, but does not single out the U.S. as the culprit, directly or indirectly.
The invocation of WP:STATUSQUO is thinner than Francis Rossi's hairline. The length of this discussion and the passion herein exhibited cannot be easily dismissed.
The arguments offered by editors supporting #3 come out the strongest, in this context. Ggehrlich stated that the "use of an image is a representation of this section and the content it embodies" while using "an image of a polarized figure diminishes the information being disseminated throughout." Gerald stated that the pic "can be placed at the misinformation main page, not here" since, in his opinion, "it contributes...nothing ." Bakkster Man, Hzh, HollerithPunchCard ("if this an article about Trump failure in propagating accurate information about the virus, then the video insertion would be suitable"), Adoring nanny and others argued that the insertion of clip gives its content more prominence than it deserves.
The meta-arithmetic supports the main argument offered by those in favor of #3. The Misplaced Pages main article dedicated to and titled Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic contains some 2,200 words, of which about 35 concern the contested visual element (the video clip). The section on misinformation in this article, about which this RfC is conducted, contains some 260 words and the visual element contains again 35 words. That's 1.5% vs 13.4%. The visual element takes up space almost nine times greater in the section than in the full-extent article. That constitutes without a doubt an assignment of undue weight to that particular bit of misinformation.
The outcome: Given that the visual element,
covers and emphasizes only a couple of aspects of misinformation, i.e. the use of a certain chemical or UV, and
focuses on the U.S. president despite his office arguably not being the world's main instigator or disseminator of misinformation, and
is offered for use where a piece of text would suffice,
What visual element should be used for the information dissemination section (which consists primarily of the misinformation subsection) for this article?
Option 1
Option 1 (status quo): The video (right) of Donald Trump suggesting that disinfectant injections or exposure to ultraviolet light might help treat COVID-19, with the caption (previously affirmed as consensus) U.S. president Donald Trump suggested at a press briefing on 23 April that disinfectant injections or exposure to ultraviolet light might help treat COVID-19. There is no evidence that either could be a viable method. (1:05 min)
Option 2: Some other photo or video, or combination of photos/videos (previous options discussed here and elsewhere)
Option 1. The Trump press conference is a clear example of misinformation, despite the protestations of POV-pushers who have been campaigning to remove it ever since it was added by consensus. Trump is certainly not the only leader who has been spreading misinformation, but when we considered a variety of visuals options a month and a half ago, none of the proposed alternatives were nearly as good. Given Trump's prominence on the world stage, using this video seems perfectly suitable. {{u|Sdkb}} 17:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
One other note: I am very much saddened that, despite two previous well-attended discussions, we are having to devote yet more energy to this matter, rather than being able to spend it on the more general improvement/maintenance of an article who's overall quality is literally a matter of life or death. {{u|Sdkb}} 17:02, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3. Strong Oppose to any visual element. Continually reopening this topic only leads to more argument and disagreement. I don't think a visual aid is necessary for the misinformation section. The Trump clip adds no significant value nor great gains in understanding the misinformation issue with COVID 19 and simply works to polarize the article further, and open it to (unsubstantiated) claims of a political agenda, or feed conspiracy theorists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Porcelain katana (talk • contribs) 18:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
VETO again, Sdkb is manipulating the poles system again to create a false range of option with no respect or effort to listen to others comments. Here is my opinion again, I don't mind the picture as long as the comment depict the situation correctly. Trump was suggesting more researches, not immediate use for Americans. The media DID reported that he directly suggested the usage of disinfectant and I'd be fine with that statement. IF and only IF we can't reach a consensus for the caption, i'm fine with ending the drama with option 3, this picture is not crucial. Iluvalar (talk) 18:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 2, Pinocchio, seen here being iconic and not a real boy. We can rake him over the coals, not a shred of BLP guilt, even subconsciously. Barring that, nothing, use your words. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 No visual illustration in the section given the opportunity to push a narrative that violates WP:NPOV, not to mention WP:UNDUE prominence. The image of the Iranian President there was also previously removed for this reason. Hzh (talk) 11:05, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 There's so much misinformation coming from various sources that singling out the orange buffoon seems hardly appropriate; and in any case I don't think the video is a particularly good use of audio-visuals: a more appropriate take would be some proper criticism of misinformation by reputable sources, but then there's probably no such option that is copyright-eligible so... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 00:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Any visual element for any general topic is always going to "single out" the example it depicts. We don't need to declare Trump the worst misinformation spreader on the planet to use the video; all we need to establish is that he's a representative example. {{u|Sdkb}} 06:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Adding only a single image there does in effect declare something special about what he said, and that is UNDUE and non-neutral, especially when there is uncertainty if he had intended to be ironic. There are far worse examples of misinformation that actually killed people, for example the misinformation that drinking strong alcohol can kill the virus resulted in hundreds of deaths in Iran and other countries -. You are arguing here that the quality of this article is a matter of life and death, but strangely removed that misinformation had actually killed people in that section . Why is that? Hzh (talk) 08:46, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Nah, it has nothing to do with his claim to be ironic (I don't think any reasonable source took that one seriously, and anyway Trump is known for "revising" statements he made earlier...); it's just that I don't think it helps illustrate the topic, and anyway this particular example lasted just a few news cycles as usual before being buried by something else. I don't think videos are a good idea here. Maybe a governement poster about misinformation could do the trick (maybe something like this, but from a proper non-copyrighted source)? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 11:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Adding on, the MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE guideline begins Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding. The Trump video clearly meets that threshold of "significant and relevant" and clearly aids in understanding by providing a representative example of a high-profile figure spreading misinformation (the text in the section, by contrast, is very generalized). {{u|Sdkb}} 08:38, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Considering the interesting selection of options listed above (or better stated, those NOT listed above who could be), the most neutral and sensible choice appears to be no image, Option 3. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:25, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Previous visual used If you have a solid alternative, please give us a link to the file and make your case for it so we can consider it. If you follow the linked discussion from option 2 in the question, you'll see that the best visual we were able to find (despite a fair amount of searching) before coming across the Trump video was this photo of a building belonging to a Chinese news agency. {{u|Sdkb}} 08:23, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Plenty of valid, more neutral, options were suggested in the article. Sdkb personnaly reverted several of them. I don't know why he act as if he received no suggestions. Iluvalar (talk) 19:08, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 The less emphasis given to any misinformation the better. People come to this article for information, not misinformation. No matter how clearly we label any bit of misinformation, someone is going to think the opposite. This is especially true when it is in the form of a video, as someone might play it, and people who aren't even reading the article could hear. Additionally, having a video is grossly WP:UNDUE. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 - it's neither the first, nor the last example, but one that has achieved worldwide well known coverage in the media. So it's a very suitable example. --Traut (talk) 06:53, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 for neutrality reasons. There's no need to single out Trump when many other world leaders are spreading rampant misinformation - like the Madagascar herbal cure that many African nations have ordered. And an image/video contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion and does not inform people. It will simply serve people's confirmation biases, or turn people off from reading the article, therefore preventing us from providing quality information to people. Nmurali02 (talk) 12:58, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 per Traut - Sure plenty of people have spread misinformation but Trumps misinformation has recieved worldwide attention and therefore IMHO should be the main imagery here, –Davey201013:46, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 or 2 The fact that it's so high-profile makes it useful in illustrating how pervasive misinformation about COVID-19 really is. On the other hand since Trump does this kind of stuff all the time, I might prefer something indicating the depth of impact caused by active disinformation (a burnt 5G tower, for example) rather than just the reach of misinformation. ─ ReconditeRodent « talk · contribs » 12:01, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 3 no video here, as this article is already very big, and the video adds nothing extra here than a short sentence could cover. This is only a summary of the main article. On the negative side, it would be emphasizing trolling and assisting in election promotion. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 13:10, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 3, the illustrative materials are already way too America-centric. I'd suggest a Bolsonaro video but we are the English-language Misplaced Pages and we've ruled out a single image already. — Bilorv (talk) 23:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Bilorv, out of the roughly 36 location-specific photos currently in the article, I count 8 from the U.S. (including the Trump video). That seems fine, given that the U.S. is the country with by far the most cases. {{u|Sdkb}} 21:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Sdkb, thanks for the reply. I've looked at some numbers and I had underestimated just how cataclysmically bad the U.S. has been in the pandemic. I'd argue that there are other factors than number of cases and deaths—every country has changed their way of life significantly in response to the pandemic, so the U.S. doesn't have a quarter of the "things that have changed" because of the pandemic, so to speak. I guess my argument is somewhat weaker now though. — Bilorv (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
The U.S. is only testing more. They only tested about 20% of the population. The test numbers are still ramping up at nearly 2 million per week and still 7% of the tests come positive. There is no reason to believe it is different in other countries. It's a fallacy to state that the U.S. are more hit by the virus just because they are conducting more tests. Iluvalar (talk) 00:53, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 3, if this is an article about Trump failure in propagating accurate information about the virus, then the video insertion would be suitable. However, if the article is about COVID-19 pandemic, which it is in this case, I feel that having the video is WP:UNDUE.HollerithPunchCard (talk) 06:09, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 3. For reasons mentioned above by HzH, UNDUE prominence to show just this one and NPOV as a result. That image in particular doesn’t help inform for the article topic, it distracts and incites. This isn’t supposed to be partisan advertising video space. There was and is an enormous amount of misinformation, including WHO and CCDC and so, partly the nature of changing knowledge and partly best-guess or misunderstandings or wishful thinking... explain the phenomenon and give many examples, from vitamin D to Zinc to arthritis drugs to Polio vaccine to Oxy to Camel urine to Disinfectants... but don’t give a false impression of that one case as particularly significant. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:27, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1, the US has been central to misinformation on the pandemic, with Trump playing a leading role, so this both gives due weight to the primary vector, and sets the historical context for developments which are still playing out. . . dave souza, talk11:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1, like User:Dave souza said and I'm paraphrasing here, globally the US and especially the White House are the biggest spreaders of misinformation. Even Bolsonaro has been quoted repeating US-originated nonsense. Dutchy45 (talk) 15:58, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1, I don't think I'm merely being American-centric when I say that Trump is the world's most notable purveyor of unscientific misinformation, and it's just a question of which Trump misinformation graphic to use; the Clorox one is as good as any. —RCraig09 (talk) 19:33, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 The graphic appears alongside the sub-heading of "misinformation" and the caption makes two claims, that the President said that, and that there was no evidence for the claim. Neither of these two claims appear to be disputed. While the text under the "Misinformation" subheading could be better tweaked to provide context for the graphic, the graphic itself is not the issue. SiJoHaAl (talk) 05:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 Looking at this issue from a non-American and (at least what I would say is) a fairly unbiased perspective, I do not think that it is biased specifically against President Trump to use the visual and I think that it is important to include because, as many others have stated, the United States has been the largest purveyor of misinformation throughout the pandemic and not only was his "joking" suggestion dangerous, but people have actively been following the advice. As recently as yesterday the leader of a fake church has been selling bleach as a cure for the virus. I think that specifically highlighting this particular show of misinformation is important because it reinforces the prevalence of misinformation, and goes to show how little we actually know about the virus because, although we obviously know that ingesting bleach in any manner will not help in any way, we still have the leader of an entire nation talking about it. It also shows the impact that this pandemic is having. PunkAndromeda (talk) 12:32, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
You are aware that some groups where using bleach before right ? And that Trump did a press conference the very next day to deny it ? "people have actively been following the advice", Do you have sources for that ? Iluvalar (talk) 16:30, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
The CDC published a survey showing that household cleaners and disinfectants have been used dangerously through the pandemic as protection against Covid-19, though they did not explicitly tie this to President Trump. It does imply that people were using bleach before hand, and I fully accept that, but there is still the fact that New York City's poison control centre reported a spike in calls "specifically about exposure to Lysol, 10 cases specifically about bleach and 11 cases about exposures to other household cleaners" on the day after President Trump's briefing. PunkAndromeda (talk) 23:23, 13 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes it was after the press coverage of that conference. Where many media misquoted him and amplified the misstep. Nancy Pelosi said in conference "The president is asking people to inject Lysol into their lung" for example. But nothing of this is represented in Option 1. Only misquoting him ourselves with only one side and no mention of the next day press conference. Iluvalar (talk) 01:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
President Trump and 23 April seems an example of this, not the cause of it. To add cites and info - CDC report covers since the pandemic started circa January some people have been washing produce or gargling with bleach. See (Yahoo news, CDC). Calls to helplines also went up year-over-year -- much attributed to cleaners simply being more present recently so more incidents happen, some to people also wondering if bleach would help -- he just wasn't the only one or first one. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 18:50, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 - Donald Trump has been the leader of deadly misinformation, disinformation, lies, and propaganda regarding Coronavirus since January 2020 and continues to this day. Trump's deadly lies about using disinfectant to combat Coronavirus caused Lysol to issue a warning "under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body through injection, ingestion or any other route." State's Emergency Management Agencies had to issue a warning that “under no circumstances” should any disinfectant be taken to treat the coronavirus. The fact that manufacturers and EMA had to issue warnings to combat Trump's deadly lies, makes this very DUE; which is why Option 1 the best choice here. BetsyRMadison (talk) 11:01, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 - Absolutely option #1 is the correct choice. Here we are in what used to be prior to this administration a world leader, and how is it that now our only claim of leadership consists of leading in the number of virus deaths, second only to Mexico? It's not that Americans are less intelligent, less caring of others, or less informed--but we are in a country where we find ourselves under the leadership of a president who is all of those things rolled into one. We have a president that claims to know more than the world's leading virus expert, our own CDC, and the world health organization, the WHO. What is sad is that when Trump says this nonsense there is a certain percent of the population that believe him no matter how outlandish his statements are. And even if he later claims he was joking, which he obviously was not, is this something to joke about? Yes, we need his exact words here and we need to see him say these words as but one example of the reason that we find that, for example, with 156 deaths in Florida on July 17 compared to 18 in France while France's population is three times that of Florida. I consider that video extremely important for this article. Gandydancer (talk) 16:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 – Arguably the most powerful leader in the world pushing extremely ill-informed ideas about the coronavirus at a public briefing is a perfect example of the kind of disinformation and ignorance that shaped the response to COVID-19 crisis in the US. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1 this is essentially statusquo and has been in place for weeks or months, as far as I recall. No reason to hide the truth, and it is very well sourced. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 18:53, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
This is no statuquo, i'm still here since may following the talk page every day, I'm just avoiding unnecessary edit wars. Iluvalar (talk) 03:16, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 3. Strong Oppose The use of an image is a representation of this section and the content it embodies. Using an image of a polarized figure diminishes the information being disseminated throughout, and invites criticism to the neutrality of its contents.Ggehrlich (talk) 02:01, 25 July 2020 (UTC) — Ggehrlich (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
Option 3. I see no need in visuals. It can be placed at the misinformation main page, not here. I feel like it contributes to nothing, as the summary does not state the name Donald Trump explicitly, yknow what I meant. I think it also gives space for future things. GeraldWL15:11, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 3: I don't see that the visual adds anything here, and seems needlessly likely to provoke disruptive editing. Darren-Mtalk19:55, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, the main thing I think it adds per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE is a representative example of a high-profile figure spreading misinformation (the text in the section, by contrast, is very generalized). And we can deal with disruptive editing, but behaving differently because we're afraid of it is self-censorship, which very quickly takes us down a path we want to avoid (incentivizing Trump partisans to disrupt more until we decide it's not worth the trouble to include negative information). {{u|Sdkb}} 23:08, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
