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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Palaeontology and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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This is the talk page for discussing WikiProject Palaeontology and anything related to its purposes and tasks.

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The article about Hesham Sallam

While looking through dinosaur articles, I noticed that Hesham Sallam, the describer of Mansourasaurus, has an article, despite not having a lot of notable contributions to paleontology under his name. Looking deeper, I discovered some... odd things about the page. See my analysis on the talk page. Atlantis536 (talk) 13:07, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Update: I've nominated the article for deletion. Atlantis536 (talk) 12:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I commented there, the gist being that it is unfortunate we have so few articles about non-western scientists, and many sources about him are probably in Arabic. Anyway, that's not based on Misplaced Pages gui8delines necessarily, so let's see how it goes. But I think we can be more lax for the sake of balance. FunkMonk (talk) 14:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Hominid fossil stubs and short articles - merge?

While reviewing Paranthropus boisei, I noticed the user Nowimnthing created dozens of short or stub articles for hominid fossils back in 2006 (see here and sub-cats). Today, some of them have been expanded to a point that could justify keeping them separate (though much of this info is about the taxa, not the specimens themselves, and therefore WP:content forks), but many remain short stubs with little logic as to why they would remain separate from their respective taxon articles (see for example Peninj Mandible or AL 200-1). I'd suggest most of them be merged, but since it's a significant number of articles, it needs a wider discussion. An alternative could be merging them and their info into List of human evolution fossils, as was done with the informally named dinosaurs articles. FunkMonk (talk) 14:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. JurassicClassic767 (talk | contribs) 17:10, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

All eyes needed

I just found this article with a large portion of the text that was added by the subject themselves, Michael Wachtler, who appears to be promoting self published pseudoscience paleontology.--Kevmin § 01:44, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Does he meet the notability baseline to even have an article?   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think he does; the article should be deleted. Ichthyovenator (talk) 07:59, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

A lot of text in the article sure doesn't pertain directly to him. Don't think we need a detailed exposition of Megachirella wachtleri in a BLP. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 02:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

The entire article beyond the Life section sounds like an editorial; just pick out any sentence at random and it sounds wholly un-encyclopedic and far too flowery, "Unimpressed by the charges brought up and the prison sentences, Michael Wachtler is considered more and more to be the "warning voice" against the destruction of nature in the Dolomites. Although the DoloMythos Museum is in danger of being closed by the authorities, he continues to fight without pause and more than ever before to raise the awareness of humans for the fragile environment"   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  02:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I have started a deletion discussion

I think many of the references also seem unreliable, but I'm not sure. The whole article also seems a bit strange; agreed that a detailed section for an animal discovery is unnecessary, and a lot of sentences do seem un-encyclopedic. JurassicClassic767 (talk | contribs) 17:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

As an aside, what is the purpose of the Prehistoric reptile article? It feels like a relic from 2009. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Err, maybe redirect to Evolution of reptiles? Seems like a pointless WP:Content fork. FunkMonk (talk) 20:13, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Oculudentavis, the saga continues

The preprint for the second specimen has been made available which has been submitted to eLife and will probably be formally published soon, there is also an interesting accompanying NatGeo piece, which is worth a read. Oculudentavis is definitely a lizard, but with an uncertain placement. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:23, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

So who will dare draw our life restoration of it? FunkMonk (talk) 17:31, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Both skulls have been crushed in proportionally different ways, a restoration is given in the preprint (p. 27) which represents a compromise between the two, and on a technical level looks quite good., the amber dripping around what looks like the living lizard to obscure the unknown hind sections does look incredibly goofy though. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

That reconstruction should be under a free CC licence once published in eLife anyways, right, so we can use it directly? --Jens Lallensack (talk) 18:07, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Schöningen forest elephant merge discussion

Based on the notability discussion that happened during the withdrawn DYK nomination, I have started a merge discussion on talk:Schöningen forest elephant, input is requested.--Kevmin § 15:26, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Parirau ataroa moved to mainspace

I called an AfD on the draft of this article in July which resulted in it being kept. The article has now been moved to mainspace at Parirau ataroa and I have opened up a second deletion discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Parirau ataroa. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:00, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Correlations tables

