Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:14, 3 January 2007

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Because of their length, the previous discussions on this page have been archived. If further archiving is needed, see Misplaced Pages:How to archive a talk page.

Previous discussions:

• Archive 1 (Pre Feb 2005):
• Archive 2 (Nov 28-30 2005) Disclosing Mantra:
• Archive 3 (Nov 30 2005 -Feb 10 2006)
• Archive 4 (Feb-10th May 28, 2006)
• Archive 5 (May-28th June 25, 2006)
• Archive 6 (25th June-19th July 2006)
• Archive 7 (19th July-31 Oct 2006)
• Archive 8 (Nov 1-25 2006)

Newbie question re: keeping track of new comments

Well, I'm back after a week and there is a reasonable amount of new discussion. Question: If I reply or make a comment in a previous "thread", how will anyone know I did so? Is it necessary to track History to tell that someone has made a comment? Thanks! Tanaats 02:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Tanaats. Welcome back. Hope you had a good vacation. To answer your question, as far as I know History is the only way to tell what comments have been added in previous threads. I do regularly check the History so will be alert to any comments you make. TimidGuy 12:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Other allegations regarding TM safety

I propose adding this citation after the DeNaro quote starting with "It was obvious to me that organization was so deeply immersed...".

I also propose adding this section after the "Suit alleges mental health required for safe practice". Otherwise, the TM article can leave people with the false impression that only people with a prior mental health problem are alleged to have developed problems from TM practice...

Other allegations regarding TM safety

Not all allegations about TM's safety posit prior mental health problems. In the same affadavit Attorney DeNaro (see above) also alleges:

"In fact, meditation was used as an excuse (probably valid) by my students for not completing a project much in the way a "virus" or "the flu" debilitates the average college student. The consequences of intensive, or even regular, meditation was so damaging and disruptive to the nervous system, that students could not enroll in, or continue with, regular academic programs,"

"...In early December 1975, while the Maharishi was on campus, I spent a great deal of time trying to persuade him to adopt a more honest, less commercial, approach to meditation, the Sidhi courses, the curricula, the disguised religious element masquerading as a science, inter alia He was aware, apparently for some time, of the problem, suicide attempts, assaults, homicidal ideation, serious psychotic episodes, depressions, inter alia, but his general attitude was to leave it alone or conceal it because the community would lose faith in the TM movement." Tanaats 21:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Yikes. Of course, from my perspective, having been on campus most of the time 1974-present, these statements are bizarre in the extreme. But, in Misplaced Pages, my opinion doesn't count. : (

I think we need to determine if an affidavit is considered a reputable source according to Misplaced Pages guidelines. After all, anyone can write an affidaviit and file it in a court house. Also, in this instance, the affidavit was filed in a suit that was settled out of court. If ultimately we can't agree regarding whether an affidavit is acceptable, we can take it through the various channels of dispute resolution.TimidGuy 21:44, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, the statement is objectively true as written, as DeNaro did in fact allege these things. It's analogous to "Maharishi teaches that the Transcendental Meditation technique comes from the ancient Vedic tradition of India" which is true as written, but could be struck out under the an analogous premise that "anyone can express an opinion about anything" and therefore such opinions are inadmissible. And for another example, Max Planck's statement is just a personal opinion. Or so I see things.

BTW, I respect your own observations, but opinions differ of course. For example, DeNaro's experience is quite congruent with what I experienced and saw all around me on Mallorca/Fiuggi TTC. This is the TTC that Billy Clayton, a "skin boy" at the time, called the "General Hospital" course because so many people were crippled by "heavy unstressing". MMY had to set up "clinics" for the heavy unstressors, where attempts were made to help them with such things as chiropractic and foot massage. One CP went home in such bad shape that his psychiatrist father had him hospitalized. When MMY heard this, he complained in an open meeting about why "such weak people" were allowed on the course in the first place, a response which I now consider to be quite callous in a "blame the victim" mode. I myself went home in such a dissociated state after six months of TTC that I could barely function, which is of course due to something being wrong with *me* according to defacto TMO docrine (since doctrinally there can not possibly be anything "wrong" with TM). And a friend of mine who lived in Fairfield for years is writing a book about her experiences, including the psychological casualties she encountered along the way. Well, enough of the BTW stuff.

Be that as it may, certainly we can check whether affadavits are acceptable. But it seems to me that "anyone can write anything" cuts quite a wide swath. I'm looking forward to exploring this with you.  :) Tanaats 03:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Is the affidavit verifiable? -THB 03:46, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm kind of in a hurry so don't have much time. But here's a quick take. I think opinion is ok if it's been published by a reputable source, such as a mainstream publisher. An affadavit, as I understand it, doesn't have any special standing or authority. I believei that the article in Misplaced Pages on affidavit says that it's considered hearsay. I believe it's not admissible as evidence in court unless both parties agree to it. And generally, it's only used if the affiant isn't available for testimony. In the case of Denaro, I think that the affadavit was superseded by his testimony in court. I'm trying to get transcripts of the testimony and cross examination (since this affidavit keeps cropping up).

In any case, I so appreciate your cordial manner and friendliness. I feel like we can work together, with mutual respect of each other's views, and figure out these things.TimidGuy 16:01, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It is a pretty open and shut case for me. The affidavit is on the same level as any interview, except the person is swearing before a judge that they are telling the truth.

Hi, Sethie. As I understand it, an interview isn't allowed in Misplaced Pages, if by that you mean gathering original quotes. And as far as I know, an affadavit isn't sworn before a judge. (Check out affidavit.] I'd be willing to wager that the affidavit isn't even part of the court documents, since it's not considered admissible evidence, and since in any case the affidavit was superseded by the testimony and cross examination.

If that is what I meant by an interview, yes, I agree with you.... I meant interview more like something that we read in the newspaper or Time magazine kind of interview. Wow- words suck at communicating, don't they?

As for the sworn before a judge, you know what... I assumed that was the case, and boy have my assumptions been oftentimes wrong!

So next we move to wp:V. I don't know if trancenet meets it or not... but, the Skeptics Dictionary certianly does ] and the affidavit is reported there. So unless someone can convince me that a published book, that has it's own wiki article is does not meet WP:V, the information is in. Sethie 19:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem with Carroll's book: it's filled with errors. For example, he says that Bob Rabinoff did a study on the Maharishi Effect related to crime, accidents, and crop production. No such study exists. There is no record of it in any index of scientific literature. He simply has that wrong. And he misrepresents what Randi says in his book.TimidGuy 01:46, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Boy, do I hear that Timidguy... i oftentimes don't like what sources say, disagree with them and sometimes find factual errors in them as well.

I am not willing to comment overall on Carroll's book, that is too big a subject for me to tackle.... What I feel moved to say is IF some of Carroll's book is cited AND you find another source that contradicts the specific item from Caroll's book, PLEASE include it as well. That's what wikipedia is for me.... not truth, nowhere NEAR truth, but a collection of cited claims. Sethie 02:17, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point, Sethie -- and nicely articulated -- and shows clear understanding of Misplaced Pages.

Regarding the proposed addition: it seems weak to me. It just doesn't seem like the sort of reliable evidence that can make Misplaced Pages strong. The affadavit is a 20-year-old document of no special authority written by a disgruntled former employee who last set foot on campus over 30 years ago; published in part by a heavily biased book that has many careless errors of fact; and filed in a suit whose allegations of infliction of psychological injuries and emotional distress were dismissed by the judge for lack of credible evidence.

Timidguy, you and Sethie know more about Misplaced Pages so I'm mostly bowing out (just for now though!) However, I'd like to commment on the above...(1) The affidavit being 20 years old doesn't make it inaccurate, (2) the fact that it occurred some 30 years ago doesn't make it inaccurate, (3) DeNaro was corporate counsel to a TMO organization headquartered at MIU as well as an MIU instructor, which IMO gives his statements quite a bit of "authority", (4) Being "disgruntled" doesn't make him any less objective and accurate than someone who is "gruntled" (and although I know you don't mean it this way yourself it is a common form of attack used by cults to call whistleblowers "disgruntled" as if that affected the accuracy of the whistleblowing), (5) Carroll is *certainly* no more "biased" than the TMO webpages that are often cited in the TM article, (6) Whether or not there are errors in Carroll's book doesn't of itself entirely invalidate the book as a reference, (7) The outcome of the suit doesn't mean that DeNaro's statements were inaccurate, (8) The *personal opinions* (and that's what they amount to) of a judge do not make DeNaro's claims inaccurate -- judges make mistakes all the time and as far as we know this may be one of them -- in fact it is extraordinarly difficult to obtain a favorable judgement against organizations where participation results in psychological harm because, for example, of the "they're just disgruntled" and "they must have had prior psychological problems" gambits -- a judge is just not professionally qualified to judge whether or not the problems instead might have been caused by, for example, excessive induced dissociation via TM practice many times a day for perhaps years at a time.

In short, IMO none of this affects whether or not Carroll's quotes of DeNaro are citable. Tanaats 21:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel bad to always be opposing you guys. It's not my nature. And I do think there are some valid points that can be made. But it just doesn't seem like this is one of them.TimidGuy 16:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I hear that .... and, my answer is: no.

"I hear that" means I get your pain, dislike and concern about the source. "I hear that" means I oftentimes feel the same way about sources!

"No" means I won't go there with you on this disucssion page. "No" means that for me, your or my commentary about a source is origonal research. love, Sethie 18:20, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dittos. I have pain, dislike, and concern about TMO sources. They are extremely biased and mostly contain only the personal opinions (that's what his "teachings" amount to) of MMY. But I accept that the TMO side of the story must be told, biased and *completely* unverifiable (except by quoting biased TMO sources) as much of it is. Similarly, I believe that the other side of the story must be given a "level playing field". Tanaats 21:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I hear you. : ) TimidGuy 21:02, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Carroll's credibility has gone up, IMO. I wrote to him asking for a citation for his statement regarding Dr. Rabinoff's research. He wrote back: "Go to pages 99ff in James Randi's "Flim-Flam!" and the account of Rainoff's claims is found there. He made these claims in a talk at the University of Oregon attended by Ray Hyman."

Which explains why it couldn't be found in a pub search. Tanaats 23:42, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Errrrr! Frustration!!! I am pretty sure about a year about I cited it! I could be wrong here....

Regardless, That's cool you wrote to him! Sethie 23:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a couple quick points. As I understand it, Denaro apparently never worked as legal counsel for the university. I've spoken with Steve Druker, who hired him. And I don't think that teaching a couple courses at MIU makes him an authority. (If I thought that an affidavit was a valid source in Misplaced Pages, I'd write my own, based on my 16 years of experience in the classroom here, and I'd rebut him.)

Yes, I have Randi's book. It doesn't say that Rabinoff did a study. Carroll has that wrong. It's a good example of a half truth. Rabinoff may have made claims at the University of Oregon that Randi wasn't able to substantiate (as is mentioned in the Misplaced Pages article on the TM-Sidhi program). But Carroll then twists that to say that Rabinoff did a study. Then Carroll writes that Randi concludes that Rabinoff made up the data. Randi doesn't conclude that. The way that Carroll presents it, the reader comes away with the impression that Rabinoff published a study and made up the data. He misrepresents in small ways what Randi says, and to my mind it conveys something untrue to the reader.

I'm not accusing Carroll of deliberately doing this; he may simply have misread Randi. Or not read it carefully. But it's one of a number of instances where he's inaccurate in the TM article. And I believe that that affects the reliability of his book as a source.

Also, I believe that "the TM side of the story" is verifiable, because there are 160 peer-reviewed studies. (I don't, however, deny your experience with TM.)

In any case, I'm pleased that you read closely what I wrote, especially that you attended to the point about the judgment of the appellate court. I've noticed that often in these discussions we often just scan what the other person says and respond quickly. I've been guilty of this.TimidGuy 12:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Would you be willing, Timidguy, to cease posting your thoughts and comments about a source, here, and instead post actual citations that refute the claims of that source?

If you are not willing or able to do that, would you be willing to explain to, how your pesonal thoughts/feelings/views/response to a source, are not origonal research?Sethie 18:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. I don't quite understand why you're asking me to cease posting relevant information about a source. I thought that was the purpose of the Talk page. And I don't understand the sense in which what I've posted constitutes my personal views. I thought I did a good job of presenting facts about affidavits, etc.

And I don't undertand why I can't research some of these points in order to determine the merit of a source. I thought the purpose of the Talk page is to bring to bear relevant facts to determine whether or not a source is reliable. And doesn't the guideline on original research just apply to the article itself? TimidGuy 20:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I have a buncha' responses, but I'll wait and listen to you guys discuss this first. Tanaats 21:27, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, given that you're more experienced with Misplaced Pages than I am, it would be great if you could explain the merger process to me sometime. Do we simply wait for a length of time and then if no one has come to discuss, go ahead and do it? Thanks much. TimidGuy 21:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for asking. And my answer is still no. If you believe that your own research about a source is relevant and worthwhile component to wikipedia, I have no wish to engage in dialogue with you around this topic.

And so, let me make my request more clear, would you be willing to cease your origonal research HERE and find a REPUTABLE source (sorry I don't consider you or me to be one) that shares your disdain for the skeptics dictionary?Sethie 23:03, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. According the guideline on Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, it's up to the editor who proposes to add material to prove its reliability: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material."

Also, I was just noticing that the specific paragraphs that Tanaats proposed to add don't appear in the Skepic's Dictionary.

I think this has been a useful discussion, and I appreciate the contributions of both of you. I'm learning a lot. It feels like we've reached a bit of an impasse. It might be interersting and educational to try the dispute procedures. We could do a formal Request for Comment, following the guidelines given.TimidGuy 12:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

First, I would like to thank you for moving the disucssion away from your thoughts and towards wiikipedia policy and the actual article... hence I find more willingness to dialogue with you.

I would also like to say you are correct I was in error- the same material is not covered in both sources (trancenet and skeptics dictionary). For me this discussion is about using material from the Skeptics Dictionary.

I'm cool with that!  :) Tanaats 20:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:V is a peace of cake for me in this case. If you are able to, please let me know how "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material" is an issue here? It's not like I'm saying, "Denarro said MMY is an alien from Mars." I would say, Denarro said xyz, cut and paste from the skeptics dictonary, and add citation.

My challenge to you is to respond to the above paragraph without going into OR (i.e your thoughts about Denarro, the situation, affidavits, and the Skeptics Dictionary).

You are welcome to do a Rfc. This page has had roughly 4 in the last year. I don't believe a single one drew in any outside comments. Sethie 18:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. I'm glad you feel the discussion is moving forward. And it's good to have your longer-term insight regarding the effectiveness of RfC.

The reason I mentioned WP:V is that you asked me to find a reputable source that says that The Skeptic's Dictionary is not a reliable source. I pointed out that it's up to the person who wants to cite the source to show that it's reliable. The burden of evidence lies with that person. As I underestand Misplaced Pages guidelines, I'm not obligated to prove that it's not reliable.TimidGuy 20:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If you are willing, please refer me to the wikipedia guideline that says the that "it is up to the person who wants to cite the source to show that it's a reliable source."

If you are willing, please show me a wikipedia policy which say "The burden of evidence lies with that person."Sethie 20:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. According the guideline on Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material."

Your response does not answer my 2 question. Are you not willing to answer it? Or are you not able to?

Your allegation 2 paragraphs above say that this "burden of evidence" in WP:V means "it is up to the person who wants to cite the source to show that it's a reliable source." I asked you to refference this claim. You did not. You just cut and pasted a quote. Please try again, or say, "I cannot answer your questions, because not such policy exists." or "I cannot answer that question, because I cannot find such a policy." Sethie 16:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

See your question #1. You asked me to cite a Misplaced Pages policy for the statement "The burden of evidence lies with that person." I can't find anyplace where I said that. I assumed you meant the instance in which I quoted this from Misplaced Pages: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." So I provided the citation for that.

Incorrect, Timidguy, if you go in sequential order, my first question was ":::If you are willing, please refer me to the wikipedia guideline that says the that "it is up to the person who wants to cite the source to show that it's a reliable source."

Yes, I was responding to your second question.TimidGuy 19:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

If you cannot find where you said "that" I reffer you to, well, you, where you said both statements that I questioned. In fact I just cut and pasted your exact words: "::The reason I mentioned WP:V is that you asked me to find a reputable source that says that The Skeptic's Dictionary is not a reliable source. I pointed out that it's up to the person who wants to cite the source to show that it's reliable. The burden of evidence lies with that person. As I underestand Misplaced Pages guidelines, I'm not obligated to prove that it's not reliable.TimidGuy 20:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)"

I think you're right that my paraphrase of that guideline may not have been apt in this situation. I need to look at the guideline and consider it futher. (Can't do it now -- am heading off to play tennis.) I was just looking at the Misplaced Pages guideline on Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources. Let's give that some attention.

As for apt paraphrase or not, my only comment is that I cannott (and thus far, neither can you) find any wiki policy which says: "it's up to the person who wants to cite the source to show that it's reliable. The burden of evidence lies with that person."

Assume you understand that that was a paraphrase and that I wasn't quoting guidelines in that instance. (Which is why it didn't have quotation marks around it.)

I never said you were quoting guidelines. I am said you said: I pointed out that it's up to the person who wants to cite the source to show that it's reliable. The burden of evidence lies with that person. As I underestand Misplaced Pages guidelines, I'm not obligated to prove that it's not reliable.Sethie 19:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as moving on to reliable_sources, I am willing to do that, if you are sure you are done with WP:V as an objection for the Skeptics Dictionary. Otherwise I would like to finish here before moving on. Please indicate clearly whether you are done with you contention that that including the Skeptics Dictionary violates WP:V.

It's good we're discussing this. Thanks for sticking with it. Maybe once we have a good understanding of what constitutes reliable sources, we can scrutinize all of the sources cited in the article. TimidGuy 16:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Ask me later, I may or may not be up for that.Sethie 17:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding WP:V, I think this quote applies: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." In my opinion, Skeptic's Dictionary falls down on this matter. Carroll gets a number of facts wrong. I've given one example, in which he says,"One TM study by a MUM physics professor, Dr. Robert Rabinoff, claimed that the Maharishi effect was responsible for reducing crime and accidents while simultaneously increasing crop production in the vicinity of Maharishi University in Fairfield, Iowa." Rabinoff didn't do such a study. I can cite other errors.TimidGuy 19:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know that you want to focus on wp:V right now.

Please show me a wikipedia WP:V policy which says, If a source gets one fact wrong (according to a wikipedia editor) , that source violates WP:V, and cannot be used. Sethie 19:56, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

HEY: This discussion is ridiculous to the point of being embarrassing.

Misplaced Pages is not even asserting that DeNaro is correct, only that he made the statements, that the statements are relevant to the topic, and that he is a credible source.

The guy wasn't some homeless guy off the street who swore a crazy affidavit, nor was he just some "employee" like the janitor. He was the outfit's corporate lawyer--one of the insiders, one of the bigwigs--and he he blew the whistle on this racket. Like, DUHHH: that would be an authoritative source to the New York Times, the Washington Post, or anybody else writing about this.

On TOP of that, he didn't just give a press conference; he swore under penalty of perjury that he's telling the truth! AND: up until the day he quit in disgust, he was the LEGAL SPOKESMAN for this outfit.

Had you read the discussion, you would have seen that it's a matter of dispute whether he worked as legal counsel for the university.TimidGuy 12:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

But he's not a credible source? That's exactly like calling Nixon's ex-lawyer John Dean not a credible source.

---> It's not possible for a source to BE more credible

What would it take for this guy to be credible enough for wikipedia? A lie-detector test? Winning the Nobel Prize in "veracity"? He ALREADY swore on a bible!

Or shall we only allow statements by his Holiness The Great Oz-Maharishi on matters like walking through walls, flying through the air, and making yourself invisible?

God DAMN, this is the stupidest conversation I've ever heard between people who weren't retarded.Sys Hax 23:27, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for chiming in Sys Hax.

First off, please remain civil, this page has been through enough shi-crap.

The discussion currently is not about Denarro as a credible source. It is about whether the Skeptic's Dictionary, where his affidavit is quoted violates WP:V, so, are you willing, for now, to focus your attention there? And are you willing to reframe from deragotory and sarcastic comments like the last three? Sethie 00:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Sethie and Tanaats. The comments of SysHax highlight what I like about you guys. You have both been honorable and decent and fair and civil.TimidGuy 12:25, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

And now, to continue our discussion. Carroll has many facts wrong. Just looking at the sentence I quoted, there are two additional errors. Rabinoff hasn't been on faculty since the early 1980s. So the sentence should have stipulated that he was former faculty. And that he taught at MIU, not MUM. There are many additional errors.

The Misplaced Pages policy says that sources should have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. Carroll has three errors in one sentence that just a small amount of fact checking could have corrected. It would only have taken one quick phone call. And I believe that one purpose of the Talk page is to discuss the reliability of souruces.

Thank you for refferencing actual wikipedia policy.

Now, please show me where the wikipedia policy says that the opinion of a wiki editor is how we make that determination. You keep sharing your opinion of the source!

So.... reliable or not.... On the one hand, the guy has a Ph.D., he is on the faculty for a community college, his book has been published by a company publishing books for over 200 years, appears to be a reputable publisher (they did publish Poe and Melville....) ] and the book itself has it's own wiki with no criticism listed!

On the other hand, we have a WP:SPA, who has misquoted wiki policy during this discussion, (direct quotes from you: I pointed out that it's up to the person who wants to cite the source to show that it's reliable. The burden of evidence lies with that person. As I underestand Misplaced Pages guidelines, I'm not obligated to prove that it's not reliable; it's up to the editor who proposes to add material to prove its reliability: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material."), looked to side issues from the start (is an affidavit a credible source? instead of is the place it is listed credible?; since it was filed out of court, blah blah blah; was his affidavit "superseded" by court decisions?)

And, other then you, there is no evidence that it is a source of dubious reliability.

I believe I have been paitent, and I have had enough of this dialogue. I'm going to put it in as a source. If you don't like it, find some other wikipediaians who believe in your cause, who are not WP:SPA's who have a little more experience then you and I'll dialogue this with them.Sethie 16:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. I believe my critical examination of the reliability of a source is exactly what the Talk page is for. If you disagree, maybe you could show me a guideline that says it's disallowed. And I've noted errors that anyone could easily verify with a phone call. This just isn't the sort of source that should be represented in Misplaced Pages, at least as regards what it says on Transcendental Meditation.

And frankly, I do feel that editors should take great care in presenting sources that are reliable. That's the spirit of Misplaced Pages. And they should be grateful if someone points out that a source they'd like to cite has serious problems with facts. I think that it could be argued that that guideline does apply: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material." It's saying that any information that's added should be sourced. And later it says that that source should have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. How can you sincerely believe that The Skeptic's Dictionary is accurate and has had the facts checked after I've pointed out three errors in one sentence? And earlier pointed out a fourth error in the same paragraph. That's four errors in just one paragraph.

So what do you say -- let's do an RfC. We'll focus it on the reliability of the Skeptic's Dictionary. I'll invite two neutral Admins who've been here before to comment. We can each state our case. TimidGuy 22:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The fascinating thing is that you keep thinking it is your job to evaluate the CONTENT of the source, and not the source itself. The moment you leave out content and focus your attention where it belongs, on the source, on the author, on the publisher I'll discuss with you.

And by all means, invite LOTS of people here. Sethie 00:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course, one might argue that one evaluates a source by evaluating the quality of its content. And, yes I believe that's our job as edtiors.

I'll work on documenting my case for the RfC over the next few days. It will be great to get some outside feedback. I feel like we've raised a lot of good points and have learned in the process -- all in the service of making Wikipedai better.

I do wish you had waited until going through the dispute procedures rather than starting an edit war.TimidGuy 12:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It's true you believe that is your job here.

And if you want to look to the start of an "edit war" my reccomendation would be to look to the person who did the first revert.... and that would be you.

Concensus does not mean "everyone agrees." Tanaats, me and I'll give a half vote to sys hax outweight you're one vote.Sethie 16:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and added rebuttals to this new section while I look into doing an RfC.TimidGuy 17:48, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I just noted you think you need to "document my case for the RfC." Feel free to do the RfC the Timidguy way- and if you want to do it the wikipedia way, I suggest you read and follow the four simple steps ] Sethie 18:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. Not sure I understand. I had looked at the steps, and I understood we create a section here on the Talk page in which we each make a statement regarding our point of view. Since I'm going to be arguing that Carroll has errors of fact, uses problematic sources, and has unsupported statements, I was just saying that it'll take a few days to write that up. I've asked an Admin whether RfC is an appropriate venue for this sort of documentation. It could be several hundred words.TimidGuy 19:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

An RfC need not be hundreds of words long. Something like "Is the Skeptics Dictionary a reliable source?" would be sufficient. Then, on this page, everybody can (briefly) make their cases.

My own opinion is that Carroll is a notable critic. If we were dicussing something that he himself had said then I'd say we should include it with attribution. ("Carroll says that..."). The threshold for using him for 3rd-party information is somewhat higher. One editor here says that there are mistakes in Carrroll's work, which is probably true. Mistakes matter, but everyone makes them. I haven't seen any evidence that the Rabinoff assertion is actually a mistake, or that it has been brought to Carroll's attention for correction. Without more definitive information on those mistakes we shouldn't give the issue too much weight. Finally, the Misplaced Pages community has expressed a certain amount of confidence in the Skeptics Dictionary - the website is linked to from over a hundred articles and a couple of hundred talk pages. So my overall impression is that this particular use of the Skeptics Dictionary is appropriate, pending further information.

