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• Refining the administrator elections process
• AI-generated images depicting living people
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Blocking an entire country for a month

Note from Jimbo: It sounds like consensus here was exactly right (yay wikipedia admins!), but the online media (digg, slashdot, techcrunch) have posted inflammatory stories. We have to be really careful about this. We all agree: blocking an entire country = bad idea. At a very minimum, let's try to make it clear by posting comments wherever we can that such a block would not happen without a lot of serious serious consideration, requiring at a minimum a decision by the ArbCom and/or me personally. It COULD happen, never say never, but I think we need to make sure the world knows that we do our best to try to keep editing open for good faith users everywhere, even to the point of putting up with a lot of random crap from bad ISPs to try to help their poor customers.--Jimbo Wales 03:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I had a look at User talk:82.148.97.69, and it seems that this IP address is one of a few used by the proxy servers of Qatar's only ISP, Qtel (which apparently also censors content). The IP address has been blocked for a month for repeated vandalism (diff) (block log). Perhaps a softblock might be sufficient? --Oden 12:33, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It does look as though some of the people who reviewed and refused to lift the block were unaware of the facts (general and specific). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 12:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

An indefinate softblock is probably best - one IP for an entire country should be treated similarly to an open proxy, I think (but soft, not hard, as it's not the resident's fault). Some kind of block is required, though - we can't let vandals get away with it just because they have a stupid ISP. --Tango 13:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tango above, as the vandalism isn't going to go away once the block expires anyawy. It definately needs to be soft (account creation allowed) in any case - the usual advice of registering an account elsewhere and logging in on the blocked IP is impossible, it seems. Probably best if we sort this out quickly. Martinp23 13:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I've made the block soft - feel free to revert. It's still at one month duration for now, though. Martinp23 13:25, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I concur with this solution. If there's (maybe inevitably) more vandalism from this address once the block expires, we should consider permanently softblocking it. Sandstein 14:31, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This has been linked to from Slashdot: . Duck and cover. Mackensen (talk) 14:38, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added an explanatory message to the top of the talk page, which has been linked to from Slashdot. I hope it's clear enough, if not feel free to improve it. Don't we have a template for this? Sandstein 15:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It made it to Digg as well: Entire country of Qatar banned from editing Misplaced Pages (Digg). --64.230.123.128 17:43, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Now on BBC:

Shame the BBC can't get the story right... Martinp23 12:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I just want to point out that at the time the address was blocked, I had no idea that I was blocking an entire country. It was not even marked as a shared IP. Although there was a comment on the discussion page, the IP was not marked as shared and I did not read that comment to mean that this was the only ISP serving Qatar. Frankly, I am stunned that an entire country can get by with only one IP address, though I understand about proxies and the like. I would like to say that I will never do this again in the future but in all honesty, it is entirely possible that I will make similar mistakes in the future. Such is not my intention and I would never have blocked this address had I known it was shared (let alone that it was an entire nation). --Yamla 20:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, for the record, I am not a U.S. citizen nor do I live in the U.S. My block was not politically motivated nor had anything to do with Al Jazeera journalists. There is no cabal, nor was this block an example of U.S. censorship, etc. etc. etc. --Yamla 20:12, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Good apology for an honest mistake; no one here suspects foul play in anyway. The sensationalism should have been avoided. —Quarl 2007-01-01 22:55Z

Indeed. As far as I can tell, everyone acted correctly - policy doesn't say what to do when a country only has one IP address, it was never anticipated... Yamla did what seemed perfectly correct at the time. --Tango 23:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

150 edits have been made from this IP in the last 21 days; while that's significant for a normal IP, it's nothing for the nation of Qatar. Per Yamla's statement above, I've unblocked this address. Ral315 (talk) 21:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This IP address should be treated like any other shared address. When we get lots of vandalism from a school, we softblock it, we should do the same here. Might as well leave it unblocked for now, but if there is any more vandalism, it will have to reblocked. --Tango 23:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

It's seven edits a day- that's statistically insignificant in my opinion. Ral315 (talk) 00:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The IP keeps posting its own version of what happened. Although that version does not appear to be inaccurate, it was reverted 2x by Jimbo (the IP keeps posting it) and 3x by me. Seeing as Jimbo is responsible for PR, beyond the IP I would hope, I'm protecting the page, and posting the decision here for review/comment. alphachimp. 15:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

This is a pity, as the story is now being reported incorrectly in Qatar. We had been blocked a number of times, for periods of days, and had complained about this on the user talk page. All of this is verifiable from the block logs and archive of the talk page, and from the block logs of previous IP addresses used by the Qtel proxy (yes, it does change). The reply from admins was that they *realised* the effect, but life is tough sometimes. It seems obvious that the slashdot front page was the only reason that blocking of qatar has finally come to an end -- 82.148.97.69 09:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems the logs were checked by an , and the story is now being reported correctly across the middle east, asia and australasia (in all languages). I don't think Jimbo managed to kill this story. 82.148.97.69 11:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Considering the amount of media attention and general complaining you would think that IP was producing more constructive contribs. We have truckloads of editors who produce more constructive edits than this IP and without the vandalism and trolling too. Frankly I feel sorry for the admin who blocked you. It was a trivial block to protect Misplaced Pages and if every admin was supposed to investigate every IP they block when the talk page doesn't even mention that this was a "sensitive" IP we wouldn't have enough admins around to kill half the vandalism we get here. MartinDK 11:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Good to see we're finally on a do-not-block list. Also nice to see that the chairwomen was dragged into the office to give a BBC interview. Pity it took a press campaign to stop the blocking. 82.148.97.69 09:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The IP would never have been blocked if it were not a continuing source of vandalism. —Centrx→talk • 09:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

if your country had a single ip address, I think it would probably be a source of vandalism, but it wouldn't be blocked 82.148.97.69 10:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if, say, all of New Hampshire (US state of comparable population) was on one ISP the chance that we would block it would be quite high. We might notice the problem sooner (more en.wiki editors in New Hampshire), but the idea that it would be treated any differently than happened here is baseless. --tjstrf talk 10:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I posted the first message on this thread with the intent of mitigating the effects of the block (it was lifted almost immediately). If this or any other ISP chooses this technical solution, we will have to find a way to accomodate those users who are affected while at the same time keeping an eye on vandalism. As far as Misplaced Pages is concerned there is no difference between this ISP and others who use a proxy server (like AOL, see Misplaced Pages:AOL). It is also possible that this could happen again, as there are probably several other small nations with only one ISP. --Oden 20:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The MediaWiki:Blockiptext page has been edited to place the IP under "sensitive IP addresses". Is this appropriate? theProject 05:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this section is just going to get more and more bloated. First it was just the UK parliament and the US Congress, because blocking them created a media frenzy and affects the legal situation, a far bigger problem than this minor Qatar mention. Then Canada was added, probably because someone wanted to prove Canada was equally important. Then the toolserver was added because it houses Anti-Vandal Bot and was erroneously blocked (and the page was never fixed, I "must notify" the Communications Committee immediately if I block the toolserver? No, that would be an entirely internal matter, no press would notice it, and it would either be an emergency or an error anyway). If the list is used in this manner it becomes meaningless, and the longer the list the less each item will be noticed. —Centrx→talk • 09:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. How stupid. I guess I can understand why this particular IP made it to the list (although a soft block would not be a bad idea), but this is starting to get out of hand. I would recommend the adder takes this into consideration and also removes the stupid toolserver address. —Pilotguy (ptt) 22:30, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

POV, uncited edits coming from this address

Could someone else please help keep an eye on the stuff coming from this IP address? Someone is adding material to a lot of articles on Serb pop singers in blatant violation of our BLP policy. The talk page is currently semi-protected and it's peculiarly difficult to have a conversation with an individual when an entire country is using one IP, and I don't want to block the thing again, for obvious reasons, -- well, unless it was absolutely necessary. Example edit: . I didn't revert every edit. Antandrus (talk) 22:55, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Incivility, disruptive editing, and stalking-like behavior from Isarig

Isarig (talk · contribs) has been disruptively editing several pages, and his behavior seems to be a result of a dispute between he and I over the Juan Cole page, which is now in mediation. A couple of days ago, he showed up on the Qur'an desecration controversy of 2005 and began obsessively reverting an edit that I had made (I had deleted the reference to "piss christ" from the article). I thought my edit was reasonable, but it was strongly objected to by an anonymous user. Isarig, who has apparently never edited that page before, suddenly showed up to defend the anon editor and to revert my change. He was asked to stop disrupting by other editors including myself. I sent the page to RfC and I explained the main reasons why I thought the "piss christ" reference was both irrelevant and trivial. I also explained that it was better situated on a general article about desecration rather than the article about a specific incident of Quran desecration that occurred at Guantanamo Bay. He never bothered to add the link to the general desecration article, but insisted that it belongs on this more specific article, even though his main argument is that they are both forms of general desecration and/or religious intolerance. This suggests to me that the only reason he is making the change on that article is to "get back" at me by reverting a change I made rather than because he actually believes his own arguments. I feel that such behavior is disruptive and I asked him to stop. I stated that if he felt strongly that "piss christ" was something specifically related to the Qur'an desecration controversy of 2005 then he should be willing to write a couple of sentences indicating what the link is between the two and enter those sentences in the article, so that the reference does not seem to come out of nowhere. He refused to do so. It seems his only interest is in one-upping me, and indeed, in another dispute a few weeks ago, he admitted as much. Instead of allowing other editors to comment on the RfC, he has continued to repeat himself on that section of the page, without responding to the arguments I brought up. That section has become a long mess of tit-for-tat arguments, making it unlikely that many other editors will take the time to sort the arguments out there and actually move the dispute forward. It is alarming to me that such energy has been expended over something that seems to me utterly noncontroversial -- adding the words "piss christ" to a totally unrelated article.

While this dispute was ongoing, I made an edit to the article Qur'an desecration, another article that Isarig had never edited before. Again, he showed up out of the blue just to revert me, and has already reverted me three times in 24 hours. I asked him to stop stalking my edits and he threatened to report me (which to me was the final straw, leading to this report). This is a pattern in my interactions with this user -- he revert-wars over petty items; he refuses to acknowledge any POV other than his own, he accuses me of personal attacks while at the same time personally attacking me. He constantly threatens to report me over minor infractions while at the same time engaging in personal attacks that are often vicious (witness, for example, this comment and this comment, from a while back, where he specifically attacks me for my occupation, tells me that I am not fit for employment in my job. While those comments are from a while ago, he again brought up my occupation as a means of attacking me -- a direct violation of WP:NPA, which suggests that personal attacks include "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme." Throughout the discussion on that page he charged me over and over with "insulting other editors" yet never cited a single example of where I had done so. I am tired of being sucked into arguments with him over petty reversions. I am here to improve the articles, not to get into shouting matches and ego battles with other editors. I don't like reporting people to WP:ANI because I prefer these matters be settled in discussion; however, when he threatened to report me for accusing him of stalking - which he has demonstrably been doing - I felt the time had come to make a report. I hope his disruptive editing, and previous blocks for incivility (in particular, a libelous comment made a while back about the subject of a WP:BLP) will be taken into account when determining how long of a block his behavior merits. csloat 22:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

This might have risen to a legitimate instance of Wikistalking, but you're harming your own case through forum shopping and selective presentation of evidence. You fail to mention that six weeks ago I responded to those same diffs at WP:PAIN and rebuked you for conduct unbecoming the dignity of the academic profession. If dispute resolution has failed so badly that you feel the need to post a biased plea for intervention here then I could open a request for arbitration - the duration and scope of the conflict make that a realistic option - yet I caution you that arbitration is slow, messy, painful, and embarrassing. Would you like to proceed? Durova 23:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Conduct unbecoming the dignity of the academic profession? I'm sorry, but this has absolutely nothing to do with my profession, that was my point. And if you have a complaint about my behavior in the classroom, or other aspects of my profession, please take it to my supervisor -- I will happily provide you with all the personal information you need about me to register your complaint. In the meantime I will ask that you, Isarig, and anyone else, refrain from using my profession to personally attack me.