Option 1. The man on the figure has become an embodiment, an avatar of misinformation related to the pandemic. Everyone forget already even about his impeachment. My very best wishes (talk) 04:07, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
Option 3: I see no reason why a visual aid improves this section, and seems more likely to be WP:UNDUE given the very nature of misinformation. Particularly any visual representation of the misinformation itself. Second choice replacement would be Option 2 with an aid related to, but not in and of itself, misinformation. Bakkster Man (talk) 14:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Discussion
While there is a previous consensus on the inclusion of the picture, there is not a consensus on which caption should follow it. Benica11 (talk) 18:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
There was actually no consensus on the inclusion of the picture/video, which is why we have this RfC. Sdkb wrongly claimed that there was consensus on adding it after the RfC on caption and add it to the Current consensus section above. Hzh (talk) 22:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
This is not the way to start a RfC. RfC needs to be neutral and brief per WP:RFCBRIEF, which this is not (particular your option 1). You claimed consensus on a previous discussion which you should not do - as someone who started the discussion, you need to wait for a non-involved editor to close that discussion, you are not at liberty to claim consensus yourself, especially when there were 7 who expressly opposed Option 1. That Option 1 by the way is about the caption of the video file, it is not about using the video as a visual element in the Misinformation section, therefore using the votes on caption to claim a consensus on using the video in the Current consensus is wrong. You have in effect made a false statement in the Current consensus section. Then you accuse those who pointed this out as POV-pushers. Given that you have started this RfC, you are also implicitly agreeing that your claim of consensus is wrong, so these so-called "POV-pushers" are right? Hzh (talk) 22:49, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
The prior consensus to include the video was established here and solidified by its presence for over a month in this high-scrutiny article, and its inclusion was part of the current consensus list even before the discussion on the caption that affirmed the current caption. The inclusion consensus wasn't as strong as the caption consensus, which is why we're now having this RfC at your own behest. Some people complained at the caption discussion that discussing inclusion was out of scope, and now the same group is complaining here at the inclusion discussion that discussing the caption is out of scope, so sorry, I'm not going to give that weight. {{u|Sdkb}} 23:33, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Lies ! I was in "here". Also this : in May 14, you cannot possibly ignore that this image is contested since the beginning. You're argument "solidified by its presence for over a month" is out of the scope of WP:FAITH. Iluvalar (talk) 00:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I have, in a role as an uninvolved administrator, struck the wording in the RfC that suggests the video is the status quo option. The May discussion which justifies its inclusion was inconclusive. Its inclusion was reverted and this inconclusive discussion was then used to justify a comment in the article text to attempt to dissuade others from removing or reverting it. It is my opinion as an uninvolved administrator that status quo would be no picture/video for the section. One is not required in this instance after all, but would be positive and appropriate if consensus can be found. Otherwise I see no issue with the framing of this RfC which does seem to present the full range of options. Barkeep49 (talk) 04:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
@Barkeep49: Thank you. I wonder if you can as uninvolved administrator remove or strike off item #13 in the current consensus pinned at the top. It does not make sense to have a RfC on using the video while claiming that there is already a consensus on using it (which there isn't). Sdkb added item #13 after the discussion on the caption. As mentioned in Talk:COVID-19 pandemic#Trump & Khamenei misinformation images/videos: NO consensus, there wasn't a clear consensus on the caption either. Hzh (talk) 10:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
How about we delete the whole misinformation section? Seriously, the whole thing. Give people information. Don't confuse them. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Really Good Point the graphic doesn't seem to be the problem. The graphic is germane to the article. The misinformation section is a little odd and not that consistent with other articles I've read. I think the content is important, but can it be better incorporated into the other existing sections. There obviously has been misinformation during the pandemic, but how do other wiki articles handle misinformation? With its own section, or incorporated elsewhere in the article.... SiJoHaAl (talk) 05:09, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Also should misinformation from Governments be lumped in with misinformation from the media? Considering their widely different roles and responsibilities. Obviously no misinformation is good. But arguably Governments have a stronger obligation to present the facts. I propose that Government misinformation be incorporated into the section on national responses whereas media misinformation have a section called "Media Coverage" or similar... SiJoHaAl (talk) 05:15, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. The thing about misinformation and their believers is their concept: if it is not said to be wrong, couldn't it be right? So I feel it is very important to step up against misinformation and to point it out here. If you want to reduce the size of the article, think about transmission, treatment etc. But any of this topics has already a wikipedia page of its own. All of those sections would have to be trimmed to a minimum, an even shorter abstract what to find on the linked pages. --Traut (talk) 06:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
As long as it's clearly presented as flawed, I think that the section is due, with a link to the main article. —PaleoNeonate – 11:23, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
If this RfC ends up being no consensus, as it seems like it might, the closer will have to judge for themselves what the status quo is. Regardless of whether one feels the discussion back in early May that led to it being added was a consensus, I think it would be an extreme stretch to deny that an element that has existed for nearly two months in an article with 100,000 views per day (excepting periods of a few hours where it was removed before being restored by one of roughly a half dozen editors) has become the status quo. {{u|Sdkb}} 18:36, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Can I suggest that you leave it for the closer to decide instead of telling them what the consensus may be or what the status quo is? At the moment the number of votes for Option 3 is 14 (including one who also chose Option 2), and votes for Option 1 is 8 (including one who also chose option 2). There are almost twice as many people who chose Option 3 over Option 1. In the previous discussion you decided that there was a consensus when it was only 9 versus 7, so why the difference of opinion now? Remember also that the picture for the Iranian president was there much earlier. Hzh (talk) 09:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