Separately, some of the editors of this page appear to be either involved in the movement or involved in active opposition to it. Such involved parties have a heightened responsibility to follow WP:NPOV and WP:NOR. We're not here to prove that TM is right or wrong, we're just here to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest is a relevant guideline. -Will Beback · † · 21:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks much, Will. It's great to have your feedback. And thanks especially for the guideline on Conflict of Interest.TimidGuy 22:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the sort of feedback I was hoping to get by doing an RfC. So I don't think I'll take the time to document the problems with Carroll's article on TM. Sounds like it would be a hard sell.TimidGuy 01:36, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Considering Denaro to be a credible source is a bit of a stretch. In another part of his "sworn affidavit," he explicitly compares MMY to Jim Jones and says that MMY is more dangerous.Sparaig 03:22, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

That is quite bit passionate of him, and I happen not to agree. For example, I think that Scientology is much much more dangerous than the TMO, for example. You have to have raw physical and psychological courage to oppose Scientology. However to me his statement just reinforces that he did witness significant human damage, which is reasonable to me because so did I. And so did my friend who lived in FF for years and got the reputation for being someone a person could go to for support and sympathy after they'd crashed and burned (she's writing a book about it and I hope it sells). You can quote DeNaro as saying the JJ thing and let the reader draw their own conclusions. The issue, as I understand TimidGuy to say, is whether the entire affadavit is admissible to the article even if the case was dismissed. And TimidGuy is going to consult the WP legal system about that, which is of course the right thing to do if he feels that way. IMO we'll just have to wait and see what they say. Tanaats 03:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I recall what you said about your OWN issues with TM many years ago. You blamed MMY for everything:

From: Joe Kellett - view profile

Date: Thurs, Nov 18 1993 10:09 pm

Not yet rated

show options

Subject: Re: Witnessing

Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental

References: <jcookCGDI00.GBE@netcom.com>

Organization: Netcom

James Cook (j...@netcom.com) wrote:

<deletions>

You said you were pleased when it happened. But . . . yes, I would

certainly guess that you have a revised interpretation now. You've

explained how you've consulted with psychologists and cult rescue guys

that have helped you conclude that you may have been psychotic back then .

. . . as evidenced by your two-people-in-one analogy.

You're probably thinking of me. I have consulted via telephone with Pat Ryan at TM-Ex who is a professional "exit counsellor" (a "cult-rescue guy"). He specializes in, but is not limited to, TM. I have also consulted in person with two psychologists specializing in cult mind control. One these is, of course, Dr. Singer. The other is a former Moonie with a license at the Master's level who also does "exit counselling".

As for "psychotic"... After TTC I experienced:

(1) That I was a "rishi" (sort of "seer of cosmic truth").

(2) That I was an "incarnated deva" (analagous to the Western concept of "angel"). This meant that I was of a completely different order than ordinary humans.

(3) That I had been personal buddies with MMY back in the _un_incarnated "deva" days since he was also a "deva" rather than human. Furthermore, because of my special nature I was to play a special role with MMY in the Movement.

Of course, I went to "verify this with the Master".

When I told MMY I was a "rishi", he said I was right. When I approached him that same night to tell him the other stuff, he said "Stop, what you have in your mind is right" and walked off.

I now consider these experiences to have been the result of TM-induced psychosis. But regardless of the cause, I consider MMY's handling of my "experiences" to demonstrate either incompetence or maliciousness on his part.

But I am aware that there are TM explanations predicated on my "weakness" and on MMY's infallibility and impeccability.

--Joe

--

Joe Kellett

jkell...@netcom.com

As I recall, MMY's instruction to you was "go and be practical in Society" which YOU took to mean that you should go and indulge in fantasies that you were "special" because you happened to have some intution that fit in with what many mainstream Hindus believe about what EVERY mortal is: a former deva who decided to incarnate so he could grow and get on with the business of becoming enlightened. As the kid (Brahma) once said to Indra: "See that line of ants marching by, each one of them was once Indra also." I find that MOST, perhaps not all, but certainly MOST people who complain about how TM ruined their lives are like Indra: quite full of themselves while they are up, and blaming everyone BUT themselves when they are down.Sparaig 17:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Dhyana?

While we're discussing the above, I'd like to start a new thread. I have a problem with the sentence "TM is considered a form of "dhyana", using the terminology of Patanjali." This is certainly disputable, e.g. the paragraph goes on to say that the TM meaning of "dhyana" is different from the generally accepted definition. Furthermore, it is too general. *Who* exactly considers it to be a form of dhyana? Tanaats 04:15, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Tanaats. I'd actually like to delete this because I don't think it is a form of dhyana. I don't think Maharishi ever presented it as such.TimidGuy 12:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi TimidGuy. Shall I go ahead and do it? It will also take out a reference to "effortlessness", but I think that point is made right at the beginning of the page. Tanaats 21:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please do. Thanks.TimidGuy 12:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ooops, I didn't see you edit summary comment that I should reference the Talk page in time. Tanaats 20:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I put in the reference to dhyana. In his book, Science of Being and the Art of Living, MMY refers to "transcendental deep meditation" as the "simplest and most important form of dhyana," or words very close to that. Sparaig 23:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I would then support "Maharishi teaches that TM is a form of dhyana", with a reference to SBAL. "Maharishi teaches" is more NPOV. Tanaats 23:23, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I double-checked. At least the latest version doesn't mention dhyana, but his Gita commentary refers to dhyana as "meditation." The Yoga sutras can be interpretted to support the interpretation of TM as dhyana:

http://www.bindu.freeserve.co.uk/yoga/yogasutra/ys1_comments.htm#sutra1.12

yathAbhimatadhyAnAdvA /desired; dhyànàt = by meditating; và = or]. An MMY-esque interpretation would be something like "or by using any attractive object of meditation." IOW, any object of attention that attracts the attention inward can be used to meditate, though TM itself uses traditional mantras. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sparaig (talk • contribs) 01:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

The Gita commentary is still only MMY's opinion, and should be stated as such. Your interpretation of the yoga sutras is OR in my opinion and therefore "inadmissable". FWIW, according to to Dhyana "Dhyana is distinct from Dharana in that the meditator becomes one with the object of meditation and is able to maintain this oneness for 144 inhalations and expirations." I think this would leave TM out. Tanaats 01:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Boy, talk about your uncited sources... There's no mention of "144 inhalations and exhalations" in the Yoga Sutras, and no citation is given for that claim in the mini-article on Hindu dhyana or in the main reference (which is where the link actually takes me). And the URL I gave offers several different translations, including several that approach what I stated:

http://www.bindu.freeserve.co.uk/yoga/yogasutra/ys1_comments.htm#sutra1.39

yathAbhimatadhyAnAdvA

yatha = as; abhimata = per choice /desired; dhyànàt = by meditating; và = or

Translations:

Any enquiry of interest can calm the mind.

Or through meditation (dhyàna) as desired.

Or by contemplating on whatsoever thing one may like (the mind becomes stable).

Or, by meditating according to one's predilection.

Or by meditating on anything one chooses that is elevating .

Or by meditation as desired.

Sparaig 05:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Cool, the source is indeed uncited and I'm no expert and if you disagree with it I'll certainly drop it. So...so far AFAIK the only source we've identified for "dhyana is meditation" (not, mind you, a specific kind of meditation but just "meditation" in general) is MMY. And while your analysis may of course be entirely correct, it is still OR. So I'm still left with thinking that "Maharishi teaches that TM is a form of dhyana" is as far as we have evidence to go. Tanaats 05:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sparaig. You haven't been here in a while. Welcome. I guess I agree with Tanaats. We need a published source. And no one that I've talked to has any recollection of Maharishi talking about Dhyana in the context of Transcendental Meditation. He has spoken about it in the context of the TM-Sidhi program, but that's a different technique. If you can cite a particular statement from his commentary on the Gita, then or course that would suffice. In any case, what you had written was nice, especially the characterization of the effortlessness of the technique.TimidGuy 17:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I think references to dhyan have been edited out of all recent editions of MMY's remarks. He used to refer to TM as "easy concentration" 50 years ago, and has since refined his terminology, as another example of how he's changed TM-speak over the years. Ah... Here we go:

http://www.enmag.org/05/5bkreview.htm

Maharishi Speaks to Students: Mastery Over Natural Law

"Atma, the Self of every student—Transcendental Consciousness— is the ocean of knowledge, power and bliss. It should be fully enlivened through Dhyan and Gyan—Dhyan, experience of Atma through Transcendental Meditation; and Gyan—understanding Atma through intellectual study of the Veda and Vedic Literature." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sparaig (talk • contribs) 19:57, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Again, that would only support the statement "Maharishi teaches that TM is a form of dhyana". So go ahead and put that in with the source of the quote above, sez I. Tanaats 20:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm stupid. I searched the Amazon.com entry for MMY's COmmentary on the Gita and apparently mispelled "dhyana" the first time around. It's still in there:

page 468 "...ends the sith chapter, entitled: The yoga of Meditation, Dhyana Yoga...:

from Back Matter "...The lesson on this process of meditation (dhyana)..."

from Back Matter "...state of yoga belongs not only to dhyana, or meditation, which alone appears to result directly in samadhi,..."

Sparaig 20:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent research. This is really clear. I'd say put that section back in. It should be easy to grab it from the history. And it would be great if you could write the bibliographical citations. If you wouldn't mind, it would be great to reference both.TimidGuy 21:04, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Excellent research indeed. I'd still want to say something like "Maharishi teaches that TM is a form of dhyana". That is the extent of the support given by both citations. Tanaats 21:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the objection that dhyana is NOT "meditation" or that it is ONLY MMY's translation of the term, is kinda silly. "Meditation" is THE standard way of translating the Sanskrit word "dhyana" into English. Google dhyana meditation.. Sparaig 17:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

It may be the "standard" way of making the translation. But I suspect that much subtlety of meaning is lost in the translation. At least I get that strong impression from the Dhyana in Hinduism article. And in Yoga Sutras of Patanjali we find

The eight "limbs" or steps are: Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, Pratyahara, Dharana, Dhyana and Samadhi. A number of commentators break these eight steps into two categories. Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, and Pratyahara comprise the first category. The second category, called Samyama is comprised of Dharana, Dhyana and Samadhi. The division between the two categories exists because in latter three mentioned steps there is no cognizance whereas in the first five steps cognizance exists.

Neither is sourced, but I'm sure you could check out the Patanjali stuff, in particular, if you want and tell us what you find. In the meantime, I think I'm justified in thinking that "dhyana" is a subset of "meditation". Tanaats 18:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

My favorite generic website on the Yoga Sutras (it provides parallel translations from 8 different authors, designated by "") says:

YS 2.29

yamaniyamàsanapràõàyàmapratyàhàradhàraõàdhyànasamàdhayo 'ùñàvaïgàni

yama - attitudes towards others or towards our environment; niyama - attitudes towards oneself; àsana - practice of postures; pràõàyàma - practice of breathing exercises; pratyàhàra - withdrawal of the senses; dhàraõà - concentration; dhyàna - meditation; samàdhayaþ - contemplation, absorption; aùñau - eight; aïgàni - limbs

Translations:

The eight limbs of yoga re: respect towards others, self-restraint, posture, breath control, detaching at will from the senses, concentration, meditation and contemplation.

There are eight components of yoga. These are: 1) yama - our attitudes towards our environment; 2) niyama - our attitudes towards ourselves; 3) àsana - the practice of body exercises; 4) pràõàyàma - the practice of breathing exercises; 5) pratyàhàra - the restraint of our senses; 6) dhàraõà - the ability to direct our minds; 7) dhyàna - the ability to develop interactions with what we seek to understand; 8) samàdhi - complete integration with the object to be understood.

Discipline, restraint, posture, breath control, sense withdrawal, concentration, meditation, and ecstasy are the eight limbs .

Restraint, observance, posture, regulation of breath, withholding of senses, fixity, meditation and perfect concentration are the eight means of attaining yoga.

Restraint, observance, posture, regulation of breath, abstraction , concentration, meditation, and trance are the eight accessories of yoga.

The eight limbs of yoga are abstinence, observance, posture, breath control, sense withdrawal, concentration, meditation, contemplation/absorption or superconscious state.

Self-restraints, fixed observances, posture, regulation of breath, abstraction, concentration, contemplation, trance are the eight parts (of the self discipline of yoga).

MMY's own interpretation of Dhrana, Dhyana and Samadhi was discussed in Hankey's article. Samayama, MMY defines as "maintainance, motion and samadhi," and it is the technique used with Yogic Flying and so on, as per the Yoga Sutras, Chapter 3 though of course, his understanding of samyama is somewhat different than those mentioned on that website. Sparaig 19:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I accept that MMY interprets and defines as you suggest. As far as I'm concerned, you can go ahead and put that in the article, including the fact that it is MMY's interpretation and definition, sourced by Hankey. I don't know why we're still dancing around this since if we ignore your inadmissible OR you can't substantiate anything else. I'm going to stop discussing this. If you put anything else in the article then we are going to dispute resolution. End of discussion. Tanaats 19:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Is Transcendental Meditation a religion?

I propose adding the following to "Is Transcendental Meditation a Religion?" ...

The TM movement offers "yagyas". Also called a Yajna, a yagya "is performed to please the Devas, or sometimes to the Supreme Spirit Brahman."

Official TM teachings include teachings about "God", e.g.: "All the Maharishi Yagya programs are with reference to Natural Law -- the Will of God. It is very necessary for anyone who is entertaining the Maharishi Yagya programs to align their life to the rules of purity of life, as they understand purity of life.". "The sixth state is referred to as God consciousness, because the individual is capable of perceiving and appreciating the full range and mechanics of creation and experiences waves of love and devotion for the creation and its creator.". "God is found in two phases of reality: as a supreme being of absolute, eternal nature and as a personal God at the highest level of phenomenal creation!" (Science of Being and Art of Living, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Rev. Ed. 1967, p. 271). "The solution, Maharishi said, is groups of Yogic Flyers. The impact of the groups will be immediate and clear. 'A new destiny of mankind will dawn when Total Natural Law -- the Constitution of the Universe, the Divine Will of God -- which is present in every grain of creation -- rules the world of human beings as it rules the ever-expanding universe.'". Tanaats 22:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

You have great sources there- the TM organization itself. I propose not creating a new section, just adding it under the current religion section. This material was there, including more of the Hindu/Vedic components of TM, well sourced, until someone removed them. Sethie 23:24, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yes. I wasn't clear. I was indeed thinking to put it at the bottom of the current Religion section. Tanaats 01:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Clearly this is not a reliable source!!! Just joking. : ) I think this proposed section is fair and could be added. (Though I or someone may eventually add a point or two to try to qualify the statements.)

The question is where to add it. Note that I've divided the Criticism section into two parts, those more directly related to TM and those related to other programs Maharishi has introduced. Maybe it could be divided between the two sections.TimidGuy 12:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that it belongs in the "Religion?" section. Putting it anywhere else would make it quite a bit "out of context". Also it relates most directly to the "Religion?" issue. As for posting qualifications, of course the section should be NPOV (see, I'm learning the lingo!). Tanaats 20:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)\

We could create a new section in the "Other related controversies section" for the point about Yagyas. The heading could be "Are Yagyas religious ceremonies?" It would really be great if we could avoid confusing people by letting them know which controversies are directly relatled to TM and which are related to other programs. Yes, of course, any qualifying ponts would cite sources. TimidGuy 22:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Ok, as I understand where we are: "yagyas" go in the new section under "Controversies" and the rest of the proposed text goes at the bottom of "Religion?". If that's agreed shall I go ahead and make the edits? Tanaats 01:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Are Yagyas religious ceremonies is a great subject for the Yagya page, Timidguy, if you want to pursue that topic please take it up there. The bottom line is the TM yagya website uses "religious" language. So keep it with the religions section. Sethie 01:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've thought about this further and I'm going to flip-flop on this. In my very strong opinion "TM" does not just refer to "TM-the-technique". When people are taught TM-the-technique they are also taught the religous concept of "Cosmic Consciousness" during the 3rd group meeting after initiation. This is their introduction to "TM-the-religion". So TM-the-technique is never packaged apart from TM-the-religion, and I therefore consider the term "TM" to apply to both. Furthermore, I consider everything taught as part of TM-the-religion, including yagyas, to therefore be part of "TM". So I would like to see the "yagya" reference under the "Is TM a religion?" section. Tanaats 20:55, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It was already there and a (neutral) user by the name of Jefffire deleted it saying it was irrelevant. I think this is representing your personal point of view and distorts the logic of the article. A yagya is not Transcendental Meditation. Why confuse readers? It would be one thing if I were saying it shouldn't be in the article. But I've acquiesced. And I even suggested a subhead that used the word religion. This properly belongs in the Other programs section. I've worked hard to clarify the logic of the article by roeroganizing it. Please don't impose your logic and your POV. You're already well represented in the article, being quoted twice. There's a link to your web site. You shouldn't generalize your experience and opinion, and cast everything in terms of it.TimidGuy 21:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Why on Earth would we give a sub-heading for something that will take up 2 sentences?Sethie 06:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of truth and logic?TimidGuy 12:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Nice dodge of the question, with an implied insult. Try again.Sethie 16:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry. Sethie, I didn't mean to imply an insult. I feel like I've given a rationale regarding the logical structure of the article and that we should address that point. In fact, if this gets added, I'd like to lengthen it a bit by given a brief context regarding what a yagya is. So it would be more than a couple sentences.TimidGuy 16:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a clarification that judge Meanor was the lower court judge and that the appellate court judge determined that the puja was a secular ceremony.TimidGuy 12:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

He did not DETERMINE it was a secular ceremony, he said it was. Big difference. Sethie 16:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I should be more careful with my wording.

Ok, since yagyas are not "TM", how about creating a "Maharishi Yagya Program" (or whatever its official title is) page, and I can put my "yagya" sentence there? And of course an exposition of what the offering is can be placed there as well. Tanaats 01:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes! let's do it. Thanks much.

And I could put the rest of my "religion" stuff in the "Religion?" section in the TM article. Tanaats 01:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I rather like those quotes.TimidGuy 16:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think that means I can go ahead and do it, so I did. :)

Oops, I included the yagya quote. Just took it out. Saving it for the new yagya page. Tanaats 20:08, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I rather like those quotes too. I got into the whole thing for the spiritual stuff. I used to go to SRM meetings in Santa Monica to hear Charlie Lutes (sheesh! -- he was quite something). At my TTC we heard a tape in which MMY said that someday we could all drop the "science" angle and return to the old-time "spiritual" angle when dealing with the public, but that right now the world was ready for science and not ready for spirituality. I found myself wishing that day would come soon. With all the "God" stuff appearing on TMO web pages maybe he's drifting that way already. But you have to look carefully for that sort of stuff, the PR push is still using what I consider the "science spin". Tanaats 02:22, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

ok, everyone, thanks.... points taken, but being of a stubborn nature, and thinking this is important want to pursue this in terms of information somewhere were its appropriate .... again thanks (olive 03:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC))

Need reference to "SCI"

How about changing "...teaching of the theory and philosophy of the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)..." to ..."teaching of the theory and philosophy of the Science of Creative Intelligence (SCI)..."? Otherwise the reference to SCI will be a mystery to many readers Tanaats 20:50, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Great idea. Please do.TimidGuy 22:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Done! Tanaats 01:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Added further info

I have added a quot from a Canadian Newspaper by former TM teacher (and current wiki editor) Joe Kellet/Tanats. Nice interview Tanaats- I had not seen it before.

I also included a further refference from the cult abuse and policy research newsletter which clarified exactly what the judge didn't like about the puja. Sethie 18:05, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I have restored MOST of the well cited ideas that were removed.Sethie 06:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Psychological training

The sentence "However, no TM teacher has the qualifications to accurately screen for psychological problems" is not 100% accurate since some of the zillions of TM teachers who were trained might have been psychologists or psychiatrists. So I've changed it to "However, TM "teacher training" does not include training on how to accurately screen for psychological or psychiatric problems". Tanaats 21:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

You're a good editor. Earlier I noticed that maybe there should be a citation for this. I just added the tag. The first sentence should also have a source.TimidGuy 21:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Move of indepedndent cognitive section

The critic in question says the movement is a cult, not the TM technique, hence the rebutal doesn't fit. Also we have been seperating claim and rebutal into different sections- so unless a different modus operandi comes about.. Sethie 16:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. I don't understand the last part of what you're saying here. But I do think the rebuttal fits. Hassan says explicitly "They want you to dress and think and speak in a certain way." I rebutted that by presenting research done at Harvard showing that it fosters independent thinking. That study is unrelated to the point being made by Canter and Ernst. I don't think your move is a good one.

I do think I could have put in a better transition to make the connection between what the study is saying and what Hassan is saying.TimidGuy 16:26, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It is true you can dress it up.... and I am noitcing you did not answer my first objection

And I will explain the second objection.

Please notice that the article as it stands now, minus the German court study we do not have point-counter point right next to each other, they are divided into sections (for example the TM movement's claim about positive effects and critics. Now, would you be willing to answer my specific objections to the way the article was? Sethie 16:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it valid to cite allegations made in a suit that was dismissed?

At least twice this article quotes allegations made in a suit in 1986 alleging harmful effects of TM. A lower court ruled in favor of the plaintiff and made an award. The suit was appealed and the appellate court dismissed that particular suit. I wonder whether it's legitimate to quote these allegations when a court has ruled that they were unfounded.TimidGuy 16:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Did the court rule that the allegations were unfounded? Or were the allegations made, and the OVERALL case was dismissed? Sethie 17:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. There are a number of reasons for dismissing a suit other than "the allegations are unfounded". Tanaats 02:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I have been under the distinct impression that appellate courts do not rule on issues of "fact", but only on issues of "law". I could be wrong. Tanaats 02:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is very limited. But according to a friend who's an experienced trial lawyer, if there's a technical problem in the case then the decision of the lower court is reversed and the suit goes back to the lower court. He said that a dismissal is much more broad and that an appellate court can dismiss a suit for one of three reasons: 1) lack of evidence, 2) lack of credible evidence, and 3) lack of an adequate claim. I don't understand the third. He said that even if there's evidence and that evidence is found to be credible, a suit can still be dismissed for the third reason.

I'm going to wait on proposing anything related to the 1986 lawsuits until I have some of the court documents in hand. At this time, I only have a very limited understanding of the seven lawsuits filed in 1986. I only know that six of the seven were dismissed, including the ones alleging psychological injuries and emotional stress. The seventh, for fraud, was settled out of court.TimidGuy 16:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW, the fraud issue was concerning whether or not the plaintiff had been promised that he would learn to float within some definite period of time, rather than in principle since the TMO teaches that the Yogic Flying technique can lead to floating and has sometime in the past.Sparaig 23:59, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting -- it wasn't even specifically related to TM. I do plan to pursue the dispute procedures regarding this issue of citing dismissed lawsuits as evidence of adverse effects. Sparaig, you are a wealth of knowledge.TimidGuy 12:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The guideline on consensus

I think it would be good to review the guideline on consensus. I really think some changes are being made that don't best serve the interests of accuracy and logic and clarity. It would be good to discuss first rather than just plowing ahead.TimidGuy 16:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Your claim is too abstract for me. I am not willing to dialogue about something as vague as "I really think some changes are being made that don't best serve the interests of accuracy and logic and clarity." Pick a specific point and I will dialogue with you about it.

If you think it would be good to review the consensus guidelines, do it. If you think it would be good for ME to do so, please just come out and ask me to do it.Sethie 17:09, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if you wouldn't mind I think it would be a good idea to review the consensus guideline.

Thank you- I recviewed it, and will let it sit. Sethie 17:27, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Other issues

One example is moving the study by Alexander without first discussing. There's a guideline that I'm trying to find that deals specifically with article structure and whether criticisms should be integrated or in a separate section. Another example is the question regarding whether it's appropriate to cite allegations made in a suit that was found to be without merit and dismissed by an appellate court. Also, whether it's relevant to cite an award of a lower court if that decision was overturned by the appellate court.TimidGuy 17:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

After your quest, pick ONE thing and I will address it. Sethie 17:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The purpose of the Talk page

I would like to note, revelvant to an earlier discussion that touched on examining the reliability of sources on the Talk page, including discussing the accuracy of the content, that this is explicitly allowed in the guideline for Misplaced Pages Talk pages: "The talk page is the ideal place for all issues relating to verification. This includes asking for help to find sources, comparing contradictory facts from different sources, and examining the reliability of references."TimidGuy 17:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Please show me a place where I said it was not allowed.

Please show me ONCE where you "compared contradictory facts from different sources!"

TIMIDGUY, YOU ARE NOT A SOURCE. Time and time again I asked you to back up your claims with something other then your own thoughts or your offer to "make a phone call" and you would not/could not.

I didn't offer to make a phone call. I said that Carroll could easily have corrected his errors if he'd made a hone call. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TimidGuy (talk • contribs) 21:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Now you are once again misquoting wikipedia policy which asks you to do what I asked you to do!!!!!!!!!!!!! which is compare contradictory facts FROM A SOURCES other then your OWN THOUGHTS and your OWN RESEARCH. You made all these claims about the innacuracy of the Skeptics Dictionary and NOT ONCE did you produce a source!

I love it when you quote wiki policy, please keep it up. Sethie 17:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I was examining the reliability of references. I was, for example, comparing contradictory facts from Carroll and Randi. I was comparing the absence of any mention of a study by Rabinoff in scientific indexes to the fact that Carroll says such a study exists.

And here's one of the instances in which you were critical if my camparing contradictory facts from different sources: " If you believe that your own research about a source is relevant and worthwhile component to wikipedia, I have no wish to engage in dialogue with you around this topic."

I'm not trying to go after you. All I really want is to go back to the process that we had established earlier, of discussing things, achieving a consensus, and then making a better article. And if we can't agree, then I'd like to use the dispute procedures rather than plunging ahead and making changes that may or may not be improving the article.TimidGuy 17:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I stand corrected- in our dialogue, you did compare 2 facts, once. HOWEVER THAT IS NOT "examining the reliability of references!" As far as I am concerned, as soon as you step outside your thinking and provide a source, you are not engage in OR and I will disucss that with you.

I have made some swooping changes.... though not really- they are mostly old things that had been taken out. They're done. If you don't like them, pick one and let's start discussing them.Sethie 17:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And I would like to point out that if you certainly are not teaching by example. Without disucssing it first, you just removed some unique facts which were not covered in the repeat paragraph. Sethie 17:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

But you put it in without first discussing. And maybe some of those old things were taken out for a good reason. You have indeed made "swooping changes."TimidGuy 18:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It is true that I made the changes without first disucssing them. Why do you bring that up?