In your "rebuke" you said neither side was above reproach, and I agreed with you. I did not cite the older incidents above to make the same complaint again -- I cited them to establish that Isarig's reference to my profession was out of line and followed from a historical context of such comments; that it was not just a single offhand reference. I most certainly did not expect to receive a similar insult from an administrator. I am not "forum shopping," and I resent the accusation. I cited the older incidents only to establish the history of the current dispute. Please note that when you "rebuked" me you removed your comment specifically directed at my "aggressiveness" and that I responded to you, explaining why I responded to Isarig the way I did. I have backed off of being so aggressive, as you recommended, but Isarig's abusive behavior continues. I feel the most recent wikistalking is something that cannot be resolved in WP:DR. I initiated mediation on the Juan Cole page, and we were asked by the mediator to avoid editing the article, but Isarig has continued to edit war with other users on that page even though I have backed off of it completely. Meanwhile, he stalks me on the Quran desecration pages, making arguments that seem tongue in cheek at best if not complete sophistry. I have opened an RfC on the Quran page, and presumably that will eventually reach some resolution, but what is to stop him from stalking me to another page and starting this whole mess over? I am trying to follow your advice from before and not get sucked into these wars, but he is pursuing me relentlessly. I feel that your approach is to reward the more abusive user by signalling that his abusive actions will be successful (and even joining in on the insults directed to my profession!) I don't know what you do for a living, but how would you like it if I started saying that your conduct on Misplaced Pages made you a disgrace to your profession? It doesn't matter if you are a teacher or a janitor; the insult is out of line. csloat 03:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

This has got to be one of the most blatant examples of bad faith and sheer Chutzpah I've seen on Misplaced Pages to date. csloat accusing me of incivility? After telling an editor to "grow up", and this and this (accusing other editors of not being in "their right mind") - all examples of incivility from just the past 24 hours! This from an editor whose user Talk page is full of warnings about personal attacks and incivility, from numerous editors.And the nerve of accusing me of "stalking" him, after he suddenly appeared on a page I had been editing, reverting an edit of mine and then accused me of stalking him on that page! I've warned him twice today to cease making false accusations of stalking, and I guess he believes that the best defense is an attack. Isarig 05:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

• Dispute resolution is over there, guys. Not here. --jpgordon 05:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem, JP, is that I sent them to dispute resolution six weeks ago and they're back to square one. I'm one step away from giving the matter to ArbCom. Since this is here on the board anyway, does anyone have a softer alternative? Durova 06:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

All I'm asking for is the objectionable behavior to stop. I could go through and point out the distortions in his comment above (e.g., my first edit to the Said page was not a revert of anything Isarig did; in fact I had no idea he edited that page at all until he reverted me -- which is why I thought he was stalking me there ; or I could point out that the admonition to "grow up" - the one thing that I said that could be characterized as a personal attack in the recent disputes with him - is something I subsequently struck out and I asked Isarig to show good faith and strike out his accusation that I was a "liar", which he did not do). There is currently mediation on one of the pages we have a dispute over, and there is now an RfC on another page -- I think individual disputes will eventually be resolved but my problem with Isarig is that it has become personal and he is now following me to unrelated pages and reverting things out of what seems to be spite. If he is willing to back off, I am too. But someone besides me ought to tell him that this behavior is objectionable.csloat 07:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

You have wikistalked me to at least 3 pages (Edward Said, Middle East Media Research Institute, Efraim Karsh), you falsely accused me of stalking you on one of them when it was in fact you who were stalking; you falsely accused me of stalking you despite being warned not do to so; you repeatedly use uncivil language when addressing me and other editors, and have been called on it (the above 3 are merely the tip of the iceberg from the last day alone); you are continuing to misrepresent facts (i.e.: I struck out the description of your comment as a "lie" after you had struck out your own uncivil comment) - and have the gall to complain about my behavior? Isarig 15:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Please stop the false accusations Isarig. I did not stalk you on any of those pages, as you are well aware. You demonstrably stalked me on two pages about Quran desecration -- the only reason you showed up on those pages was to revert my changes and to pick a fight with me in talk. The above "3" only identifies one instance of actual incivility and it is one I struck out and apologized for. (I had not seen that you struck out the word "lie" as you never mentioned it in your comments; I thank you for that, and perhaps we have some basis from which to move forward). I have the "gall" to complain about your behavior because it is beyond the pale, and because you continually threaten to report me for nothing while at the same time relentlessly violating the very rules you accuse me of violating. As I said above, all I want is for this behavior to stop. I just don't have time for this. Misplaced Pages is something I find valuable and rewarding, but my interactions with you have soured me on the whole enterprise. csloat 18:49, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Every single one of those pages I have mentioned are pages where I had been editing, and you had not, and you suddenly showed up shortly after one of my edits there to either directly revert one of my edits, or introduce a change in a section I had been editing that is contradictory to what I was writing. By your own definitons, these constitute stalking. Each one of the 3 above constitute an instance of incivility, and if you don't think that saying that an editor who defends a certain position is "not in his right mind" is uncivil, then that is perhaps the root of the probelm - you have no concept of what civility means. Isarig 23:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I never showed up to a page that I had not been editing just to revert you. On the Said page I edited for the first time; I was reading student papers at the time that were about Said's work, and it occurred to me to take a look at his wikipedia page. As I stated above I had no idea you edited that page before me - I don't always examine the history page before editing a page - and as another editor has confirmed, I did not revert you -- it was you who immediately reverted me. Stalking does not mean editing the same page as someone else -- it goes to the motivation for the edits. When you are going to the page specifically to revert war against someone that you had another edit war with in the past, it is considered stalking. The MEMRI page, as you know, I first went to the talk page and engaged the discussion; I did not revert you until it became pretty clear that your position in the discussion was indefensible. And you are really distorting things on the Karsh page - my first edit there appears to have been fixing a name problem on the Juan Cole link that another user had created. My first edit that you objected to was a month later, and it was an edit that you immediately reverted without discussion. All of that was months ago; to say I stalked you there is absolutely untenable. However, your actions on the Quran pages are clear cut -- you appeared there out of the blue and focused all your energy there on reverting warring against me, and you got quite abusive in the talk section. Your claim that I "have no concept of what civility means" is rich; it is itself more uncivil than the comment by me you claim is uncivil! When I said I don't think anyone in their right mind would go to the Qur'an desecration controversy of 2005 looking for information about the Piss Christ, I was making a rather obvious point that the two have nothing to do with each other, not attacking a particular editor. Can you say with a straight face that if you wanted to know more about a controversial artist from the 1980s you would type in Qur'an desecration controversy of 2005? It seems to be a stretch, at best, to call that a personal attack. csloat 23:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what your motivations are (or were) when you appeared on the pages you had editied shortly after I did to introduce a different POV than mine. Perhaps it was all an inoccent coincidnce as you allege here - orperhaps you were wikistalking me. The point is - that the same is ture of my actions. You have no idea what motivated me to edit the Quran desecration page (and never bothered to ask), you just assume I was stalkign you given the same set of circumstance that apply to your own 3 cases of stalking. Either all of them are, or none of them are. The when I defed a certain edit (as I did), and you say that whoever defends such an edit is not in their right mind you are attacking me, and being uncivil. UIt is plain and obvious to anyone who reads yoru comments. If you want certain alleged behaviour to stop, you need to stop. Isarig 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say it was an "innocent coincidence" -- I said you were distorting the facts, and as I have shown, they are extremely different in the instances you cite. My POV was obviously quite different from yours long before we started editing any of this stuff, so POV difference is not evidence of any stalking. Specifically showing up to start revert wars is. I did not say you were not in your right mind; I said nobody in their right mind would come to the Qur'an desecration controversy of 2005 looking for information about the Piss Christ. It is plain and obvious that you are distorting my words. I am going to take a break from all of this for a while, so forgive me if I don't respond when Isarig repeats his comments. I think I've made my case. csloat 23:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Please stop this misrepresentation. What you wrote in the edit I linked to above was "I can't believe anyone in their right mind would defend the addition" - which is what I did . I am quoting you verbatim - there is no need todistort your words - they are damning in their own right. Misrepresentations will not get you anywhere. Isarig 00:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Isarig on some points and disagree on others, but his/her smearing and slander really has to stop. Isarig is far too eager to call other Wikipedians "liars" if they disagree with him and I am willing to pass on to an administrator proof that his similar past accusation against me (which remains unretracted) was false. Famousdog 19:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Isarig behaves like a pathalogical edit warrer, bringing the brutal methods of the Israeli Arab conflict to the pages of Wikipidea. Abu ali 20:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Abu Ali brought this to my attention, presumably since I was involved on the Said page. Obviously I don't know the full situation, but I can say a couple things: 1. Sloat's first edit on Said wasn't a revert of Isarig, but an edit of information put up by Jayjg.. 2. Isarig then reverted Sloat and has proceded to edit war against a number of editors on that page over several days, including Zero0000, Sloat, Filius Rosadis, and me. I'd note that Isarig's last comment in talk on that page is on Dec 29, which was responded to, while he has reverted the page four times since then. That's all I can really say about the situation. Mackan79 21:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the stalking behavior, but I've certainly found Isarig to be obsessive and unreasonable on both MEMRI and Juan Cole. Also see this example of way over-the-top biting a newbie The newbie's sin was editing his own talk page. Sheesh. Time for a wiki-holiday, Isariq. --Lee Hunter 21:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I haven't been following these disputes, but I see little wrong with the 3RR warning Isarig left on Jgui's page, mentioned by Lee Hunter above. I also find Abu Ali's comment above to be way out of line, and possibly indicative of the kind of attitude that Isarig has been up against. There's an increasingly concerted effort by a number of editors to blacken anything to do with Jews, Judaism, or Israel, often involving violations of WP:V and WP:NOR and poor editing in general. Some of the criticism is perfectly legitimate, of course (when it comes to Israeli government policies), but some of it definitely isn't, and it often veers toward apparent hatred of Jews in general. In addition, there's often obvious sockpuppetry involved, and therefore a reminder not to bite the newbies misses the point.

It gets tiresome having to deal with it, but I don't know what the solution is. SlimVirgin 22:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't the 3RR warning itself (although it was blunt to the point of rudeness) it was the strange hissy fit (see the edit comment) when the user removed the warning from his talk page. --Lee Hunter 23:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The 3RR warning was a polite explanation of the 3RR rule, and a request for self-revert, as a gesture of courtesy for a newbie. There was nothing blunt nor rude about it, and it is probably much softer than WP's standard 3RR template. You come here to complain about uncivil behavior, and you call my edits a "hissy fit"? Have you no shame? Or at least, a decent mirror? The user removed the warning with an edit summary that called a valid warning for an acknowledged 3RR violation "a bogus threat". Isarig 00:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent summary. Jayjg 23:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Excellent summary of what? Are you folks seriously suggesting that my dispute with Isarig is part of a vast antisemitic conspiracy? I don't think Abu Ali's comment was reasonable either, but it is hardly evidence that he or I are part of some kind of neo-Nazi conspiracy, and I find the accusation out of line. csloat 23:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin's comment "There's an increasingly concerted effort by a number of editors to blacken anything to do with Jews, Judaism, or Israel" is a thinly veiled and attempt to accuse me of antisemitism. As SlimVirgin is an admin on WP, he should know better. Abu ali 22:41, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Turnabout is not really an answer, and Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. There is no justifiable reason for posting that someone is bringing the brutal methods of the Israeli Arab conflict to the pages of Wikipidea. Jayjg 23:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Note that SlimVirgin has repeated his accusation of antisemitism against me below Editing Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Soliciting negative comments about an editor by User:Abu ali. Any examination of my edit log will show that this personal attack is baseless and defamatory. Abu ali 22:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Where exactly is this accusation of antisemitism? Tom Harrison 23:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

He wrote of "an increasingly concerted effort by a number of editors to blacken anything to do with Jews, Judaism, or Israel" and stated that "some of it definitely isn't, and it often veers toward apparent hatred of Jews in general." That seems pretty clear to me; what isn't clear, exactly, is who he's referring to.csloat 23:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

If it's not clear that he's refering to you, then don't go out of your way to take umbrage. There was no accusation that you or anyone else is part of a neo-Nazi conspiracy. Setting that up as some kind of strawman is at least as abusive as anything anyone has said to you. Tom Harrison 23:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not setting up a strawman; the words he used were "increasingly concerted effort" that "often veers toward apparent hatred of Jews in general." I didn't take umbrage; I just asked who he was referring to. How is that abusive? csloat 23:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Abu Ali, my comments were deliberately not aimed at individuals — for obvious reasons, but also because my intention was simply to highlight the problem in general. Regarding your own edits, I'm not familiar with them. My only criticism of you is that your comment above was out of order ("Isarig behaves like a pathalogical edit warrer, bringing the brutal methods of the Israeli Arab conflict to the pages of Wikipidea"), and perhaps illustrative of the hostile atmosphere Isarig finds himself editing in. SlimVirgin 23:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

If your criticisms were not aimed at me, then who precisely are these editors who you refer to.

There's an increasingly concerted effort by a number of editors to blacken anything to do with Jews, Judaism, or Israel, often involving violations of WP:V and WP:NOR and poor editing in general. Some of the criticism is perfectly legitimate, of course (when it comes to Israeli government policies), but some of it definitely isn't, and it often veers toward apparent hatred of Jews in general.