The Video stayed stictly because of WP:3RR, I'm the 9th in the 9 vs 7. And when I saw that the description was not consensual, I removed the video twice. I'm since the 1rst week in 3RR with Sdkb. So no, there is no status quo whatsoever. Iluvalar (talk) 20:35, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
Yeah... I just officially broke WP:3RR and removed the image. I count 13x Option 3 and 9x Option 1. That's not a consensus, but at least a majority to vote for the removal of the image. Also note worthy that besides me, there was 3-4 other participants (see Hzh and SandyGeorgia) who mentioned NPOV and the difficulty we met to make a neutral spin on it rather then the image itself. I do not think I'm impartial enough to close this RfC. If someone can take a look at it ? Iluvalar (talk) 16:36, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, that kind of behavior will get you blocked Iluvalar. Let an uninvolved editor or admin close the discussion at the appropriate time. Meanwhile, WP:NOCON says "In deletion discussions, a lack of consensus normally results in the article, page, image, or other content being kept." The case here is that the video has been in the article for months, so it should remain until there is consensus to remove it. - MrX 🖋19:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
Who decided it's a deletion discussions ? I've been contesting it since the start in May. It should not have been added until a consensus was found. Iluvalar (talk) 19:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
The count is actually 15 for option 3 - one of them voted for option 2 but failing that, would chose nothing which is option 3, another you might have missed because the vote is given at the end. Anyway, wait for someone to close the RfC first (say, in a week or so) before doing anything. Hzh (talk) 11:31, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Technically I vetoed, so I didn't count myself. But the closer is free to do it. Option 1 is POV, it intentionally omit the correction of trump himself the next day. Iluvalar (talk)` —Preceding undated comment added 16:21, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
His claim the next "Friday that he had said it sarcastically." feels more like yet another mark on the list of his misinformations. Nothing within this press talk looked like sarcasm. But regardless of whether it was sarcasm or not, that's why it is such an excellent example here for misinformation - if no one at that point felt it was sarcasm and no one of his stuff had enough courage to stand up and say how stupid that idea was. --Traut (talk) 16:55, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
It doesn't matter if is excuses are pathetic or not. Or if he believe it or not. The guy did an errata the next day, and we chose to omit his own opinion. It takes more then a 50:50 split in discussion to break WP:NPOV. We all know this is a political problem, not a Covid-19 one. Iluvalar (talk) 17:33, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Trump got caught telling a deadly lie. Even Fox News anchor, John Roberts (who attended the briefing where Trump suggested his deadly lie) did not believe Trump's 'I was being sarcastic' bs lie as a cover-up for his deadly lie the day before. Fox News' John Roberts said, "I was watching very closely and at no time did I seem to think that the president was sarcastically asking the question.” There is no POV issue. Trump's told a deadly lie where manufacturers and states EMA had to issue warnings telling people "under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body through injection, ingestion or any other route." That's called a fact (not a POV issue). If Trump doesn't want encyclopedias to report his deadly lies; then Trump should stop spreading deadly lies -- but so far -- Trump cannot seem to help himself from spreading deadly lies about COVID19. BetsyRMadison (talk) 11:24, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
User:BetsyRMadison mmm, it seems more the media who crafted flavors of misinformation there, and certainly they’re the ones who then made it widespread. The reporting was typically not relating the words or context but attacking Trump. That coverage amount makes this thus DUE for mention, but gets OFFTOPIC in the way of any Covid message by lost credibility as soon as it becomes about making a personal/political attack. The image is unrelated to the disease and the good/bad nature of the idea, it’s about President Trump and the partisan denouncing. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:18, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
Oh, that doesn't surprise me at all - at my age, the gullibility of our species makes me wonder how we managed to last this long. But it's a great example of why we need to insist on impeccable sources here. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:59, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
This discussion was archived before it was closed, it needs someone to close it before archiving. Hzh (talk) 11:29, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
Hzh, the article could have sat in the archive fine while waiting for a close. Dredging it up again is just going to lead to more argument, which is unlikely to be helpful given that the main cases have already been made at this point. {{u|Sdkb}} 23:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
An archived post won't get closed since no one is supposed to make any changes to the thread once it is archived. Hzh (talk) 01:26, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
Unrelated proposal to change information dissemination body text
Merge. The words in italics are proposed changes by me. There are also some word that I trimmed. I propose this be the Information disemmation section:
...Some scientists chose to share their results quickly on preprint servers such as bioRxiv. Meanwhile, the pandemic has resulted in misinformation and conspiracy theories about the scale of the pandemic and the origin, prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of the disease. False information has been spread through social media, text messaging, and mass media, including the tabloid media, conservative media, and state media of countries such as China, Russia, Iran, and Turkmenistan. It has also been reportedly spread by covert operations backed by states such as Saudi Arabia, Russia and China to generate panic and sow distrust in other countries. In some countries, such as India, Bangladesh, and Ethiopia, journalists have been arrested for allegedly spreading fake news about the pandemic. Misinformation has been propagated by celebrities, politicians (including heads of state in countries such as the United States, Iran, and Brazil), and other public figures. Commercial scams have claimed to offer at-home tests, supposed preventives, and "miracle" cures. Several religious groups have claimed their faith will protect them from the virus. Some people have claimed the virus is a bioweapon accidentally or purposefully leaked from a laboratory, a population-control scheme, the result of a spy operation, or the side effect of 5G upgrades to cellular networks. The World Health Organization has declared an "infodemic" of misinformation about the virus, which poses global health risks.
