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Japanese-American Experience vs Bereza Kartuska

"Polish-British historian Tadeusz Piotrowski who also calls it a concentration camp notes that the establishment of the facility was a norm of its times, similar to camps established by Americans for Japanese during WWII, by Canadians for Ukrainians during WW2..."

Oh FFS. "similar"? You mean in that it was situated roughly under the sun during hours of daylight? This is fucking nonsense and there's absolutely no need for inclusion for this in an article. Piotrowski is a serious historian whose polish nationalism occasionally causes him to write abject stupidity, and this is quote, if true and faithful to his intended meaning, would be example number 1. serious historian or not, this quote is so far outside of the mainstream that it should be put into a "revisionist views" section. Hell, I'm going to do this right now, since such a statement has about as much propriety as holocaust deniers' do.

What is a concentration camp?

There are a lot of misunderstandings, so I will quote the definition used in scholarly sources:

What is a concentration camp? A working definition is that it is an isolated, circumscribed site with fixed structures designed to incarcerate civilians. A concentration camp is not normally a death camp, although death camps in the context of the Holocaust obviously derived from concentration camps and the killing of asylum patients (the so-called ‘Euthanasia programme’) in terms of their institutional history. No one was ‘concentrated’ in the Nazi death camps of Chełmno (which was actually not really a ‘camp’ in any meaningful sense), Sobibór, Bełżec, or Treblinka, where Jews (and a small number of Roma and Sinti) were sent to die....
these very large numbers of people are ‘irreconcilable opponents’ insofar as the regime in power perceives them to be, they are not necessarily people who have committed a crime. Indeed, they are highly unlikely to be criminals in any proper legal sense, although there are usually real criminals in concentration camps to give some appearance of truth to the regime’s claims and—in the case of Nazi Germany at least—to aid the regime’s goal of ‘social cleansing’. They are ‘enemies’ only because the regime has defined them as such, due to some characteristic—appearance, ‘race’, class, political identification, religion—that the regime perceives as intolerable or threatening. They are also, most important, usually civilians (one should note that sometimes POWs or resistance fighters have also been held in concentration camps). These civilians are not armed opponents of a regime—rebels, terrorists, or insurrectionists—who have been incarcerated and are treated according to the laws of warfare. Quite to the contrary, and here is the crucial point that Gordon Walker hints at but does not explicitly set out: the inmates of concentration camps (I will try to avoid the word ‘prisoners’ because this connotes legal incarceration following a trial for a criminal activity) are outside the law... But as this book will explore, a concentration camp need not look like a Nazi camp in order to qualify as such. In the far north or far east of the Soviet Union, for example, there was no need for barbed wire fences—if an inmate ‘escaped’, there was nowhere to go.

— Dan Stone (historian), Concentration Camps: A Short History, OUP

According to this definition, and the agreement of notable scholars already quoted in this article, this site is a concentration camp, even if the Polish government does not like this label. (t · c) buidhe 11:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Applying this definition yourself however is WP:OR. We already have a discussion of the issue within the article. Volunteer Marek 15:52, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

It is not WP:OR. The article itself notes that several noteworthy historians call it a "concentration camp" while the term "detention camp" is not cited to anyone in particular (perhaps that label is made up by wikieditors). The definition above is provided to avoid confusion about the definition. It is worth noting that some scholars consider immigration detention in the United States to be "concentration camps". (t · c) buidhe 18:46, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I referenced it. This matter has been discussed so many times. No OR please. - GizzyCatBella🍁 19:18, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Also, translate the official description of that time from Polish - "Miejsce odosobnienia" = "Place of Isolation" - Not - "Concentration camp" = "Obóz Koncentracyjny” - Bereza Kartuska was a prison.GizzyCatBella🍁 19:27, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

We do not borrow the (WP:OFFICIALNAME) names given to something by a government entity. We use those which are found in reliable, independent sources. From the scholarly perspective, it seems that "prison camp" is a subset of "concentration camp", see Stone. And more sources use the label "concentration camp". (Google Scholar result for Bereza Kartuska "concentration camp", "prison camp")

Seriously? That's pure straw man argument. Nobody is calling it a "Bereza Kartuska prison camp", there is no such thing as a prison camp, so of course that result will be "bad". So while "Bereza Kartuska" "prison camp" yields 13 results compared to a 118 for "Bereza Kartuska" "concentration camp", a search for "Bereza Kartuska" prison trumps it with 235 results. Further, let's check "Bereza Kartuska concentration camp" - measily 6 results, compared to "Bereza Kartuska prison", 22 results. So, COMMONAME in English? Sure. And it is prison. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:37, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Piotrus, If you look in the history you will see that GCB added language calling it a "prison camp". Also, just because something is indexed in Google Scholar does not make it reliable. looking at the results of your search one sees many obscure publications whose reliability is doubtful, not the sort of mainstream, peer-reviewed academic journals. Your search also deliberately excludes the many results which refer to "concentration camp at Bereza Kartuska" or similar phrasings. (t · c) buidhe 18:35, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