You are making a serious accusation. So as a minimum you should be specific. Abu ali 23:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how more specific I can be. There are editors whose life's work seems to revolve around making all things connected to Israel look bad. Whether you're one of them, I have no idea, because I've never looked at your edits. It gets to be a bigger problem when it involves making all things connected to Jews look bad too. I'm not going to start giving lists of examples. I've given an example below of User:Kiyosaki, but the specifics don't matter. What matters is what we do about the general issue.

Misplaced Pages is not here to be used as a platform for pro- or anti-Israel editing. Or do you disagree with that? SlimVirgin 23:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Kiyosaki has been banned. The specifics do matter. If there are other editors who have behaved in an antisemitic manner, name them so that the can be investigated and dealt with. If there are no others then please be so kind as to withdraw the accusation. Abu ali 10:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm staggered that you can actually condense this whole thing down to "a bunch of editors out to get the Jews". Where the heck is that coming from? One of Isarig's (and his "teammates"') most egregious rv wars is his belligerent insistence that the Juan Cole article include a defamatory insinuation that Cole is literally a protocols-of-scion anti-semite and that the article must not include Cole's response to the charge. I'm offended by your remarks. --Lee Hunter 00:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry you feel offended. I can only repeat: I'm not familiar with this dispute, or with your edits or Abu Ali's, and I keep repeating that the individual accounts don't matter anyway. What matters is that there is an extremely hostile editing environment around some of these articles, as Abu Ali's comment to Isarig amply demonstrates. It's this general problem that we need to take seriously. Perhaps you could address that substantive point — but not with reference to any particular article or editor. SlimVirgin 00:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Please do not engage in misrepresentations in order to make a point. The dispute you are referring to on the Juan Cole article is currently in mediation, and I have proposed and accepted several compromises there, and explictly wrote both that the specific quote you object to is not one I am insisting on, as well as stating that Cole's response to the accusations against him (from serious academics published in reliable sources) should appear in the article. Isarig 00:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

My opinion on this was solicited. I personally have not had any problems with Isarig. There were some disputes between Isarig and others on the talk page for Al-Aqsa Intifada. There were disputes between many people on that talk page. But it seems like the disputes have been resolved in the last few days. I think, though, that part of the problem I am feeling from reading the incident noticeboard, and various talk pages, is that people are taking sides, instead of attempting to maintain NPOV wikipedia pages. I urge people who have strong viewpoints about the issues on such highly-charged topics dealing with the Arab-Israeli conflicts to set them aside while editing wikipedia pages. I hope people from all sides of these issues sign on to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Arab-Israeli conflict and pledge to work on related wikipedia pages in an NPOV way. NPOV does not favor or block viewpoints on the Arab-Israeli conflict pages. NPOV allows all significant sourced viewpoints to be put on those pages. Some people from all sides have been favoring particular POVs by selectively censoring or diminishing other sourced viewpoints. And some of the discussion on those pages has been really over-the-top instead of being focussed on the article content and meeting wikipedia guidelines. People have been making too many reversions without discussion. Resulting in slow-motion edit wars. --Timeshifter 00:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand why a complaint about "bringing the brutal methods of the Israeli Arab conflict to the pages of Wikipidea" is considered out of line but a complaint about "an increasingly concerted effort by a number of editors to blacken anything to do with Jews, Judaism, or Israel" is not. I would say we'd do well to avoid both. I would add, however, that I've seen relatively few statements like the former, and when they do appear it's usually from some short-lived crank like Kiyosaki. Statements like the latter, on the other hand, are routine on articles related to Israel/Palestine, and they are quite common even from influential editors with administrative powers.

As for Isarig, he and I have had our share of encounters. I think he can be a wilfully obstinate, baldly ideological revert-warrior (in the current Juan Cole dispute, he is claiming that Cole's dismissal of charges of antisemitism as "outrageous" constitutes an ad hominem rebuttal, and therefore cannot be included alongside the article's coverage of said charges). Beyond that, however, I've never once even suspected that he might be stalking me, and as regards personal remarks I've never found him to give worse than he got, and I'd know. I think csloat is a good and reasonable editor, and we share a position in the Cole dispute, but I don't think the stuff about Isarig's personal attacks amount to much. Csloat says hey you'd fail my class, Isarig replies hey maybe you're not qualified to teach – this is all just rhetoric. Who says talk pages can't have a little verve and color.

I don't know what policy on this is, but temperamentally I'm inclined to agree with Jayjg that going around user pages gathering up a posse seems like harassment. --G-Dett 00:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I wrote "harassment" above, where I should have said something like "bad form." Harassment has a technical meaning, and I have no idea if the action in question qualifies.--G-Dett 14:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me there was full transparency to what he did, which is what we should want. Mackan79 16:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Point taken, Mackan79.--G-Dett 20:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)--

Soliciting negative comments about an editor by User:Abu ali

After a WP:ANI report about my conduct was filed, User:Abu ali, with whom I have had several content disputes recently, has been soliciting negative input about me from any editor I have been engaged with. Today alone, he as solicited more than a dozen such editors to partcipate in the report. I find this to be a severe vioaltion of numerous WP policies, including WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF and WP:NPA. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Isarig (talk • contribs).

If you examine my contibutions, you can see that I informed other users of Isarig's WP:ANI, and did so openly and onwiki. I did not tell people to contibute to the ANI report or tell them what to say. The charge that I was "soliciting negative input" is false. The comment to the effect that this is a "severe vioaltion of numerous WP policies, including WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF and WP:NPA" is baseless, and coming from Isarig, hypocritical. Salam/Peace/Shalom Abu ali 22:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

This is silly. Abu Ali asked me what I thought, since I was involved in the incident. This report wasn't even filed by Abu Ali, was it? So, on behalf of Sloat, Abu Ali solicits comments on an ongoing ANI. This is inappropriate? Mackan79 22:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm copying my comment from the thread above, as it seems to be relevant here.

I haven't been following these disputes, but I see little wrong with the 3RR warning Isarig left on Jgui's page, mentioned by Lee Hunter above. I also find Abu Ali's comment above to be way out of line, and possibly indicative of the kind of attitude that Isarig has been up against. There's an increasingly concerted effort by a number of editors to blacken anything to do with Jews, Judaism, or Israel, often involving violations of WP:V and WP:NOR and poor editing in general. Some of the criticism is perfectly legitimate, of course (when it comes to Israeli government policies), but some of it definitely isn't, and it often veers toward apparent hatred of Jews in general. In addition, there's often obvious sockpuppetry involved, and therefore a reminder not to bite the newbies misses the point.

It gets tiresome having to deal with it, but I don't know what the solution is. SlimVirgin 22:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you accusing these users of anti-semitic editing? If not, I'm not sure why you think this is relevant. Mackan79 22:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to partially agree with Isarig here. Based on the strong phrasing and large number of these messages, they appear to constitute canvassing for support and near-harassment of a particular user. I would strongly advice Abu ali to stop. You don't explicitly tell people what to say, but a message like "Have a look at ... disruptive editing, and stalking-like behavior from Isarig. What do you think?" give the recipient a pretty damn strong hint of the response you want. Daveydweeb (/_review!) 22:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Strong phrasing? Abu Ali wrote "Have a look at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Incivility, disruptive editing, and stalking-like behavior from Isarig. What do you think?" on each page. What else was he supposed to write? If someone has been edit-warring inappropriately, how else do you uncover this other than through the comment of those who were invovled? You can point out that Abu Ali brought this to others' attention, but to act like it was some sort of breach of the peace seems pretty out there. Mackan79 22:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Daveyweeb, Ali's quoting the actual title of the section on this page there, not writing those words himself, so it's a little unfair to say he's leading people on with that comment. I also don't know of any wikipedia policy against letting other users know about WP/ANI reports about users that they have had negative (or positive) interactions with in the past. Finally, Slimvirgin, can you explain what any of this has to do with antisemitism? I found your comment only tangentially related at best to the earlier dispute when you posted it the first time, but I fail to see any connection at all to the dispute here. csloat 23:04, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking around for people who you think have been in conflict with someone you don't like, then canvassing them to go beat up on him on AN/I, is harassment. Jayjg 23:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. That doesn't appear to have occurred here. csloat 23:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to have occured here? What do you call the selective solicitation of 14 different editors who have been in conflict with me, to come and comment on a complaint against me? Isarig 00:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that editors who have been abused by you in the past are perfectly entitled to have their say here. Abu ali 10:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well at least Abu ali admits it. <<-armon->> 10:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but what is Abu Ali admitting here?--G-Dett 14:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Canvassing. <<-armon->> 15:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Csloat, my concern is that there's an increasingly hostile editing environment around articles to do with Jews, Judaism, and Israel. I've been editing for over two years, and while we've always had that problem, it's clearly getting worse, and the lines between legitimate criticism of Israeli government policy and antisemitism are becoming ever more blurred. A good example of that was User:Kiyosaki who turned up a few weeks ago to disrupt Allegations of Israeli apartheid. It was obvious to many of the editors used to editing these pages that Kiyosaki was a bigot, pure and simple, but it wasn't obvious to some of the anti-Israel editors on the page. It took us some weeks to work out whose sockpuppet he was, but he was finally exposed as the account of an old-time, well-known antisemitic editor. During the time he was editing that article, however, he caused a lot of disruption and bad feeling.

That example isn't isolated. We see antisemitic editors all the time trying to take advantage of anti-Israel POV to cause ill feeling and problems for editors they perceive as Jewish. Usually they out themselves over time, because they get more and more extreme, but not always. It's a problem I would hope all editors of goodwill would help to look out for, because it affects both "sides" of the Israel debate equally. It makes editors who tend toward support for Israel feel stressed and under constant attack, and it makes editors more critical of Israel look bad when they find themselves supported by antisemites. It makes Misplaced Pages look bad to have these articles veer back and forth between POVs, with bad-faith sockpuppets gleefully holding sway on talk pages and threatening regular editors with the ArbCom. The same problems crop up, for the same reason, on pages to do with Jews and Judaism. I see it as a problem we should all work on together. SlimVirgin 23:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that antisemitic editors should not be welcomed here, but I just don't see how it's relevant to this particular discussion. I'm not anti-semitic or anti-Israel myself, and I haven't seen any evidence that anyone else in this discussion is. True, Abu Ali's comment comparing Isarig to the Israeli military was over the top, but it wasn't anti-semitic. I think we could all stand to take a deep breath and relax here, and I'm going to volunteer to be the first to do so.csloat 23:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It was Abu Ali who has tried to switch the focus to antisemitism, but it's not only a question of that. It's that there are concerted efforts to make Israel and Jews look bad, for whatever reason. The motive is sometimes antisemitism and sometimes an unexplained obsession with making sure that Israel looks evil. The motivations don't really matter just as the individual accounts don't. What matters is how we deal with it, because Misplaced Pages isn't here to make Israel or Jews look good or bad, and that was the discussion that I was trying to open up. I see the complaint against Isarig as possibly an example of the problem, given Abu Ali's inappropriate comment. SlimVirgin 23:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but it was you who brought up the false accusation of antisemitism. And I note that you have not apologised or retracted your accusation, on the grounds that you are not familiar with my edits. (look here Special:Contributions/Abu_ali) Several edit wars with Isarig and his friends from WP:Israel concern their insistence on inserting libelous accusations of anti-semitism or association with anti-semites to discredit authors who are critical of Israeli government policy. Any accusation of antisemitic behaviour should be thoroughly investigated and dealth with. But accusations of antisemitism (or of any other form of racism) should not be thrown around in a light minded manner. Abu ali 10:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally I have seen a great deal of hostility coming from all sides of these debates. Mackan79 00:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree with csloat, Abu Ali and Mackan79 on these last points. I'd add that if "the lines between legitimate criticism of Israeli government policy and antisemitism are becoming ever more blurred," it is in large part because editors like Slim are tenaciously blurring them. Indeed the whole point of alluding to "an increasingly hostile editing environment around articles to do with Jews, Judaism, and Israel" is precisely to blur those lines. I have been involved in a lot of contentious pages related to Israeli-Palestinian issues, where Isarig and Slim have also been heavily involved, and with the exception of a couple of sideshows produced by cranks like Kiyosaki, I have never seen this "concerted effort by a number of editors to blacken anything to do with Jews, Judaism, or Israel." On the other hand, on any of these pages one can find a concerted effort to blacken anything to do with individuals – Jewish, Arab, or other – who are prominently critical of Israeli occupation policies. Isarig is involved in one such blackening effort right now at the very article that precipitated the present discussion (he's arguing that the article on Juan Cole should include an accusation that Cole's writings "resonate powerfully" with the central argument of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, but should exclude Cole's dismissal of the attack as "outrageous"). Slim has tended to either condone or actively participate in blackening efforts of this kind, often by "blurring" lines as she has done on this page, and creating an incredibly specious spectrum of guilt by association, beginning at one end with anyone who disagrees with her about the root causes of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and extending all the way out to the antisemitic fringe.--G-Dett 15:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the allegations of antisemitism are actually irrelevant and beside the point here. I am an anti-Zionist Jew, and I am being stalked and harassed over the pages of Misplaced Pages by a series of one-off accounts and sockpuppets who do not like my edits to articles on Israel-related subjects. Every day, I have to search to find which articles have been vandalised with derogatory comments about me. Today, it was Gilad Atzmon, Roberto Rosselini, Pig and Camel. Yesterday it was Faisal-Weizmann Agreement, Folke Bernadotte/temp, Israel Shahak, David Raziel, Convoy of 35, Al-Khisas massacre, Roberto Rossellini, Farouk Kaddoumi, Great White Records and Gilad Atzmon. And there have been dozens more. The person responsible (and I'm definitely not pointing the finger at Isarig) is not making antisemitic attacks on me, but is certainly making a concerted effort to make me -- a forthright critic of Israel and Zionism -- look bad. So when SlimVirgin notes "an increasingly hostile editing environment around articles to do with Jews, Judaism, and Israel", she should recognise that it is not only supporters of Israel who face this hostility and abuse. RolandR 00:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry you've had to put up with that. I've blocked the latest account that was attacking you, and you should feel free to let me know if it happens again. You're right that the hostile environment affects everyone. The problem is not only antisemitism. It's also that some editors feel that using Misplaced Pages to paint Israel black is a legitimate way to use the encyclopedia, and of course it isn't. We end up with toxic talk pages, terrible articles, and editors who feel victimized and bullied. It would be good if good-faith editors on all sides could try to come up with a solution together. SlimVirgin 00:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the second part of this entirely; I just wish people could acknowledge the extreme partisanship on all sides of these issues. In my view, there's simply an extreme shortage on the assumption of good faith. People immediately revert edits without making any attempt to follow the guidelines in WP:Revert. If they've seen something generally similar before, they simply assume its included for the same dumb reason. All in all, many seem to have stopped caring, if they ever did, about the spirit of editing on WP. I think this failure to be civil and assume good faith, much more than any latent bigotry of WP editors, is the source of hostility. Mackan79 03:07, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Abu Ali was simply performing a useful service in alerting me and others to this complaint. Isariq has been relentlessly belligerent and the displeasure of his fellow editors should be addressed. The fact that he has offended such a wide swath of the WP community is evidence of the disruption he has caused. There are many other editors who share Isarig's POV and sometimes his stubborn streak, but they don't create nearly the unpleasantness. --Lee Hunter 01:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