Maybe they were taken out for good reason. Maybe they were taken out by brainwashed Mantra Zealots! Maybe Elvis and aliens came and took them out. Who the hell knows? Instead of posting a "maybe" find out! Feel free to browse through the history and see if you can find a "good reason."Sethie 18:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

A friendly reminder to please try to keep this discussion civil, and to carefully read the contents of the "controversial tag" at the very top of this talk page. Thanks! Dreadlocke ☥ 23:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It is totally true that for me, "Brainwashed Mantra Zealots" was a way out of line thing to say.... I went for a personal attack to make my point, in in this case weakened what I was trying to say. Sethie 01:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Sethie. I just saw your most excellent apology to TimidGuy! Good work to both of you, and I hope you two can collaborate to make a great article on TM. Dreadlocke ☥ 01:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Sethie. And thanks Dreadlocke for posting the tag and for appearing here to help settle things down.TimidGuy 02:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see the repeat

Thank you for pointing out that the study was already there. Instead of deleting the new insertion of mine, which took out a quote and a nice summary, I have combined the two and moved it to the new section. Thank you- I had missed that. Sethie 17:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Rick Ross on Canter and Ernst

Hi, Sethie. Rick Ross seriously misrepresents the Canter and Ernst article. You shouldn't post what he says until we've had a chance to discuss. Thanks.TimidGuy 18:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it true that Rick Ross seriously misrepresents the Canter and Ernst article or did you do some serious misrepresenting?

Rick Ross hasn't made any comments on the study, hence it is actually you who are misrepresenting Rick Ross. You think he has something to say about the Canter and Ernst article. Interesting thought. No basis in reality- and REALLY interesting.

The only thing to disucss is: A) Is the source reputable? B) Did I accurately cite the source? C)Are their sources (which exclude Timidguy) which contradict what the source I drew form says?

The rest is your OR and belongs on a blog. Sethie 18:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I can present evidence that he's misrepresenting the study. But I don't see the point in doing so until we can agree on the purpose of the Talk page. Plus, I can't keep up with you here. I've got to turn my attention to other things that I've been neglecting. Will be back.TimidGuy 18:56, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

YOU CANNOT present evidence that he's misrepressenting the study, because Rick Ross has never made a comment on the study!

If you have sources, cite them and put them in the article!

The talk page is for talking. Sethie 19:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know where you got this quote because you don't provide a citation: "of 700 studies on TM spanning 40 years, only 10 were conducted in the clinical tradition of using strict control groups, randomization and placebos." It's not from the abstract available online, because that says something different. And it's not from the article, because I have that. I believe it's from Rick Ross because that's exactly how he inaccurately characterizes the study on his web site.

Thanks for telling the truth. I looked at the paragraph and it is a bit confusing- since two citations are used, so I added it in again.

It cannot be from Rick Ross, since he has never written an article on it.

He's repeated this verbatim a number of times. See, for example, this article. This is one of his favorite ways of dismissing the research. And it's not true.

I can demonstrate that this is an error by quoting from the abstract online. But I'm afraid that you'll again accuse me of doing Original Research. 1) Please tell me where this quote is from, and 2) and it would be great if you could tell my what you mean by Original Research not being allowed on the Talk page and cite a guideline for this. Thanks much. TimidGuy 12:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I am HIGHLY skeptical that you can demonstrate that it is an error. You can quote from a source though and let the readers decide.

Would the abstract of the study be an acceptable source?

Ahhh- thank you for actually asking! It is from The Journal News/May 18, 2004 By Joy Victory. Time and time and time and time again, and again, right now, I have said that if you quote sources that IS NOT or.

For the 2nd time (you were unwilling or unable to answer it the first time, maybe this will be different) Please show me where I said OR is not allowed on the talk page?Sethie 15:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Quoting from Sethie in an earlier thread: "My challenge to you is to respond to the above paragraph without going into OR". (But if you agree that presenting the absract is acceptable to the process on the Talk page, then we can drop this point.)TimidGuy 18:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I just reread what you said. I think I'm beginning to understand your point (though I'm not sure I agree). But for now, I think we can drop it if you agree that the abstract is acceptable evidence.TimidGuy 18:44, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

You said "it would be great if you could tell my what you mean by Original Research not being allowed on the Talk page and cite a guideline for this." I asked you to show me where I said it was not allowed. You replied by quoting me: "My challenge to you is to respond to the above paragraph without going into OR."

When I read those words, I don't see me saying OR isn't allowed.

So for the third time, please show me where I said OR isn't allowed on the talk page. If you cannot find me saying that, would you be willing to clearly indicate this?

I said RR had not commented on the study. I was in error, you provided me a source showing me a source in which he does.

The source I quoted however does not say they got that information from Rick Ross, hence, the source for the quote I used was Joy Victory, a reporter for the Journal News.

Every step of this dialogue I have encouraged you to cite soureces. And now you want to know if it is okay with me if you cite sources?

Would you be willing to re-read everything I have posted in the last week and count how many times I have asked you to cite sources? Sethie 18:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Please, please, please, present the abstracts! Sethie 18:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

"It is claimed that regular practice of Transcendental Meditation (TM) improves cognitive function and increases intelligence. This systematic review assesses the evidence from randomised controlled trials for cumulative effects of TM on cognitive function. Searches were made of electronic databases and the collected papers and official websites of the TM organisation. Only randomised controlled trials with objective outcome measures of the cumulative effects of TM on cognitive function were included. Trials that measured only acute effects of TM, or used only neurophysiological outcome measures were excluded. 107 articles reporting the effects of TM on cognitive function were identified and 10 met the inclusion criteria." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TimidGuy (talk • contribs) 21:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

I really want to thank you for posting the contents of the citation here. Would you please post the actual citation, so I can review it? Sethie 16:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

It can be found here.

I guess I'll go ahead and delete the following information taken from Rick Ross's web site: "of 700 studies on TM spanning 40 years, only 10 were conducted in the clinical tradition of using strict control groups, randomization and placebos." As can be seen from the abstract, Canter and Ernst only looked at a subset of TM research (107 studies related to cognitive function) to find their 10 randomized controlled trials. In fact, when taking into account the other 600 studies, there are many many more randomized controlled trials, including about a dozen studies funded by the NIH and published in top medical journals in the past 10 years.

In addition, I would note that there are valid research designs that show causality in addition to randomized controlled trials. I would also add that Canter and Ernst didn't include some studies that might have been included. For example, there were two that they thought might have been randomized controlled trials but it wasn't clear from the abstract. Also, they left out a randomized controlled study by So Kam Tim that used students as subjects. In this case, rather than randomizing according to individuals, the study was randomized according to class. That is, one class did TM and another class was the control. This is common in education settings, because it's difficult to have students within a class doing different things.

Finally, as an aside, I discovered a major flaw in the study by Canter and Ernst. They counted one study twice. It was a very careless error. In fact, there were only nine different studies that they looked at, not 10. I won't bore you with the details, and it's irrelvant to Wkipedia, since OR isn't allowed.TimidGuy 16:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for leaving your OR at the door! If you find a reputable source that says what you think, by all means, include them.

How are you able to read the whole abstract- the link you give me only points to a summary?

That's the whole abstract.

So- what department are you a proffesor it? Sethie 16:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. But I prefer to maintain my anonymity. I will tell you, though, that I'm not anyone important at the university.TimidGuy 16:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. And I have no desire to break your anonymity either. So would you be willing to disclose what your relationship is with the TM organization without being overly specific (i.e. if you are a proffesor don't say what department, etc.?)Sethie 16:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

My recent reverts

I reverted the last 2 edits by Timidguy because: a)he still not clear who the source of the article is, hence I do not belive he is in a position to evaluate it; b)it is a near direct quote from a source; c)I posted why I restructured something, and he did not respond to it. Instead he went ahead and has reverted it twice now (as have I). d) He has not followed the guidelines posted on this talk page, to disucss changes after they are made them for either of those reverts. Sethie 21:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I explain my edits above.TimidGuy 13:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

When I look above I do see you saying why you don't like the cog section where it is- so I stand corrected, you commented on one of your 2 reverts. Sethie 15:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Added citations for the Pagels quotes

The citations for the Pagels quotes were text (like "") rather than links. So I added live links as citations. Sorry, I forgot to log in before making the edits. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanaats (talk • contribs) 18:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Thanks, Tanaats. I'd noticed that too and had it on my list of things to do.TimidGuy 18:45, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Offer their own techniques?

In the "Some TM teachers breaking away" section it says "Some of these teachers have broken with Maharishi to offer their own techniques at much lower prices." I'm feeling a bit leary of the "offer their own techniques" part. I propose "Some of these teachers have broken with Maharishi to offer instruction in TM, or instruction in their own techniques that are offshoots of TM, at much lower prices." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanaats (talk • contribs) 20:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Because "Transcendental Meditation" is trademarked, it's illegal for them to call it TM. And legally we shouldn't refer to it as TM here.TimidGuy 20:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. How about "Some of these teachers have broken with Maharishi to offer instruction on their own". Saying their "own techniques" falsely gives the impression that none of them are offering instruction that is faithful to their TM teacher training. Tanaats 21:01, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a creative workaround. But legally, we shouldn't even imply that it's TM.TimidGuy 21:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The statement as proposed does not violate the "TM" trademark, and there is therefore no legal problem with it. Tanaats 21:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I can check legal counsel.TimidGuy 21:41, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

TMO legal counsel? Tanaats 22:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I'd check with the General Counsel for Maharishi University of Management, licensee of the mark Transcendental Meditation. He also is an attorney for Maharishi Foundation, LTD, the U.K. charity which owns the mark.TimidGuy 22:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Cool. But if you get a response that agrees with your assessment, I'll want to start the WP dispute resolution process.

And FWIW, here's a quote from MMY that seems to relate to this topic...

"30 or 40 thousand teachers of TM I have trained, many of them have gone on their own, and they may not call it Maharishi's TM, but they are teaching it in some different name here and there... doesn't matter, as long as the man is getting something useful to make his life better, we are satisfied". (Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Press Conference, May 14, 2003)."

There's an MP3 on Fairfield Life where MMY makes this statement. I'd want to include this statement if the TMO objects to my proposed rewrite. Tanaats 22:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarification: I wouldn't of course cite an MP3 on FFL as a source. I just mentioned it as evidence to you that the quote is legit. Tanaats 22:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Timidguy you never cease to amaze me! Who cares if it is illegal for them to call the technique TM or not? What POSSIBLE bearing could that have here? In NO way, shape or form is that our issue. That is an issue for the General Counsel.

Our issue is WHAT DO THEY CALL THEMSELVES? How do THEY speak of what they teach.

"And legally we shouldn't refer to it as TM here." Knock it off! We are an encyclopedia. If they call themselves TM, we REPORT, hey, they call themlselves TM. If they don't we don't. If they kinda do, we report, hey they kind of do. It is really, really simple.

Instead of wipping out your Legal-talk-talk, and running to the phone, why not focus on wikipedia-speak? We can't "refer to it as TM here." because that would violate NPOV. WE cannot pass judgement on whether it is or is not TM, we just report what sources say.

So call GCfMUoM, Make phone calls, write letter, yada yada. This encyclolpedia however is SOOOOOO much simpler then that! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sethie (talk • contribs) 23:14, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Those who have said they're offering TM have been sued, and have received a cease and desist order. They no longer call it TM. And I believe that Misplaced Pages shouldn't call it TM or imply that it's TM.TimidGuy 01:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages currently does not call it TM! Misplaced Pages does not imply it is TM. Misplaced Pages currently reports the following facts: former TM teachers, disgruntled, teaching their own technique.

If the people teaching say, hey this is TM, then Misplaced Pages MUST say, "These people say this is TM." If there is documentation or offical statements by the TM organization saying no it isn't, then Misplaced Pages MUST say, "And these people say it isn't." Never, never, never, must we, however pass judgment, or try to convey through the article, this is/this isn't genuine TM. On that issue, we must remain neutral, or we stray into the land of OR, do you see? It is up to us to report facts from cited sources. Let us see how they call themselves. Sethie 02:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, go ahead and get the opinion of TMO counsel. Then, if they agree with you, we can go into dispute resolution. No problemo.

As a side note, these guys have indeed been threatened with lawsuit and have put up a buncha' disclaimers. But these guys seem to be getting away with it. Maybe British law and Italian law are different. Tanaats 02:10, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it would be appropriate to take this through the dispute process, since it's a legal matter. It would be better if you do whatever you want. Then I'll send that to our legal counsel, and if he feels it violates the trademark, he'll then send a letter to Misplaced Pages, as he's done before. It's a matter for the U.S. legal system, not Misplaced Pages's dispute system.TimidGuy 02:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll probably try it anyway. :) It can't hurt anything. and the sentence as it stands is misleading. Tanaats 17:37, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I made the change. Let's hear what the TMO lawyer says about it! Tanaats 17:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Would you be willing to let us know who you are or what your official relationship is with the TM movement. "Our legal consuel," and you seem to know the exact person and his duties rather well.Sethie 03:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I am a Timid Guy. I'd make a terrible lawyer.TimidGuy 15:59, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for answering the question: Am I a lawyer? and thank you for asking the question, since I didn't!

I asked what is your relationship with the TM organization. Are you willing to answer that question open and honestly? Sethie 16:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I propose adding the MMY quote (see above) about rogue teachers to the section. It certainly can't hurt anything to quote him. Tanaats 17:47, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the guidelines disallow discussion groups as sources.TimidGuy 17:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Please let me know how a "MP3" located on "Fairfield Life" is a discussion group? Please let me know how a recording of the founder of the movement is a discussion group? Sethie 17:57, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

BTW Tanaats so glad you pushed for the wording on this section- I just looked at the TM Independent site and they DO very clearly say, THIS IS TM. Good work.Sethie 17:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I don't need to cite the discussion group if that turns out to not be allowed. AFAIK I can cite "Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Press Conference, May 14, 2003)". Actually, I'll want to do that regardless. Tanaats 18:05, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah discussion groups aren't allowed... and I don't see it as an issue, with the other strong source.Sethie 18:11, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, the discussion stopped (although maybe I didn't give TimidGuy enough time, sorry if so) so I went ahead and did it. We can still discuss it if I jumped too soon, but actually, I think that the impression the quote gives weighs rather positively on the pro-TM side. Tanaats 02:32, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Clearly there are legal issues involved. I've sent this section to MUM's legal counsel (who is inconveniently out of the country at the moment). If he feels that this is problematic -- for example, if it's promoting trademark infringement, then the next step will be to determine at what point Misplaced Pages becomes liable. At first I thought that if it simply appeared in Wikiepedia and has legal issues, then the next step was simply for legal counsel to contact Misplaced Pages. But maybe I first need to make more of an effort to disallow this (including dispute procedures) before the lawyer guys step in. In any case, we'll wait until we hear back from him.TimidGuy 16:35, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

If the TM organization gets on our case for reporting facts... well, by your fruits shall you know them.Sethie 16:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. I don't think editors have any liability. It's a Misplaced Pages issue. And maybe I'm off base on all of this anyway. But legally, what they're offering isn't TM. We need to think how to deal with that. And I do need to check with legal counsel —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TimidGuy (talk • contribs) 17:48, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

I have now problem with the concept that they're violating the tradmark if they call their offering "TM". I just don't think that my revision violates the trademark. It doesn't say "what" they are teaching at all, and I (who has a whole year of college "business law" :) ) don't think that an "implication" is actionable. And I have a definite problem with the statement as it was, since it gives they impression ("implies" if you will :) ) that the rogue teachers go out and make up something out of their heads, which is a distortion of the truth. Having said that, I'm willing to go whatever way you want with this in terms of resolving the disputee. Tanaats 17:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

You may be right. I may be off base on this. But I do want to check with our legal counsel, since as with any organization, it's very important to protect one's trademark.TimidGuy 18:00, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm cool with that. No problemo here. Tanaats 18:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Show me where I say that "legally what they're offering is TM."

The FACT of the matter is, the UK place says, THIS IS TM. That is the fact of it, that is what is happening, X is saying Y.

Is it TM? I don't know, and I don't care. That is not a wikipedia issue. Let's stick to facts, ok?

"We need to deal with that." No, no, no, no, no, No, nO. You, as a private citizen, NOT a wiki editor feel the need to to deal with that, and it sounds like you are. And I request you do it somewhere else.

I believe this is at least the 2nd time I have said this, and thus far you have not responded. Would you be williing to let me know if you understand the difference between wikipedia reporting on facts and wikipedia taking a stance on issues? I am sure if you read the Hitler section, it presents what Hitler says. Does that mean wikipedia is siding with Hitler? Sethie 18:07, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's a fact that they call it TM. And it's also a fact that they're violating the trademark. And a fact that people have been sued for their violation and are now more careful in how they present their technique.TimidGuy 18:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Here on wikipedia, IT IS NOT AN ESTABLISHED FACT THAT THEY ARE VIOLATING TRADE MARK. It is your opinion, and has no bearing here. Cite a source, or go write about it on a blog.

It has no bearing on this article right now. Would you please stop disuccsing things that don't pertain to the article here?

This is the third time I have asked you to stop discussing this thing which has nothing to do with the article here. Would you be willing to let me know why you wish to choose a wikipedia talk page as a place to disucss something that has no bearing on the article? It sounds like you really want to talk about this, present your side and be heard.... maybe we can together find another venue for you to do that? Sethie 19:58, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

All most certainly true. But none of this makes my edit, exactly as written, a trademark violation. And MMY himself has come out publically and verified that there are some rogue teachers that are teaching as they were instructed in TTC: "...they may not call it Maharishi's TM, but they are teaching it in some different name here and there...". Substituting "Maharishi's TM" for "it" we get "...they are teaching Maharishi's TM in some different name here and there...". If MMY says this in one of his public news conferences, then I honestly don't see the point of objecting to my much more harmless sentence. But do what you gotta' do, or course.  :) Tanaats 19:51, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the ad populum, opinionated statements at the beginning of this section need a citation and need some rewriting. (Note that this section was originally added by a representative of Natural Stress Relief.)TimidGuy 12:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I added a quote from the Natural Stress Relief web site which explicitly states it's not Transcendental Meditation.TimidGuy 12:52, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Well Timidguy, just as you cover my half-truths, looks like I am covering yours! I added a quote from the the TM independent web site which explicitly states it is Transcendental Meditation.Sethie 17:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Well done. Thanks.TimidGuy 20:40, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Or I should say- they say they are teaching TM! :) Sethie 20:43, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I wonder if it would be OK if I deleted "on the other hand." The guideline on Words to avoid suggests not using conjunctions like "however," because it prejudices the latter alternative over the former. This instance may be similar. Or it may not. But my preference would be to omit.TimidGuy 22:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I felt a little uneasy about it myself.. I'll take it out.

And btw, just wanted to be clear- since typed words don't convey tone- my tone above was loving-teasing- 5 year old chant tone. :) Sethie 22:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Sethie. : )

Tanaats, regarding the Maharishi quote. Does it meet the guideline of verifiability? Which stipulates that a person should be able to verify the information by going to the original source? Is a recording of this particular press conference online? Or a transcript?

Also, regarding the new web site that was added. It says nothing about this person being a former teacher of TM. Can anyone come here and post an ad for his or her brand of meditation?TimidGuy 12:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why a recording wouldn't meet it, unless the source is bad, I would like to see the link to the MP3 personally.

Good catch, the website hints but doesn't say the person was a former TM teacher, I'll take it out. Sethie 13:22, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Sethie, for removing that. I agree -- if the recording is available online, then it's verifiable. Right now the only citation is the date of the press conference.TimidGuy 18:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm a little unclear as to who can be added to this list of teachers? Apologies for editing without reading this discussion first... I'd like to add three teachers - Lavender Meditation in the UK, Intro To Meditation in the US and Tim Brown Meditation in Australia. I know these people - all are teaching in the tradition of Maharishi but are independent teachers and do not use the terms Transcendental Meditation or TM to promote themselves. Is there a way to add them to this list of 'official' unofficial teachers? It seems like there is value in offering alternatives to readers who are interested in the technique, but not interested in the TM organization. Thanks in advance. Mmiller500 11:43, 13 December 2006 (UTC)Michael

It doesn't seem like Misplaced Pages should become an advertising vehicle for everyone teaching meditation, especially since there's no way to know what each person is teaching. I'd say that it's sufficient to make the general point and then give two examples.TimidGuy 12:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

If their website makes it clear that they are former TM teachers, or are somehow related to TM, yet not doing TM, or offering TM cheaply, etc., I would like to see them included, and none of the ones you have presented above appear to meet that criteria. Sethie 16:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

No one has responded to my pointing out that the initial sentences contain unsupported opinionated statements. Also I had pointed out that the Maharishi quote doesn't seem to meet the guideline of verifiability. If it's OK, I'll go ahead and do a rewrite of the initial sentences so that they reflect what the UK web site says in regard to why teachers are breaking away. And I'll delete the Maharishi quote.TimidGuy 16:12, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

It's ok with me. I'm not attached to the MMY quote. I just stuck it in to validate that some teachers were offering instruction based on their TTC training. I dunno' if it should be considered "verifiable" or not (I'd have to consult a WP lawyer) but I personally I don't mind if you delete it. (Dang, this whole section is huge!) Tanaats 20:09, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Take out the first sentence, we can re-write it.

Before you take at the MMY quote, how do you think it does not meet WP:V? Sethie 21:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I would just like to point out, however, that there is a ton of stuff in the article that is completely unsourced. My little MMY quote is actually quite well sourced in comparison. Tanaats 23:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but as it stands now, we have the date that he said these words, and an actual recording of him? So I am rather curious how this doesn't meet WP:V.Sethie 23:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

He said those words. However, he said them in response to a question about whether the questioner should learn TM or stick with his own group, whose teachers apparently teach something very similar to what MMY teaches, according to the questioner. MMY ASSUMED that it was TM taught by "renegade TM teachers" that the questiner was asking about. OTOH, there is a group in the UK that claims to teach MMY's original technique using a single mantra. Since MMY makes a big deal about using different mantras selected for different individuals, it hardly seems likely that this group was the one that MMY had in mind, and yet, I believe it is one of the ones that is/was mentioned om the Misplaced Pages article on TM as a "spin-off" TM group. They also sponsor the archive of the anti-TM TM-ex website, so its hard to believe that they are otherwise agendless in how they teach meditation so again, I doubt if this group was the one that MMY had in mind in his response. IOW, MMY may turn a blind eye to renegade TM teachers, but not all people (even those who contribute to Misplaced Pages posing as former TM teachers) may actually be former TM teachersSparaig 23:49, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Excuuuuuuse me, but did I hear that right? "Posing?" I assume you mean me, but you say it as if it were a known fact. Was that your intention? If so, how exactly did you catch on to my little game, psychic ability? Private investigators?  ;) I certainly hope you didn't actually mean that since you seemed like a dispassionate and reasonable person who wouldn't be making personal attacks.

As for MMY's statement, it seems pretty darn hard to misinterpret to me. I don't see a reason to not take it at face value, even if MMY made some assumption. But, in the absence of psychic ability that can reach back in time, I don't see how we know whether MMY assumed anything or not! He's pretty damned intelligent, an absolute genius in my opinion. And he's very sophisticated. I think he says exactly what he wants to say. So I think that taking his statements at face value is a very reasonable policy.

Yes, MMY has for some time made a big deal about different mantras (although actually there are only a few even in recent times) selected according to age (and in the past according to sex) for different in individuals. But we cannot assume from this that he has always used a lot of mantras. So I can't accept that "it hardly seems likely" since I find it "quite possible".

As for NSR, I can't find in the TM article where it says that NSR is a "'spin-off' TM group". Again, it might be old age, so again please quote the quote. The article says "Some of these teachers have broken with Maharishi to offer instruction on their own" which is actually literally true for NSR (unless David Spector is another poseur of course ;) ).

As for "They also sponsor the archive of the anti-TM TM-ex website, so its hard to believe that they are otherwise agendless in how they teach meditation so again, I doubt if this group was the one that MMY had in mind in his response"...AFAIK TM-Ex never took a position against the TM technique (at least I never read that in their materials and I read quite a few of them). They did take a position that the TM Org was a destructive cult. There is no logical conflict if NSR thinks the technique is "good", but the TMO is "bad". As for "agendaless", do you not have "agenda" yourself? And if you do have one does that make you somehow inherently untrustworthy?

Ignoring your apparent psychic ability to somehow know (unless I completely misunderstand you which I do hope I do) that I am "posing", I agree that not everyone who claims to be a former TM teacher is ipso facto actually a former TM teacher. But that is rather obvious so I don't what point you are trying to make by pointing it out. Tanaats 02:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

And why all the upset about that little bitsy quote? I actually think it comes across quite positively and makes MMY look rather magnanimous. I should be the one fighting to take it out.  :) Tanaats 02:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

"Posing" as former TM teachers, thanks for the laugh Sparaig. Please keep such comments to yourself or disucss them on the conspiracy theory talk page.

Trying to read MMY's mind or intentions is OR to the extreme. Trying to guess the agenda of spin-off groups is OR. Just stick with the fact, and if you are going to make accusations, just make them, don't half make them, ok? Sethie 15:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I didn't think of it as a fight. I just wanted to listen to it and verify that it was correct and try to understand the context to see if something else should be included. So I went to the citation thinking that I was going to be able to listen to it, but only the date was given. As I understand it, the guideline WP:verifiability requires that people be able to examine the source. If the recording is available online, then the quote meets the guideline. And if it is available online, please put that in the citation. I'd like to listen to it.TimidGuy 12:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Sparaig's comment about people posing "here" as former TM teachers referred to the "Breaking Away" section of article rather than the Talk page. And I believe we've already seen an instance of it. In the link that Sethie rightly removed the woman claimed to have spent 14 months in northern Arizona learning to teach meditation. But I don't think that there was ever a TM teacher training course in northern Arizona, and I don't think a teacher training course has ever been taught for a duration of 14 months.