"at BK" doesn't change the fact I noted above which is that a search for a search for "Bereza Kartuska" prison gives 235 results and "Bereza Kartuska" "concentration camp" 118. There is no way you can spin it into arguing the other name is more common, picking at a few low quality results won't help given the numbers here. Not unless you feel like discrediting about a hundred of them. Oh, and here's the relevant Google Books search: "Bereza Kartuska" prison vs "Bereza Kartuska" "concentration camp" with 4,010 results to 1,890 results. 2:1 again. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:06, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Here are just a few sources which call it a concentration camp, in addition to those already cited in the article. Notably, the USHMM also calls it a "concentration camp" (t · c) buidhe 19:57, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

References

1. Keller, Lech (2002). "Non-Science Fiction Prose of Stanislaw Lem". The Soviet and Post-Soviet Review. 29 (3): 241–256. doi:10.1163/187633202X00035.
2. Marples, David R. (2010). "Anti-Soviet Partisans and Ukrainian Memory". East European Politics and Societies: and Cultures. 24 (1): 26–43. doi:10.1177/0888325409354908.
3. Copsey, Nathaniel (2008). "Remembrance of Things Past: the Lingering Impact of History on Contemporary Polish–Ukrainian Relations". Europe-Asia Studies. 60 (4): 531–560. doi:10.1080/09668130801999847.
4. Misiuk, Andrzej (2007). "Police and Policing Under the Second Polish Republic, 1918–39". Policing Interwar Europe: Continuity, Change and Crisis, 1918–40. Palgrave Macmillan UK. pp. 159–171. ISBN 978-0-230-59986-4.
5. Magierowski, Mateusz (2016). "(A)symmetry of (Non-)memory: The Missed Opportunity to Work Through the Traumatic Memory of the Polish–Ukrainian Ethnic Conflict in Pawłokoma". East European Politics and Societies. 30 (4): 766–784. doi:10.1177/0888325416651328.
6. Marples, David R. (1999). Belarus: A Denationalized Nation. Taylor & Francis. p. 7. ISBN 978-90-5702-343-9.
7. Reilly, Diana Howansky (2013). Scattered: The Forced Relocation of Poland’s Ukrainians After World War II. University of Wisconsin Press. p. ix. ISBN 978-0-299-29343-7.
8. Melzer, Emanuel (1997). No Way Out: The Politics of Polish Jewry 1935-1939. Monographs of the Hebrew Union College. p. 7. ISBN 978-0-87820-141-9.
9. Stryjek, Tomasz (2018). "The Hypertrophy of Polish Remembrance Policy after 2015: Trends and Outcomes". Zoon Politikon. 1 (9): 43–66. ISSN 2082-7806. Such threats also concern researchers who use the term "concentration camp" in relation to crimes committed by Polish state officials, consisting in creating conditions resulting in death from illness, starvation and exhaustion of political prisoners. It applies to camps in: Bereza Kartuska (1934-1 939), officially a "place of deten- tion", Ś wi ę toch ł owice-Zgoda (in 1945, deta ining mainly Germans and Silesians) and Jaworzno (1945-1949, from 1947 used for Ukrainians and Lemkos deported under the "Vistula" action), called "labour camps" ( Ł uszczyna 2017).

Nah, USHMM just uses this term alongside with prison: . Ex. " there was a famous prison in Poland called Bereza Kartuska".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:39, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