This "useful service" has already been described by several editors here as harassment. And here you are applauding it. No more needs to be said about you or your contributions to this debate. Isarig 01:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Lee even if you got the "alert", showing up here to to put the boot in regarding Isarig's belligerence, is a bad look when one could arguably call you even less civil at times and note your own hair-trigger rv button. Isarig has little patience for weak arguments and off-topic soapboxing on talk pages. If his opponents refuse to "stay down" and keep coming back with more of the same, usually peppered with personal attacks, instead of staying on point and forming better arguments, he won't let up and will keep knocking them down. The problem for them is that most of the time he's right. True, perhaps not the paragon of civility, but on the other hand, I've not seen him attempt to suppress anything contrary to his POV so long as it was reliably sourced and written according to policy. This can not be said of the editor who filed this ANI, and the "wide swath of the WP community" you refer to, are for the most part, composed of trolls like User:Will314159 who you didn't see fit to comment on. I don't expect you to like the guy, but I had expected more grudging respect. <<-armon->> 12:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well call me Isarig the Second, because I didn't see that as an example of being uncivil so much as firmly pointing out to Elizmr the absurdity of asking for "respect" for her suggestion that Cole was, as she put it, "internalizing" the themes of the protocols of Zion. I don't mind saying that anyone who proposes such an appalling and incendiary idea will lose my respect immediately. Regarding Will314159, I don't know anything about him and I don't know why you bring him up. --Lee Hunter 15:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Armon, calling most of the people who commented here "trolls" is uncivil at best. Your claim that Isarig has not tried to suppress anything contrary to his POV is incorrect; as you know, you and he are involved in mediation on that very issue on the Juan Cole page. Your claim that I have done so is also totally inaccurate; that has not occurred.csloat 01:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where the podium is but well i can speak throughout the window. It's a pitty that the discussion has taken this way. In brief, i have to say that SlimVirgin's statements are not helpful and harm the community IMO. I read that and feel that there's much bias when you say there exist some antisemitic editors. I feel bad because the scope of the accusation is so large. Please give us names Slim. Abu Ali was clear on his accusation though i don't agree with the brutal ways of Isarig. That accusation was directed to one user who could of course reply or rebute that. Yes, true that Abu Ali started it but let's not forget that it was directed to someone who can easily respond to it and not to a group of phantoms. The problem w/ Slim's accusations is that nobody can reply. It is a kind of unsourced edits in wiki jargon. But i will do reply and say that whether there are an orchestra made of anti-semitic editors and their fans or not over here, remains irrelevant. I will ask about names indeed especially when Slim uses the term obvious.

It should also be noted that i've heard the same accusations re anti-arab and anti-islam editors for more than a dozen of months. Have we reached a solution to catch those anti-x (in case there are) wherever they are here in wikipedia? Unfortunately No! Why? Because established editors and concerned admins think the phenomenon got only one side and is only limited to the side admins think they are victims. That's wrong, anti-x editing is well-spread around wikipedia but i don't believe there's infamous orchestras. There are individuals who carry much POV and fight for that and don't risk banning as account recreation is made easy. So let's stop making vague accusations and be concrete to try to get rid of these problems. At least, let's try it. Cheers -- Szvest - 11:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I've had recent and fairly brusque encounters with Isarig, who, as outlined above is an obsessive, ideological, and pretty rude edit warrior.(on the Oliver Kamm page) However, much like G Dett, I don't think he ever gave worse than he got, but I haven't experienced stalking by him, to my knowledge.Felix-felix 16:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Durova blows the referee whistle

This particular dispute has always been tough to adjudicate. The main participants are well informed and highly articulate, yet some of their methods violate policy in ways I rarely see among editors who know how to spell. The mediation looks like it may indeed succeed at its own narrow aim. Yet the dispute is larger and spreading. I find it oddly appropriate that the Edward Said biography has joined the affected pages: during his years at Columbia University that English department had a reputation as street brawling for Ph.D.s.

In specific reply to csloat, my rebuke spoke to that dichotomy. The debate about libel and slander touched an area I studied in graduate school and your knowledge of that subject does appear to be professorial as does your articulate writing style. Topically these are high level discussions. That contrasts with forum-shopping, personalizing disputes, bad faith assumptions, incivility, edit warring, and deceptive complaints - behaviors more characteristic of a weak undergraduate. My criticism has nothing to do with how you conduct a classroom and everything to do with this website where expert contributors in the humanities are uncommon and too many of the weak undergraduates I normally referee are eager to assume the worst of any authority figure. If the opinion hurts your feelings I am sorry; I know of no milder way to express this earnest evaluation.

This does not, however, vindicate the other parties. Normally I would wait for mediation to work but this particular conflict has seeped onto too many pages and accumulated new disputants as it spreads. The main question I confront now is not whether but how to open an arbitration request: who and what are involved? Durova 06:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you canvassing opinions here? <<-armon->> 10:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

For the record I think both SlimVirgin's veiled insinuation and Abu Ali's outrageous rhetoric are damaging to this whole enterprise. For me, this issue boils down to the speed with which Isarig assumes bad faith, makes and then repeats baseless allegations. From my own experience: A secondary issue is the fact that the Wiki guidelines on reliable sources are frankly open to interpretation, for example, terms like "expert" are weasley worm-can openers and the massive "previously published work" loophole doesn't help the issue. Finally, I, for one, was not "rounded up" by anybody. Cheers! Famousdog 15:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I think arbitration is premature here. Most of the issues being discussed stem from the Juan Cole article, which is in mediation, and good progress is being made there due to the efforts of User:Martinp23. The broader issues brought up by User:SlimVirgin - the hostile editing environment surrounding Israel and Jewish-related articles may warrant a a differnt approach, but agian, I'm not sure Arbitration is the solution there. Isarig 18:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Vishu123 sockpuppetry

(moved from WP:AIV --Deathphoenix ʕ 22:31, 2 January 2007 (UTC))

• Vishu123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This user has admitted to having several blocked accounts (see here) and sockpuppets (User:Itihaas and User:Mrtag. Recommend we block him again and watch for user creations. Dåvid ƒuchs (talk • contribs) 22:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

  I could not see any obvious discruption when looking at WP:AIV. Both IDs were apparently blocked for being sock/meatpuppets of a third account, which the user "knows" but claims not to be. Agathoclea 22:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

  That was exactly my thought. I have asked Dmcdevit to do a CU on the account just in case. Asterion 22:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

  But even if not disruptive it looks like block evation as the account started just recently. Silly, as the block was only for 2 weeks. Agathoclea 22:50, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

  I was the admin who had blocked all the previous accounts. It was confirmed by Dmcdevit through checkuser that the two accounts Sarvabhaum and Mrtag were one and the same. . Mrtag account was being used by Sarvabhaum to disrupt a FAC. I went ahead and indef-blocked Mrtag and only gave a warning to Sarvabhaum. This was followed by the creation of User:Itihaas who continued to disrupt. This account was also indef-blocked by me. I have been busy for the past week and couldn't block User:Vishu123 when it was created. It is clear that this account is also a sock of Sarvabhaum. Note that he also says on his user-page "However I am not related to edits of Sarvabhaum,though we know each other." I find it hard to believe that 2 users from the same IP start editing wikipedia, with the same bias against Karnataka related articles are not the same person. - Aksi_great (talk) 13:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Not unlike Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/case/Sarvagnya where two anti-Hindi users edited from the same IP. Its entirely possible that there are two anti-Kannada people in the same household.Bakaman 01:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

MLK entry has racist language

I am new to Wiki and couldn't figure out how to remove the racist and sexually vulgar language in the Martin Luther King,Jr. entry. When I click on Edit the language in question is not there (only visible in the "real" article).

Can someone please remove these words like nigger and ho, cum etc.?216.138.8.6 02:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It has already been removed. Such things are removed very quickly, but if you view the page at the wrong time you get it. Sorry for the trouble. HighInBC 02:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Offensive world, and racist language was already removed I guess. Daniel5127 <Talk> 04:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I fixed it quickly but only after seeing the notice here, so thank you 216.138.8.6 for bringing it to our attention. Antandrus (talk) 22:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It would really help to have non-vandalized versions revision tagging, huh. Wonder whatever happened to that :-/ --Cyde Weys 04:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Left message on User Talk:216.138.8.6 thanking editor for reporting this. --Shirahadasha 09:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Every single article in Category:Television schedules

Unless there's some specific exemption in U.S. copyright law that applies to these, every single one of these articles is a copyvio. If there is an exemption that applies, what is it -- fair use, Feist vs. Rural, or something else? -- The Anome 19:59, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

What is it a copyvio of? HighInBC 20:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The TV schedules themselves, which could well be considered to be creative works in themselves by the networks involved. For example, consider a mosaic or a collage, which consists of smaller elements assembled into a pattern with overall artistic intent. In this case, the work is the programming in time of a stream of TV programs, with the intent of eliciting a specific audience response. -- The Anome 20:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I see TV schedules in the newspapers, but what source was used to create the table, let's say, from the 1940's and 1950's? User:Zscout370 20:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Old newspapers? -- The Anome 20:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Now, Feist vs. Rural would apply if the schedules were records of mere facts, without any artistic input. However, I'm sure the TV networks would see things differently; in various other countries, copyright is asserted by some broadcasters in their TV schedules. I'm not sure what the rule is in the U.S. -- The Anome 20:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The article on Copyright says:

"Copyright law covers only the particular form or manner in which ideas or information have been manifested, the "form of material expression". It is not designed or intended to cover the actual idea, concepts, facts, styles, or techniques which may be embodied in or represented by the copyright work."