I appreciate your attempt to make peace, but read again: "even those who contribute to Misplaced Pages posing as former TM teachers". "Contribue to Misplaced Pages", mind you. If Sparaig is referring to someone other than me, it is certainly not very obvious. And he certainly could spoken for himself by now and offered a clarification; that he has not done so by now is significant I think. Absent such a clarification I think it is extremely reasonable to consider it a personal attack. You certainly have your convictions, and I'm certain you must have been frustated as hell with me and Sethie many times, but you've alway been courteous. I think that Sparaig owes me either an apology or a clarification. We'll just see what happens. Tanaats 18:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In any case, at this point we seem agreed that we need to be cautious about letting people put in ads for their meditation technique in this section of the article. And we seem to be in agreement that the unsupported opinionated statements at the beginning need work. And we seem to be in agreement that if the recording of the press conference in question isn't available, this source may not meet the guideline of WP:Verifiability.TimidGuy 16:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm willing to continue to explore this with you, but it reminds me that we should also explore verifiability of passages such as "including celebrities such as the Beatles, actor Stephen Collins, radio personality Howard Stern, film director David Lynch, Scottish musician Donovan, and actresses Mia Farrow and Heather Graham. For nearly eight years, Deepak Chopra was one of Maharishi's most prominent spokespersons and promoters of Maharishi Ayurveda or alternative medicine." In fact, there is a ton of stuff in the article that is unsourced, most of it explaining TM teachings. Tanaats 18:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Currently the teachers listed are former members of the TM organization that have broken away. Is that the only definition of a TM teacher that is acceptable? There are people being trained to teach TM now, other than by the organization. Why should they be automatically excluded? If anything, they would have less of an agenda than former teachers with a grudge. It seems as the article stands that two specific groups are being endorsed as "official" TM alternatives just because they have come to a legal agreement with the TM org about using the trademarked term on their sites. Thanks for your thoughts on this. Mmiller500 06:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the title of the section is "Some TM teachers breaking away". I think the implicit intention is to discuss people who were trained as teachers by the TMO, but who then started teacher outside the auspices of the TMO.

Actually I don't think anyone got agreement from the TMO that they could use the trademarked term on their site. NSR was threatened with lawsuit and responded by putting up disclaimers all over their site that they were not teaching "TM". I don't know how the "TM Independent" folks are getting away with it without being sued but I strongly doubt that they've come to any arrangement with the TMO. Tanaats 06:45, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The Canteer edit

The deletion of "In a large-scale literature review published by the Middle European Journal of Medicine in 2003 reported that "of 700 studies on TM spanning 40 years, only 10 were conducted in the clinical tradition of using strict control groups, randomization and placebos." Peter Canteer, a researcher from Peninsula Medical School concluded in TM research, "there is a strong placebo effect going on which probably works through the expectations being set up." " deletes a lot that isn't replicated by "Peter Canteer, a researcher from Peninsula Medical School concluded in TM research, "there is a strong placebo effect going on which probably works through the expectations being set up." isn't represented fully by the Canteer quote that remians.

I propose replacing the Canteer quote that remains with the entire deleted section. Tanaats 20:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Not a "sworn" affadavit?

In "Alleged Harmful Effects of Trancendental Meditation", why was "a sworn affadavit" changed to "an affadavit"? Tanaats 21:15, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there another kind of affidavit other than one that's "sworn"? Seemed like it was redundant.TimidGuy 21:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Dunno'. And neither will a lot of other people. A little redundancy won't hurt if it informs people who aren't familiar with the nature of affadavits. Tanaats 22:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

When I hear affidavit- I think- something legal. When I hear sworn affidavit- I think- legal statement- that someone actually testified or swore is true. That's how my mind reacts to the two. Sethie 23:29, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't matter to me. I just thought it made Misplaced Pages sound naive.TimidGuy 01:54, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I've put "sworn" back in. Tanaats 02:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Review of research on cognitive function

(1) Wasn't there a "counter-point" citation here previously? If so, wha'happened to it? If not chalk it off to me having a "senior moment".

That was the study by Canter and Ernst, which Sethie moved when he created a new section about the validity of the research.

(2) The statement "Research on Transcendental Meditation suggests that it fosters independent thinking." is too general. It is supported by only a single cited study. I propose changing it to "A research study on Transcendental Meditation suggests that it fosters independent thinking." Tanaats 23:24, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

There are other studies on field independence. But that sentence was originally meant to be a transition from the previous paragraph. But Sethie moved this study from where I had originally put this. As it stands, I feel like its pointless having it there and that it could be deleted.

I wish Sethied hadn't moved it. I had put this into the article as a rebuttal in the cult section to the quote from Hassan: "They want you to dress and think and speak in a certain way and not to ask questions. They go into hypnotic trances and shut off who they are as a person." This research and other TM studies on field independence suggest that TM fosters independent thinking. Psychologists have a range of standardized measures that they use, such as the embedded-figures text, to come up with a measure of field indepence.

The guideline on NPOV says that both points of view should be represented. The cult section now represents only one point of view. I made that point in another thread, to no avail. And readers are leflt with POV.TimidGuy 02:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

No need to rebute! Let the facts speak for themselves! Readers are not left with a POV, they are left with facts! Cite people who directly say it isn't a cult, and then readers will have those facts too, not ONE study about ONE component of the alledged cult.

I posted two reasons above why I moved it, and why I don't believe moving it back is not a good idea.

As of now, you have responded to neither. Would you be willing to answer the objections I posted above before introducing new factors into the disucssion?Sethie 02:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Hassan has made a general statement -- TM is a cult -- and has suppoorted it with a specific reason -- that the organization controls thinking. It's a very common form of argumentative discourse to rebut the general statement by rebutting the specific reason.

And I think the location of a reference to a scientific study that rebuts his point about controlling thinking is properly after he makes the point, not in the research section. Otherwise readers won't see the connection.TimidGuy 18:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Move "Sthapatya Veda" to its own article?

Since the TM article is so long, and because "Sthapatya Veda" is essentially being given "special treatment" by appearing on the TM page rather than being a link under "Other programs offered by Maharishi", I propose that "Sthapatya Veda" be moved to its own article. The new article can be titled with whatever the TMO's official designation for that offering is, and can be linked to under the "Other offerings..." section on the TM page. Tanaats 00:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I support that Sethie 01:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good. Thanks for suggesting it. The article title would be Maharishi Sthapatya Veda.TimidGuy 02:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Move some stuff to other TM-related pages?

Ok...the TM article is too long, and there is a lot of stuff on there about things that are "not TM". So how about moving the following sections to other appropriate articles?...

(1) Move "Marketing of herbal products" to Maharishi Vedic Medicine.

(2) Move "TM-Sidhi Program and the Maharishi Effect" to TM-Sidhi program.

(3) Move "Political activities of the TM organization" to Natural Law Party.

(4) Move "Maharishi University of Management" to Maharishi University of Management.

(5) Keep "Tax-exempt status" where it is..

(6) Keep "Some TM teachers breaking away" where it is. Tanaats 01:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I like this. I believe #2 and #3 are pretty much repeated verbatim in their respective articles. These sections were left as placeholders.TimidGuy 02:23, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I like this too, the article is too long and it's readability is somewhat hampered by it's length. Here's some information I hope you find helpful on spinning off new articles from this one:

• Summary style
• Breaking out a controversial section
• If a section is a summary of another article

Dreadlocke ☥ 05:18, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Dreadlocke. Wow, that's just a bit complex. After I take a hack at the "Maharishi Sthapatya Veda" subarticle, would you mind checking me out? Tanaats 18:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been swamped the past few days, but I'd be very happy to check it out as soon as I get a chance. I'm sure it looks great! Dreadlocke ☥ 23:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I made a start anyway. The Sthapatya Veda section has been moved to Maharishi Sthapatya Veda. There's still more to do according to the references provided by Dreadlocke, such as creating navigational templates. Tanaats 19:09, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I really think these are good changes. Thanks so much. I didn't know about these other tnings that need to be done when I created the articles on the TM-Sidhii program and Global Country of World Peace by splitting them off from this article. I guess we should tend to those as well.TimidGuy 20:21, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I just added a navigational template above "Footnotes" Tanaats 20:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

An easy start would be to add a "main" template, such as I put at the top of Maharishi Sthapatya Veda, to the other subsidiary pages. And we could put navigational templates on those as well. Tanaats

I went ahead and did that. But I have to go back and revisit because I didn't know about the "Maharishi Vedic Science" article. Are there any more that I've missed? Tanaats 01:54, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks so much, Tanaats, for doing this to all these pages. Really appreciate your efforts to improve Misplaced Pages.TimidGuy 16:21, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Your're welcome! My own web site is completely biased to my POV, but so are the official TMO websites. But here I think the concept of NPOV is a good one, and I'm happy to do whatever I can to clearly present all POVs. (Wow, I sound so pious! :) ) Tanaats 18:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

So do I need to ask permission on those other pages before moving stuff? Tanaats 01:20, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you can just go ahead. It's great that you're cleaning up the TM article in this fashion.TimidGuy 12:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I've done the moves. Check it out please. Tanaats 18:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Only had time at the moment to glance at the TM article. Really looks good to have it streamlined like this. Wow, great work.

By the way, we should move the NRC subsection that's in the Research section to the new section on validity that Sethie created.TimidGuy 19:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good, did that. Tanaats 20:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Totally disputed?

At the top of the article there's this line: "1. REDIRECT Template:Totally-disputed". Whazzat? Tanaats 02:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The tag is correct. May be a temporary Misplaced Pages glitch. I think for now we can leave it and see if Misplaced Pages gets the template corrected.TimidGuy 02:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The template was changed for consistency with other templates, but apparently there was a problem with the redirect to the new one. I established a link directly to the new one, so we're good. I hope.  :) Dreadlocke ☥ 05:04, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that, Dreadlocke, and for keeping an eye on things here. Your assistance is helpful.TimidGuy 16:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Re-write

Given the data the Timidguy has presented, I re-wrote the paragraph on the canter and ernst study, using their exact words in refference to the outcomes.Sethie 16:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I was afraid you'd do that. I had rewritten it earlier so that it wouldn't be misleading. Most readers will think that "negative effect" means "adverse effect." As I explained in an earlier posting on the Talk page, "negative effect" has a technical scientific meaning. To best represent the study and not mislead readers, we should go back to my earlier rewrite.TimidGuy 16:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Partial summary of errors, falsehoods, and half-truths corrected this past week

I thought it would be useful to post a summary of some of the errors, falsehoods, and half-truths that were added to the article this past week, along with the corrections made. The purpose certainly isn't to criticize anyone -- after all, this is all part of the Misplaced Pages process. But I thought that by highlighting them it might be instructive. Maybe we can learn something about our sources and processes that will help make this article even better in the future.

• 1980 German federal study shows adverse effects (Skeptic's Dictionary) -- 1985 German government retracts study because it was unscientific and biased

I don't think that the skepdic quote is a falsehood or error; it is true as stated. And if it is a "half-truth", then whole thing makes a "full truth" with the addition of the statement that based on a judge's ruling. I see no problem with fully documenting both facts. I happen to believe that a judge's personal opinion (which is what it objectively amounts to) automatically makes it "true" that the original study was unscientific and biased. (For example, the NJ decision doesn't automatically make it objectively "true" that TM is a religion, it just reflects the opinions of a panel of judges.) So let's just present both facts in an NPOV way and let the readers digest the controversy and come to their own conclusions. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this was meant as an example of a half truth. I'm fine with putting in both parts.

• affidavit in 1986 suit alleging adverse effects (Skeptic's Dictionary) -- suit was dismissed by appellate court

Readers deserve to hear both sides since (1) AFAIK we don't know that the appellate court somehow psychically determined (and that's what would be required) that DeNaro was lying and then made that the basis of their decision and (2) see above, same argument applies IMO. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

• study shows only 10 of 700 studies were randomized, controlled trials (rickross.com) -- study selected 10 RCTs from a subset of 107; there are many more than 10 RCTs

Dunno'. It does say "Trials that measured only acute effects of TM, or used only neurophysiological outcome measures were excluded", which could have excluded most of the research on TM (though I don't know what they mean by "acute effects", though hopefully the learned readers of the journal would know :) ). So AFAIK the quote might be true as stated. Dunno'. I do think that the preceeding section on positive TM research is pretty impressive, so I think the total effect is an NPOV.

The study clearly says the 10 RCTs are a subset of the subset of 107. It's a falsehood to say that the study says there are only 10 RCTs in 700.TimidGuy 20:45, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

"Falsehood" is an emotionally loaded word, with a lot of negative connotations including an element of intentional misrepresentation. Can we use "innacurate" instead? And are we talking about this?: http://www.rickross.com/reference/tm/tm93.html? If so the fault is with Joy Victory of The Journal News. You'll be lucky for a reporter to get everything right in an article. If we're talking about something else on the RR site, do you have a link so I can catch up with the conversation? Thanks. Tanaats 21:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point about "falsehood." Yes, Sethie had quoted Joy Victory's article. I noted in the discussion of Canter and Ernst that Rick Ross had said verbatim the same thing in a number of instances and gave a link to one such instance. It's oft-repeated. And I guess that's why I used "falsehood." It is, after all, a major criticism. And the abstract is readily available. I could see if maybe one reporter got it wrong. But to have it repeatedly used suggests that something else is at work. But you're right. It's not really fair to use "falsehood" until I point it out to Rick Ross that he has it wrong. I should do so.

By the way, I wonder if it was clear what I meant by "half truth." For example, I was suggesting that mentioning the German TM study was a half truth in the sense that it was true that such a study existed. I called it "half" because the other half was that the study was retracted. My "correction" was simply to add the other half, feeling that having both points was the best representation of the matter.TimidGuy 12:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, I understand now. Yes, it was good to add that other half. Tanaats 16:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Just thinking out loud... I think that the studies support the Maharishi Effect are absolute bunk. I'd like to add my counter-point that just because a study appears in a peer-reviewed journal it doesn't make the conclusions "true", e.g. Bible Code. Dunno'. Maybe you don't feel that is an argument that responds to your position, just thinking out load as I said. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

• 1986 suit awarded Kropinske $138,000 -- suit was dismissed by appellate court

See above. I think we have NPOV here. The appelate court can't be psychically certain that the allegations in the Kropinksy suite were "certainly" false. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

• Malnak case: appellate court judge Meanor says puja an issue (Hassan's freedomofmind.com) -- Meanor was lower court judge

See above. Just pointing that out in the article gives NPOV I think. It's certainly a matter of opinion whether the puja should be an issue or not. The NJ judges thought that it was an issue, AFAIK, in which case you have judges disagreeing with each other. I've never felt that a legal decision absolutely determines "truth", whether I agree with the decision (as in the NJ case) or not. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The point here was that the article implied that Meanor was an appellate court judge. It cited the appellate decision and then gave the opinion of Meanor without stipulating he was the lower court judge. So I corrected that. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TimidGuy (talk • contribs) 20:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC).

I can't speak for TANAATS, but I am glad you're here checking this stuff. And I will and I bet tanaats will be just as through in our investigation of an pro-TM claims. Sethie 20:36, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahhh, I see your point now about Meanor. Cool. And yes I'm glad you're checking. Tanaats 20:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

• Malnak case: lower court judge Meanor says puja an issue (Hassan's freedomofmind.com) -- appellate court judge Adams says puja not an issue

See above. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

There are more such corrections needing to be made, but it takes time.

Would be willing to discuss any other corrections you think need to be made. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what we can learn from this. Of course, I feel that falsehoods and half truths found on sites such as those by Rick Ross, Robert Todd Carroll (Skeptic's Dictionary), and Steven Hassan suggest that these sites aren't reliable sources. I pointed out just one falsehood on Rick Ross's site (about the Canter and Ernst study), but there are many. All of these sites are careless in their characterizatin of Malnak. They all present half truths -- such as citing the German study but failing to note it was retracted, or citing things related to the 1986 Kropinski suit (including the Denaro affidavit) but failing to note that the suit was dismissed by the appellate court.

Again, not totally convinced that "falsehood" describes the study found on the RR site. Would be willing to discuss other errors on the RR site, but maybe that should be on private talk pages? As for Malnak, I'm not sure "careless" is necessarily true -- perhaps they feel as I do that it is the job of the lower court to determine "fact", and it is only the job of the appellate court to determine whether the "law" was followed in the proceedings of the lower court -- I don't think this of itself makes the skepdic article distorted. Ditto for Kropinksy. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Several of these points remain in the article, along with the negating point. Not sure what purpose that serves, though since these points are widely available online maybe it's good to both present the point and the negating point. Or maybe there should be a separate section or a separate article the presents the common falsehoods and half truths along with the corrections.TimidGuy 17:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

If we left out everything that was commonly available online, there would be very little "TM article" left! We could almost delete the entire article and let people google for information, pro and con, about TM. We could probably do the same thing with a ton of other articles on WP. I think that presenting the negating point is the thing to do and gives NPOV. I think that if there were a separate "falsehoods" page then we'd be in the same boat, since I'd want to present counterpoints to the points you would make there. So I don't see the point of doing that. And, AFAIK, of course you couldn't call it a "falsehoods" article without violating NPOV.

I have a problem or two myself. Personally, I think that the "Transcendental Meditation-related research" section is extremely distorted. I would like to point out that, for example, none of the research investigates the psychological impact of long-term intensive rouding. IMO I think that the "good" research on TM accurately reveals that "intense relaxation can be a very good thing" but that this leaves the reader with a very false impression that the TMO position on the "absolute goodness" of TM is completely true. I feel very strongly that focusing the public's attention on the "science of relaxation" is an excellent example of a very sophisticated job of spin doctoring. On my own website I can get on my soapbox about this and scream this to the world (or at least the small fraction of the world that visits the site :) ). But on WP, after my first chaotic introduction to WP guidelines I have learned that I have to grin and bear it and to focus on providing verifiable counterpoints. Tanaats 19:11, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

My mantra is: cite sources, cite sources, cite sources. Which you are doing and I am doing. As for half-truth, lies, etc., etc. If you can't find sources which say that, well, refer to my mantra. I concur that the one Rick Ross quote sure as heck seems different from the study I read. And the TM claim that the mantra is meaningless sure seems different from what I read from ex-Tm teachers.

The bottom line is, cite sources, cite sources. It is not up to you or me to figure all of this out. Just cite sources. As you are doing, as I am doing.

Is TM a religion, who knows? But we can cite sources both from the TM side and the other side which address the issue. Etc., etc., etc.

Without me, I bet on the puja issue, you'd just cite the judge's opinion that the puja is secular! Without you I would not have found the judge who said it was! Where is the conflict for you? Wihtout me, would there be a single critical study in this piece?

If you look at my long edit history with this page, not once have I removed a statement that was well sourced and says TM is good, benefitial etc, nor have I challenged any of the pro+tm things you have put in that was wel sourced. All I have sought to do is to include the criticisms. How could we be at cross purposes here? Sethie 19:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

The "yagya" page

So what do we call the yagya page? "Maharishi Yagya Program"? And what about jyotish, it seems to be inextricably linked with yagayas. Tanaats 01:10, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Tanaats, for asking. "Maharishi Yagya" is the registered trademark so let's go with that. And thanks again for all the improvements you're making to the various articles. And it's fine that you qualified the Maharishi and TM-Sidhi articles by saying that "Maharishi states." I hadn't even known there was an article on the Raam.TimidGuy 12:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC).

Ok I created the Maharishi Yagya article. To start it off I inserted a quote from the TMO yagya page, then added my "Are yagyas religious?" section and quote. Tanaats 17:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for all your work on reorganizing things. Am working under deadline today so won't be able to respond to your NLP question or look at your work on the other articles.TimidGuy 12:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Why the "expert" template?

Why do we have an "expert" template at the top of the article? Is an outside "expert" on the topic supposed to show up as a result? Tanaats 04:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This was put there by an anonymous user. We can delete it if you want. I've noticed that anonymous users tend to come through and tag articles without making any comment on the Talk page. I really don't think that's what Misplaced Pages has in mind. I think we're free to delete them in these instances if we disagree.TimidGuy 12:46, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I took it out. Tanaats 16:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

United States Natural Law Party?

I think that United States Natural Law Party should be merged with Natural Law Party. The USNLP article is quite redundant. Tanaats 18:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for suggesting this. I'd be inclined to leave it as it is for now. I was talking to someone about the issue. He said that the international Natural Law Parties have very different legal contexts compared to the U.S. Natural Law Party. He thought that the articles could be merged but that we'd have to make very clear distinctions -- since statements about the party in one country wouldn't necessarily apply to the party in another country. Since I'm not up to speed on this, I'd like to hold off for a while. But I definitely think we should have this as a goal.TimidGuy 16:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure, no problem with putting it off. It's not an urgent thing, more of a "nice to have". Tanaats 19:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

OK. Thanks.TimidGuy 20:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Maharishi Jyotish?

The Maharishi Yagya page references "Maharishi Jyotish", yet doesn't explain what that is. Maybe there should be a "Maharishi Jyotish" page. Tanaats 01:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it seems like there should be. Thanks.TimidGuy 12:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

propose subdividing scientific research into sub-catagories: pratical and theoretical

TM researchers approach TM research from two angles: practical, studies where results arre used to by the TM organization to promote the practice, and theoretical. where the researchers attempt to fit findings about TM and any long-term changes due to the practice into the theoretical framework that MMY provides, and reconcile this framework with the modern scientific world-view. The wiki entry sorta covers the practical aspect, but completely ignores the theoretical aspect. The most recent research and theories concentrate on things like correlating reports of transcendental consciousness with physiological changes in the brain and physiological markers such as breath suspension. The bleeding edge is Travis's work on thalamic activity during TM based on brain imaging studies of meditators. Travis and Wallace and others have developed a theory to explain HOW TM works from a neural-circuit perspective and ongoing work is trying to see if this theory works. Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice Sparaig 01:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good. I'd say go ahead. Maybe not too long. Someone else I know is also planning to work on the research section. He feels that the current section is poorly organized and could be effectively categorized and could do a better job of highlighting the research in recent years that's appeared in the top medical journals.

I'm hoping to add information to the section on higher states on Travis's three studies on a group of subjects experiencing cosmic consciousness.TimidGuy 12:40, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Say hi to Fred for me. Tell him I haven't completely abandoned the brain animation thing, unless he's already found someone else to do it for him... BTW, talk to Fred about the relationship between dhyana a TM. This paper says:

It is significant that, in describing the TM technique (55,56), its founder has always stated that it involves neither concentration nor contemplation, indeed that ‘dhyan’, the essence of yoga meditation (9) involves neither of these categories of mental process. In the Yoga tradition from which Transcendental Meditation comes (9), ‘dhyan’, the process of meditation, involves an expansion of awareness, mediating between the focus of ‘dharana’, when the technique is innocently introduced, and the unbounded awareness of ‘samadhi’, or transcendental consciousness, to which the mind is naturally and automatically drawn. ‘Dhyan’ does not involve concentration, for any effort or concentration interferes with the natural, expansive response of the mind. The TM technique's founder emphasizes that ‘concentration’ is a recently introduced mistranslation of the words ‘dharana’ and ‘dhyan’, and results in failure to transcend (55). It represents a misunderstanding of this aspect of ‘meditation’.

Citation 55: Travis FT. Transcendental Meditation technique In Craighead WE and Nemeroff CB (Eds.). The Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology and Behavioral Science . 2001; 3rd ed New York John Wiley & Sons pp. 1705–6 Sparaig 15:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that's great. Really clear. We can paraphrase this and cite this encyclopedia as the source. Will tell Fred about the brain animation when I see him.TimidGuy 19:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Pretty good. My only comment is that I would request a slightly changed formulation of a couple of sentences to "He teaches` that Dhyan’ does not involve concentration, for any effort or concentration interferes with the natural, expansive response of the mind. The TM technique's founder emphasizes that ‘concentration’ is a recently introduced mistranslation of the words ‘dharana’ and ‘dhyan’, and results in failure to transcend (55). Also that it represents a misunderstanding of this aspect of ‘meditation’." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tanaats (talk • contribs) 19:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC).

As long as everyone understands that it is the PAPER that is paraphrasing Fred Travis's encyclopedia entry already. Fred is the one being cited by the author to support the passage above.Sparaig 20:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope I understand you correctly. If that exact text is quoted in the paper, then fine. I just ask that it is made clear in the article that the entire quoted text is a paraphrase of Fred's statement. (And who the hell is Fred :) ) Tanaats 21:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Idon't think it is quoted from Fred's article int he encyclopedia. I was actually responding to TImidGuy about his claim that no-one at MUM had heard of MMY talk about dhyana and TM. Fred Travis is the head of MUM's Brain Research Intitute. He did his PhD work there on the EEG of Yogic Flying. He left for a while and did sleep research elsewhere, then came back.Sparaig 02:37, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for clarifying Tanaats 06:40, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops. Let's not project my ignorance of Dhyana to everyone at MUM. : ) If it's OK, I'll go ahead and put in some information about Dhyana in the next couple days, referencing the Maharishi quote that you found and then offering an explanation that would paraphrase Alex's paper and cite it. This is a great opportunity to highlight the effortless nature of the technique --using sources. Note that the original Dhyana sentences, while pleasingly written, didn't cite a source. Thanks, Sparaig, for pursuing this and for your insights and research.TimidGuy 16:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Tanaats 16:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The paper by Alex Hankey is published in the online version of Evidence-based Complementary and Alternative Medicine (eCAM) a peer-reviewed journal published by Oxford University Press. It paraphrases Fred T's encyclopedia entry. I quoted from Hankey's paper above. I see no reason why we can't use Hankey's paper as the source of the quote or some paraphrase of it, even thouh he, in turn, cites Fred's encyclopedia entry.Sparaig 16:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm quite new at "Misplaced Pages law" but as I rather feebly understand the concept that sounds like a proper "secondary source" to me. Sethie? Tanaats 19:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Cognitive Section

On my talk page I asked you to reply to my concerns I had posted last week about the cognitive section which you had not and still have not to, so I will re-post them here.

The critic in question says the movement is a cult, not the TM technique, hence the rebutal doesn't fit, at all.

Please notice that the article as it stands now, minus the German court study we do not have point-counter point right next to each other, they are divided into sections (for example the TM movement's claim about positive effects and critics claims about negative effecst are seperated.

I don't object to the information- I object to you putting it right there- and, YOU making a link between Hassan's criticisms and the studies. You are not a reliable third party source- find me someone who is and has commented on the relationship between the two. Sethie 14:54, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. I replied to you on your Talk page that I would post a response. And I did -- two days ago.

I'm ready to do an RfC. I think the rebuttal fits for the reason I said. I think that your requirement is arbitrary and unnecessary.TimidGuy 19:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry, I did not notice your response.