No, actually the only result which directly refers to it as a "prison" is a direct quote from an interview. The topic is indexed under "Bereza Kartuska (Concentration camp)" in Keywords & Subjects. (t · c) buidhe 18:37, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Huh. Well, it's a good reminder USHMM can be biased / make errors too particularly when they move away from their core competentce (Holocaust studies). Not everything fits in the seme cookie-cutter model. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:08, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Why are you so convinced that this isn't a concentration camp? Doesn't it meet the definition used in scholarship? Are Timothy Snyder, Tadeusz Piotrowski, and other experts all wrong? (t · c) buidhe 01:22, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Buidhe, I am not disputing that many reliable scholars call it a concentration camp, and I support mentioning this name in the lead. But my literature review suggests that calling it prison is more common, and there are also some other terms like internment camp or just camp. Prison seems the most obvious name for it, particularly since it is more neutral than the controversial term cc. Also, WP:DFTT - if a likely sock an indef banned user wants to POV push things here and draw his favorite parallels along the lines of "Poles were no different and maybe even worse than Nazis", we should not encourage it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:32, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Piotrus, IDK what this editor is doing, but the comparison to Nazi concentration camps is not an inapt one. If you are doing an apples-to-apples comparison, aka with the prewar Nazi concentration camps (especially pre-1938 when almost all prisoners were politicals), the conditions were probably comparable. To be fair, the Nazis did imprison more people. (t · c) buidhe 03:15, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Buidhe I agree and I think what we are seeing is a problem with the term cc being known mostly for the WWII era, whereas at other times and places it was less drastic. Not sure to what degree this needs to be clarified here, but in general, comparing anything to a concentration camp in lead, IMHO, for most people gives the impression that 'oh, so it was like Auschwitz, right'? And this is an issue that needs to be avoided. I am unsure how to sove it (a note that could be added to non-WWII era cc articles, perhaps?), and it is likely a broader issue that may be worth re-discussing at talk of the main cc article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:14, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

We don’t borrow anything, this has been discussed endless amount of times including top-notch historians who describe those claims as "absurd" on page 316.. Bereza was a prison, interment camp - GizzyCatBella🍁 20:56, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

I cannot access the page, and anyway I don't see why Davies is the be-and-end all of all historians. You will note that concentration camp redirects to internment as scholarly sources say that a concentration camp is just somewhere that internment takes place. (t · c) buidhe 21:10, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Most scholarship uses concentration camp for this dreadful place where ethnic minorities and political prisoners were tortured. Carpathian fox (talk) 06:25, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that's accurate. So far none of the opponents of this name have shown that their preferred choice is the most common one in English, per WP:COMMONNAME. (t · c) buidhe 07:21, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I will try to find time to look at sources in few days, but this should not be moved without a WP:RM (which I may even support, after my review of sources). PS. I think the neutral name is the official name, i.e. "Place of Isolation at Bereza Kartuska" or whatever is the best translation (ping User:Nihil novi). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:33, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

Only sometimes does wikipedia use the WP:OFFICIALNAME; usually, that is only when it coincides with the WP:COMMONNAME in reliable, English-language sources (WP:USEENGLISH). Most English sources that discuss this topic do not mention the full, official Polish name. (t · c) buidhe 07:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

It was patterned after Hitler's Dachau concentration camp, though it often outdid Dachau in cruelty. This source too uses concentration camp. Carpathian fox (talk) 07:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

References

1. Davies, Norman (2005-02-24). God's Playground A History of Poland: Volume II: 1795 to the Present. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-925340-1.
2. Steinhaus, Hugo. Mathematician for All Seasons: Recollections and Notes Vol. 1 (1887-1945). Birkhäuser. p. 195.

The lead - what was BK? A prison or a camp?

"Bereza Kartuska Prison was a prison" is indeed not a very elegant sentence. I suggest using the full name, "Bereza Kartuska Isolation Camp". Then the sentence will read nicely ("BKIC was a prison, also called an internment camp, concentration camp or just a camp"). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:35, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

It isn't quite accurate to call this facility a prison, which according to Oxford English Dictionary is defined as, "A building in which people are legally held as a punishment for a crime they have committed or while awaiting trial." This is a site of extrajudicial detention of civilians so it is more accurately defined as an internment/concentration camp (the two terms are synonymous; both redirect to internment). (t · c) buidhe 03:11, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

If those terms are anonymous, internment camp seems less controversial and would be my preferred term to use. We do have redirects, but I think the lead should mention the term prison is often used (and there are still others, ex confinement center, detention camp, political jail, prison-camp...). After all, per statistics above, it seems to be twice as popular as cc, so COMMONNAME etc. PS. I think the most neutral way to solve this is to say "official name was a facility known as a, b, or c'". This follows NPOV and represents all POVs in the lead without endorsing one or another. Then we can rename the article to the neutral (official) name, which uses the uncontroversial 'isolation' term, so BK isolaton camp or such (if there is a better translation, grammar and common-name-wise). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:10, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Except that it isn't a prison. You have been here longer than I have, so I'm sure you're aware that when it comes to content, quality of sources trumps quantity. Where are the historians of Snyder, Piotrowski, Davies' caliber (the latter two, as you know, known for their pro-Polish interpretations) or institutions as prominent as the USHMM that endorse the description as prison? I think you won't find them (I didn't), because it is fundamentally misleading: it is not a prison but a place of extrajudicial detention.