A list is basically a collection of facts, like a telephone catalogue (see Feist Publications v. Rural Telephone Service). A collection of facts cannot be copyrighted (e.g. a list of Presidents of the United States) since it lacks originality. However, whether or not the content is encyclopedic is a separate matter (see Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information). --Oden 20:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It also needs to be verifiable. --Oden 20:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Just my personal, mildly informed opinion: TV schedules don't seem to be the kind of thing that are copyrightable. Additionally, they do seem encyclopedic to me. You can get a great insight into what society was like decades ago by looking at the kind of things they could watch on television in a single night. Beyond knowing merely which shows were popular from a given time period, it's important to know when they were shown and in what order. Also, it's very interesting (at least to me) to see how prime time viewing has shifted over time in content, duration, and time of night. --Cyde Weys 20:17, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of copyright issues, is this really encyclopedic? HighInBC 20:20, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I do believe TV schedules can be encyclopedic. Of course, they have to be discussed and synthesized (not necessarily just presented at face value). But there's definitely interesting and encyclopedic material to be mined from them, and best of all, there are already journal articles that do exactly this, and can be cited. --Cyde Weys 20:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify: I think these are worth including as lists in Misplaced Pages, for the reasons Cyde Weys gives above, and if there are no copyright problems, I'd like to see them kept. The problem is that there is a plausible argument that they might be considered to be copyrighted works. A TV schedule is most certainly a "form or manner in which ideas or information have been manifested". But does it count as an artistic work from the viewpoint of U.S. copyright law? I don't know.

My point is that, unless we have evidence that these schedules are GFDL-compatible, we shouldn't have them in Misplaced Pages, rather than simply assuming that they are OK because no-one knows what their status is. -- The Anome 20:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that while arrangements of information is copyrightable the information itself is not. Is that not how Misplaced Pages works by taking information from copyrighted source, arranging it in a creative original way and citing the source? HighInBC 20:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that, in this case, the schedule itself is the arrangement of information; as you say, arranging the programs in a creative original way. Just listing which programs were in the schedule for that year is like noting the key signature of a piece of music, an uncopyrightable fact. However, if you were to print a factual list of the sequence of notes in a piece of music, that would be copyrightable. The problem is if you were to regard the schedule itself, in its totality, as a creative work, like a DJ set.

As I say, in other countries, TV broadcasters most certainly have asserted copyright in their schedules. The question is whether this is the case in the U.S. There must be a precedent somewhere for this. -- The Anome 20:35, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I think this may be similar with map copyrights, where the same information can be used by 2 different people to achieve identical or similar works, both original. HighInBC 20:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with the above that the schedules themselves probably aren't copyrightable. Once the shows have aired, listing what was on becomes a simple matter of historical fact lacking the apparent creativity necessary for copyright. However, I am also inclined to believe that they aren't particularly encyclopedic. Dragons flight 20:39, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Schedules either are or are not copyrightable in the U.S. If they are, they are still under copyright, and we shouldn't have them. If they aren't we can then argue about whether they should be included. Again, surely there's some case law about this. -- The Anome 20:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I really doubt you will find a legal ruling directly on point, because I would be suprised if anyone has ever been sued for after-the-fact reproduction of TV schedules. Dragons flight 20:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

What about episode summaries? Is it a copyright violation to describe what happened in episode X of television series Y? If so, there's a whole lot of copyvios that need deleting. If not, does that mean it's acceptable to include information about each episode, but not describe when those episodes aired? SuperMachine 20:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

No, that's just facts and ideas, and not copyrightable. -- The Anome 20:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. Events depicted in fiction are considered copyrighted expression, not uncopyrightable fact. Descriptions of the contents of fictional works copy those works, even if it is a written description of an audio-visual work. We can do it here only under fair use. P.S., IAAL, and this is clear from copyright case law. Postdlf 22:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The works themselves might be copyrighted, but a collection of titles (like a List of bestselling novels in the United States or the Academy Award for Best Picture) is probably not a copyrightable collection of facts. According to the article on Feist v. Rural the threshold is very low, but a copyrightable work has to contain some element of creative expression. The information itself, if rearranged, is not copyrightable. --Oden 20:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Television schedules in the U.S. are not copyrightable, and, in fact, are frequently used in television encyclopedias such as Alex McNeil's Total Television and the competing publications. In fact, McNeil has an entire 50 page section dedicated to nothing but television schedules without a single appearance of a copyright notice. This is the first time I'm hearing of this. Firsfron of Ronchester 20:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I have been working on the daytime TV articles, and I do not see how you can copyright a simple listing of facts. They can be verified by looking into old TV Guides or newspaper TV listings. If the form in which the facts are presented can be copyrighted I see no violation by any of the articles in this category. The form is unique to the articles. In my opinion, they should be kept. The programs themselves are creative works that are copyrighted, but I don't see the problem with saying what time they aired. Attmay 20:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Do these articles have a place on Misplaced Pages? Misplaced Pages is not a collection of indiscriminate information. I don't believe that these schedules, in and of themselves are encyclopedic.--Kungfu Adam 21:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

As I said above, the schedules are frequently used in specialised encyclopedias (Television encyclopedias). The argument of NOT can't really be used since other encyclopedias have used the format for decades. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, transformative use may come into play here. If we were to accept there is copyright in the mere arrangement of television schedules, then this could prevent another network using the same schedule (not that it could, because it wouldn't have the rights to the same programs!) : but we aren't running the programs in such a way. Also, these are quite generic listings, just outlining the basic schedule: not the actual week-to-week variations. Morwen - Talk 21:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I've been using 1949-50 United States network television schedule, off an on, to create new articles for early broadcast programs. The information I'm using to create the articles has television schedules in it, and there are no copyright notices there. I don't see how they can be acceptable in newspapers and not here. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

As this isn't anything requiring admin intervention, I recommend the discussion be moved to Category talk:Television schedules. ···日本穣 21:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Television schedules serve a useful research purpose for authors of historical fiction. A writer who sets a childhood tale in the 1950s, for example, would want to know what network Howdy Doody aired on, what day or days of the week it was available, and what hour it was broadcast. This adds to the story's realism and could affect plot elements. Durova 23:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

These are not copyrightable. What's confused some people is that the television schedules were "created" by someone, but just because your decisions can be expressed as written data doesn't mean that you've created copyrightable written expression. The schedule is more akin to a set of instructions, or a recipe: "air program B after program A at these times." This is not eligible for copyright.

There's also the fact that the relevant "work" to be judged would not be a night's schedule as a whole, but instead a single network's schedule. These only include around 3 - 5 elements, a very short "phrase" consisting of a few television series titles as "words" that is simply too insubstantial to qualify for copyright protection. Postdlf 03:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this will help: www.copyright.gov's circular 34 specifically states that "titles of works" are "not subject to copyright"; accordingly the names of the television shows are not copyrightable (they can be trademarks, but that's a different issue.) Furthermore, from the same source, "mere listings of ingredients, as in recipes, labels, or formulas" are not subject to copyright. Since a television schedule is a "listing of ingredients" in a network's daily broadcast, the collection of titles is also not copyrightable. I'm not a lawyer, and of course copyright law is subject to interpretation by the courts, but this seems extremely clear-cut. --Heath 66.32.117.111 03:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

What happens in other countries is also irrelevant, some other countries allow facts to be copyrighted. The US does not. VxP 21:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Latest FA vandalism

Please note {{wikiedit}} which transcludes a user page containing a curious use of {{click}}. This template was just added to John Brooke-Little, the FA for tomorrow. Gimmetrow 21:58, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandal who created it was blocked and the template was deleted. Metros232 22:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Roues de France had done that earlier, creating the wikiedit template with a copy of a blocked vandal template. And the user is one of those whom I mentioned down below who claims that User:Norm is Willy on Wheels and is repeatedly vandalizing his Talk page and demanding it be deleted or his vandalism will continue. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Possoble Vandal

A user at 198.236.64.25 has made several edits that I know to be false.

• Sergeant Metallic to "Metallica"
• clear vandalism of You
• And here, where there seems to be a running theme with different vandals

I have not the time to deal with the amount of edits, nor the expertise in such areas. I don't know what the SOP is in this case, I simply believe it best to bring this to the attention of more people. --DesireCampbell 22:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

After slightly more prodding, it seem this user has done little but vandalization. And he has been warned, repeatedly. --DesireCampbell 22:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Just warn the IP with {{test1-n|whatever}} and just to note the IP has stopped after the final warning. — Arjun 23:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, to report continuous recent vandlaism, please use WP:AIV in the future. ···日本穣 00:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Nasty rascist needs blocking

This nasty rascist, 68.114.28.101, sjhouild, IMO, be blocked, SqueakBox 00:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Claimed to have reformed, but I blocked for 24 hours anyway. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Norm

Some vandal has decided that the departed User Norm (talk · contribs) is Willy on Wheels, and is repeatedly showing up with new accounts to vandalize User talk:Norm to that effect. I have reverted the Talk page to the last version left by Norm, and have protected the page. User:Zoe|(talk) 00:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like something WoW would do to some user for kicks. HighInBC 00:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I have also protected User:Norm because it has been receiving similar attacks. -- tariqabjotu 00:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Check this out. . Most interesting. He registered the account in 2004, and is right NOW using it for WoW vandalism. Antandrus (talk) 04:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I suspect account compromize. It wasn't very long ago blank passwords were allowed by the system. 68.39.174.238 04:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I wondered about that too; it's so out-of-character considering Norm's contributions elsewhere. Anyway I reverted all the damage on Commons. Seems like there aren't many people watching over there. Antandrus (talk) 04:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

That's for sure. I'm amazing some things aren't more disoriented then they are; I've had some nasty runins with that in the past. 68.39.174.238 06:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

User adding my personal name to comments line

Over the past couple months there has been an ongoing issue with the Alpental page history where a particular user began posting my personal name (he did a domain search on my website hyak.net). I would like to know if my name can be removed from the comments section since it was done as a way to try to intimidate me from participating. This user has been banned a few times already for vandalism and uses multiple ID's:

Ullr Siffson or 67.170.33.237

I just want my name removed if possible, that's all. (Sept 29-December 24) THANKS!! Mrhyak 00:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ummm maybe WP:OFFICE... but unless the edits were reverted right away we start to have issues with GFDL. ---J.S 08:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Legal threat

This post seems like a very clear legal threat made by User:209.217.79.235. The IP is consistent with those used by User:Arthur Ellis (see here), who is currently banned by two arbitration rulings Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Rachel_Marsden#Arthur_Ellis_banned_for_one_month and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Warren_Kinsella#Arthur_Ellis. He signs as "Mark", which is Ellis' real-life name (cf. here). Bucketsofg 01:11, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Readers should also be aware that Arthur Ellis was recently editing the Marsden page with the sockpuppet account Stompin' Tom. CJCurrie 03:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry and tag-team edit-warring

User:Siddiqui has persistently gone against consensus in several articles relating to Pakistan, most notably Pakistani nationalism and History of Pakistan, where he has been repeatedly adding unreliable sources (random unverifiable geocities links) and steering the tone in favor of fringe sectarian views. His edit-warring, as evidenced here and , , do not involve discussions or debates but simply persistent reverts over long periods of time. This user has expressed such disruptive behaviour before, advancing narrow, nationalistic and politically inflammatory minority views (see this). Then, when it was clear that reasonable people fixed his edits, he decided to recruit tag-team meatpuppets. He started to post to a certain group of ideologically biased users, such as User:Nadirali, User:szhaider (who considers India a threat to world peace - look at his userpage) and User:Unre4L(who is on a mission to "reclaim Pakistan's stolen heritage") to try to revert-war there, which they did. In addition, he solicited a meatpuppet from off wiki, a user named User:AliHussain. This is evident from the fact that this user, a new user, immediately posted to Siddiqui's page upon logging in for the first time about "seeing what he can do" and proceeded to revert-war again . The users Nadirali and Unre4L were involved in some ridiculous debate over the nonexistent concept of "Ancient Pakistan" (based not on scholarly sources but Pakistani historical revisionism) in Talk:History of India Talk:History of Pakistan and Talk:Panini.They have been resoundedly refuted by several knowledgeable users like User:Dbachmann, User:DaGizza, User:Deeptrivia and User:Fowler&fowler but they continue to prowl the pages. There have been RfC posts by other users concerning their narrow fringe views. in turn they tried to create a bogus article about an underground Islamic Fundamentalist/Pakistani nationalist website started by this group of singleminded editors that which got speedily deleted . This problem is becoming increasingly difficult to contain and these users are rapidly getting disruptive.Bakaman 01:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

More instances of such behaviour:Rumpelstiltskin223 01:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

What an accusation ! The Indian contributors have been tag-teaminig on these Pakistani articles for many months before I got 3RR and the History of Pakistan was "protected" for more than three months. Now that I have some Pakistani contributors involved to represent the Pakistani perspective they have started this accusation. One can simply look at the history of these articles to see tag-teaming by Indian contributors before Pakistani contributors. I have invited many of my friends to wikipedia that does not mean that this "puppetry". One can accuse the Indians of the same regarding these Pakistan related articles.