I came here thinking I might close this. I was confident I could do it right even after finding out it was going to be a close call. Except, the oldest question, though vital, seems yet inadequately addressed. The caption was presented as having consensus in the formulation of the RFC itself. I find no strong basis for such an assertion. The discussion on it in this RFC didn't resolve it well enough, and there is no way to know if the supporters of option 1 were aware of the dubiousness of that assertion (thus providing support for the caption anyway in this RFC itself), or if the participants just took the assertion at its words, rendering the fundamental premise almost invalid, in which case the RFC is itself either invalid or needs to be reassessed in that light. The reason I find the issue pertinent and problematic is because, but for that, I see a weak consensus for Option 1. Usedtobecool☎️14:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
Usedtobecool, thanks for taking a look at this discussion. I linked to the prior discussion on the caption when I formulated the RfC so that anyone who wished to could read it for themselves. You are correct that that discussion never received a formal close, but I read it as a consensus that, if the video is included, the Caption 1 (the one presented here) should be used, since no one !voted for Caption 2 or presented a third option, and most of the "oppose both" !votes came from editors who did not want the video included at all. The caption for the video hasn't really changed since it was introduced (apart from the one editor who tried to switch it to Caption 2 and was quickly reverted), so it is pretty solidly established as the status quo caption at this point. I hope that helps clarify. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} 07:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
Multiple editors have said that there was no consensus, it seems that you are the only one who asserted that there was, you see the problem here? Hzh (talk) 13:18, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Challenge close: Given that there was already discussion at the bottom from a potential closer (Usedtobecool) who observed weak consensus for option 1 but for one outstanding issue, this is very much not the expected result, and the closer's extended rationale comes across in large part as a WP:SUPERVOTE. If the closer is going to weight arguments, it is necessary to do so using guidelines and policies (MOS:IMAGEREL, presumably), but instead, the closer brings up only the essayWP:NOTYOUTUBE (which was not once mentioned in the discussion itself) and does a bunch of math about how much room the visual takes up that was also not part of the discussion. Further, per the closer's own rationale, the arguments made by some Option 3 !voters that Trump was not spreading misinformation were completely unsupported ( is accepted, per overwhelming consensus of sources, that what President Trump is suggesting or supporting in the video clip constitutes misinformation), but they did not discount them at all in their count, so the tally is actually a numerical superiority for Option 1, not a tie. To find from that not just no consensus but consensus for Option 3 is an implausible reading. Courtesy ping The Gnome. {{u|Sdkb}} 20:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
Challenge close agree that that was a supervote and not a true reading of the consensus. for me it looked like no consensus and so the content should remain --Investigatory (talk) 16:47, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. The image was originally added after being rushed through without due process, and we have already had very extensive discussions about it. Let's not start it all over again, and let the page continue to focus on supplying matter of fact data, rather than political propaganda. Thank you. David A (talk) 06:39, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
David A, Investigatory and I are speaking to the process; your reiterations of why you feel the image should be removed are not pertinent to an evaluation of the consensus of the discussion that has already taken place above. This close would be very unlikely to hold up if someone here brought it for review at WP:AN; the only question is whether it's really worth it to go through the fuss. {{u|Sdkb}} 05:40, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Continue old RfC: Lead shortening
I found out that my RfC about shortening the lead has been archived, but felt like there are still things to talk about, and I would like to have a consensus. See the discussion for those who haven't. Points 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10 are either rightfully rejected or implemented in agreement.
For point 9, I still find it valid, as the lead is an in-a-nutshell of the pandemic and does not need to specify it in a very specific way, i.e. mentioning the numbers. If readers want to know more, they can just go to the Famines section, and/or the Corona famine article. My two points there stands.
For point final, I find more people to agree on my proposal (2 -- 1), and would like to continue it. Personally I think we can just put "xenophobia" there, I think there's nothing wrong with that. To make it less "awkward" if you feel so, we can merge it as: "Misinformation about the virus have been circulated, as well as incidents of xenophobia and racism."
Mild, unimportant proposal: what about changing the sentence to "Educational institutions have been partially or fully closed, 'or switched to online schooling."?