The article should be moved, as WP:AT states that "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." (t · c) buidhe 02:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I am fine with de-stressing the term prison, because I agree this was more than that. But I don't think saying that it was a concentration camp is sufficient. I proposed a solution above, and I also edited the lead accordingly. I suggest we start a WP:RM. For the title I propose either Bereza_Kartuska Internment Camp, Bereza_Kartuska Isolation Camp, or Place of Isolation at Bereza Kartuska, but I am open to other suggestions. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:37, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

No Piotrus, - @Buidhe, I'm really stunned by your unwillingness to compromise. What is prison definition? Let me tell you - Prison is a place or institution of confinement, especially of long-term confinement for those convicted of serious crimes or otherwise considered undesirable by the government. Agree? Okay. Then look at here --> Prisons - (quote)--> "can also be used as a tool of political repression by authoritarian regimes. Their perceived opponents may be imprisoned for political crimes, often another legal due process; this use is illegal under most forms of international law governing fair administration of justice". Correct? So political opponents were kept in prisons, not concentration camps. Not in pre-war, pre-1939 Poland. Bereza Kartuska was a prison, yes, sometimes referred to as Prison Camp or Concentration Camp but we have all that in the lead, with references. You keep saying "sources". So tell me what this source says? Bereza Kartuska prison - correct? Tell me what this source says? - Prison at Bereza Kartuska. Tell me what this source says? Prison at Bereza Kartuska. Tell me what this source says? Isolation Kamp at Bereza Kartuska. Tell me what this source says? Prison Camp at Bereza Kartuska. Should I keep going? Should I start bringing sources in Polish? Maybe I'll stop here, okay? You also keep bringing Davies as a source, but the very Davies says on page 316 here - (check it for yourself because I can't quote one word from there, so I'll exclude that) quote from Davis ---> "For example to compare the rigours on the Polish internment camp at Bereza Kartuska .....with the Stalinist purges.... or to hint that the discomforts of the Jews under Polish rule were some way related to horrors of.... IS ABSURD. - That's what Davis says, and you keep bringing him up, claiming otherwise. And that's the problem Buidhe. You have prison in the lead; you have camp in the lead, you have concentration camp in the lead... What else do we have to provide to you to confirm that you are mistaken? - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:39, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Last time I checked, Misplaced Pages is not reliable source.

You are citing various sources of uncertain reliability, not all of which call it a "prison" (I am not sure what "prison camp" or "isolation camp" are, exactly). And, you do not follow up on my suggestion that quality not quantity matters, therefore you should cite sources that are equally authoritative as those which call the place a concentration or internment camp.

Citing Polish language sources is not advisable, part of this difficulty may be that these terms "prison" and "concentration camp" mean something different in Polish.

It seems that Davies says it is an internment camp, just not as bad as Nazi concentration camps (over their entire history) or Soviet gulags. I don't disagree with that. He does not support the idea that it was a prison, as you are claiming. (t · c) buidhe 03:47, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Buidhe -

1. - I'm not presenting Misplaced Pages as a source, I recommended it to read it, so you can get familiar with the term prison; please do not use this sarcastically in your argument
2. - I gave you references that define Bereza Kartuska as a prison, a prison camp, an internment camp, isolation camp, BUT you keep insisting on describing it EXCLUSIVELY as a concentration camp
3. - your claim that your sources are more "authoritative" than other sources. What that supposed to mean? According to whom?
4. - "Prison" and "Concentration camp" in Polish means precisely the same as in English, no difference, and Polish sources are as good if not better than English. That's where most history scholars specializing in Polish history are from, hundreds of them as opposed to a few who write on Bereza Kartuska subject in English.
5. - I didn't claim that Davies described Bereza Kartuska as a prison. YOU suggested he described it as a "concentration camp" by saying this - part quote --> "Where are the historians....Davies' caliber...that endorse the description as a prison?" No, Davies dos not described it as a prison, but neither he described it as a "concentration camp." In fact, Davies argues that comparing Bereza Kartuska to the Soviet or Nazi Concentration Camps is "ABSURD". That's EXACTLY what he says, right here page 316. So if you have such an admiration for Davies and he DOES NOT describe Bereza Kartuska as a concentration camp and even argues that such claims are ABSURD, why you keep insisting on using that term EXCLUSIVELY. Should I present all the reverts you have done introducing the term "concentration camp" over, and over, and over in the last two days? Even supporting the move of the entire page to "Bereza Kartuska concentration camp" by most likely sock puppet? - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:03, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