Siddiqui 02:02, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Zephram Stark sockpuppet

A new sockpuppet of Zephram Stark (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be active. The Mirror of the Sea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). He restored Coving (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) to an old ZS version. Separately, Grace Note is defending his edits with perhaps inappropriate vigor. -Will Beback · † · 02:03, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Do you not think it would be "appropriate" to let me know you've written about me here? I don't have this page on my (very short) watchlist and I only know you wrote here because I suspected you would, rather than just let a minor issue go, seek to extend a conflict as far as possible. Why you think that is a better course than just letting the article stand is a mystery to me. There is nothing inappropriate about my defending the edit. I think it is useful. I don't know what went on with Zephram Stark. I know that editors I trust were opposed to him and I have some idea that he was pushing a POV. I had some idea of an ongoing engagement because he edited pages I have edited or looked at, but I don't usually read these long unfocused narratives that some people on those pages indulge in. I don't really have any awareness of his goodness or badness, or take any sides in the conflict, except, as I noted, that I know he was opposed by editors I trust. That is all.

But the article seems interesting to me. I think it can and should be allowed to live, regardless its provenance. Destroying interesting articles because of who wrote them doesn't seem a good idea. If Will has a problem with the content, he could perhaps focus on that. Otherwise, we seem just to have an extension of personal conflict that doesn't serve the encyclopaedia. As I say, I don't watch this page, and frankly, the days in which I was interested in pointless fighting over issues that neither I nor the other combatants are particularly interested in are long gone, so this is all I have to say about it. Grace Note 02:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The article appears to consist almost entirely of unverifiable original research, which, as I recall, was the original objection to it as well. Has something dramatically changed since it was last re-directed in August? Jayjg 03:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes it has, the practice of coving has been peer reviewed in the New York Times and other notable publications concerning topics such as these, seems its reputation is growing--Edchilvers 03:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough, though, currently only two sentences in the article have citations. Jayjg 03:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but in these two citations you will find most of what has been written in the Wiki article. I just didn't see the point of putting the two exact same citations at various points in the article. The article was probably written by the guy who invented the process to be honest, yet the fact that it may have started out as original research does not deter from the actuality of it having garnered quite a large following since--Edchilvers 04:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Some good references have been added and some OR and unreferenced stuff removed. To Grace Note - nothing wrong with removing unreferenced stuff and OR. --Duk 04:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not Zephram Stark. Thanks. — Mirror of the Sea Something To Say? 05:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, perhaps not, but you certainly are the indefinitely blocked vandal account User:The Iceman Cometh. That's gotta count for something, don't you think? Jayjg 05:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Wot, no block? SlimVirgin 09:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and blocked the The Mirror of the Sea account and marked it as a The Iceman Cometh sock. -Will Beback · † · 23:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring to make a point

Vintagekits (talk · contribs) appears to be removing a lot of info on IRA people in order to make a WP:POINT about his views on the issues being discussed in Misplaced Pages talk:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-12-02 IRA 'Volunteer' usage. He also is removing many warnings on his talk page. --ArmadilloFromHellGateBridge 03:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

: Actually, no I am not, I was making edits in line with what other users had suggested. I then reverted those edits AFTER others had disagreed! With respect to the warnings - they were redundant - firstly, another users had already left a warning on that exact point and secondly the user left the warning after it had already been reverted. Vintagekits 03:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Harassment on the Marc Lemire page

Veritas-Canada (talk · contribs) has recently speculated on my real-life identity (). Unless I'm quite mistaken, this is a clear violation of Misplaced Pages's anti-harassment policies. Some remedial action may be in order.

(Note: Richard Warman has initiated legal action against Lemire under the provisions of the Canadian Human Rights Act. I can only assume this is the "Warman" Veritas is referring to.) CJCurrie 03:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm ... I suppose I should provide evidence that Veritas was referring to me: . CJCurrie 04:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Abusive user: Roadline

The user Roadline has spammed my talk and user page, twice with threatening messages. He is pretending to be an administrator when he clearly is not and has copied the default vandalism warning message from another source within wikipedia. I have attempted to contact the user to ask him to stop, but his response was another threatening message in my talk page. The user has contributed nothing to wikipedia except these threatening messages on my talk and user page as shown by his history and I request some assistance here, please. I was prepared to deal with it after the first attack, but enough is enough, right. Thanks for your time. Chipmaster32 03:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks like both of you are severely out of line, actually. EVula // talk // ☯ // 03:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't exactly understand where I crossed the line, but I respect your opinion. Is there a way that we can be blocked from each other's user pages so as to establish an equitable solution? Chipmaster32 04:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Block yourself by not editing his userpage. Or you could make good use of the things, maybe try having a dialogue about your disagreements. Couldn't hurt.

Anyway, those aren't threats—they're standard-issue talk-page warnings, which every single editor on Misplaced Pages is encouraged to use. Your "asking him to stop," on the other hand, began by calling him a swear word, which is a pretty obvious violation of Misplaced Pages's civility rules. I don't see how there's a justifiable complaint here. --Masamage 04:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I was a little harsh at this user, but I didn't like a user who has never made a contribution before create an account for the purpose of defacing my talk page. I'll stop editing his userpage, but I'd prefer it if I didn't have to continue to wipe my page. It's demeaning and unjustified. I haven't vandalized any such page. Oh, and now that he's added two warnings, I can't even get rid of them anymore.Chipmaster32 04:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's not a big deal. They probably just want their own edits to stay in the article, and are miffed that it's not working out. Assume good faith, keep working to improve the 'pedia, and do not accuse others of "threatening" you unless they actually do so. As to dealing with the messages, just add a note to your own talk page saying that you've reviewed your edits to try and find what he's referring to, but been unsuccessful, and that you intend to keep trying to make useful contributions. Then ignore it and get on with things. --Masamage 04:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll work towards that resolution. I guess I overreacted, and for that I'm am sincerely sorry. Should I remove this notice now? Chipmaster32 04:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Nah, there's no need; it's really not in anyone's way, and it'll be archived in a few days anyway. --Masamage 04:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Blocked User:Fluffbrain

I've indefinitely blocked User:Fluffbrain for sockpuppeting, personal attacks and vandalism. I first noticed User:Fluffbrain after I speedy deleted the article Israeli Art Students controversy on December 13 as a recreation of an AfD'd article about a poorly-sourced minor conspiracy theory: Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Israeli_art_students. User:Fluffbrain almost immediately re-created it as an attack page with the content "Thanks a lot, dumb-ass delete-monkeys. Nicely managed. You may be 12 but you're as mature as a 13 year old. Good job.", for which she was warned by DMacks.

A couple of days later she posted a lengthy sarcastic comment on my Talk: page, to which I responded politely. Four days later she posted a rather rude comment to my Talk page, in which she described me as, among other things, "rude, combative, abrupt".

On the 24th she tried to post a link to a geocities page about the Students conspiracy on the 9/11 conspiracy theories page, which was immediately deleted by User:Rosenkreuz She then added it to another page, one which had also been previously AfDd, then recreated. After quick reversion, she then attempted to add it to another page, where she was reverted again, then tried to add the conspiracy theory to another page which was also pretty quickly reverted.

She then put an insulting comment on Rosenkreuz's User talk: page, which concluded with the sentence Ignorance is bliss for you, I guess, or at least a wet dream. After attempting to add the link to another article, and being reverted again by yet another editor she posted a comment to someone's Talk page calling User:Rosenkreuz "Mr. Know-it-all", and then posted another lengthy attack on Rosenkreuz's User:talk page, which included choice phrases like This overweening weenie-ness of yours is unseemly, as well as wilfully stupid. Practice your multiplication tables, keep up with your super-duper-secret-crypto code-book, work hard, and someday you will grow to be a man. and It pisses me off, though, when know-it-all knuckleheads like you arrogate to themselves the right to decide the difference between heresy and blasphemy. Maybe you should go back to the Jesuits for further training. These were soon followed by another attack comment Your bloated sense of self-importance and propensity for snap judgements about matters on which you are completely ignorant show that even if it's true that you're an adult (unlikely), you have the emotional maturity of a 14-year old. As I said before, I am not an evangelist for this issue, so I will now leave you alone to celebrate your brilliant mind. Hope Mommy and Daddy got you all the toys you wanted today. "Celebrate your brilliant mind" was linked to Wanker#Meaning

She then claimed she was going to "just going to let this topic go", though several days later she did make one least attempt to add the link to another article was soon removed by another editor.

As it turns out, Fluffbrain had, since the end of November, also been creating sockpuppets to edit and edit-war for her on various articles she was interested in. Thus she used Tunguska555 and Fluffbrain to edit Sean Hannity, Tangerine5000 Rosemary999 and Fluffbrain to edit Surfing, and used Tunguska555 and Cheezwhiz to edit-war for Fluffbrain on Sagging (fashion) and Melanie Morgan. She also used Tangerine5000 to accuse Rosenkreuz of being a sockpuppet of User:Morton devonshire , and to insult Morton devonshire by claiming his PhD was fake and that he was a "pot-head" and used Cheezwhiz to vandalize Rozencruez's User: page and to upload vandalized images.

On December 31 she created User:Overdispersion, and promptly inserted the deleted Student conspiracy theory article into two articles she'd previously warred on as Fluffbrain. Perhaps because of the new userid, the edits went unnoticed for several days. She also tried to add back the geocities link to a third article she had been warring on. Rather amusingly, she was actually reverted and warned this time by a bot: . Her work done, she blanked the page and retired the sockpuppet.

Based on her policy-violating sockpuppeting, and rather egregious violations of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, and her vandalism, I've blocked her sockpuppets and her main account indefinitely. Since then she has been busy logging in as the various accounts and blanking the relevant User talk: pages. I invite comment. Jayjg 05:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep up the good work. HighInBC 05:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The indef block looks more than appropriate. Beit Or 05:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Since you have invited comment, Jay, I would like to say that you are an invaluable asset to this project. Having said that, I would also like to hold forth on my favorite subject of this month, namely, do you know how difficult it is to find kosher giraffe meat in New Jersey?? Oh my Lord! I've been looking since Passover - and I haven't found it yet. - crz crztalk 05:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I know! Why don't we just keep it in every temple basement like we do with kosher endangered Siberian Tiger? :) - Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 10:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Looks fine to me. Good work. SlimVirgin 06:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Good call. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:External_links#Personal_attack_or_unwarranted_censorship.3F

I would appreciate other editors and/or admins looking into this thread. The user persists making disruptive edits. Thanks, Crum375 05:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Talk page deletion should be done with care. That one looks dubious unless you substantiate the assertion that this is part of a larger disruptive pattern. Still, the post was uncivil and rambling so I've suggested that the editor who made it reformulate a better version and take up a WP:RFC. Durova 06:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The only disruptive act is Crum375 making a big deal out of an opinon expressed on a talk page. WAS 4.250 07:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There actually was a pattern. This user started by spamming other WP editors, implying they leave WP and come to his web site (e.g. , see his contribs for more). He was rebuked by others for spamming and came over to the EL Talk to complain that he gets rebuked for spamming and promoting his web site while others get a free ride. As can be seen I participated in that thread along with others, tried to explain the issues to him and he initially seemed to agree. Two days later he decided to post a rambling attack on Angela and Jimbo which I thought was over the line and certainly misposted on the EL Talk page, and reverted it, explaining it on his Talk page. He persisted in arguing, which is when I finally left it and posted here. If anyone who follows my posts can point out any mistakes I made in handling the situation I would appreciate it. Thanks, Crum375 12:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Crum continues to think that Centiare.com is "my" website. It's owned by Karl Nagel, and I assure you, I'm not Karl Nagel, I'm not his relative, and I have no business contract with him. --JossBuckle Swami 14:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It is a web site you are clearly promoting by spamming WP editors. I have no way of knowing who you are and what your business relations are. Crum375 15:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

That tirade didn't belong on WP:EL. It's off topic and redundant since he already posted it to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam, where it makes more sense. Removing it was perfectly appropriate since it has nothing to do with EL and just distracts from actually working on that page. --Milo H Minderbinder 16:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

VacuousPoet (talk · contribs) and numerous block-evading sockpuppets

Apropos of Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/VacuousPoet:

This user has aggressively and repeatedly edited under a host of anonymous IPs to evade blocks. At least two IPs and one new user account have been used for this purpose in the last 24 hours: 199.62.0.252 (talk · contribs), 170.215.15.99 (talk · contribs), and PurpleSunfish (talk · contribs). The user shows flagrant and unflagging disregard for policy, most especially WP:DE, WP:POINT, and of course WP:SOCK.