It is very awkward to go to the old discussion and see which points you are referring to. Can you just list the ones you want to discuss again and how you want to change them? Hzh (talk) 14:39, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Point 9 is this: "Poverty" could just be omitted, as "economic disruption" and "the largest recession" is basically it. As to "famines," we could just combine in to be "including the largest recession since the Great Depression, as well as global famines." This refers to The first sentence of the last paragraph in the lead (this discussion is about making the lead simpler, less technical). David A shows neutral view on that, and the discussion suddenly ends. That's why I'm bringing back this discussion.
Point final is: Last sentence could be shortened to "Xenophobia as well as discrimination towards those being in highly-infected areas were seen.". Sdkb opposes the proposal, saying that it has been subject to a big consensus discussion, however I argued that the sentence, which is centered towards Chinese, is outdated as it's not just Chinese being victimized. Two people, Hzh and Ovinus Real, agreed with the proposal.
Well, given how extreme the numbers are for people that have entered extreme poverty and/or starvation because of the shutdowns (100 million respectively 130 million), I still think that they should be briefly mentioned in the lead. David A (talk) 10:04, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
David A, those numbers could have a place in Coronavirus famine, similar to the pandemic numbers being highlighted briefly in this article's lead.. As I said in the previous thread, we don't need to highlight it very specifically in a lead of an article not totally related on the famine, where details are not of concern. Misplaced Pages is also not a tribute to a specific case, if that's one of your intention, which it seems to be. This is not an awareness platform, nor does highlighting the numbers in the lead going to help alleviate their struggle. GeraldWL15:10, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
Since when is Misplaced Pages not an awareness platform? The entire point of Misplaced Pages is to make people at large more well-informed about verifiable facts and data, as far as I am aware, and these are extremely relevant data regarding the consequences of the global shutdowns. This doesn't take up much room in the page, and is easily among the most extreme truthful information within it. Why are you so obsessed with removing it? David A (talk) 06:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
David A, as I said, the relevant data, which I agree with you on that, could feel home at the corona famine article, in which it itself is the subject in discussion. Omitting the numbers to make it more brief does not make things any worse. Okay, you're saying you want people to be well-informed. No numbers detailed in the first few paragraphs does not mean they will not be aware of it. I have repeated this: leads aren't everything, they don't store every specific data, and shouldn't be. I am not "obsessed" in a way that's so insane, it's basically what's right. You don't need lots of details at the lead. It's a summary. Like a film plot; it doesn't cover everything, it just takes the root. Quoting MOS:INTRO, "Editors should avoid lengthy paragraphs and overly specific descriptions – greater detail is saved for the body of the article." GeraldWL07:11, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
@David A: "The entire point of Misplaced Pages is to make people at large more well-informed about verifiable facts and data" - that fundamentally is what an encyclopedia is WP:NOT. We don't deal in "facts and data", but rather analysis and synthesis of facts and data, at a couple of levels up, since we are a tertiary text. We need to be a summary of accepted knowledge as found published in reputable sources. Alexbrn (talk) 07:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
After reading the lead again and looking at it anew, I don't believe that the information about poverty is excessive. It is one of the global effects of COVID-19 and is brief enough that I don't see an issue with it being included in the lead. Jurisdicta (talk) 20:30, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
Jurisdicta, again, I'm not saying we should entirely forget the info about poverty.
First, I just view the numbers as extraneous, and that if the reader wants to learn more they can just go to the famine section. Not everyone is interested in numbers, like, right off the bat.
Second, I view "social and economic disruption" represents "poverty and famine" too, so it would be simpler to just erase the "poverty and famine" thing as "social and economic disruption" basically sums it up. People will just immediately think of poverty and possibly famines when they hear "economic disruption." This should be distinguished from "not including the info." It's not "brief" as in "containing few words." GeraldWL07:13, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Investigatory, the World Bank Organization describes poverty as hunger, lack of shelter, poor medical treatment, inaccessibility to schools, not having a job, and "fear for the future, living one day at a time." It ended with "Most often, poverty is a situation people want to escape. So poverty is a call to action -- for the poor and the wealthy alike -- a call to change the world so that many more may have enough to eat, adequate shelter, access to education and health, protection from violence, and a voice in what happens in their communities."