It is interesting to note, that to this day, nearly two weeks after I posted my reasons why I don't believe they belong together, you have responded to neither of my objections. I have even pointed you to their exact section and cut and pasted them again.

Do a RfC if you feel the pull to. Don't respond to the Comments (as in rfC) that are already here if you feel the pull not to. You are a free agent.

I have posted, and reposted very specific reasons why I do not believe they fit together. You have not responded to them. Would you be willing read the following section and actually respond to the SPECIFIC concerns I raise, which I am now posting, for the third time?

"The critic in question says the movement is a cult, not the TM technique, hence the rebutal doesn't fit, at all.

Please notice that the article as it stands now, minus the German court study we do not have point-counter point right next to each other, they are divided into sections (for example the TM movement's claim about positive effects and critics claims about negative effecst are seperated.

I don't object to the information- I object to you putting it right there- and, YOU making a link between Hassan's criticisms and the studies. You are not a reliable third party source- find me someone who is and has commented on the relationship between the two."Sethie 21:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel like my response which you hadn't noticed clearly addressed these questions.

By the way, David Orme-Johnson makes a cogent argument along these lines. I can cite him. He's published over 100 studies on TM and is one of the world's leading researchers on meditation.TimidGuy 19:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Now here is a nice solid refference that you could use without YOU connecting the dots. This citation says exactly what you want to say, so why not use it, instead of YOU putting in some of your ideas about how things are connected or not? That is my other main objection to the sources cited, you were making the connection between- these studies say X (impoved independence), and that means Y (NOT A CULT!) when the citations did not say Y. And I will not allow any sneakiness- we will make clear that Orme is talking about the TM Technique and when Hassan and the others are reffering to the TM movement. Sethie 21:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Sethie. I'm glad you think David Orme-Johnson is a good source. I'll write up a rebuttal quoting from him and using his logic.TimidGuy 21:51, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I mean, you are going to do what you are going to do and my request of you is to report on what Orme says instead of TRYING to rebute anything.Sethie 02:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

My own take on the "cult controversy" is that *of course* the TM organization is a cult... Seriously, with millions of students, tens of thousands of TM teachers, hundreds of TM centers in many dozens (100+?) countries, the claim that TM isn't a cult is ludicrous: EVERY organization of that size is a cult from the US military to Wal-Mart.. "Cult" is short for the sociological term, "sub-culture." The question is: is the TM organization a *destructive* cult?Sparaig 15:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "cult" has a myriad of denotations and connotations. This is recognized by cult critics. And, yes, the term "destructive cult" is usually much preferred by those same critics. I would prefer that usage, personally. The only problem with using it on WP is that the term has been "hijacked" to mean "cults where people die". That is not the usual meaning intended by the cult critics. There is a brief mention of the what I consider the "preferred" usage in that article, but it is not a strong enough mention IMO. I really should go over there and ask that the article be divided into two sections. Anyway, the only thing I would be concerned about with using "destructive cult" is that people might get the wrong impression of what that means from the "destructive cults" article. Maybe I should make fixing that article my next priority. Tanaats 19:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Not all former TM teachers created equal...

Here's the quote from the instituoo scientia webpage, which maintains the TM-ex archives. The article takes MMY's quote completely out of context, and erroneously claims that until 1970, he was teaching TM using a single mantra. :

The Natural Stress Relief technique ($25.00 only) is similar to the original TM taught by Maharishi in 1958, with a single basic syllable or "mantra" suitable for anybody (around 1970 Maharishi started to prescribe different "mantras", but this did not change the effects of TM at all). The Natural Stress Relief technique preserves the full effectiveness of Maharishi's TM and is 3 to 4 times more effective than Benson’s relaxation response and other techniques, including autogenic training, self-hypnosis, audio brainwave techniques, meditation techniques.

The Natural Stress Relief technique was created by Raymond Harrison (Ph.D. in physics), an expert practitioners of the original technique (since 1983) and a former TM teacher. He was charmed by the changes in EEG patterns during the practice of TM and he studied them in physical terms with another physicist, Fabrizio Coppola.

Ah, it is "natural stress relief" that is afffliated with instituto scientia:

faq.Sparaig 00:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't find an MMY quote at that site. Might be old age. Would you mind quoting the quote? And I dunno' about the single mantra thing because reports differ. Tanaats 01:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Reports may differ, but the site certainly quotes MMY in this context .Sparaig 03:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Here's the thing. I can't prove that MMY only taught one mantra in 1958, or even only taught two, but in fact, here is what he said about his meditation system and how many mantras might be found in it in 1956 in a publication called Beacon Light of the HImalayas:

For our practice we select only the suitable mantras of personal Gods. Such mantras fetch to us the grace of personal Gods and make us happier in every walk of life. --Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, c. 1955-6. Sparaig 03:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that as it's quoted in the article I believe. However, I suspect that "RAAM" is the name of a "personal god", and it is reported as being the only mantra for men in 1961. Yes, NSR might have screwed up a detail since the only mantra for women is reported in the same page to be "SHIRIRAM" and that is of course multisyllabic. Maybe NSR is using "Raam" as the monosyllabic mantra for all men and for all women, in which case of course the women are likely to get totally screwed up. But whole concept of a "single monosyllabic mantra that is used by everyone" in TM prehistoric times close enough to being correct IMO. Your mileage may differ. Tanaats 04:03, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you may be referring to his use of "Gods" (plural). Since he's totally deceived everyone for years by deliberately giving the impression that there is some big deal to "mantra selection", I'm not too worried about whether he used the plural or not. Tanaats 04:05, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

His own teacher gave out mantras based on which deity people normally worshiped, according to what I have read (same website by Paul Mason). And the only thing he's ever made a big deal out of is that "om" isn't suitable for householders and never suitable for women, which is straight from his teacher, according to Paul Mason's website.Sparaig 04:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I've heard the same thing about Guru Dev's method of mantra selection. So MMY isn't teaching/doing what Guru Dev dtaught/did. I'm not sure why you bring that up, actually.

Bu- bu- bu- but, we both just agreed that SBS discouraged women from using OM, so MMY IS teching/doing what Gurudev did. I'm not sure how you concluded otherwise from what you just said. And given that Westerners don't have personal Hindu deities, how could MMY possibly create a mantra-selection technique based on that critereon for Westerners, without first converting them to Hinduism?Sparaig 17:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't follow your first sentence. As for the second, I quite agree that it was MMY who "created" the method of mantra selection. That's my whole assertion, that MMY created the whole thing out of whole cloth rather than "receiving" it from Guru Dev as he claims. Tanaats 17:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

MMY often uses terms like "direct inspiration " to describe how he came to decide to teach. I don't know that this means that his guru *told* him to teach, or that he only had a dream or vision or intution that this is what his guru wanted him to do. As for mantra selection, age is certainly one traditional way in which mantras are selected--an abreviated form of jyotish.Sparaig 20:04, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

And yes, the TMO has for decades made a "big deal" about how the "proper" mantra must be "selected" for each individual because otherwise the "sound" used in meditation might not be "life supporting" as one's mind settles towards the bottom of the bubble chart (well, they don't say "bottom of the bubble chart":) ), and that only a teacher trained by MMY is qualified to do this selection. It all comes across as if the TM teacher were privy to esoteric secrets. The TMO certainly doesn't want the public to know that there is actually only a tiny list of mantras, and that mantras are "selected" according to a person's age, and that the whole thing is learned in literally a matter of seconds. Tanaats 06:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Marketing issues are importnt, certainly. Sparaig 16:50, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Your "marketing issue" is my "wholesale deception". I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Tanaats 17:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I should point out that what *I* was told by my TM teacher (and what I heard from all other TM teachers at that time) in 1973, is that mantra-selection is a simple, mechanical process based on the information given in the application form. The application form asked for name, age, sex, occupation, and any health problems I might have been having. Oh yeah, and address and telephone number. There's not that many different "simple, mechanical" selection methods that could be devised from that information, especially "traditional ones." Would people be more comfortable if simple, mechanical, numerology or astrology were used for mantra-selection (as is the case with Chopra's method of mantra selection via computer)?Sparaig 17:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

They would never have told a raw recruit that. It is indeed a "simple mechanical" process. I was taught my mantras and how to select a mantra by MMY in person at Fiuggi Fonte TTC. The selection process he taught me was based purely on age. And selection based on age is just as ridiculous as would be selection based on numerology or astrology. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one too. Tanaats 17:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

If you respect, as you seem to, the information that Pual Mason provides then you might be interested in his very interesting page about Guru Dev. Some quotes:

• One unique principle of the great sage that distinguishes him completely from other living saints of today is that he does not accept money as gift from his visitors or disciples.

• According to tradition only a brahmana (brahmin) can become a sannyasi (swami), and only a sannyasi can be a guru and take disciples. In a scarce Hindi book entitled 'Shri Shankaracharya UpadeshAmrita', Guru Dev is quoted upholding this view.

• On account of his varna (caste), Brahmachari Mahesh could never have hoped to succeed his master nor could he ever become a guru himself despite well over a decade of service. Tanaats 06:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In fact, a good friend, Anoop Chandola learned to meditate from Swami Shatananda Saraswati, named in the will of Swami Brahmanda Saraswati to be his successor as Shankaracharya. Professor Chandola asked his meditation teacher "What about this Maharishi who is with the Beatles? Is he legitimate?" The Shankaracharya laughed and replied "Let me put it to you this way, he would be my choice as my successor except that they won't allow it due to the caste laws" (personal conversation). BTW, if you examine how MMY has set up his organization, one doesn't pay merely for meditation instruction, but for a lifetime followup program. Further, MMY tries very hard to avoid giving guru-like advice and doesn't accept personal disciples in the sanyasin sense of the word. He created a western-style organization to avoid this issue, and credits his teacher wth all his inspiration, both when TM teachers teach TM, and at the end of every single public talk he has ever given, as far as I know. Sparaig 08:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes, the "Shankaracharya" wars... Shankaracharya Swaroopanand Saraswati told Robert Kropinsky this:

He stated that his Master had left a will which clearly stated the names of those individuals who were to assume the title and responsibilities of Shankaracharya after his death. After the murder of his Master, the next in line was Shantinand. He said Mahesh immediately had him moved into the ashram to assume authority. Then, used name after leaving India, to show that he taught under the authority of Shankaracharya.

MMY didn't leave India until 5 years after his guru died.Sparaig 18:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

In the meantime, he (Swaroopanand) said he had been given the title of Shankaracharya of Dwarka Math and travelled extensively throughout India preaching. He recalled that Shantinand did not have the proper training or credentials to hold the title of Shankaracharya, and eventually, after proving himself unfit to hold the title, the same learned pundits who had elected Brahmananda Saraswati to the throne asked Swaroopanand to take the title and responsibilities of the Jyotir Math ashram, until such time as another qualified person could be appointed. He agreed, and was given initiation as Shankaracharya of Jyotir Math..

Swaroopananda didn't get named to be Shankaracharya of Jyotirmath until about 20-25 years later.Sparaig 18:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

So "the same learned pundits who had elected Brahmananda Saraswati to the throne asked Swaroopanand to take the title and responsibilities of the Jyotir Math ashram." Once more we'll probably have to agree to disagree. You stick with your Shankaracharya and I'll stick with mine, he who was the "legal" Shankaracharya according to Hindu "law" at the time he talked to Kropinsky. (Of course Kropinsky had previously sued the TMO so that probably makes him unrealible as source.) Tanaats 17:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

You could always ask Annoop Chandola, whose uncle was part of the committee that originally named Swami Brahmanda Saraswati to the post of Shankaracharya 65 years ago, just how much politics was involved in the succession wars over the past 50 years. It is STILL on-going, you know. Swaroopananda got a court order to block Vasudevananda from the Ashram and when Vasudevananda returned, he says he found Ashram artifacts missing. He had a court issue an arrest warrant for Swaroopananda, which was later blocked. In the meantime, Swaroopananda retaliated with his own court order, and his followers attempted to enter the ashram by force in order to deliver it. The police were called to restore order and registered a complaint against Swaroopananda and his followers on behalf of Vasudevananda "accusing Swami Sswaroopananda and his followers of creating disturbance at his camp and assaulting his devotees."Sparaig 18:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the above citations are all from LAST YEAR. The controversy is on-ongoing and will likely continue indefinitely. At some point Swaroopananda will die, and Vasudevananda, being younger, will likely survive him, and any successor picked by Swaroopananda or the committee will necessarily be at least one generation removed from SBS, making Vasudevananda's claim as solid as anyone else's, since he was the hand-picked successor of Shantananda, who was the successor named in SBS's will from 65 years ago. Reminds me of the Pope Wars in Italy, actually.Sparaig 18:45, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sparaig would you be willing to only discuss issues on this talk page that pertain to the article and take other disucssions elsewhere? I ask because the talk page is quite vast and well... from my perspecitive this really isn't the place for stuff that doesn't fit in with the article. Sethie 20:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Dang... I said I would shut up and then I didn't! Shutting up again... Tanaats 21:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree to disagree

Tanaats and Sparaig -- I like Tanaats's point about agreeing to disagree. It seems like the Talk page has morphed into Alt.Meditation.Transcendental. We really need to be careful to avoid this kind of personal debate on the Talk page. It's important to stay focused on the article. At this point, it's not clear how the debate directly relates to the article. It began as a comment on the Breaking Away section. And at this point we're pretty much in agreement about changes that need to be made to that section.

We've made a lot of progress recently in improving the articles related to Maharishi, but a lot of work remains to be done. We won't accomplish that if we get off track.TimidGuy 18:06, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, I'm going to shut up, except for issues such as "dhyana" that are substantive because it is about what belongs in the article and what doesn't.Tanaats 18:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed dhyana sentences

Here are the proposed new sentences, using the sources we discussed:

Maharishi has said that Transcendental Consciousness is experienced via dhyana, a Sanskrit term which he equates with Transcendental Meditation. While dhyana is often characterized as involving concentraton or contemplation, Transcendental Meditation instead makes use of the "natural, expansive response of the mind." Maharishi says that concentration is a mistranslation of dhyana and that meditation that uses concentration results in a failure to transcend.

Should I go ahead and add them?TimidGuy 21:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Works for me! Tanaats 21:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!TimidGuy 22:13, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Lead Paragraph

I would like to add "distinguishing" feature of this technique in the lead paragraph, which was previously deleted. Transcendental Meditation is known to be one of very few, (if there are other) practices where no concentration or contemplation is involved. This is a prominent enough aspect of the technique to warrant inclusion, to my mind.

Purple Iris 22:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea to me. Sfacets had deleted the word "distinguishing," but I feel it's an appropriate word for the reason you give.

And nice to see you back here again.TimidGuy 22:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Dunno'. My MMY quote about rogue teachers is missing (though I can't find where in History this happened). Presumably it is gone because of questions as to it's sourcing.

So I think we need to discuss the subject of "sourcing". To be completely fair, can "distinguishing" be sourced? As a matter of fact, for example, can these two passages be sourced?:

A feature of this meditation program is its lack of effort, as contrasted with techniques involving concentration, or those involving contemplation or active thinking. The TM technique involves an effortless repetition of a specific sound, called a mantra. This effortless repetition, practised according to specific guidelines...

...including celebrities such as the Beatles, actor Stephen Collins, radio personality Howard Stern, film director David Lynch, Scottish musician Donovan, and actresses Mia Farrow and Heather Graham. For nearly eight years, Deepak Chopra was one of Maharishi's most prominent spokespersons and promoters of Maharishi Ayurveda or alternative medicine.

Tanaats 23:21, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

That would be Timidguy, removing it here Sethie 00:17, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, thanks. I guess I still have to learn how to read History properly. Tanaats 00:26, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

To perhaps beat this into the ground, I just happened to notice that half of the Maharishi Sthapatya Veda is based on a press conference. So let's indeed discuss this whole thing. Tanaats 03:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The celebrities who practice TM can easily be sourced. Would be happy to see Deepak cut. I think it'll be possible to find a source for the points about the technique. I'll mark it with the citation tag, and we can work on it.

The Sthapatya Veda material was largely written by someone opposed to TM (it originally had a negative anti-Christian slant). It should be easy to find a source. I'll mark it with a citation tag.

Some of the press conferences are available online via streaming video or audio. If these particular press conferences are available, then I think this is a proper souce for the passages in question (including the one I deleted).

I agree that we need to scrutinize all of the sources. It's good you're focusing on this.TimidGuy 12:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Delete German study alleging adverse effects

I'd like to delete the German study from the article. The guideline wp:rs specifies that "The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals." This study wasn't published in a scientific journal. Second, it was retracted by the German government as being scientifically flawed. Third, I believe it violates wp:v since it wasn't published in a journal and the original isn't available. And fourth, Misplaced Pages prefers sources in English.TimidGuy 17:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Reading the above paragraph, I find I have a number of questions. I have divided them into seperate subsections so you can address them, individually.Sethie 18:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:RS

Is it true that to qualify for WP:RS, something MUST be "thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals?"

Yes, when something is presented as a scientific study, I believe the guideline is clear that this is what's expected.TimidGuy 20:11, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your interpretation. Now can you please show me where it says IT MUST BE SO! And can you please show me where the German study claims to be a study?Sethie 23:08, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe the guideline is clear. And, yes, this is presented in the TM article as being a study: "A study funded by the German government found that over 75% of long term meditators experienced adverse health and psychological effects as a result of TM." I feel that this is the heart of the matter.TimidGuy 12:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

It is true that you believe that. And it is also true that I asked you to show me where in the guidelines it says that it must be so, and you responded by repeating, "I think it is so." So I ask again, where does the guidelines say that it MUST be this way?Sethie 14:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

If so, I propose we remove EVERY quote of MMY, as well as every quote from the TM website, as I do not think ANY of these statements or books meet the criteria you are suggesting!

Are you taking the position that if the US goverment conducted a study and published it's results on their own, not in a scholary journal, you believe it is in line with wiki policy to try and block it's inclusion? Sethie 18:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

"Retracted?"

Is it true that the study was "retracted by the German goverment as being scientifically flawed?" or is that your interpretation of the events? What actually happened?Sethie 18:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The court ordered that it be retracted. An appellate court overturned the retraction order, saying the lower court didn't have that authority. But the appellate court did not dispute the finding of the lower court that the study was scientifically flawed and explicitly stated:

"The federal government has not asserted a general or in any event significant, frequent or determinable causal relationship between membership in the TM movement and the appearance of mental disorders." (7C2-87EU00004, page 7)TimidGuy 20:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess the question is whether "scientifically flawed" appears in the source. Otherwise it enough to say "the appellate court did not dispute the finding of the lower court and stated:". (I think that "explicitly" is overkill.) Tanaats 21:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I am all for facts. Let's report it was retracted. And then let's report that a higher court said the lower court did not have the authority! Sethie 23:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The lower court said that the studies were not based on a scientific sampling and that they were obviously biased. The appellate court didn't dispute that. To my mind, the fact that the study didn't receive scientific scrutiny entailed in peer-reviewed scientific publication, and the determination of the lower court that it was biased and not properly conducted suggests that this isn't the kind of evidence that Misplaced Pages requires.

Here's a quote from wp:5: " means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics." Is a scientific study authoritative if it hasn't been peer-reviewed and published in a scientific journal and if a court determines that it wasn't based on a scientific sampling and was obviously biased.TimidGuy 22:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Show me a single non-authoritative source that has been cited.Sethie 23:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe that a study purporting to show adverse effects as a result of TM isn't an authoritative source if, as the guidelines say, it's not published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.TimidGuy 12:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Please notice that I asked you to show me a single non-authoritative source, and you responded by pointing to something that is not being used as a source, something that is not cited!

And so I ask again, please point to a SINGLE citation in this article which is a "non-authoritative source," and this time, please actually indicate something that is being used as a source! Sethie 14:54, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The study is presented in the article as evidence of adverse effects. The relevant guideline is this. To my mind, it isn't useful to quibble about "sources."TimidGuy 16:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

No, that is not true! The study is NOT presented in the article! Not a single citation to the actual study is presented. Other people's thoughts about the study are shown. So, for the 4th or 5th time, please show me a single citation in the article that does not meet WP:RS_Scholarship.

And as for not wanting to "quibble" over sources... then may I suggest writing in a blog? The foundation of wikipedia is sources.Sethie 16:45, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

German study unavailable

It is true that the actual German study is cited? Or are there citations ABOUT the German study, all of which DO meet WP:V? 18:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

From wp:v"In principle, readers should have the opportunity to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly."

I guess that I don't exactly know what they mean by that. In principle someone could find the original study, verify that it was published by a credible source, and verify that it was translated correctly (either by translating it themselves or by hiring someone to do it). Couldn't they? Tanaats 22:07, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

And you know what? They can verify the origonal sources, since they are cited IN the article! You are confusing the Study and people reporting on the study. We use citations that report on the study.

By your own logic, we must remove what the German Court said about about study, because the study isn't available? WIKIPEDIA IS FULL OF SOURCES commenting on book, studies, etc. Please show me where in wikipedia policy it says that "If a WP:V, WP:RS source comments on a study, the origonal study MUST be provided to use that source."Sethie 23:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

German translations

I am confused by your statement "Misplaced Pages preffers sources in English." I understand the idea, I am confused why you are raising it here. Can you show me any place that we are using a translation of anything German in the article?

Misplaced Pages is referencing a German study.

Yeah, so let me try asking again.

Can you show me a non-English Source anywhere in the current Wiki article? Sethie 23:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand we are using a translation provided by David Ormes, which I will note as un-sourced translation. Sethie 18:28, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

David didn't do the translation. Legal counsel paid for a certified translation. What's the source of the translation of the study?TimidGuy 20:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

You know what, thanks for the OR. Interesting information and doesn't help us here.Sethie 23:16, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Dr. O-J has authored...

In regards to "Researcher David Orme-Johnson, who has authored over 100 studies related to Transcendental Meditation (most of them peer-reviewed)"... This is cited, but the source is actually O-J talking about himself. I would prefer something like "Researcher David Orme-Johnson states that he has authored over 100 studies related to Transcendental Meditation (most of them peer-reviewed). He further states..." Tanaats 22:39, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind if you change that. But note that he lists all of his studies on his web site. Anyone could verify this by looking at any index of scientific literature.TimidGuy 12:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but IMO the citation that is actully given only supports "He states". Thanks! I've made the edit. Tanaats 18:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Technique

I doubt he has any studies on the TM movement. My hunch is they are all on the technique with some on the Sidhi program. Here is a page where the movement calls the basic meditation "The TM Technique" ], wheras the "TM program" includes advanced courses and related programs."Sethie 23:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the statement " Transcendental Mediation organization is the opposite because it submits its theories to the rigors of scientific testing.” is patently misleading. The TMO only submits a subset of its theories to scientific testing. But he did say that. Tanaats 23:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I misunderstood you. I thought you were referring to the quote I mentioned above. Yes, I agree. Tanaats 23:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sadly I am not allowed to correct Dr. Orme's misinformation, since it is in a direct quote and well. On the other hand, it is nice to catch him with his pants down, with a direct quote where he thinks he is helping the organization! Sethie 00:00, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Just so we're clear: "The TM program" consists of practicing the Transcendental Meditation technique 2x daily. The TM-Sidhis program consists of practicing the TM technique plus the TM-Sidhis techniques 2x daily. There are situations when you are encouraged to practice the TM technique or the TM and TM-SIdhis techniques MORE than twice daily, but those are listed under "advanced programs." And Orme-Johnson has published plenty of studies on the effects of the TM-technique, and on the effects of the TM program, e.g.:

Neuroreport. 2006 Aug 21;17(12):1359-63. Links

Neuroimaging of meditation's effect on brain reactivity to pain.

Orme-Johnson DW, Schneider RH, Son YD, Nidich S, Cho ZH.

Institute for Natural Medicine and Prevention, Maharishi University of Management, Fairfield, Iowa, USA. davidoj@gnt.net

Some meditation techniques reduce pain, but there have been no studies on how meditation affects the brain's response to pain. Functional magnetic resonance imaging of the response to thermally induced pain applied outside the meditation period found that long-term practitioners of the Transcendental Meditation technique showed 40-50% fewer voxels responding to pain in the thalamus and total brain than in healthy matched controls interested in learning the technique. After the controls learned the technique and practiced it for 5 months, their response decreased by 40-50% in the thalamus, prefrontal cortex, total brain, and marginally in the anterior cingulate cortex. The results suggest that the Transcendental Meditation technique longitudinally reduces the affective/motivational dimension of the brain's response to pain.

adding a personal dig: Tannats was trained as a TM teacher. He knows the terminology better than I do, and yet he didn't bother to correct your misconceptions. Why is that, I wonder...Sparaig 16:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

When I was "in", the use of the word "Program" wasn't introduced until "sidha's" began returning from Switzerland. They would go off in secret and "do their program". I don't recall the TM technique being called the "TM program" while I was in, so I wasn't current on the marketing spin. And, FWIW, TimidGuy who I understand is a professor at MUM didn't correct Sethie either, so IMO you are applying a bit of a double standard anyway. Tanaats 18:51, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, but why use "professor" with the quotes, are are you now dragging TimidGuy into this? BTW, I recall it being "TM program" and "TM technique" even 30 years ago or so, though perhaps the legal department wasn't quite as strict as it is now.Sparaig 03:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I apologize about the quotes. I meant to italicize the word "professor". Tanaats 17:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, that is the second time you have insulted me. Can you tolerate having a discussion, however heated it gets, without resorting to insult? Tanaats 22:29, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

You're correct. I've had a bad few days and was taking it out here, sorry. Sparaig 03:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! That is very good of you. And I hope things improve for you. Tanaats 17:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Might be nice to get another opinion

Sethie and Tanaats -- thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your comments.

I'm just really curious what Misplaced Pages's standards of evidence are. I'd really like to explore the issue of the German study further, possibly starting with a Request for Comment. I feel like the two key guidelines that apply are wp:5, which says that authoritative sources are especially important on controversial topics (alleged adverse effects of TM), and wp:rs, which says that studies should receive the scrutiny of the scientific community by being published in peer-reviewed journals. In this case, not only did the German study not receive this scrutiny, but a German court found that it didn't use sound scientific methodology and was biased. I'd like to get the opinion of neutral parties. TimidGuy 12:51, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummm not sure why you are repeating the same arguements you presented above?