I apologize if this noticeboard is an inappropriate place to post in re this user given that a sockpuppetry case is already open, but I see no possible end to the number of anon IPs and new user accounts I would have to add to that case in the absence of more severe action. N6 08:53, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

User page used first as blog, and now as ascii art spam page

We have some really weird edits on User:TheSkunk's user page. The user initially created the page and used it for non-Misplaced Pages related notes, random movie quotes, etc. and then moved on to posting a blog entry condemning internet advertising (as an IP editor). He was repeatedly informed of the WP:UP policy, but continued to readd the blog rant and be reverted until he finally got sick of it and posted this instead.

After that, the edit history goes rather crazy, with the "contributions" to the page being giant ascii art pictures, insults, and the spamming of various 4chan memes, mostly inserted by TheSkunk's IP but also by other IPs that may be TheSkunk or other vandals. Then User:The Hybrid comes along, and starts messing with the page. As he puts it, "trolling the troll".

Rulebreaks on User:TheSkunk's part include WP:UP violation, WP:POINT and/or WP:NPA violation, and general incivility. The Hybrid also appears to have displayed conduct unbecoming to an editor, but the only "rule" I can think of that he broke is probably WP:DFTT. --tjstrf talk 10:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I was just having a little fun. I have been an unbelieveably serious editor ever since coming to Misplaced Pages, constantly repressing my sense of humor. If I am truly causing trouble I will stop with this whole thing, but I don't see how this is hurting anyone. I have also made a point of removing anything in violation of User Page Guidelines while playing around. Cheers, -- The Hybrid 10:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

AfD spamming by User:Iamunknown

Iamunknown (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) recently nominated 28 articles for deletion but did not provide any rationale. In fact, it's clear that he doesn't even think that the articles in question should be deleted, as he voted "Abstain" in every case! This wastes everyone's time; it's the responsibility of the nominator to indicate why he thinks an article fails to meet Misplaced Pages's standards. I recommend that the discussions be closed immediately without prejudice, and that User:Iamunknown be instructed not to make any further mass XfD nominations unless he is prepared to customize each one with a rationale for deletion.

The list of AfDs is as follows:

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional xenoarchaeologists
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional witches
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional Vice Presidents of the United States
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional vampires
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional United States Presidents
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional United States presidential candidates
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of supervillainesses
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of sidekicks
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of heroic fictional scientists and engineers
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of mad scientists
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional psychiatrists
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional serial killers
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional British Prime Ministers
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional postal employees
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional Australian politicians
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional politicians
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional police detectives
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of police and detective characters portrayed in comedy
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional British monarchs
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional military people
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of horror film killers
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional journalists
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of hookers with hearts of gold
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional hackers
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of coaches in fiction
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional clergy and religious figures
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of fictional butlers
• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of alternate history United States Presidents

—Psychonaut 12:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Did you see on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of alternate history United States Presidents at the very least that all he was doing was completing incomplete afd noms by others? I've done the same thing, though admittedly not on the same scale. Syrthiss 12:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I did. However, the AfDs are still incomplete without a proper rationale. Either the original nominator should have provided a rationale, or the incomplete nomination should have been deleted. Incomplete nominations should not be posted to the main AfD page. —Psychonaut 12:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking at Iamunknown's talk page and some of the other afds in this list, it was originally part of an omnibus nomination list of fictional actors...and the original nominator either didn't link them all correctly to the one discussion or Iamunknown didn't notice. Its clear from his talk page discussion with the original nominator that he realizes he flubbed. Satisfied? Syrthiss 13:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Its still obvious that they should have been listed for speedy deletion (the AfDs, not the articles :P), rather than put up for WP:AFD and help clog up the process. I suggest speedy-close all the ones nominated without a rationale. ::shrug:: — Nearly Headless Nick 13:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm satisfied that User:Iamunknown was acting in good faith. He tried to fix someone else's mistake, but unfortunately compounded that mistake in the process. The situation still needs to be resolved by closing the broken AfDs and communicating to all involved parties that what they did was in error. —Psychonaut 13:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Such bureaucracy is not necessary. All AFD debates you mention now contain a clear reason by Otto, and can proceed normally. A perceived procedural error made in posting anything, such as an idea or nomination, is not grounds for invalidating that post. >Radiant< 16:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Problems with anonymous editor on List of anime conventions, Anime South, and Tsubasacon

I would like to request administrator review over a situation I am having with an anonymous editor on three articles. The problems first occurring on Christmas weekend when the anonymous editor inserted a wikilink to Anime South onto List of anime conventions. I removed the link because it didn't meat the criteria listed at the top of the talk and summarized in the lead of the article. The anonymous editor kept inserting the link back in and made several excuses on the talk page as to why this convention should receive an exception before finally saying that the criteria is irrelevant.

During the same time, I also tagged several anime convention articles with the {{unreferenced}} or similar tags, one of which was on Anime South. Later the anonymous editor changed the wording in a sentence that made it clearly speculative, which I then removed. After that, the anonymous editor restored the speculative statement and removed the referenced tag, which I reverted.

The anonymous editor has also gone to Tsubasacon and put up an {{unreferenced}} tag, which I requested another editor familiar with anime conventions to review. so that I can avoid a WP:COI. After his removed the tag and added some sources, the anonymous editor removed the sources and restored the unreferenced tag.

This has came to the point were I think the anonymous editor is now being disruptive. I originally thought s/he was an Anime South staffer until after I found this topic on the Anime South forums yesterday. --TheFarix (Talk) 13:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible ID of anonymous editor

It has came to my attention that the anonymous editor may be Marcyu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), who may also use a second account Animesouth (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). known IPs used by the anonymous editor: 68.1.77.61, 68.1.73.33, 68.63.22.57, 68.1.74.54, 68.1.78.129. --Farix (Talk) 23:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Annoying Socks

There are a large number of suspicious SPA's over at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Yamla/Awards which is pretty problematic as it is. One, at least has blanked the userpage of a banned sockpuppet of User:Prin. I would appreciate if someone would look into this. Eluchil404 13:59, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Apparent inappropriate disruption in reply to a CheckUser request

About to sleep, have been looking at this but can't follow up. User looks like he's disrupting WP:RFCU (Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Art Dominique) and User talk:Husond, in response to that RFCU linked. Would appreciate if an admin investigated/kept an eye on it. Thanks. – Chacor 17:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahem.

User:Geo.plrd/Phoenix. Someone mind explaining to me again why keeping the history would deter new Esperanzas and show other users what a horrible mistake it was? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems a bit POINTish to me. – Chacor 17:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There's also User:Feureau/UserBox/EsperanzaReturns. Borderline T1? >Radiant< 17:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

So much for my canned smart-ass remark about needing a userbox...Mackensen (talk) 17:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I've checked Geo.plrd's contribs, he's mass spamming every member of Esperanza he can find. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:18, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

A block for gaming the system might be in order? – Chacor 17:19, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I would support this. WP:POINT violation + an attempt to skirt abundantly clear community consensus. —bbatsell ¿? 17:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Can someone block/add stiff warning to everyone who signed up and edited it? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 17:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I've just left a note re this issue at their talkpage. Let's wait and see. -- Szvest - 17:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree on giving a cooldown block to Geo.plrd for this double-whammy violation. --Deathphoenix ʕ 17:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree about an immediate block. He's just received the first/final warning re that. They are offline now. Once they are back we'll see what their reaction would be. -- Szvest - 17:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

He made a comment after your warning that seemed to indicate that he was going to continue the "Phoenix" project anyway, but that doesn't matter. The best indicator will be what he does after his recreations are deleted. --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I posted the warning at 17:25, January 4, 2007 while their last edit was at 06:02, January 4, 2007. Nothing to lose if we wait anyway. Yes, knowing about their reaction to the deleted subpage would be interesting. -- Szvest - 18:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, duh. I read "06:02" as "6:02pm". --Deathphoenix ʕ 18:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Any reason why I shouldn't just nominate this at mfd? --Spartaz 17:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It's already there: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Geo.plrd/Phoenix. —bbatsell ¿? 17:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd contend it's speediable. Not explicitly in WP:CSD, but quite obviously a flagrant breach of consensus reached at the Esperanza MFD, which is what a new MFD would turn into. – Chacor 17:47, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Dang! --Spartaz 17:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

(edit conlict x 4) (now slightly out of date) It is a concerning violation of WP:POINT, going directly against the opinions and consensus generated at the MfD of Esperanza. Are the project pages there deletable/redirectable to Misplaced Pages:Esperanza, rather than hashing out an Esperanza Mk II MfD? I don't feel that a block is appropriate unless Geo goes against the warning posted. Martinp23 17:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I just speedied the userpages per CSD G4. I don't think that a block is in order unless the user persists. The userbox is more problematic; I'll let some other cold-hearted bitch admin take care of that. -- Merope 18:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh. Should have guessed that JzG would be the "cold-hearted" admin I referenced. -- Merope 18:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Though "not the way to do it" is not the most informative deletion summary ever. I'd have expected some link or reference to the Esperanza MfD, and/or a CSD criteria. Carcharoth 18:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The user can hardly be ignorant of it, but in any case I left a lengthy comment on his Talk - much more than would fit in a delet summary. Guy (Help!) 22:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. On a side issue, I was actually, out of curiosity, trying to figure out the timeline for when they created the userbox and Phoenix respectively, but as they were deleted, that is more difficult to figure out now. Could you, or someone, note the date and time of creation of the pages in question? A day later, a few hours later, or whatever. Thanks. Carcharoth 00:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Phoenix created 05:13, January 3, 2007, userbox created 06:43, January 4, 2007. —bbatsell ¿? 00:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Delinquent Road Hazards

This AfD was closed as a Delete by Khukri but the article was never deleted. It was subsequently tagged speedy by Pd THOR because it was not deleted. I'm not familiar with Khukri so I don't know if they are an admin who closed the AfD and just didn't delete before logging off or if they are a non-admin who just closed the AfD, but could someone have a look?--Isotope23 18:06, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Khukri does not appear in the Misplaced Pages:List_of_administrators, but AnonEMouse has taken care of the deletion. —bbatsell ¿? 18:17, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

... Some people type faster than others. I was just coming to say that. Will make a pointed comment on User_talk:Khukri. AnonEMouse 18:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

(EC)Actually, Khukri also closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Carraigin Castle as a Delete but didn't delete it because he apparently isn't an admin. I don't know the protocol on closing AfD's when you are not an admin, but isn't it a rather bad idea to close something as a delete if you can't actually delete it? Someone might want to say something to him.--Isotope23 18:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Majorly said something to him about that one, after I did about the first one. It looks like Khukri had also closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Snaps (game) (2nd nomination) as delete, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Christian extremism as delete (Majorly cleaned up those as well), but then Khukri had also Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Princess Sumaya Bint Al-Hassan as keep (missing that the last person showed the most recent revision was a copyvio!), and did something highly confusing at Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 December 27#Template:WindowHome. Curiouser and curiouser, as said Alice. Needs a bit further investigation. AnonEMouse 18:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, after further investigation, I'm willing to believe he worked in good faith; he hadn't done it before Jan4, and got in over his head. AnonEMouse 19:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Right... I wasn't suggesting bad faith here; I think he honestly is trying to help out on AfD, but in so doing is making alot more work for any admins who try to sort these out. Your message on his talk page looked like the right call to me.--Isotope23 19:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

report of vandalism

To the sysop,

This is to report blatant vandalism earlier today by User:69.251.34.221 on the Towson High School Misplaced Pages entry.

Please accept my apologies if this is not the proper procedure for reporting vandalism, but I have waded thru several pages of Misplaced Pages without success trying to find out how one simply reports such incidences.

Please take it from here.

Thx, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JGHowes (talk • contribs) 18:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

• This is the wrong place... in the future please report this type of problem to WP:AIV.--Isotope23 18:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Already dealt w/ on the spot by our best vandal fighter who never sleeps. Thanks for the note anyway. -- Szvest - 18:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

JGHowes replies to Isotope23-- Unfortunately, that is easier said than done using a BlackBerry: there's no "+" to make a new entry at WP:AIV, i.e., report vandalism.

Block for review

I blocked SlamDiego (talk · contribs · logs · block user · block log) for 24h for disruption. There's a thread at the bottom of my Talk in which he makes it pretty plain that he's unrepentant over characterising as libel (WP:NLT) a legitimate if strongly worded criticism from Jimfbleak, thread at WP:PAIN. Neither side is being a model Wikicitizen, but Jimfbleak is not bitching about it and SlamDiego is. Guy (Help!) 18:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I support the block, although I'm not exactly uninvolved. I had an encounter with SlamDiego here yesterday. He is pretty combative. -- Donald Albury 19:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Pointy stick needed

Would somebody please have a gentle word with User:Barberio about the advisability of slapping standard warning templates on admins' talk pages in the middle of threads where they are dealing with other users. It's not a particularly helpful thing to do and stinks of WP:POINT given that he is in dispute with me at Misplaced Pages talk:External links/YouTube and elsewhere. Guy (Help!) 18:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Aye, aye. I'm on it. -- Merope 18:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)#

Copy paste of PAIN report placed. Please make note of the last point. --Barberio 18:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Recent activity:

• Tells others to "F*** off" (without the stars).
• Accuses others of "b**tching".
• Removes npa warning templates from his user page.
• Blocks user who complains about it!