Tisquesusa has started to add "correlations" tables which show a rather random selection of formations from a given time period and shows a point system graph of what has been found in the formations. See Victorlemoinea and Golden Valley Formation. the problem is there is no indication of what sources are used for each table, and from my perspective they seem like rather wp:coatrackish information dumps collectons. For the Golden Valley formation, why have the rest of the Okanagan highlands formations been left off (Klondike Mountain Formation, McAbee Fossil Beds, Driftwood Canyon etc, while several formations with no articles are on the table. thoughts?--Kevmin § 01:19, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm not keen on them, for all the reasons you give. --Kent G. Budge (talk) 01:57, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't like it either. If we want something like this, we need sources like Fowler (2017) . Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 01:59, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I already dislike the San Juan Cretaceous stratigraphy image that has been slapped on to numerous formation articles (e.g. Kirtland Formation), which poorly represents the complex intertonguing relationships of the San Juan basin. But I can at least imagine it being useful for some reader somewhere, and it's probably okay appearing just once in San Juan Basin. This one has the potential to be slapped onto hundreds of articles and shed almost no light in any of them. --Kent G. Budge (talk) 02:08, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

I assume your comment is re: Fowler? I don't disagree, these sources need to be judiciously used in articles in a way that complements and illustrates surrounding prose, instead of replacing it altogether. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 05:50, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Steneosaurus finally exploded

The wastebasket taxon Steneosaurus was finally broken up, but that leaves a lot of new articles for us to create (I'm not sure I've seen so many new genera named in a single paper before), and synonyms to redirect (and free images to upload), so please have a look: https://peerj.com/articles/9808/?fbclid=IwAR3kGmKVKlYj40gUCpYLt2Il81ntg-acIy0jgjNAeBid9KILf3jS6Vc77Y4 FunkMonk (talk) 13:09, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Cleaning up the Walking with... stuff

Though not a palaeontological subject per se, there is no denying the influence the Walking with... series of documentaries has had on the latest generations of fans of dinosaur and other prehistoric animals, which is why I feel like this is an appropriate place to bring this up. I'm trying to do some work in cleaning up the coverage of them, I've for instance expanded Sea Monsters, but there is a lot of unnecessary and excessive stuff on here. I've nominated three articles for deletion, so I encourage anyone interested to participate in these discussions; Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of creatures by Impossible Pictures (a ridiculous unsourced list with tonnes of original research), Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dinosaur World (video game) (not a notable subject to begin with) and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Complete Guide to Prehistoric Life (not sure why this book in particular needs a Misplaced Pages article). Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:00, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I remember having to go home from primary school after playing Dinosaur World at lunch time as it made me nauseous, I have a copy of it on my computer for some reason. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:40, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

I also remember playing the game as a kid; it's nostalgic to be sure but I don't believe it to be a notable subject. Additionally, if some sources are found, it could perhaps be better accomodated within the Walking with Dinosaurs article (which already has subsections on the book version of the series, the "arena spectacular" and the movie). Ichthyovenator (talk) 23:57, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Definitely agree it could probably find a better home there. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 01:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree the game could just be merged. Now you mention it, I also remember playing it as a kid, but it didn't leave much of an impression, haha... FunkMonk (talk) 15:46, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Here's another AfD tangentially related to Palaeontology: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/List of creatures in Primeval (4th nomination). Ichthyovenator (talk) 09:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Likewise, I also tagged Prehistoric Planet (which is just a recut of the other series) for merging long ago, but nothing happened. FunkMonk (talk) 15:46, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree that Prehistoric Planet should be merged. Seeing as there's been no opposition to the merge suggestion for over a year I feel like maybe it would be okay to just go ahead and merge them? Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:43, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe what's now the intro could just be a section in the walking with article? Then the list can just be ignored. But I wonder if there are any useful sources about it?FunkMonk (talk) 17:07, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the list could be ignored seeing as it's just a list of animals (and there does not appear to be any differences between the animals featured here and the animals features in the original series seeing as it's a recut). It seems to be quite obscure so finding sources is a bit difficult (this was a problem even for the more well-known Sea Monsters), but perhaps this article could be used, if only for a few statements. The Walking with Dinosaurs article has a paragraph on the review by Common Sense Media for that series; Common Sense Media has a review for Prehistoric Planet as well, so perhaps that could also be used. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

It's amazing how there are people who want to keep the list around. A truly terrible list. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 21:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

At least one person is probably disagreeing on principle. But with luck and policy, this will be the time it gets deleted.--SilverTiger12 (talk) 21:33, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree that article is absolute afwul wikia-tier fancruft, makes the "List of cloned animals in the Jurassic Park series" look like a masterpiece by comparison. The random non-primeval illustrations of the animals is the icing on the cake, really. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:44, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