   1. I do not consider the definition of prison according to Misplaced Pages, only according to WP:RS.
   2. No, I said above that it would be equally accurate to call it an internment camp.
   3. When I said "authoritative", I meant that the author is a notable, recognized authority on a related topic such as concentration camps or Polish history. Such authorities receive more WP:DUE weight.
   4. I will take your word for it.
   5. There are many examples of concentration camps in history. Calling it a "concentration camp" does not imply a comparison with any particular concentration camp system. (t · c) buidhe 06:11, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm glad about seeing some progress. I'll leave now Buidhe and will let you and Piotrus settle this to your best judgments. You know my position, and I trust you two will agree on how to carry it from here as far as the title goes. Bereza Kartuska Prison, Bereza Kartuska Prison Camp, Bereza Kartuska Camp everything works, but Bereza Kartuska Concentration Camp, which brings disturbing implications as it was not such a place according to the reliable sources. Likely sock puppet moved the page to "concentration camp" and linked it to Dachau that was so misleading - GizzyCatBella🍁 06:42, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

While as I said before, I feel this particular discussion belongs on Talk:Concentration camp, re: "There are many examples of concentration camps in history. Calling it a "concentration camp" does not imply a comparison with any particular concentration camp system.", here's what I get from google query "what is a concentration camp": "a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz." on the right side of the screen, with a right side displaying info about "Nazi concentration camp. From 1933 to 1945, Nazi Germany operated more than a thousand concentration camps on its own territory and in parts of German-occupied Europe. The first camps were established in March 1933 immediately after Adolf Hitler became Chancellor of Germany." This is followed by a link to Nazi concentration camps on Misplaced Pages, than a Britannica entry that doesn't mention Nazis just "Concentration camp, internment center for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security" then Nazi Camps | The Holocaust Encyclopedia at USHMM. It seems quite obvous that Nazi-era camps are the primary association here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it's true that in popular discourse "concentration camps" is associated with the Nazi version, and confused with Nazi death camps. BUT this is not true in scholarly discourse, where it is a technical term which is used to describe sites of internment. (I assume that Google puts "Nazi concentration camps" in the sidebar, somewhat erroneously, because there is no wiki article "concentration camp"—it redirects to internment.) (t · c) buidhe 07:48, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Encyclopedias are intended for general audience, not only academics, and we need to keep that in mind. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:33, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Move to Bereza Kartuska

The WP:PRIMARY topic for the name "Bereza Kartuska" is this place (certainly in English and probably also in Polish); whereas, many sources in English and Polish refer to it simply as "Bereza Kartuska". The town is now called by its Belarusian name. Are there any objections to this move? (t · c) buidhe 14:27, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

OBJECT: Why introduce needless potential confusion? In pre-World War II Poland, Bereza Kartuska was a town in eastern Poland where the prison happened to be located. To save a few syllables, the prison was often referred to simply as "Bereza Kartuska" – much as San Quentin State Prison, which happens to be located in the town of San Quentin, California, is similarly, for short, often referred to simply as "San Quentin". But the California town is found on Misplaced Pages under "San Quentin, California"; the prison, under "San Quentin State Prison".

Nihil novi (talk) 21:12, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Unlike San Quentin State Prison, this place was not really a prison since people were detained without trial or charges. (t · c) buidhe 06:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Object per NN, this is just a Polish name of the town. This article should be renamed to the Isolation Camp or such. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:32, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Both "isolation camp" and "prison" are euphemisms. The place is more accurately an internment or concentration camp. (t · c) buidhe 06:48, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

What's the difference between a camp (in this context) and a prison, really? Bereza Kartuska Internment Camp would also be a possible name. The only one we should avoid is the concentration camp, as misleading (due to the association with Nazi camps discussed above). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:57, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

As I stated several times above, a prison is a place where people are detained pursuant to a criminal charge. If there is no charge, trial, or conviction, it meets the definition of a concentration camp. (t · c) buidhe 07:00, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Or of a detention center. There are also places like drunk tanks. And you familiar with the concept of Remand (detention), right? Real world is not white and black, as some simple definitions of concepts would like us think. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:58, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Wiktionary defines "prison" as "a place or institution of confinement, especially of long-term confinement for those convicted of serious crimes or otherwise considered undesirable by the government".

The definition seems to fit.

My personal dictionaries give similar definitions, including (as the first of 3 definitions) "a place where persons are confined" (Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language). The second definition is "a building... where convicted criminals are confined or accused persons are held awaiting trial."

Nihil novi (talk) 11:29, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

OBJECT - Bereza Kartuska is the name of the town. So again - "no", Bereza Kartuska is not the proper name for Bereza Kartuska prison. (Note prior discussions, Buidhe is bringing the same arguments repeatedly, and we are going in circles here. Thanks) - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:56, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

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