Given the definition from a prominent organization like World Bank, I think it's safe to include famines as socioeconomic disrupt. Famine is a situation people want to escape. It's a lack of food. It is a call to action. It is also a fear for the future. Just because the H1N1 pandemic has socio/economic disruption but does not have famines, does not mean famines are not socio/economic disruption. GeraldWL13:49, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Investigatory, the only difference I see is that famine is (uncountable) extreme shortage of food in a region while poverty is the quality or state of being poor or indigent; want or scarcity of means of subsistence; indigence; need. Okay, I can take that, however that doesn't take the coronavirus famine away from being "social and economic disruption." Quoting Coronavirus famine#COVID-19 pandemic, "Simultaneously, many poorer workers in low- and middle-income nations also lost their jobs or ability to farm as a result of these lockdowns, whilst children could not receive school meals due to the education shutdown across much of the world." GeraldWL10:37, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
I would agree with David A that given the significant number of people affected, "poverty" should be mentioned. This would be WP:DUE. However, I do not oppose to shortening it in some way. I also think the term "global famine" is excessive, and I'm not sure the sources support it given that other causes are involved. As for the xenophobia issue, I haven't changed my mind, giving Chinese people a special mention in the lead as victims is WP:UNDUE when far more people have suffered in many different ways worse effects of the pandemic. Therefore if xenophobia is to be mentioned, it would need to be phrased in a general manner rather than about any specific ethnic group. Hzh (talk) 11:58, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Gosh I've never been so hesitant in editing a page, so I'm bring this minor thing here. Perhaps the title "Cases per country" in the infobox show section would be clearer as labeled "Total cases per country" since at first glance, at least to me, I was initially unsure how that map was different than the uppermost map of the infobox... if that makes sense? Also when the "Cases per country" is closed, I was also unsure as to how it would be different than the uppermost map... Aza24 (talk) 19:45, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
I updated it to show the daily new confirmed deaths per million people. I think this map is the most useful, as we know cited in the first paragraph of the text that the case count is vastly underestimated. User:Kencf0618 can you have a play with the "Coronavirus Data Explorer" at OWID here and tell me which you prefer?
Furthermore given that the case count is vastly underestimated, I propose that we change the main map to something like deaths per capita. Ping User:Sdkb to help discuss if we should change. --Investigatory (talk) 00:11, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Investigatory, I'm not a fan of the fact that the legend is included as part of the image itself—it makes it too small, presents accessibility problems, etc. (see this discussion). The square projection is also non-standard for Misplaced Pages, compared to the one with rounded corners used at the top.
The current setup is the result of this discussion from way back, and shouldn't really be changed without more input, so I'm going to restore the status quo for now, but I think it might be a good idea to have another RfC about which maps to put in the infobox (it might be a good idea to have it at the WikiProject page and expand the scope to all geographic COVID-19 pages for consistency).
Regarding the total deaths, it looks like the deaths per capita map has actually been being updated by Dan Polansky, but the "as of" date here hasn't been updated, so it's stuck on September 13 (didn't we have a template that updated that automatically? Where did that go?). I'm long since beyond exhausted trying to convince everyone to set up a centralized system for keeping COVID data automatically updated, so I won't opine on that other than to say that it continues to be a major failure with colossal and mounting costs in terms of both reliability and editor effort. I do think it's useful to have a total deaths count in addition to the rolling count for WP:RECENTISM and general informational reasons. {{u|Sdkb}} 00:37, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
@Sdkb: Yes we should be able to include the legend separately, thats a minor problem, didn't want to spend the extra effort if it wasn't going to stand. Ping User:Dan Polansky before starting the RfC. I think that we should focus on deaths per capita as the main map, followed by daily deaths per capita 7 day rolling average, then case counts at the bottom, because case counts truly reflect the country's ability to test, and are arguably much less useful than death counts. Re: colossal and mounting costs in terms of both reliability and editor effort I truly respect how well the editors have been able to keep up with the data. However, I propose that if it is truly that unreliable, we can change to OWID. --Investigatory (talk) 00:44, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Also if you look at my proposed OWID map here, it actually gives a vastly different picture of the pandemic than the current maps, and therefore why I found it to be so useful. --Investigatory (talk) 00:48, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Very interesting and informative discussion all around. 1) Get rid of the states and provinces. 2) The Mollweide project is the standard for this scale of distribution of data. 3) The nestled boxes are to mind in the most useful order. 4) That said, in the interests of standardization an Rfc should take another crack at it. 5) A map of the six WHO regions would be informative too. kencf0618 (talk) 17:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Infobox: date parameter
Currently, the date parameter is set to 1 December 2019. But the source used mentions none of that. According to the Template:infobox pandemic the description of date is "The date of the pandemic". So shouldn't it be the date where the outbreak turned into a pandemic? But, if you click the template, it will redirect to Template:infobox outbreak. So not sure at all what to do here. Feelthhis (talk) 13:59, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Concept of a 'Second Wave'
The term Second Wave is used frequently in media about the virus and tends to focus on regionally specific waves (or ebbs and flows) of viral spread. I left a message on the talk page for the disambiguation for Second Wave hoping to encourage discussion. The only mention in terms of virology relates to deadly second wave of the Spanish Flu. I am simply wondering if said concept relating to COVID-19 should be mentioned on the disambiguation and/or the larger article. I understand that the virus is still relatively new, and second waves are popping up randomly around the world, if at all, while some countries are still firmly in their first wave.
I am a frequent editor for COVID-19 pandemic in Canada, COVID-19 pandemic in Ontario and COVID-19 pandemic in Toronto. I have seen frequent mention of the concept amongst Canadian media (as well as American media) and the Prime Minister of Canada Justin Trudeau announced Canada was already in a "Second Wave" . In any case, I wonder how I use the terminology when there seems to be a loose definition of what a "Second Wave" is in the first place.
A million deaths is a statistic and COVID-19 passed million deaths so this is not an epidemic, not an outbreak, no longer even a pandemic, but a statistic. So this should be renamed to COVID-19 statistic. 2A01:119F:31B:5D00:901:FD57:5FE0:2CF (talk) 15:37, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
.svg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=link}