I agree with all of you Lythronaxargestes, SilverTiger12 & Hemiauchenia; it astounds me that it has survived three AfD:s. So far there's only three (surprising in of itself) keeps against six (or seven, I dunno if I count as the nominator) deletes. Perhaps fate will finally catch up to it. Ichthyovenator (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Brief notification

Hey, just stopping by to let yall know that I have (a) nominated the redirect Pratifelis for speedy deletion (Db-move), and (b) plan to move the article Pratifelis martini there as per normal policy to treat prehistoric species at the genus page. I also plan to expand the article once it's moved with what little mentions of it I could track down, so please don't mess with it yet. Happy editing! SilverTiger12 (talk) 18:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Considering the article has had only 20 edits in its decade long history, I think it's fine. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:53, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Description recency privilege

New research came out of Saccorhytus showing that it was in fact not a deuterostome, but an ecdysozoan. The article is therefore in need of a rewrite in light of this. However, rewriting the description section has me stumped; should the description privilege recent research, or should it be equally weighted on both its former interpretation as a deuterostome and its newfound one as an ecdysozoan? Giant Blue Anteater (talk) 22:07, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Considering how quickly these things change, I think the best thing we can do is state when there are different views and attribute the authors in text. A similar case could be Tullimonstrum. FunkMonk (talk) 22:49, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, the new article is still only a pre-print and has not been peer reviewed or published, it should not be incorporated into the article until it has done so. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:30, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Given that it is a preprint, the article should not be rewritten to focus on its perspective yet, although it may be worth briefly mentioning. If this research is properly published, I think the article should be written to put more emphasis on the new interpretation. After all, there is only one previous paper for the older interpretation and the new interpretation is based on additional material—it's not like this is overturning an established consensus or simply reinterpreting the same controversial fossils. Ornithopsis (talk) 20:10, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Possible source misrepresentation on an article.

The Picrodon article has recently came to my attention, and reading it, I discovered what may be misrepresentation of sources. See my discussion on the talk page. Atlantis536 (talk) 01:07, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Burmese amber albanerpetontid has been described

The first albanerpetontid to be described from Burmese amber, Yaksha peretti including a 3d dimensionally preserved skull, the first known for an albanerpetontid has just been published in Science, the skull is so good that it is probably worth creating a diagram of. The interpretation of albanerpetontids lifestyle from the new remains is also interesting, the bone arrangement suggest that they had ballistic tongues like chameleons. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

"Ballistic Tongues". That would be an excellent name for a rock band. --Kent G. Budge (talk) 20:10, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

"Ballistic feeders" is also a great name. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:17, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion at Talk:Selenotherium

Just a brief notice to flag the move discussion at Talk:Selenotherium. It is listed in the article alerts on the project page, but the blurb is very minimalistic. To me, it looks like the sources show that the title should be moved from Selenotherium to Selenetherium, but input from people with more expertise than I have of interpreting scholarly paleontology sources would be appreciated! --bonadea contributions talk 12:51, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm surprised there is even dissent, considering the authors spelled it with an e. FunkMonk (talk) 12:59, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Cretaceous collab

I am currently working on text for the Cretaceous article over at User:Hemiauchenia/sandbox99999, Its difficult to know how much depth to go into in terms of change in Dinosaur faunas as well as the rise of flowering plants. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:41, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd emphasize that there is no clear downturn in dinosaur diversity prior to the K-Pg. I think this is a common assumption that a lot of recent literature focuses on challenging. Lythronaxargestes (talk | contribs) 05:51, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

@Dunkleosteus77:, How would you feel about a selective merger of South Polar region of the Cretaceous into the Cretaceous article? Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:48, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I have no strong feelings   User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk  03:53, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

• Just for the record, I'll stay on the side-line so I can review when it comes to that (lack of palaeo-reviewers will probably be a problem if the entire project are nominators). FunkMonk (talk) 21:14, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Semicircular canals probably don't correlate with head posture after all

A new study just came out that finally tests whether semicircular canal orientation correlates with the head posture of animals in life, finding it is not the case, though this has been assumed for over a century, and has been applied to various extinct animals. FACs such as Nigersaurus, Amargasaurus, and Irritator state it as fact, but we should probably use more cautious language from now on. At least Nigersaurus is mentioned in the paper, so it can be cited directly in that article, and the Irritator paper is cited as well, so should be fine too. FunkMonk (talk) 21:19, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

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