I am always open to comments from outsiders. In fact I LOVE THEM. The more editors that show up at this article the better it becomes.

I am unclear why you wish to jump to an RFC so quickly? We have been dialogueing on this issue for less then 2 days. Sethie 15:21, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it would force us to clearly state our ponts of view. And I believe it would help focus on the heart of the matter. Otherwise it seems like we'll spend a lot of time quibbling, and I don't really have time for that. Unfortunately, I have work to do. : ( TimidGuy 16:25, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry to hear you have work to do! I enjoy our dialogues. If I win the lottery I'll give you enough so you can spend more time here! :)

Well, I beleive God is in the details.

I have pointed out numerous flaws with your reason for wishing to take out "the German Study" (the main flaw I have tried to point out is that we CANNOT take it out, since it is in not in the article!). I welcome outside input. And I am noticing that you have not been able to address any of the direct questions I have posed to you. If you do an RfC I promise to ask these EXACT same questions again, and my hunch is, others will answer them.Sethie 16:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added an RfC section here. As soon as you put in your arguments, I'll post a notice on the RfC page.TimidGuy 16:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

New OR in "Some TM teachers breaking away"?

Regarding the new passage "Since one of the hallmarks of the Transcendental Meditation program is carefully guided personal instruction based on the individual experiences of the student, the Natural Stress Relief CD's approach of a sending a CD which is not personalized to the student, makes it something very different", this strikes me as being WP:OR.

And "Teachers of the Transcendental Meditation technique have replied that offering this valuable knowledge to everyone has been a long standing commitment of the organization and that they continue to work very hard at finding funding sources. This will not only allow everyone who wants to learn the program, the opportunity to learn, but will also ensure that the organization will be available to offer the lifetime follow up programs at no extra charge". Strikes me as even more OR.

I think that these new additions should be deleted.

Otherwise I would love to put my own OR in.  :) Tanaats 05:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I want to put in my OR too!!! :)

Yeah, I removed it. Sethie 15:42, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Whether to include mention of a particular study (aborted)

This is a dispute about whether to use as evidence for adverse effects three studies by a German federal ministry.16:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• Information from three 1980 studies by a German federal ministry is included in the article as evidence of adverse effects of Transcendental Meditation. These studies weren't published in a scientific journal and weren't peer-reviewed. On December 18th, 1985, the Administrative Court of Appeals for the State of North-Rhine Westphalia, docket No. 5 A 1125/84, concluded that the studies were "not based on a scientific sampling" and were "obviously biased." More detail at . The Misplaced Pages pillars wp:5 say that it's especially important to cite authoritative sources on controversial topics: " means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics." And wp:rs specifies that "The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals." This study didn't receive adequate review and was found to be flawed by a German court. I believe it should not be included as evidence in the article.TimidGuy 16:25, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

• (1) WP:5 says "whenever possible", it doesn't rule out non-peer-reviewed studies. (2) WP:RS says "Items that fit this criteria can always be considered reliable", it doesn't say that items that don't fit those criteria are always not reliable. (3) The opinion of a judge who has no scientific training has importance in law, but has no importance whatever in determining whether a study is actually flawed from a scientific point of view. (4) The "significance" of the study is more than adequately counterpointed by the rather huge paragraph below it, giving NPOV and allowing the reader to make their own determinations. Tanaats 18:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

• I apologize to those who came here via Rfc. After 2 days of light discussion Timidguy decided he “did not have time” to “quibble” with me over the objections I raised to his proposal. I personally see this as a misuse of the RfC processe. With that said, I will now raise the same objections I raised with him:

• • The crux of the matter- which Timidguy has avoided answering. It is true that the actual German study is cited? Or are there citations ABOUT the German study, all of which DO meet WP:V, WP:RS? PLEASE SHOW ME A SINGLE non WP:RS, WP:V SOURCE IN THE ARTICLE, RIGHT NOW.

• • Is it true that we cannot cite WP:V, WP:RS materials if they discuss something published in a non-peer-reviewed, scientific journal? So, if Time magazine talks about this study, we can’t cite Time magazine? huh?

• • If something is proven wrong (which the German study has not been, it has been rebuked by one court) are we not allowed to mention it?

• • Is it true the study is used "as evidence" in this article, or is it merely listed under a section called "Alledged Harmful Effects of TM?"

• • Is it true that to qualify for WP:RS, something MUST be "thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals?" That if it isn't we CANNOT mention it? I say this position is a totally novel interpretation of wiki policies.

• Misplaced Pages is about reporting on facts, not judging the facts. The facts in this matter are clear- the German Government did a study, and reached conclusions. The TM movement sued the government. The Court said, XYZ about the study. These are the facts, all of which reported from WP:RS and WP:V sources, all of which I would like to see reported. To NOT include mention of this study, for the reasons Timidguy has listed is pure and simple OR. Timidguy on his own has decided that the study is faulty and bad. He has decided that the German Court “is right,” and he wants us to carry out the sentence of his judgment: NOT EVEN MENTION the fact that this study happened. I ask you, wiki community to say a strong NO! to this attempt of one wiki editor to be the arbitor of truth, and to say yes to letting sources do the talking, not the opinions of editors. Sethie 13:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Comments

This seems quite clear ....Since this is reported as a "biased study" without a basis in a "scientific sampling", using this study as an argument for evidence either for or against Transcendental Meditation would provide a very weak if non-existent argument.Thank you for researching and providing this clarification.(````)

Ok, we have a comment from a TM practioner. Let's wait for a comment from a knowledgable neutral party. Hell, Littleolive oil could be right, but I'd like to hear some knowledgable neutral opinions.

BTW, I do not think a the opinion of a judge has any scientific validity one way or another. Tanaats 18:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Open and shut case?

This is such an open and shut case Olive Oil and Timidguy. Here are the facts of the matter:

~The German Government via this study ALLEDGED that TM had negative effects.

~A Court said, hey, you guys made some mistakes! Some big mistakes.

End of story.

The rest is your OR and your commentary. Save it for a blog. The study, in this article is not used as an "arguement against TM." We have reported a fact- the Government said XYZ. And look at the section it is under "ALLEDGED Harmful Effects of TM."

Are you argueing that we should HIDE the fact that these allegations were made? If so, please just clearly state that- say, "Hey since the courts said it was wrong, we should HIDE IT, COVER IT UP!"

All I am asking for is a neutral reporting of the facts. What is it you are after? Sethie 19:12, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

All I'm asking for is another opinion. I know what yours is. I want to know whether experienced, neutral Wikipedians feel that this problematic study is the sort of evidence that should be introduced in an article in support of a controversial point.TimidGuy 12:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I am new to Misplaced Pages .... Is this a discussion/talk page? I thought this was a discussion and that Timid Guy was asking for discussion and or comments on the usefulness of the study. I commented, from my view viewpoint, of course, on its usefulness either for or against TM ...... How useful is it in an encylopedic format such as this? ...... As I said I thought this was a discussion page,but perhaps I have misunderstood the format(````)

Hey there Olive Oil... :) I like the name.

Yeah this is the disucssion page, and my objection below is an objection to an actual wikipedia process, an RfC, not to anyone posting their comments.

I am argueing that what objection are essentially WP:OR Origonal Research. I am saying that for you or me to evaluate the allegations is OR, and am merely saying, let's report on the FACTS, in this case, that the allegations were made and that the court responded by saying xyz. P.s. to sign you use the "~" not the "`"Sethie 22:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Sethie, I think we should consider mediation at some point. You keep objecting to the way that I use the talk page and citing Original Research, but I believe I'm using the Talk page as intended.TimidGuy 12:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

If you think meditation would be helpful I am open to it. The moment you step away from a cited fact in a WP:RS source, I will cry OR, and I hope you do the same of me. And I am happy to do and say the same with a thried party watching. Sethie 13:12, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

oops, sorry, forgot to hit shift and didn't catch it in preview page.. sorry ... many thanks for welcome (olive 23:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC))

Opposition to RfC

I believe your movement to do an RfC at this time violates the Misplaced Pages guidelines for RfC "Do not post an RfC before working towards a resolution with other article contributors first. Whatever the disagreement, the first step in resolving a dispute is to talk to the other parties involved."

Two days of LIGHT dialogue does not constitute an attempt to work towards a resolution for me. Please engate in further dialogue FIRST- then ask for a RfC- I propose we work on this issue for at least another week before engaging in a formel RfC.

If you wish to ask others to drop by at this point, I wholeheartidly support that. And I support wiki guidelines, hence I oppose an RfC at this point. Sethie 19:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Sethie, you hadn't made any arguments against the central point other than to quibble about sources (for example, arguing that the German study isn't in the article), so I went ahead with an RfC. And now you're indicating that you'd like to quibble for another week. Fine.

Please, everyone read the instructions for WP:RFC, and we'll do our best to follow the procedure next time. Consider this a trial run. Each party to the dispute should make a statement in the Statement section. And when you make a comment in the Comments section, begin with an asterisk. I think that the idea is that the parties who make statements don't then make Comments. And the example doesn't show discussion of the comments.TimidGuy 13:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Time and time again I have asked for a neutral presentation of facts, free of interpretation, that's all nothing else. And you are asking for a SUPPRESSION of facts.

I will ask the same pointed, direct questions to those who come and participate here that you were unwilling or unable to answer.

I have not made any arguement towards your central point, because your central point has no water. I have undercut your central point and you have ignored these challenges and kept repeating your central point over and over. Repitition does not make a thing so!Sethie 13:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't yet posted the RfC invitation. I'd suggest that in preparation for our future RfC you rework your Statement so that it's more concise and uses declarative sentences rather than questions. Also, I believe it should be a single paragraph. Note that in the example the Statements are brief, and that when Admin Will Beback commented in another thread he indicated the Statements should be brief. Since we're going to try again, I propose that I change the heading of the current RfC, maybe with a strikethrough or something, to indicate it's been aborted.TimidGuy 16:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I misunderstood. When you said trial run I thought you meant you were going to go ahead and do it anyway. I will sit with your suggestions, for shortnes, as for questions I doubt I will change my approach. I support a strikethrough.... and I will striktrough my inital sentence, :) once I see how you do a strikethrough and then I can copy it! Sethie 16:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. By "trial run" I meant a sort of unofficial practice.TimidGuy 16:43, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Welcome to Olive Oil

Hi there Olive Oil,

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. I had rough first few days on WP a couple of weeks ago, and you might have a few rough days too until you get it all figured out. You might start by reading the WP:5 that TimidGuy referenced earlier, and follow and read as many of the links as you can. In particular take a look at WP:OR and WP:NPOV.

And to sign your postings you put in 4 tildes in a row. When you save the page this is expanded by the Wiki software into your username and the time of day. And it's always a good idea to hit the Preview button amd make sure your entry looks like you want it to and says what you want it to, before saving the page.

Good luck. Tanaats 22:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Addressing points regarding proposed deletion of German study

Thanks, Olive, Sethie, and Tanaats. I think that the aborted RfC brought out some good points that hadn't yet been raised.

Tanaats, I thought your Statement was well-crafted. Good job. Regarding your points -- How do you know that the court didn't get expert testimony from scientists? Also, even though it could be considered NPOV given that the court decision also appears in the article, I question whether it should appear at all, especially now that Sethie has added more detail. It gives an unfair impression. It's like saying, "Bob killed a kitten." Then a judge says, well he didn't really kill the kitten. But you're left wondering about Bob. And maybe it was just all made up in the first place.. Note that the court said that in over half the cases, the person interviewed had no direct knowledge. And only persons hostile to the TM organization were interviewed. And that the "studies were prepared by religious-ideological opponents of the TM movement." I think it creates an unfair impression and that it's not what Misplaced Pages has in mind as a reliable source in the context of a controversial issue.

Sethie, your point about sources might be valid if the second-party source had provided a better analysis and context, but in this case he doesn't. He refers to it as a "study" without any context at all, giving the reader the impression that it was published in a scientific journal. He gives no acknowledgment of the problems associated with the study. He just presents it as evidence. Here's how WP:RS defines secondary sources: "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion. In general, Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable secondary sources." I don't think Carroll's presentation of the German study is "an informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration" of a primary source.

Frankly, when I read the guidelines I get a very different impression of what sources are considered acceptable than the impression I get from working on the TM article. I want to get a better frame of reference. One way to do that is via RfC. What can it hurt? You may be right.TimidGuy 16:39, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi TimidGuy. We don't know whether the court got expert testimony from scientists, so in absence of a citation to that effect we can't assume that it did. Also, the judge is still not qualified to determine as a matter of sciencee which scientists would be right, he can only determine that as a matter of law which doesn't weigh in the scientific dispute. As for the kitten anaology, you have one court saying that Bob did kill the kitten, and a higher judge saying he didn't. Again, that is important as a matter of law, but irrelevant in the scientific dispute. Since neither judge is more reliable scientically, I think it's ok that both view be presented. And NPOV-wise, more weight is given in the article to the higher judge's position. Tanaats 17:11, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, the higher court didn't dispute the finding of the lower court. It only ruled that the lower court didn't have the power to force the ministry to retract the study. And my point of view is that a study that hasn't received peer review, that hasn't been published in a scientific journal, and that a court has determined to be unscientific is a study that's problematic.TimidGuy 17:30, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Again, the opinion of a court about science is irrelevant in a scientific dispute. And any problematic nature of the study is well documented in the article. But I think we're somewhat going in circles. So I'll drop repeating my stale old arguments. Tanaats 18:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

That is your POV. Thank you for open and honestly stating it. My POV is, let's keep your POV (and mine!) out of the article, cite sources and let the reader decide.

BTW, for me the German study has problems as well, but who the fuck am I? I am just a schmo on wikipedia. The German study is cited ALL over the place in TM-critical sites and articles. I for one am glad to learn more of the "the truth" (not what "is true" but the facts that the Courts responded to the study) about it and to present that to the readers. I dislike the TM movemnet imensly, however I dislike distortions of fact even more. I think I have a solution, let's see what you think of it.

I agree the German study has issues, however your solution to bury the German study doesn't work for me. It happened and it is cited ALL over the place in critical TM literature. I propse something else, see the article. Sethie 23:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact that many sites critical of TM repeat something doesn't make it valid. Note that these sites are filled with the same half truths and errors that you've put into the article and that I've had to address. How many of these sites mention the court decision? If they were reliable sources, they would do so. Carroll should. He doesn't even mention that it wasn't published in scientific journal. I think I'll delete from the article your ad populum reference to these sites.

Thank you, Sethie, for trying to address the issue by editing the article. I sincerely appreciate your efforts. I still want to do the RfC.TimidGuy 12:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Sethie, it took me several hours before I fully appreciated your intelligent approach to contextualizing the German study. I think you're onto something. But I feel like we'd need to leave out more detail, would need to create even more context, and also justify including something that wasn't really a high-profile controversy.TimidGuy 15:41, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I am glad you like it... I think we are moving towards something that can work for both of us. I disagree that something involving a branch of a government and multiple court cases is not "high-profile" enoguh to be included.... and we'll keep working at it.

I get that you don't like it, and the more I learn about the study, I don't like it, or how it is used... and it happened. And it is notable enough that David Orme posted a reply to the issue on his website.Sethie 16:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I mean WP:V, sentence one says: "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source." I mean, are you disputing that the sources I have provided are not accurately portraying what the study says? Sethie 04:42, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

No. I'm saying that Carroll doesn't meet the definition of a secondary source.TimidGuy 12:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

What part do spirituality and religion play in Transcendental Meditation?

Hi Littleolive, I'm going to change that back. It would be better to discuss something that has already proven to be a point of contention (as when Selphie reverted your prior attempt to introduce this dichotomy) on the Talk page first. Probably you're going to have quite a bit of trouble introducting this dichotomy without WP:OR and it should really be discussed first. Tanaats 22:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

religion, spirituality, and TM

I am giving this another shot.... I really think that spirituality and religion as words have to be delineated to really begin to understand the complexity of whether TM is a religion or spiritual or both .... I am using Misplaced Pages itself to begin the article, and I think the material on Wikipeida is neither simplistic nor cut and dried on these two topics . There is argument for both slants but I think a definition of the word is important for the reader otherwise perhaps the material immediately takes a slant in one direction. By introducing the word spirituality the door opens for a deeper explanation/information than may be possible if we just approach this from the religion angle. Although I do have many opinions on this topic I was not implying one view or another, but just like language to be clear if possible. Although, I respect Sethie's suggestion that citing someone who believes TM is spiritual... well actually there are lots of people that do inside and outside the TM movement but seems to me better to go to a Misplaced Pages source that is more impartial maybe than an opinion . I think after all this is a complex philisophical point that needs lots of info.... Just a few thoughts on this (olive 22:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC))\

Hi Olive. First, FYI the preferred way to start a new section on a Talk page is to hit the "plus sign" link that the very top of the page. That way your new section will go at the bottom, which is where new sections belong. Don't worry about the one you've already just inserted, but the plus sign would be best going forward.

Have you carefully read WP:V, WP:OR, and WP:RS? If you look at prior sections on this the talk page you'll see that we're in almost constant discussion about these things. Although you can point to other Misplaced Pages articles in a "see also" sort of way, as I understand it they are not considered an RS (Reliable Source) so it's really not "better" to go to WP articles to support your position. In regards to "well actually there are lots of people that do inside and outside the TM movement" I tend to agree, but to get that into the article you have to cite an RS. Otherwise it is considered WP:OR.

Sorry. I didn't know about any of this either when I first barged in. You do have to know "Misplaced Pages Law" (actually called "Misplaced Pages Guidelines") pretty well, especially on a sometimes contentious article such as this one. The goal is to make WP an "encyclopedia" rather than a collection of a lot of "opinion pieces". Tanaats 23:20, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Okey everyone, thanks, and points taken.However being of a somewhat stubborn nature and thinking this may be important... will see if I can make this work in an appropriate format .... thanks (olive 04:12, 23 December 2006 (UTC))

:) By all means, be stubborn. And be stubborn for SOURCES, i.e. be relentless in finding sources that say what you want included. I would love to see some quotes or ideas from the TM movements side of this question, IF they're sourced.

So, if I were you, I'd hunt through TM literature or websites for places where they address the issue. Sethie 04:18, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Olive, that's the right approach. Be stubborn but seek to accomplish your edits according to the guidelines. Tanaats 16:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The Bagavat Gita

Thank you for sharing your belief that calling th Bagavat Gita a "Hindu Scripture" is an expression of a POV. I don't deny that people call it an epic. Do you deny that it considered one of THE central texts of a religion called "Hinduism?"Sethie 14:53, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

It's part of the epic poem the Mahabharata. Fine of Hindus want to treat it as scripture. But that doesn't mean that everyone considers it scripture. Maharishi's translation and commentary had nothing to do with it being Hindu scripture. Since some people consider scripture and others view it primarily as an epic, and since Maharishi's approach is unrelated to Hindus considering it scripture, then it seems like we could simply leave that as I edited it -- neither calling it an epic or scripture. Just say that Maharishi did a translation and commentary on the Bhagavad Gita. Doing otherwise is POV.TimidGuy 15:49, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

When I read the "source" you provided, it calls the Mahabharata an epic, not the BG.

And, if you read the bottom of the page, it says, "Hindu Religious Texts: Baghavad Gita." So if you are uncomfortable with "Hindu Scripture" I am willing to change it to "Hindu Religious Text."

I know you are concenred that some of my sources don't meet WP:RS... and.... I don't think this one qualifies either, since it is.... well, a store. ].

Also, "Siam" reffers to Thailand, not India.Sethie 15:55, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Fine of Hindus want to treat it as a scripture? Ummmm Well, it has a couple thousand years as a scripture. I think more accurate would be to say, "Fine of TM wants to treat it NOT as a scripture!" Sethie 15:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Note that the Bhagavad Gita is from the Mahabharata, an epic poem. On what basis can you claim that the Bhagavad Gita isn't an epic poem? If you do a Google search, you'll see that it's often referred to as an epic poem.TimidGuy 12:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Please show me where I claimed it wasn't an epic poem. If you read what I wrote, you would see I said, "I don't deny people call it an epic." Sethie 15:00, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Good. So if it's an epic poem that Hindus treat as a religious text, why did you revert my edit? Why can't we just refer to it as The Bhagavad Gita and neither call it an epic nor Hindu scripture? My feeling is that insisting on one over the other is POV intended to make TM look religious. And in this case Maharishi's commentary has nothing to do with its being Hindu scripture.TimidGuy 17:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

"An epic poem which Hindus treat as a religious text"- is truly an.... origonal expression of how the BG is viewed. I have no response to that statement. Kind of like reffering to a church, something created specifically for religious purposes, within a religious context, for thousands of years, as a "a building which people treat as a religious place!" I am not saying it is innacurate.... I'm saying.... ummm it's POV to the extreme!

You know, some people claim TM has a connection to religion. Some people say it isn't. I say, let the facts stand for themselves and let people decide. We can cite your "source," Siam Dreams, and call it a religious text!

I think the only netural way to resolve this is to present the fact that it is considered one of the key Hindu texts and present the TM claim that it is not a religious text.Sethie 14:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. I really like your intelligent and well articulated analogy. You seem to assume that Hindus created the Mahabharata. That's not self-evident. Most people agree that it's based on events that happened, just as the Greek epics were based on the Trojan wars. Typically events such as these are retained as oral traditions, which are large bodies of varied material that eventually take on the scope of an epic. The Mahabharata was itself such an oral tradition for perhaps 1,500-3,000 years before it was written. (The dates of the events themselves are a matter of debate. They're often dated via chronologies, which put them in the range of 3,000 B.C. But none of the archaelogical evidence to date seems to support this. See a book titled "A Peaceful Realm." which might lend credence to the former date.) Claiming that the Mahabharata was created as a religious text by Hindus would require substantiation. The Hindus have approprated Vedic civilization -- even the Indus Valley Civilization -- as their own. Not everyone agrees with that. (Though note that I do agree with them that the theory of the Aryan invasion isn't completely supported.) It's a complex topic.

But happiliy, it seems like we could compromise and say "the Vedic text The Bhagavad Gita." I don't think anyone would argue with that.TimidGuy 12:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you take most of this up on the Bagavat Gita page. I am not comfortable with "the Vedic Text" that's like calling the Old Testament "A Jewish Book." It is not innacurate, and it is a very slanted presentation. Sethie 17:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I have not made a change till we can sort this out, however, it is patent nonsense to link the BG to a page on the Vedas! Sethie 17:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone else made the link.TimidGuy 20:10, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Twas' me. :( Tanaats 21:08, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

:) Thanks Tanaats!

Timidguy please respond to my above challenge, or I will change it back to Hindu scripture. Sethie 16:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

"Vedic text" is simply the most general way of referring to it. No one would argue with that -- no me, not HIndus, not historians. If you don't like it, you can delete it. But "Hindu scripture" is POV for the reasons I've given. Even the Misplaced Pages article on Hinduism notes that it evolved out of the ancient Vedic tradition. Since Hinduism had no founder, like other religious, it's not easy to date its beginning or say exactly where all the influences are from. Yes, Hindus consider the Bhagavad Gita scripture, but others consider it primarily an epic, and others see it as part of the Vedic tradition. And they see Hinduism as a later religion that, in the opinion of some, lost the purity of the Vedic tradition. That's POV. But the point here isi that there are many points of view, and to refer to it as Hindu scripture is adopting one of those points of view -- in violation of the guidelines. I still believe the best solution would be what I suggested earlier -- drop the qualfying statement and refer to it simply as the Bhagavad Gita.TimidGuy 22:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Vedic text is the most simple way to reffer to it you if you believe in the TM worldview! As I said, no-one would argue that Old Testament is a "Jewish Book," but calling it JUST that and leaving it at that, is truly an attempt to conceal.

The ONLY people would see it as part of the Vedic Tradition are people in the TM movement. That "some" you reffer to are....well, you guys. For every other Hindu in the world, there is no split between the "Vedic Tradition" and Hinduism. It is a novel split introduced by MMY. And if it was better documented, it would be all over this article.

Guru Dev IS ROLLING IN HIS GRAVE OVER IT. He was a Hindu, and unlike MMY he never once lied about it or tried to hide it.

Calling it a Hindu scripture is akin to calling it was it is, outside of TM circles. Sorry buddy, you haven't convinced me.Sethie 23:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I feel like you haven't addressed my arguments. The Vedic tradition existed before Hinduism, which was a later development. The Hindus didn't create the Maharbharata. it was an oral tradition that they subsequently embraced. Many other cultures in Asia have the epic as part of their culture. The Bhagavad Gita is part of an epic that plays many different cultural roles. One of those is as Hindu scripture. (Note that according to the scholar David Frawley, the Bhagavad Gita doesn't officially belong to the sacred canon of Hinduism but is "held in high esteem." (In Search of the Cradle of Civilization, p. 14).) To use the phrase "Hindu scripture" to describe the Bhagavad Gita represents one point of view. It's true, but there are other points of view. Using this phrase in the article violates NPOV.TimidGuy 22:25, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are SERIOUSLY misrepresenting Frawley by asserting that he says it "doesn't offically belong to the sacred canon of Hinduism," especially when in the sentence before, you say "One of those is a Hindu scripture"! He may be saying it isn't OWNED by Hinduism, but to say it is not part of the canon of Hinduism is a new one to me.

I don't deny the Vedas existed before Hinduism. Tell me this. If there was a New Movement, let's say a spiritual movement, they publish their own translation of the New Testament, but deny that the book is "Christian," just teaching about the ways to live harmoniously with the truth of nature.

So, you are writing an encyclopedia article on this group (which some people have said is religious in nature, despite their denial of this) for people who are not neccesarily familiar with Chrisitanity or the New Testament. Would it feel in integrity to you to not mention the role this book played in the Christian world? Would that feel, honest and clear to you? Sethie 08:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sethie's addition regarding eduation journals

Sethie, I don't understand why you continue to add material to the article without first discussing. Why did you add the comment about not publishing in education journals? How is that a comment on the validity of the research? For example, maybe no articles have been submitted. Maybe no research has been done in this area. I feel like your hasty contributions damage the article. Look at the German study. We finally agreed that it wasn't good evidence for adverse effects. We should have discussed it first.