This user seems to have problems not resorting to inappropriate behaviour in his disputes with other editors. --Barberio 18:43, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yawn. Please read WP:DICK in detail, this is becoming wearisome. While I do not condone telling people to fuck off, your npa3 warning was just ridiculous. That editor had made a clear legal threat and deserved his block and nothing Guy said to him was offensive. Moreschi 18:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and being wilfully offended is just as bad as bad as being wilfully offensive, and probably causes more problems. Moreschi 18:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect WP:DICK is not policy, WP:NPA is. --Barberio 18:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

May I point you to WP:DUCK? ---J.S 18:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and removing a warning from your talk page is not a violation of any policy. ---J.S 18:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the legal threat that the user SlamDiego was blocked for. HighInBC 18:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There was none. He said he 'felt liablled' by another users comments, which is not the same as actualy threatening a libel suit. (For what it's worth, SlamDiego's original complaint that JzG was replying to on WP:PAIN was overblown, but did not deserve the response given.) --Barberio 19:02, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Calling something "Libel, although I won't take action" seems to me to be skirting the edge of No Legal Threats. Kinda like "If I wasn't such a nice guy, I'd sue you. You don't want me to be a nice guy?"-ish —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SirFozzie (talk • contribs) 19:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Even so, it would have been better to point that out, rather than threaten with a block for something borderline in a dispute that could be settled by getting people to calm down. --Barberio 19:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The PAIN report is here for those trying to follow along. ---J.S

To Barberio: my response to him was to thank him kindly for self-reporting his legal threat and express the hope that this indicated he would not repeat the offence. I thought that was a long way from harsh. It's only when he demonstrated that he both understood the message and didn't ave any intention whatsoever of heeding it that I got firm. It is much easier to deal with disputes if you don't have random people pitching into the middle of them, of course, especially when those people appear to be looking for excuses to oppose you rather than taking a dispassionate view of the case at issue. Guy (Help!) 19:14, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The issue could have been resolved by simply stating the issue was not a grave attack, nor libel, and should be resolved just by a asking for moderated language. I attempted to do so.

Your threat of a block against the complaining editor was clearly escalating the issue, and your following this up with personal attacks of your own by telling the editor he was "b****ing* over it was further escalation, moving on to directly block the editor is an action I simply don't understand. --Barberio 19:22, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• HighInBC, SlamDiego characterised comments made against him by another editor as being "libel" while at the same time making equally aggressive and hostile comments about that user. I was in discussion with him about this and he made it perfectly clear that in his mind only attacks against him are libel. Full-on legal threats are grounds for immediate banning, in this case he was merely being aggressive and deeply uncool so I gave him a short block to calm down, with a comment to that effect on his Talk. Unfortunately Barberio chose to wade in and add further heat, for reasons known only to himself. I can't see any evidence that WP:PAIN was on his watchlist for any reason, although of course it could have been. Guy (Help!) 19:09, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It has in fact been on my watch list for quite some time, due to reporting some personal attacks. --Barberio 19:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, so you did. Guy (Help!) 19:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I have commented out a slapfest above. I suggest we talk about the underlying problem of templating experienced users. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The comments by editors have been restored. --Barberio 20:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Users reading this may wish to review my new essay (in progress, other editors welcome, and if you can think of a catchy name please move it, but Misplaced Pages:Don't template the regulars, because templating the regulars is a mistake. Hipocrite - «Talk» 19:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Great. Now all we need is WP:NOJERRYSPRINGER MartinDK 19:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather not have left templates, but at the time of the incident, that's what WP:PAIN required. I agree that the requirement to add specific templates to the talk page, rather than being able to phrase a more suitable warning, was probably a bad part of the process. --Barberio 19:33, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I like - to both :o) Incidentally, Barberio, you seem to be confusing WP:PAIN with WP:POINT in your above comment. Guy (Help!) 19:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

• Having mulled this over on the way home and also prompted by Hipocrite, I have unblocked SlamDiego. He was being a dick, but probably not to the extent that he needed stopping right now, which is what blocking is for. However, I have also told him that describing other users' comments in a content dispute as libel, however heated things might have become, is extremely unlikely to help. Guy (Help!) 21:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

How is calling another user a 'dick' more helpful than describing another users' comments as libel? KazakhPol 22:32, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Calling someone a wp:dick isn't the same as making a statement which could be construed as a wp:legal threat. Argyriou (talk) 23:49, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

And after being pointed that way, some people realise they've been stupid. Guy (Help!) 01:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I must say that, having looked at WP:PAIN, I agree with Moreschi's comments above. there are some genuine cases, but most of the complaints boil down to little more than "Mummy, he called me silly...", and are usually made by people who are engaged in an editing dispute and are trying to use this as back route to getting their own way. Admins should surely be trying to douse these flames, but too many seem happy to pour petrol on them. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Lol, Martin, that's precious enough that I've created a redirect: WP:JERRYSPRINGER. Patstuart 23:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hundreds of links... to a good site

Is plbman (talk · contribs) spamming? He's added almost a hundred links to the same site... but it's a pretty neat site. Is this a violation? A helpful addition? Something nefarious that I'm not quite smart enough to work out? I could use a little advice. -FisherQueen (Talk) 19:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not he's affiliated with the site, adding this many external links is unquestionably fishy, and constitutes spam. -Patstuart 19:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

User talk:Buttboy666

This user, who was indef banned for possible sockpuppetry (and subsequently rejected for his username), is now using his talk page as a soap box, and appears to be doing so more for the WP:DENY effect than anything. I've already said it would come to this; would someone mind locking his talk page? Patstuart 19:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Done. User talk page disruption really grates my cheese. -- Merope 20:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Blocked 209.19.59.110

I have blocked 209.19.59.110 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for 24 hours for disruption by attempting to impersonate Ted Kennedy in this edit. This anon has been trying to list Kennedy as a 'famous person who has not been convicted of vehicular homicide' in Vehicular homicide for a while now. -- Donald Albury 19:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Given this, obvious enough for WP:AIV. Patstuart 20:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

63.175.153.226 (talk · contribs)

Keeps vandalizing Chesapeake Bay, short block would be helpful. - - 'twsx'talk'cont' 20:04, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean when you say you don't qualify for AIV; anyone can post to AIV as long as the steps at the top of the page have been followed. If they haven't been followed, then the vandal shouldn't be blocked. That's true no matter where you post about it. Moreschi has given the user a {{test3}} and they appear to have stopped, so if they start up again, give them a {{test4}}; if they continue after that, follow the instructions on WP:AIV to list them and it will be taken care of. Thanks! —bbatsell ¿? 20:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

IP civility case

199.80.117.24 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) was blocked last week for his repeated incivil comments, and his block has expired and he has started his incivility right up again. I was redirected here from posting twice on AIV that he was violating WP:CIVIL and I archived several of the conversations at the talk page that he has been commenting on. Additonally, comments like these (referring to Myzou and Ryulong), changing a month old comment, and assuming bad faith.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

User:JohnJohnJohnJohn

This is a repost from 2 days ago, with addendum. The previous post didn't really receive any attention.

Fraslet (talk · contribs) recently brought my attention to the fact that JohnJohnJohnJohn (talk · contribs), whose editing has certainly raised a few eyebrows, was possibly operating Orchardbank (talk · contribs) and Johnowenlangham (talk · contribs) as sockpuppets. John has now asserted that Orchardbank is in fact Malcolm Nicol, a Conservative Party councillor from Polmont, a town in Scotland which John comes from and has repeatedly made disruptive and bizarre edits in connection with. John also claims that, were that the case, Image:MalcolmNicol.jpg could be legimately licensed as GFDL-self by Orchardbank. Orchardbank has also made edits about Mr. Nicol, including this rather aggrandizing effort: . I don't know if this is ready for a WP:RFCU, but I think it has become important to establish exactly what the real situation is here.

Since then Patstuart (talk · contribs) has placed a suspected impersonator / sock tag of no less than Willy on Wheels on John's userpage - I find it unlikely that John has even heard of WoW but stranger things have happened - and Mikkalai (talk · contribs) reverted this edit by Johnowenlangham to Orchardbank's talk. What is the story here? Deizio talk 23:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

JzG's personal attack

Revision as of 15:54, January 4, 2007 (edit) JzG (Talk | contribs) (→Deep breaths :) - Um, right.) ← Older edit Revision as of 19:20, January 4, 2007 (edit) (undo) JzG (Talk | contribs) (→Deep breaths :) - update) Newer edit → Line 26: Line 26:

--> Also, you are not hated; everyone is welcome on Misplaced Pages, and so long as you go about it civilly, we can have these users answer for their actions. Anthonycfc 13:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)  :--> Also, you are not hated; everyone is welcome on Misplaced Pages, and so long as you go about it civilly, we can have these users answer for their actions. Anthonycfc 13:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

- * Your hysterical outpourings on WP:PAIN are likely to achieve very little other than to ensure that you are dismissed as a crank. Would you like to go back and try again, citing diffs and without the capitalisation? Guy (Help!) 15:54, 4 January 2007 (UTC) + * I removed your reports from WP:PAIN since there is no evidence of attacks provided. In future please bear in mind that we need, at the very least, information as to where the supposed attacks occurred. I did spend some time looking into it but the only aggression I could find was from you. Guy (Help!) 19:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yrgh (talk • contribs).

...Are you asking a question, or what? --Masamage 00:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that Yrgh believes that JzG's comments above are a personal attack and he wants to rant about it! Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Uh yeah. The top of this page says "This is not the Misplaced Pages complaints department" for a reason. Apparently you know about WP:PAIN to report personal attacks, you can take this there but if all he did was call you a crank, I seriously doubt any uninvolved admins will care enough to block him or whatever. --W.marsh 00:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

For the record, this user has made a habit out of accusing... everyone... of personally attacking him (and in a rather disruptive way at that) after he was confronted by multiple editors about a series of dubious edits. He has previously been mentioned on AN/I here. —bbatsell ¿? 00:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

And why wasn't anything done about it then? D: And at what point is the community's patience exhausted with Mr. Yrgh?—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:22, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

This is also wonderful.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I was just marvelling at that myself. --Masamage 00:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Blocked indef per that latest ... marvel. Can't say I've ever seen anything quite like that. --Cyde Weys 00:49, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

• Strong, 100% speedy endorse blocking this worthless twat. I wasted Actual Time checking out his baseless report. Guy (Help!) 01:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Countdown timer

Is there any way someone could glance at Countdown timer? It sure reads like advertising to me, but the creator keeps removing speedy delete tags on it. I'm perfectly willing to be wrong, but think it needs someone else's eyes on it at this point. 00:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to User:Gwernol for the help! Philippe Beaudette 00:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Tarinth

Tarinth (talk · contribs)'s contributions are almost totally !votes on AfDs. And the !votes I have read (about ten in the past ten minutes) are practically nothing but bizarre. Before I start throwing templates or criticisms at him/her, am I totally off base here? User:Zoe|(talk) 00:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, a polite note that one's AFD contributions are likely to be taken more seriously if it's not one's only contributions to the project? Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 00:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Main page is hacked

Telletubbies. HighInBC 00:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Now it is really nasty.HighInBC 00:45, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

What on Earth are you talking about? Diff links please? --Cyde Weys 00:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

It looks fine to me. Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 00:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Template:POTD image/2007-01-05 was briefly vandalized. FOUR main page templates were left unprotected for 45 minutes. Congratulations to the sysop who caused this mess. --- RockMFR 00:56, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The sysop didnt protect it so the vandal could put the pictures. duh 121.6.103.249 01:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ugh... please stop. People make mistakes; we don't need the sardonic remarks. -- tariqabjotu 01:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Fixed and blocked. This was the edit: . He later changed the image: . Go !vote for ProtectionBot. Also, if you're a Commons admin, go delete this (WARNING, GRAPHIC). I'll open a CU request asking for the entire ISP to be blocked. --Slowking Man 00:58, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The POTD templates for tomorrow will probably be forgotten again as there doesn't seem to be anyone monitoring them. --- RockMFR 01:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

User:Spacetimefilms

Spacetimefilms (talk · contribs) added a couple of articles on films. You'll never guess the name of the production company... Guy (Help!) 01:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

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