Again, please read the guideline on WP:Consensus.TimidGuy 20:29, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Much of our research has been in the area of health. And that's been published in absolutely the top medical journals. Why pick an area where we haven't done much empirical research and put in that as a criticism of the validity?TimidGuy 20:32, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummmm please show me where it says I need to discuss stuff first?

I'm suggesting it would be a good idea because you've been putting in material that's flawed. And typically when I try to delete it, you revert. You tend to have de facto control of the article because you have more time and you're more willing to engage in edit warring. Misplaced Pages says that consensus is important, but there are many problematic additions to the article that never achieved consensus.TimidGuy 12:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Ummmm, please show me where it says I NEED to discuss it first?

It is true you think I have defacto control. However, is it true? If so, why haven't I reverted your deletion of my addition about the eductation? Why have I sought a solution to the German study? Why haven't I reverted your deletion of my "Numerous article and websites" portion of my new German study paragraph?

You ask me to discuss changes first and you make changes without disucssing them first. If you want me to do something, I suggest you actually MODEL doing it. Sethie 14:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Timidguy you tell me why I put it there. TM claims to improve school performance. TM claims to be in peer-reviewed journals. And here is a citation saying it is not in respectable education journals. So... yeah, I'll let you explain to me why I put it in.

Yes, over 160 peer-reviwed journals, including many leading journals. By the way, he's not saying our small number of education studies are in journals that aren't respectable, just that they're not in the main ones. Of course, it would be necessary to stipulate which are the main ones.TimidGuy 12:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

And to be fair, there is a 2nd citation that I am still hunting for which will make this citation more significant... and maybe it's better if I wait till I find that one. Sethie 22:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding citations, note the guideline regarding citing the popular press, especially: "What can a popular-press article on scientific research provide? Often, the most useful thing is the name of the head researcher involved in a project, and the name of his or her institution. For instance, a newspaper article quoting Joe Smith of the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution regarding whales' response to sonar gives you a strong suggestion of where to go to find more: look up his work on the subject. Rather than citing the newspaper article, cite his published papers."TimidGuy 12:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

You know, speaking of "reliable sources" would you be willing to read the little box that appears at the top of that pages. Specificaally the word that begins with "p." And then would you be willing to let me know whether or not this is a wikipedia guideline or not? Sethie 14:50, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

German "Study" revisited...

Just so everyone understands what this study did:

The researchers were originally approached by people with complaints about TM and the TMO. They interviewed those people and asked for references to other people with complaints about TM and the TMO. They interviewed THOSE peopled and asked for more references to people who had complaints about TM and the TMO. This process continued until they couldn't find anyone else to interview. Out of what I estimate was a group of 100,000 people who had learned TM in Germany by that time, they found 10 current meditators and their spouses, 27 former meditators and 30 parents of meditators who were willing to talk privately to interviewers about issues they had with TM and the TMO. That's 37 out of 100,000 possible interviewees. And mind you, they ONLY interviewed people who had complaints. Of these 37 meditators and former meditators, 75% reported problems of some kind with TM. . When I described this procedure on a sci.psychology newsgroup, one of the respondants, who happened to have a Jewish/Yiddish-sounding name, pointed out that this was a very traditional Nazi tactic. Sparaig 10:29, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, I misread. Apparently, in no case where a non-meditating spouse had problems with the other spouse, was there an attempt to itnerview the meditating spouse. Anyone who has everf heard the "he said, she said" nature of marital problems knows that this goes beyond simple bias. Anyone who would take seriously, in the context of a "scientific investigation," the claims of one spouse about what the other was doing wrong, or whatever, without fact-checking, has gone into a form of investigation that even comic books wouldn't present seriously. Of course, Misplaced Pages has "different" standards... Sparaig 10:35, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks much, Sparaig. This is very illuminating. It's odd that Carroll would use this study as evidence in The Skeptic's Dictionary.

Now that Sethie has agreed that this "study" is problematic and isn't evidence of adverse effects, we need to figure out a rationale for it being in the article. That is, what point is it or the controversy surrounding it making about TM? Sethie hasn't really given one. If I were to include it, I would do so under a heading saying "Common Criticisms of Transcendental Meditation that Are Unfounded" or something like that.TimidGuy 12:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha. I never said it wasn't eveidence of adverse effects. Keep dreaming. I said that from my perspective it has problems.

It is true I haven't given a rationale? Or is it true you have: A)Not read it, or B) Read it and ignored it? To answer this question, please see ] one of my last responses in that section.

So, a branch of a major government conducts a study (looks like three studies), and makes some strong claims about a new religious movement. There are numerous court cases, including claims of religious bigotry in the case. Yeah, that's not notable. Sethie 14:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Common Criticisms of TM that are Unfounded reaks of OR. Try somethng more descriptive. Sethie 14:56, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Sethie, for your responses here and elsewhere. See my qualification following my sentence about needing a rationale. We need to figure out what point it's making about Transcendental Meditation, and then the heading should reflect that. I've given you what I feel most logically represents its relationship to the article. Do you have a suggestion?TimidGuy 17:46, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

"We need to figure out what point it's making about Transcendental Meditation" Is that true? Is it our job to interpret facts?

Yes. Look at the other headings. They each indicate a general category of information. Then we have the odd heading that just says "The German Study." This isn't good writing. Plus, I want it to be really clear that this isn't supporting the claim of adverse effects. Otherwise, I feel it should be deleted and will go ahead with the RfC.TimidGuy 18:24, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for saying yes to my question that you believe it is our job to interpret the facts, I will bring that up at the appropriate time in the RfC process.

You asked two questions. My "yes" was in response to the first.TimidGuy 12:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I have also moved the German study way from the Adverse effects section so as to not even insinuate a link there. If you look at the article, the German Study is a sub-header of the Controversies section. I am open to other titles, the title your presented reaks of POV and OR. Sethie 19:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Sethie. Hope you had a nice holiday. Thanks much for moving the study and for agreeing that it we could try a different subhead. I'll give it a go. Let me know what you think.TimidGuy 12:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

"I've given you what I feel most logically represents its relationship to the article." I beleive that you see it that way. Is that in fact what is it's actual relationship to the article.

I am content with the following "POV," with the following "relationship to the article"- IT HAPPENED.

I don't feel the need to qualify, figure out a point, add my own commentary via topper heading. I leave that to the sources.Sethie 17:55, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi TimidGuy. Regarding changing the subheading to "===German Court Rebukes Report on Adverse Effects of Transcendental Meditation===", where did we discuss that? I must have been asleep. Actually, the "rebuke" isn't the only thing that is mentioned in the subsection. I think that "The German study" is fine. Otherwise, to be NPOV, we'd have to introduce a balanced summary of the entire subsection into the heading, which would make it pretty long. Tanaats 21:55, 26 December 2006 (UTC) And did we agree to strip down the paragraph presenting the study? Tanaats 21:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

We discussed it in this section. Sethie agreed to changing the subhead. You didn't comment, so I went ahead. And earlier when I agreed to hold off on the RfC I said that if this is to remain it should have less detail and more context.

Ooops, sorry, I guess I missed it. I don't mind such a change in principle, but I think it may be difficult to find another subhead that is NPOV. The section is not just about the "rebuke". And regarding "less detail", as far as I can see only the detail about what the study said has been reduced. Tanaats 22:44, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I said I was open to a different one, that one doesn't work for me.... for the reasons Tanaats seem says, it does not tell the whole story. Sethie 00:52, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Sethie, for your rewrite. But it has a problem. How can "TM" sue the German government? "TM" is Transcendental Meditation. It's the name of a specific technique, not the name of an organization. I'll fix it by changing it to passive voice. Of course, I feel it doesn't tell the whole story if it doesn't tell the outcome, as my version did, but I can live with it for now.TimidGuy 17:00, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Glad we're getting closer. I'll change it to TM organization, and keep the passive. Sethie 17:10, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Denaro revisited

This is the full text of the Denaro affidavit (its not even that, apparently, but something "equivlaent" according to Denaro, as found in the TM-EX archives. These are in turn, financed by the rival meditation gruop mentioned as being a "breakaway" TM group). Note point 23: "In his more subtle and very sophisticated way Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and his charlatanism is a far more destructive and dangerous cult leader than Jim Jones who induced more than 900 people to commit suicide in Guyana." Any mention of Denaro should quote this sentence in order to provide balance (as in an example of his extreme bias).Sparaig 22:15, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Denaro says that this isn't the actual affidavit?TimidGuy 22:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

He says at the end that it is the equivalent of an affidavit.Sparaig 23:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to delete Dennis Roark

I propose to delete the paragraph in which Dennis Roark makes claims about the research. These statements are rebutted by David Orme-Johnson, but rather than rebut, I feel this should be deleted because it doesn't meet the guidelines for reliable sources.

The Misplaced Pages pillars wp:5 say that it's especially important to cite authoritative sources on controversial topics: " means citing verifiable, authoritative sources whenever possible, especially on controversial topics." In addition, WP:RS says that primary sources, such as this letter from Roark to Pat Ryan, must be published by a reliable source and should be corroborated by secondary sources: "Thus, primary materials typically require interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation, or corroboration, each of which usually constitutes original research. Misplaced Pages articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic. Any interpretive claims require secondary sources."

Behind the TM Facade isn't a reliable source for a primary document. For example, it mentions the problematic German study without noting that a German court rebuked it. In addition, it's a critic site, which WP:RS says should be treated with caution. And the claims by Roark need to be corroborated by a secondary source, which WP:RS defines as "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion. In general, Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable secondary sources."TimidGuy 22:20, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Most of this is pure and simple baloney... I wasted plenty of time reading through parts that are in between the wiki policy quotes trying to make sense of it.... and could not. However, one sentence made sense to me the one that says behind the facade doesn't meet WP:RS. I will look into it.

For now, I have replaced it, with what I hope you feel are reliable sources. Sethie 00:50, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

My first response was, you can't be serious. But sadly, I think that you are. I believe that you simply don't realize that it's not appropriate to take something out of context like this.

I've cited Misplaced Pages guidelines for why Roark shouldn't be here. Your response is that this is baloney. I'm deleting this section until you can justify its inclusion based on the guidelines. (And note that the "Falling Down the Rabbit Hole" site isn't a reliable source for a primary source document.)TimidGuy 12:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Your deletion is absurd! Are you claiming that now Orme-Johnson's website suddently isn't a reliable source?

We can discuss whether Down the Rabbit Hole is a reliable source or not, but Johnson is, unless you have had a sudden change of heart.Sethie 14:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

This quote violates WP:RS. You must address the issue that it's a primary source making claims of scientific fraud and is uncorroborated by a secondary source. In addition, as I noted above, you've made an egregious error in taking it out of context. It shouldn't be in the article.TimidGuy 16:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please sort out your confusion, is David Orme a RS or not? Please make up your mind. If it is not, please remove all refferences to his website.

Look, Orme reports that Roark made the claims, tough luck if you don't like it. Sethie 16:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, David's site does meet the guideline: it's the personal site of an expert. But I'm not arguing that. My original argument was 1) that it came from an unreliable source and 2) that it's a primary source that needs, according to the guidelines, to be corroborated by a secondary source. You addressed the first point by referencing David's site, and in so doing, taking the quote out of context in a manner that is inappropriate, and you never addressed the second point.TimidGuy 16:51, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

In response to #1, DAVID ORME IS THE SOURCE. In response to #2- "Misplaced Pages articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic. Any interpretive claims require secondary sources." What Interpretting does David Orme do? None! He just reports facts, the facts being, Roark claimed xyz. Please read and meditate on the following sentence. "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth"Sethie 17:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

It says that primary sources may be used but only to make descriptive points about a topic. How do you interpret that? My interpretation is that the quote it claiming research fraud. That's more than a descriptive point. It's a serious allegation. The guideline further says, "Thus, primary materials typically require interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation, or corroboration, each of which usually constitutes original research." To my mind, this claim of scientific fraud requires corroboration -- that is, additional evidence.

You really need to address the fact that you took it out of context. David presents the claim in order to rebut it. It's odd that you would insert the claim into the article without also inserting the rebuttal. Indeed, I would say it's unconscionable.TimidGuy 17:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please reframe from any analzying my character. If you want to exchange intellectual blows with me, let's go to a chat room and we can say all sorts of things about each other.

I am interested in facts. The fact is, Orme says Roark claimed it. Put all sorts of spin on in, ignore the first sentence of WP:V, "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth," change your mind about whether Orme is a reliable source or not once a week, but the fact of the matter is ORME SAYS ROARK SAID ______.

I'm sorry, I don't recall saying that David's site isn't a reliable source.TimidGuy 20:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Right here "This quote violates WP:RS." You say the quote violates WP:RS. The source of the quote is Orme's website. QED you are saying his website violates WP:RS.

:) Which by the way would be very, very bad for you, you wouldn't have anyone to refute the German study! Sethie 20:53, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for not being clear. I was referring to the issue of primary sources and how they can be properly used in Misplaced Pages, not whether David OJ's site was an acceptable source for the quote.TimidGuy 22:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I trust that in your mind you believe the claim of fraud requires collaberation. Just because you believe it, is it so?

Do I NEED to "address the fact that you took it out of context"? Is there a wikipedia policy which says you cannot use a citation if one user claims it is "out of context?"

Did I take it out of context, or are you just thinking that is what I did? Does David Orme somehow NOT claim that Roark made these allegations? Does Orme say, Roark claimed XYZ or not? It is really a simple question!Sethie 17:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

To my mind, the crucial issue is how to deal with primary sources, especially since they're cited a number of times, including the Denaro affidavit. We need to understand the constraint on using them that WP:RS is giving. I'll ask around in the various forums. This has been an intense discussion -- but valuable.TimidGuy 20:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Markovsky quote

I'm deleting the Markovsky quote based on the proposed guideline that I cited earlier: Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/examples. Note that WP:RS directs editors to this supporting page. Also, note that his comment is related to research on the TM-Sidhi program and the Maharishi Effect, not on Transcendental Meditation.TimidGuy 12:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Please note, for the 2nd time that is NOT A POLICY. It is a proposed policy. As such it is an invalid reason to delete something.

Then

Also, please note, for the 6th? time, despite your claims to the contray, this article is about the TM movement, not the TM technique.

And lastly, it is true you think the Barry quote is just about the TM-Sidhi, Maharishi efect, however, is it true that it is? Sethie 14:33, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Markovsky has been He's specifically addressing research on the TM-Sidhi program and the Maharishi Effect. This quote does not apply to research on Transcendental Meditation -- and it's demonstrably false to sggest that it does. It's wrong and misleading to have it here.

Oops, I hadn't intended to include this; I do believe that Markovsky was addressing the Maharishi Effect research, but it's not clear from the context. I wrote it but then intended to delete it.TimidGuy 17:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

If Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/examples is not meant to be a guideline for editors, why does WP:RS very prominently direct editors to it?

Please note, too, that the quote doesn't make any sense. What does "barraging journalists" have to do with scientific journals? Journalists have nothing to do with scientific journals. I'm going to delete the quote.TimidGuy 16:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Look Timidguy, all you need to do is read the box at the top of the page for examples, look for the big word that starts with the letter "P."

Please show me where Markovsky says, This quote only about TM-sidhi, Maharishi effect research.

It doesn't make any sense to you. To an outsider, it is easy to understand. He is saying that they flood journals with submissions, most don't get in, and sometimes one does, even if it is invalid or flawed. See the article published in JAMA, in which this is discussed.Sethie 16:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Good. When we do an RfC you'll get to explain what "barraging journalists" has to do with scientific journals. Maybe we should go ahead with the RfC. It would be a good opportunity to see whether we can apply Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/examples.

I'd like to debate Markovsky's point about prestigious journals and his assumption that TM studies are invalid or flawed, but it will be better to simply work on that section of the TM article. It doesn't reflect the extraordinary research that's been done, including saying very little about the many studies published in top medical journals in the past 15 years. This research was funded by over $20 million in grants from the National Institutes of Health. You can't imagine how competitive this funding is. This funded research has been published in the American Medical Association’s Archives of Internal Medicine, two journals of the American Heart Association (Hypertension and Stroke), the American Journal of Cardiology, etc. etc.TimidGuy 16:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I hear that you would like to debate that. I reccomend doing so on a personal blog or one of the many discussion groups out there.

Or, if you can get yourself published somewhere, we can quote you.

It is interesting to me that you are having trouble acknowledging that WP:R_S/e is a "PROPPOSED" guideline and not a guideline. I look forward to a very ummmmm easy? debate with you over it in a RfC.Sethie 17:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

In what sense didn't I acknowledge it? See the very first sentence of this thread: "I'm deleting the Markovsky quote based on the proposed guideline. . ."TimidGuy 17:24, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

You acknowledge it in word once... just not in deed! Then you say, "If Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/examples is not meant to be a guideline for editors" Which implies you think it is a meant to be a guideline. No wait, you don't imply that, you ummmmm, SAY IT!

Would a police officer write someone a ticket for breaking a law that had not passed yet? Yet you are using a proposal as justification for actions now. Sethie 17:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Using primary sources

Thanks again for the discussion on whether to include the quote from Dennis Roark alleging that research on Transcendental Meditation is fraudulent. I want to start a new thread in which we focus on the crucial issue regarding this quote: that it's a primary source and that there are constraints on using primary sources in Misplaced Pages. In this case, Misplaced Pages says that a letlter (such as this letter from Dennis Roark to Pat Ryan) is a primary source.

WP:RS says ""Misplaced Pages articles may use primary sources, so long as they have been published by a reliable source, but only to make descriptive points about the topic." So the question is, what is meant by the limitation that a primary source can be used only to make a descriptive point about a topic? An admin who contributes to the guidelines gave this explanation: 'If you simply want to establish that someone said something in a letter, then the letter is a good source for that fact, although it might or might not be relevant, depending who wrote the letter, whether the letter has been quoted in this connection, etc. If you want to establish the truth of the fact itself, the fact that someone said it in a letter doesn't do it."

Further, another admin made the point that "The example given is exactly what you can't use. As described, its use is to illustrate a contentious point. Applying our policies it is original research using an unreliable source." And "What is needed is third party publication with some measure of peer review. If all that was involved was just a noncontroversial fact, its use might be OK, but alleged fraud is controversial by nature. "

So as I understand it, an allegation of fraud is a contentious point that needs solid evidence. Simply quoting a primary source isn't sufficient evidence to say the research on Transcendental Meditation is fraudulent. A corroborating reliable secondary source is required. And I believe that the guidelines suggest that it's not appropriate to include this quote from Roark.

(By the way, I'm not presenting these quotes from admins as judgment -- that can only take place in the context of the dispute procedures. I am presenting them as a way of helping the discussion along.)TimidGuy 13:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I watched your dialogue with the people on WP:RS, now that you are done, I will continue the dialogue there and we'll see what happens. I purposely did not interfere in your dialogue, I gave you a chance to "work the crowd" with your presentation of the situation, I ask that you offer me the same respect and let me have my own dialogue.

It is interesting that you think I want to "establish the truth of the fact," despite my constant repitiion that I am interested in facts, like _____ said _____. It is interesting that you think I wish to say, "Research on TM is fraudulent," I have no such interest in making such a claim. Oh well. Sethie 14:59, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The issue is that this primary source that's quoted in the article is alleging fraud and it's not corroborated in any way. Note that the JAMA article gave no evidence of fraudulent research -- it was focused in the marketing of herbal products. If the article on Transcendental Meditation is going to say that the research is fraudulent, I believe that the guidelines say there needs to be evidence beyond a quote from a letter. If no such evidence is given, the quote shouldn't be in the article.TimidGuy 16:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out that I left out one of the key facts- the finding os the TM Jama article were rebuked, along with the movement.

Please show me where "the article on Transcendental Meditation says the research is fraudulent."Sethie 16:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Here the article is alleging fraud by quoting Roark.TimidGuy 16:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The place you pointed to does not say, "TM research is fraudulent" (citation: David Orme's Website), it says, ____ said _____.

So, please show me where "the article on Transcendental Meditation says the research is fraudulent."Sethie 16:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

You haven't addressed the issues regarding the appropriate use of a primary source. The next step, I believe, is an RfC.TimidGuy 20:19, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem here, but can we wait until Sethie gets back? Tanaats 21:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

To elaborate, if we do it while he is gone, since RfCs aren't binding we'll just end up doing it all over again when he gets back. Tanaats 21:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Can't have a dispute procedure without the disputant. TimidGuy 02:25, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I had been looking at the guideline WP:RS but found a more clearly stated policy on the WP:OR page: "An article or section of an article that relies on a primary source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims." The accuracy of Roark's claim is not easily verifiable by any reasonable person; plus, it violates the policy because it makes the evalautive claim of fraud." TimidGuy 12:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Dunno'. I'll be interested to see how this ultimately sorts out. I see "quotes" and "so-and-so states" throughout WP. For example: "Maharishi teaches that the Transcendental Meditation technique comes from the ancient Vedic tradition of India." AFAIK this is something from a primary source that cannot be verified by any reasonable educated person without specialist knowledge. Or...

• Maharishi has said that Transcendental Consciousness is experienced via dhyana, a Sanskrit term which he equates with Transcendental Meditation.
• Maharishi has taught that the Transcendental Meditation technique allows the mind to contact an underlying field of existence.
• I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. (Max Planck)

So I'm confused. Tanaats 16:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point. How would it be if we sort out the current issue first and then, based on what we learn, examine whatever points you want to challenge? TimidGuy 16:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Works for me! Tanaats 17:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I'm going to go ahead and delete this. No one has addressed the point I raise about the inappropriate use of a primary source and that makes a conntroversial claim that's not corroborated. And my reservation about this particular use of a primary source has been confirmed by experienced Admins who've also served on the Arbitration Board. TimidGuy 12:57, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

JAMA article

Hi, Sethie. Earlier we achieved consensus on moving the JAMA material to the article on Maharishi Vedic Medicine, since it has to do with marketing of herbal products. Three editors thought it was a good idea and no one objected. Now you've put it back in the TM article, without discussion, without consensus. Also, you incorrectly characterized the original JAMA article by Chopra et al. It wasn't a research study. The title was "Letter from New Delhi."TimidGuy 16:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

And of course you left out the part about the $194 million lawsuit against JAMA.TimidGuy 16:45, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting my error.

You repeatedly, well, repeat, "you do things, without disucssion, without consensus" and yet you continue to edit the article without consensus and not disucss your changes first. So, each time I read that from you, and notice you do what you are asking me not to do, well, I don't really take it very seriously. As a rule of thumb, I generally don't take advice from people who contradict the advice they offer with their actions.

In that discussion of 3 editors, was part of the agreement specifically stated, AND NONE OF THE MOVED ARTICLE SHALL BE KEPT HERE? If so, I agree that I violated that concensus.

Yes. We moved it to shorten the article and to move out material not directly related to Transcendental Meditation.TimidGuy 12:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for answering a question I did not ask. Now, was part of the agreement specifically stated, AND NONE OF THE MOVED ARTICLE SHALL BE KEPT HERE?Sethie 18:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

As per your request, I will now include the lawsuit against JAMA Sethie 16:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

And another request: please explain what it has to do with the validity of the research. Why did you put it in that section?TimidGuy 17:01, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, here is a rebuke of the findings claimed in well-respected, peer-review journal. Here are STRONG allegations that there was deciet and lies around money and research. Here is an allegation, in the JOURNAL OF THE AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION that the TM movement is FALSELY seeking to pass itself off as scientifically valid Process/Technique/Healing Modality via research and articles published in journals (more citations on this coming). Please explain to me what it DOESN'T have to do with the validity of research. Sethie 17:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The original article was titled "A Letter from New Delhi." It was a general article about the value of traditional medicine and Ayurveda. The subequent article was about the alleged failure to disclose and about the marketing practices surrounding the herbal products. It said nothing about research on Transcendental Meditation. (In fact, it didn't challenge any research at all.) The article authors it criticized haven't done research on Transcendental Meditation. It's not clear how it's related to the article on Transcendental Meditation, and especially unclear what it says about the validity of the research on Transcendental Meditation.TimidGuy 20:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

That is PATENTLY FALSE on a variety of levels. The Jama article challenged the conlcusion of the Letter for New Delhi- that Ayurveda is less expensive then modern health care.

That wasn't research. It was a letter. It stated opinions. Skolnick himself, on the page you cited, describes the article as being "outside the main well of scientific articles." It wasn't a scientific study. You can't use this to discredit research. It may be that you don't understand what scientific research entails. TimidGuy 17:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You know, I do not know everything about scientific method. And, when people lie about their financial involvment in... ok AN ARTICLE which makes scientific or medical claims, and they are involved in selling the thing about which they are making claims.... I feel a bit suspicious, about the article and the organization.

Maybe I do understand it, maybe I don't, and please do not focus your commentary on me. If you feel the need to get personal, I propose we do so on another venue.Sethie 17:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

If you actually read the Jama response article, you will find that it is not soley about the Maharishi Ayurveda. It is an overall rebuke of the TM movement, including their attempts to pass themselves off as scientifically valid.

It is becoming a mantra for me, although I don't think it is having any health benefits: for the 10th time, this article is not about the TM technique, it is about the TM Movement!Sethie 16:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Please show me where JAMA mentions specific research that isn't valid. I think the article makes good points. I don't mind having it menitoned in the TM article. But it doesn't belong in this section questioning the validity of the research, because it doesn't challenge any specific research. If you feel that its criticism of marketing by the TM organization somehow renders 160 peer-reviewed studies as not being valid, then that's your opinion. And your opinion shouldn't be represented in the article.TimidGuy 17:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Easy Timidguy! The quote from Jama is under a section called "Questions to the Validity of TM research," not under ALL TM RESEARCH IS WRONG! I am willing to do a new section. Let me know what you think.Sethie 17:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. That would be great. In the past the section heading was "marketing of herbal products." How about: "Accusations of deceptive marketing of Ayur-Veda leads to lawsuit." TimidGuy 18:22, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, that wouldn't work for me, since their are numerous accusations, not just related to the Letter from Delhi. Sethie 18:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Cosmetic changes to the prior article split?

Please see User_talk:Tanaats#Article splits. Do we want to agree to do what Dreadlocke suggests? Tanaats 04:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Tanaats. Will check it out this weekend and get back to you.TimidGuy 16:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Removal of Orme

The section is about Tax-fraud. Orme does not address that, he addresses the issue that Denaro is claiming the research is flawed, which is not claimed in that section.Sethie 16:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposal to delete Denaro quotations

This article includes two controversial claims originating from a 1986 affidavit by Anthony Denaro, who was employed by Maharishi International University for approximately 10 months 1975-76. The source given in the Transcendental Meditatiion article for these particular quotes is Carroll's The Skeptic's Dictionary. One quote alleges that Maharishi University of Management is characterized by, among other things, nervous breakdowns, crime, and suicide attempts. A second quote alleges tax fraud. I believe this material shouldn't be included in the article for several reasons.

1) These controversial claims from a primary source are presented in but not corroborated by The Skeptic's Dictionary. According the to the principle WP:5, it's especially important to cite authoritative sources on controversial topics. The standard is reliable secondary sources: "In general, Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable secondary sources" (WP:RS). The guideline WP:RS defines a secondary source as: "The informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of primary sources to synthesize a conclusion." Carroll offers no informed and expert interpretation, interpolation, extrapolation or corroboration of these claims found in the affidavit. He simply quotes the document.

2) The Skeptic's Dictionary web site cites a copy of the affidavit that's on a POV web site. That web site cites the court case. However, the document is not a part of the court record. As examination of the Document Entries List shows no such document. The courthouse where this trial was held is unable to provide this document. It is only available on POV web sites. I believe this violates WP:V.

3) Carroll's The Skeptic's Dictionary is an unreliable and biased source. It contains many errors and half truths in the article on Transcendental Meditation. One that has been amply documented already on this Talk page is his citation of the German "study." Another that's been discussed here is his reference to a study by Bob Rabinoff that doesn't exist.

Controversial claims made in a primary source such as Denaro's affidavit need solid support from authoritative sources. The affidavit and its quotation without corroboration in The Skeptic's Dictionary aren't the sort of substantial evidence necessary to the high quality of sourcing that Misplaced Pages aspires to. TimidGuy 18:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi TimidGuy. I've been thinking about this. AFAIK...

1. I think we've already had an RfC about SkepDic, with the conclusion that it was indeed an RS.
2. Carroll sighted the affadavit and decided editorially that it was authentic. If his website and book are RS, then there is a presumption that he exercises adequate editorial control. All we need to do for wp:v is to established that he actually reported what we cite that he reported.
3. Again, SkepDic is an RS. Your analysis of his TM article is technically OR. As far as his presentation of the German study goes, he probably is accurately reporting what he knows about it; I didn't know that the court had rejected the study either. That does not represent bia if I'm right (and I think I probably am) and you have more than adequately counterpointed this in the article. At the very least, "bias" has not been adequately demonstrated by this example. As far as Rabinoff, IMO that a rather small error that someone has made; it's really not a major deal who did the study/studies as it really doesn't affect the conclusions that the reader will make, one way or the other. And I suspect that the error was probably made by the guy who originally attended Rabinoff's session. Rabinoff may have been unclear about it for all we know. Even if the attendee screwed up, that doesn't make Carroll an "unreliable and biased source".

And IMO the TM articles are just chock full of extraordinary claims for which we are relying on primary sources.

Tanaats 21:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Tanaats, for your thoughts. We didn't do an RfC on this. And I'd be willing to. You'd need to explain why it qualifies as a secondary source in regard to these specific claims. He simply presents very controversial claims from a primary source without any corroboration. If you read the guidelines and the discussion of them, you'll see that this is the sort of material that isn't acceptable.TimidGuy 22:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmmmm maybe. Maybe it is time to get outside help on this, although I believe we already have, but maybe it's time to do it formally. God knows we have tried to work it out.Sethie 08:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Proper citations

Hi, Sethie. If you cite a book you absolutely must use a proper citation. Also, note that you linked to an illegal copy of the JAMA article.The guidelines disallow this. TimidGuy 18:29, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

There is a policy, I can't find it, but the essence is, if you find a problem, fixit.

Saying a thing does not make it so. Please show me evidence for the belief in your mind that it is an illegal copySethie 18:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This is copyrighted material. Articles in JAMA are not freely available online. Skolnick had it on his web site and JAMA demanded he remove it. So he did, but then he simply found the illegal copy in the Wayback Machine and linked to it. This link is in violation of the guidelines. There are quite a number of such problematic links in the article.TimidGuy 12:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Undue weight

Sethie is rapidly rewriting the article again. Please see the Misplaced Pages policy from WP:NPOV on undue weight. "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." And "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. "

Look at the table of contents and the article. Approximately two-thirds of the article now constitutes criticism and controversy. I believe this violates NPOV.TimidGuy 18:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for quoting wiki guidelines and trying and failing to state a fact (two-thirds of the article... the only objective way to do this is a word-count, not looking at the TOC).... now what is it you are actually proposing or requesting?Sethie 18:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I did a word count. The total number of words is 5,122, and the number of words in the TM sections is 1,683. You can do the math -- it works out to almost exactly 67% of the article being devited to criticisms and controveries sections. This is a violation of NPOV. I am requesting that you immediately cease adding critical material to the article, since it is already in violation of NPOV. And we need to address the imbalance in the article that's already there.TimidGuy 20:02, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

You strike me as a mostly honest guy, however, I decided to re-do your math. I count a 5,012 word article with 1800 in the TM section (I don't count the other programs offered by TM as controvery). Personally, I don't like that proportion either.

However, this movement has a history of fraud, controvery, violence, extortion, false claims, absurd claims, sex scandal, pseudoscientific claims, poor research methodology, redefining terms (see Bagavat Gita), allegations of being a cult and controvery over it's religious status.

This however is not the bottom line, this is not the whole story- so how about if you work on the "good stuff" and I'll work on the diry laundry. I have so many more significant controvery to add to the article. I will agree to slow to down to allow you to catch up a bit with the "good stuff."

For fuck's sake- the movement claims it can make people levitate, turn them invsible and end wars with their minds. I think it was Denaro's affidavit.... and as part of his job he HAD to take a TM course- and the proffessor told his students that TM makes you invulernable to hurricanes, not that you could steer huricans away, that a hurrican couldn't hurt you. The movement teaches people mantras with a CLEAR link to Hindu Gods and Goddesses (I found my mantra in a book by a HINDU guru as a Saraswatti mantra!) and says, "it isn't a religion." This religious movement founded a political party! And the presidential candidate of that party challenged the other presidential candidates to get their brains scanned! It calls a physical excercie "Flying."

Dude your Guru... ehhh leader thinks he is going to create Heaven on Earth!

It is a controversial moevement. Live with it. If you don't like the proportion of controversy, add more of TM theory. Sethie 23:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

For nearly eight years...

TimidGuy, in the sentence "For nearly eight years, professionals who practice Transcendental Meditation include Gary Kaplan, professor of neurology at New York University School of Medicine, Ramani Ayer, Chairman and CEO of The Hartford Financial Services Group in Hartford, Connecticut, Bob Brown, Former Division President, Ziff-Davis Inc., and James Krag, M.D., Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association", why do you say "For nearly eight years"? It seems that most of those folks have been meditating much longer. And we could probably just start with "Professionals who practice..." anyway and let people see how long they've been practicing from the cite. Tanaats 21:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Apologies. I really appreciate your catching that. Thanks so much. And again, thanks for all that you do to improve the quality of the articles. You've done a lot of excellent copyediting.TimidGuy 22:13, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Tanaats 23:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Numerous bad edits

I reverted a bunch of sweeping changes, I will discuss each one in it's own section. Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Proffessionals?

I mean I don't doubt those people practice TM and if they aren't famous enough to have a wiki article, why are we going to list them? I like your point that numerous proffessionals practice TM, why not just say CEO's, proffessors, etc? instead of listed a bunch of names that no one knows? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not fame -- it's the fact that it shows that we're not just a weird cult. These are people who are absolutely at the top of their professions. Their credentials are impeccable. By the way, was there a reason that you deleted the link that I added at the bottom of the page to the Strss Free Schools web site? TimidGuy 02:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

That deletion was accidental, I am fine with it.

I'm not opposed to any "evidence" you wish to introduce to show that TM is not just a weird cult. But please, add evidence that creates flow in the article, not a list of names that don't mean anything to anyone.

In some ways I agree with you. A list of names has more the sound of a brochure than an encyclopedia article. It's probably not the sort of evidence to use. TimidGuy 12:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, the webpage is a big ad! Seriously, look over the page and show me any infromation about this "Association of Professionals Practicing the Transcendental Meditation Program." There is no information about this "organization!" Sethie 05:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Removingt the Maharishi Quote

The book and page number are there. Because it is formated incorrectly, you want it gone?Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not a matter of formatting, it's a matter of citing material correctly. As with the instance I noted in the article on Maharishi, if you're going to cite a book, you need to do it properly. Otherwise it's just carelessness and degrades the quality of Misplaced Pages. You can't just tell another editor, fix it yourself. You need to show that you take this seriously, not just being more careful about the sources you cite but also doing it correctly.

And of course, if I make similar errors I hope you'll bring them to my attention. Which brings me to the point -- Tanaats, I'm curious why you went to so much work to add in ref tags. Thanks for doing that. But please let me know -- is that a preferred style? Eager to know if I'm doing something wrong. Again, I always appreciate the little things you do to improve Misplaced Pages.TimidGuy 02:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Deleting Denaro

Ummm there are maybe 10 live discussions going on on this page- how about slowing down a bit?Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

=Why removed cited facts

The Jama article makes it clear this was the 2nd such deception to Jama, and that the New England Journal of Medicine had suffered the same transgression. Why remove a cited fact? Sethie 00:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The second instance was completely unrelated to JAMA. You'll need to read that again. TimidGuy 02:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

"Submission of the "Letter From New Delhi" was not the first time JAMA was uninformed about an author's connection to the Maharishi's organizations. THE JOURNAL had previously published a letter praising the beneficial effects of TM (JAMA. 1989;262:2681-2682) written by Brian M. Rees, MD, MPH, who gave the Rees Family Medical Clinic, Pacific Palisades, Calif, as his affiliation. Rees turns out to be the medical director of the Maharishi Ayur-Veda Medical Center in Pacific Palisades. " When I re-read this, it all seems clear to me. Sethie 05:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Otis

Regarding the study by Otis. The guidelines are very clear that research must be published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. It's not clear that the book by Shapiro and Walsh meets this guideline. From a description online, it appears that many of the papers collected in the book were indeed published in scientific journals, but others were not. In order for Otis to be considered a reliable source, you'd need to find out whether this paper was published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, and then cite that. I kind of doubt it was, becuase it doesn't follow the format of a scientifici paper. Though there's no way of knowing whether the version on the POV site that you link to accurately represents what was published. TimidGuy 02:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Reprinted with permission from Deane H. Shapiro and Roger N. Walsh, editors, Meditation: Classic and Contemporary Perspectives (New York: Aldine Publishing Co.), copyright 1984 by Deane H. Shapiro and Roger N. Walsh. Feel free to contest this if you wish. Sethie 05:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as I explain above, the guidelines specify that research be published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal. This isn't a scientific journal; it's a popular book. You'll need to find out whether this paper was previously published in a peer-reviewed journal and, if so, the cite that. If not, then it doesn't meet the guidelines and shouldn't be included. TimidGuy 11:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Reliable secondary sources

I've been harping a bit on the need for reliable secondary sources. I wanted to point out that the JAMA article is an excellent example of a reliable secondary source (even though it was sued for libel). The article claims deception related to publicity surrounding Ayuyr-Veda products and services and then gives a number of examples. This is the kind of corroboration and analysis that a reliable secondary source should use. Plus, JAMA is a reputable publication. Its bias is toward allopathic medicine, of course, but it's undeniably one of the top medical journals. TimidGuy 02:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

TM and Religion Revisited

As I mentioned earlier I really wanted to work on the "Is TM a Religion?" section of the TM article. However, there are so many difficulties in the article that the whole article should perhaps be adjusted/ changed/ thrown out . These are the problems as I see them. All seem to affect the legitimacy of the article as an encyclopedic entry. I haven't quoted from the article, since all of these points can be traced to the article pretty easily.

• Title: Transcendental Meditation cannot by definition be a religion, but is a meditative technique. This title sets up the article on very shaky legs.
• As a technique, transcendental Meditation doesn't encourage or discourage anything. Maybe someone or something does but not the technique
• SCI is not TM. As I understand it, SCI is the practical knowledge/ understanding about the technique, but is not the technique itself.
• We can't make jumps from TM to SCI in an argument. These are not the same thing. They may compliment each other. One may explain the other, but they aren't the same thing. A title that asks whether TM is a religion and then hops off to use anything about SCI as an argument does probably not present a strong argument, and maybe a non-existent argument.
• Maharishi came out as a teacher of spirituality not of religion.These are very different terms and mean different things. The word, God, does not automatically mean that we are talking about religion. Since we haven't defined anywhere in the article what is meant by religion we can't logically go on to

use these words as argument for or against religion. There are those who believe in God, who never went to a religious institution /Church . Emily Dickinson comes to mind. Spirituality and religion must must be defined before proof for either can be presented.

• Material on Patrick Ryan- This is ludicrous . I have been a meditator for over thirty years and I can tell you most are not celibate, many are not vegetarian, and so on and so on . Yes, this is personal experience but i suppose we can find proof for this. Can anyone who has ever known any meditators believe this, and as for using as an argument in an encyclopedia well it seems weak.
• Although this may not refer particularly to this article I am reminded that the use of the mantra, and information about the TM Sidhi program is proprietary knowledge and whether we want to use it or not, we can't legally use this information. This is illegal and shouldn't be part of Misplaced Pages as I understand the rules.

My comments about clarification of the terms religion and spirituality, bring me back to my past feeble efforts to clarify this article or deal with this idea. Many of these words must be defined before we try to present an argument in any direction. And is an encyclopedia a place to try to make a point or present an argument. How can we just present straight forward information? I will probably go ahead and try again with this article so just to let all know.(63.162.81.220 04:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC))

I am guessing this is Olive Oil, if it is, please sign in when you want to comment.

If you think Misplaced Pages is breaking the law, please call a lawyer. There is nothing in this article that was not gotten from other sources, so go after them as well.

Olive contrary to your assertion, "Title: Transcendental Meditation cannot by definition be a religion," people have asserted it is a religion, and is religios. I am not saying this makes it a religion, I am just saying that this means other people have said it is. If you want to debate this based on your own observations, would you be willing to do that elsewhere? If you want to challenge their claims with other people's claims, find sources that say what you want to say, and bring them in.

This article is not just about the TM Technique, it is about the TM movement.

You have some interesting points. Feel free to find sources that say what you want to say, and bring them in. Sethie 05:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

IMO...

• "Transcendental Meditation" refers not just to the technique, it also refers to the movement.

Transcendental Meditation is a registered service mark under the class of educational services, as a description of a specific, proprietary meditation technique. The owner of the mark is the one who has the exclusive right to control its definition and commercial use, and this is not a usage it has consented to. It is important that the term Transcendental Meditation be used correctly. As the Misplaced Pages entry about trademarks notes, an organization holding a trademark must actively enforce it in order to retain it. TimidGuy 11:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

IMO we're not violating the service mark by asserting that Transcendental Meditation has a defacto (although not de jure) alternate meaning of "the movement". Tanaats 15:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I stand by the rights of the trademark holder to stipulate the definition of Transcendental Meditation. And, hoping not to sound too stern, I also disagree with your point that this is a de facto meaning of Transcendental Meditation. Here in Misplaced Pages is the only place I've seen it used on occasion as the name of the organization. I've read over a thousand news reports about TM in the last five years, and not one has ever used it in this sense. You can look at the definitions in dictionary.com and see that it's not used in this sense. TimidGuy 16:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• SCI is in fact taught by the movement.
• The question "Is TM a religion?" refers to the movement.

See above statement about trademark. TimidGuy 11:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• I respect your opinion on the difference between spirituality and religion. However it is Original Research and inadmissible to the article.
• I respect that you find the Ryan statement ludicrous. But you can't put that into the article because it is OR.
• The Church of Scientology has copyrighted its "sacred scripture". However AFAIK the Transcendental Meditation movement has not done that, so I don't think your legal argument will hold water.

Yes, this article does present proprietary information as well as link to proprietary information. This is just one of many issues that need to be addressed.TimidGuy 11:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Based on my extensive training in the law (one year of business law :) ) I observe that is is neither copyrighted nor a trade secret. I doubt that the TMO could prevail in litigation in this matter; they couldn't even come up with an excuse to file a lawsuit in the first place. We are not violating their legal rights. Tanaats 15:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• There are no "arguments" in this article about whether TM is a religion, and no such arguments belong here. Such arguments belong either either in Wikiinfo, or in a blog, or on your own personal website. We don't define what a "religion" is in the article. We never say that TM is a religion in the article. We merely ask the question in the subheader and then provide statements from RSs that relate to that issue. The drawing of conclusions is left entirely to the reader
• You ask "And is an encyclopedia a place to try to make a point or present an argument?". I think that the answer is definitely no. If you can find a place in the article where an argument is being made, please point it out.

Nicely said. TimidGuy 11:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! :) Tanaats 15:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• You ask "How can we just present straight forward information?". If you find any information that is not straightforward then please point it out. (Information that in your own opinion is "wrong" doesn't count.) Tanaats 05:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Creating a Misplaced Pages Featured Article

Misplaced Pages’s central principle of neutrality was violated twice in the last sentence of the Introduction. Readers knowledgeable about the workings of science know that enthusiasts and detractors exist for every field, as is excellently illustrated in a widely read and respected treatise by Kuhn, the first edition of which appeared in the 1960s (Thomas S. Kuhn: The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, 3rd edition. The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1996). As a result, most readers with a scientific background would have guessed that the clause concerning the validity of the research was placed there by an editor wishing, perhaps unconsciously, to discredit the Transcendental Meditation technique. Unfortunately, readers who were less scientifically aware, who may not have known that all fields have adherents and critics, may have thought the statement concerning the validity of the research was a prevalent or “official” view simply because it appeared in print in Misplaced Pages. Thus, the apparent wish of the aforementioned editor was achieved.

The second violation of neutrality was in the last phrase of the old last sentence. Because “the TM organization” appeared in only one other place in the Introduction, without any mention of its nature or purpose, to state in the last sentence that the nature of the organization has been questioned is another biased statement. Because of the misleading context created by the first part of the sentence, it was far from neutral. This problem could have been dealt with in many ways, but the simplest and perhaps most justifiable was simply to omit any mention of “the TM organization” in the Introduction. The reasoning here is that, if “TM organization” is mentioned without a definition of its nature and purpose, then the last phrase could have no meaning for the reader not already familiar with the Transcendental Meditation program except to discredit it. Second, it is misleading and uninformed to speak of a single “TM organization” because instruction in the technique has evolved through many organizations. There is not one “TM organization.” Third, organizations of all types are like the different fields of science in that most people know organizations have both supporters and critics just as fields of science do. Again, the only reason for highlighting such an obvious fact is that someone wishes to discredit the organization, a clear display of negative bias.

The fact these biased entries were allowed to stand, in violation of the neutrality principle, is no doubt part of what has prevented this article from becoming a Featured Article. These new changes represent a step in the direction of removing that block, at least for the Introduction. Even in the Introduction, though, and in all other parts of the article, attaining further balance will require many more edits of biased entries on both sides of the issue. I look forward to the help of all editors to make it an ideal Misplaced Pages Featured Article.ChemistryProf 04:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. First of all you are making insinuations about the intentions of other editors. Let's please all observe WP:AGF.

In your first point I believe that you are referring to "The validity of that research has been questioned, as well as the nature of the organization itself." Let's also please follow WP:BRD and discuss that here and try to reach a consensus.

In regards to your second paragraph, I don't know who introduced the "TM organization" into the article, but so far no one has objected to it regardless of their POV. That doesn't mean that you are wrong. Again, let's go ahead and discuss this.

My very strong objection was to your introduction of the phrase "as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor". This is Original Research, in that it is an expression of your personal opinion that this is indeed "leading edge research". Let's please discuss that too.

Welcome to the team! Tanaats 04:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

You know Chemistryprof I worked on those very few sentences you wished to change for.... like a month, with someone who was VERY pro TM. We came up with it as a comprimise. Sorry it didn't work for you.

Don't sweat it about the featured article, you are the first person to ever even suggest it.

I strongly disagree with your belief that wikipedias NPOV was violated. The fact is, the validity of the research HAS been question as has the integrity of the organization. How is that violating NPOV? The only reason it was mentioned was because at some point the intro paragraph was pushing the POV that TM was all good and amazing, etc. Now maybe that sentence isn't neccesay? Sethie 05:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking at it now, maybe the last sentence should go? Sethie 05:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to this one?: "The validity of that research has been questioned, as well as the nature of the organization itself." Tanaats 06:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yep. The only reason it was there, was at one point a pro-TM editor was insistant that numerous positive claims be made about TM in the introductory paragraph. Now that those claims are gone, maybe we can take this out as well?Sethie 06:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Works for me. I'm definitely not attached to it. Tanaats 06:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much, guys. Really really appreciate this resolution of the matter. Great working with you.TimidGuy 12:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you guys push hard and fast on this site. I have been trying to get my responses in for the last hour, but keep getting thwarted by edit conflict messages because the discussion has changed again. Here are the comments I have been trying to insert.

Ouch! Thanks, Tanaats for biting so quickly. A fisherman's delight. In the five minutes between the time it took me to make the two carefully thought out changes in the Intro and posting my reasons for doing so, you had deftly removed them. Is this any way to treat a newcomer? So here are the changes I suggest will be a significant step toward neutrality. Replace the last sentence of the Intro with the following: "This research has its enthusiasts and its detractors, as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor. " Actually the ref cited makes a thorough case that any active field of research has its enthusiasts and its detractors, not just the "leading-edge" fields. I am not attached to the modifier "leading-edge," but I can cite reputable published sources not connected with any TM organization who have reached that conclusion. How do we find a consensus on this? My vote is to leave out the modifier for simplicity's sake. Let's hear from others on this.

Also, as per the reasons outlined in my talk of a few minutes ago, it would be appropriate to remove the phrase "according to the TM organization" in the first paragraph of the Intro. Another reason for that is that a source is already included at the end of the sentence containing this phrase, so it is unnecessarily repetitive to insert the phrase, even if it were correct. It only complicates the sourcing, and it does imply a bias on the part of the editor because there are published research papers that support this statement independent of the organization. These sorts of questions can be explored in the body of the article, but the Introduction is supposed to be short.

Hello, Sethie. Thank you for joining the discussion. Yes, I appreciate that you and other editors have worked long and hard on the Introduction, but it does, in fact, remain far from neutral. For example, the main point I am addressing now concerning the final sentence of the Intro is that all research fields have enthusiasts and detractors, even extreme ones. This is well known by scientists in any field. To say that threatens the validity of the reseach only shows a lack of understanding of research and how it evolves. Any scientist reading that last sentence knows immediately that the author of the statement wishes to discredit the research, whether he is aware of that wish or not. To maintain the neutrality of this and any other article, such statements must be avoided.

As for the goal of creating a Featured Article, my reading of the guidelines and the statements of the founder of Misplaced Pages seem to make it clear that each article needs to strive for that. Of course not all articles will succeed at it, but why not make this one one of those that do? It's not really that difficult. We just follow the guidelines. ChemistryProf 06:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

First, if I were you I'd think about backing off a bit. According to the edit counter that was your very first edit on Misplaced Pages. I also started off by just barging in and making edits, which is fine (WP:BOLD) but I got knocked back a bit and justly so because I didn't know what I was doing, and also because the other editors have a right to be "bold" also.

And yes, it certainly is an acceptable way to treat the edits of newcomers who introduce themselves by inserting OR into an article. That's exactly what happened to me when I first barged into this article, and quite justly so. You can't expect us to leave in edits that blatently violate the guidelines. You need to know the guidelines before you can expect your edits to stick. Again, please see WP:BRD.

Regarding your article suggestions, my own responses (while waiting for others to chime in) are:

• The phrase "as does any leading-edge scientific endeavor" is totally unacceptable. Even if you leave out "leading-edge" it is still absolutely OR. Have your read that yet? If not you really should or you are going to get extremely frustrated. But if you want to bring out your cites then we can certainly discuss them.
• Are we talking about the same sentence? If we leave out "according to the TM organization" then we are left with "This effortless repetition, practised according to specific guidelines, enables the practitioner's mind to settle down until the mental activity of ordinary waking consciousness is "transcended" and a state of restful alertness is experienced." This would be stating as a fact something that is pure metaphysical speculation, which would be POV. And the http://www.mum.edu/tc.html cite doesn't support presenting metaphysical speculation as a fact, it only supports the "according to the TM organization" phrase.
• It's generally a good idea to catch up on discussions before commenting anew. (Do you know how to use the History feature--I didn't at first and it's the only way to keep track of everything that goes on in the Talk page and in the article itself). Sethie and I both already agreed that the last sentence can come out. Since we are the only TM critics on the article, that about does it.
• Yes, I agree, let's all follow the guidelines.

Finally, as I was told my very first night on Misplaced Pages, it might be a good idea to slow down a bit. This is an endurance sport rather than a sprint. Tanaats 07:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Sheesh!

Pouncingtiger, please discuss with us before making any more massive deletions. Tanaats 07:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, as noted by others, I am a newbie and was not aware that this forum existed. It wasn't intentional vandalism. This is a completely different form of writing/maintaining online content than what I am used to. All content that I deleted was copied from my side and saved because I was going to start researching some of the claims and add any additional information that I thought would be appropriate and/or helpful. But I see that someone else also keeps a current record of content and has already undone "the damage". Pouncingtiger

It's been a busy night here, Pouncingtiger! And yes, Misplaced Pages is a whole different world/culture/pheonomen, etc. I have been doing it for over a year and still can't make heads or tails of it. :) Peace!Sethie 09:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Surprising to see some newbies show up. Seems like ultimately it will be useful to have a variety of perspectives. It's mostly just been the three of us in recent months. Thanks, Tanaats and Sethie, for not attacking the newbies and helpfully pointing to specific guidelines. TimidGuy 12:06, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

1. Thomas S. Kuhn: The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, 3rd edition. The University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 1996)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics