Talk:Holodomor denial: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 05:32, 11 December 2020 edit2001:56a:f90f:a400:90c8:84b:a4da:2166 (talk)No edit summary← Previous edit		Revision as of 09:12, 11 December 2020 edit undoHob Gadling (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users18,480 edits →No consensus: do not put your new contribution in a place where it looks like an existing contribution is an answer to itNext edit →
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	::::::::Holodomor is not a synonym of ]. That's the reason why we have two different articles. Holodomor is the name given to the thesis that Stalin PLANNED to kill Ukrainians by starvation - it's the thesis that the Soviet Famine of 1932-33 was a genocide. That's Holodomor. Authors who do not claim this shouldn't be here. Or the article should have another name. I won't stop anything. If you are not willing to talk about the subject, ignore it. Nobody is forcing you to take part in this discussion. I won't stop just because you think you own this article. ] (]) 20:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)		::::::::Holodomor is not a synonym of ]. That's the reason why we have two different articles. Holodomor is the name given to the thesis that Stalin PLANNED to kill Ukrainians by starvation - it's the thesis that the Soviet Famine of 1932-33 was a genocide. That's Holodomor. Authors who do not claim this shouldn't be here. Or the article should have another name. I won't stop anything. If you are not willing to talk about the subject, ignore it. Nobody is forcing you to take part in this discussion. I won't stop just because you think you own this article. ] (]) 20:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
	:::::::::You are changing the subject to the famine in other parts of the Soviet Union, you make a claim that contradicts our article ], you are trying to shoo me away for disagreeing with your opinion. These are ], and you use them because you do not have a real answer to what I said: "Those quotes are about denying the famine". I am used to how other proponents of fringe theories argue, and you are no different. --] (]) 11:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)		:::::::::You are changing the subject to the famine in other parts of the Soviet Union, you make a claim that contradicts our article ], you are trying to shoo me away for disagreeing with your opinion. These are ], and you use them because you do not have a real answer to what I said: "Those quotes are about denying the famine". I am used to how other proponents of fringe theories argue, and you are no different. --] (]) 11:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
⚫	: If you think that the article is biased, then feel free to correct the record with your own credible sources instead of just accusing everybody else of being propagandists. --] (]) 05:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)Glome
	::I think there are some valid points here. Indeed, ] is a separate page and mostly a separate subject. The discussion if it was a genocide probably does not belong to this page. This is mostly about denying it even happened and about diminishing its importance. As about Tottle, he was a marginally notable denialst. One could ague he does not belong to this page or any other pages. At the same time, his book "Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: the Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard" is clearly a denial because it tells "Myth" about the actually documented event. ] (]) 01:25, 6 November 2020 (UTC)		::I think there are some valid points here. Indeed, ] is a separate page and mostly a separate subject. The discussion if it was a genocide probably does not belong to this page. This is mostly about denying it even happened and about diminishing its importance. As about Tottle, he was a marginally notable denialst. One could ague he does not belong to this page or any other pages. At the same time, his book "Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: the Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard" is clearly a denial because it tells "Myth" about the actually documented event. ] (]) 01:25, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
		⚫	: If you think that the article is biased, then feel free to correct the record with your own credible sources instead of just accusing everybody else of being propagandists. --] (]) 05:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)Glome

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This is a serious article; should have a higher level of protection

I don't think it should be up to random IPs to reverse other IPs who just grief this page like https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/2601:CD:C001:26F0:6124:CCE6:9D76:6E76 did a few days ago. Thanks.

I do absolutely agree with this. Even though, a better level of protection doesn't guarantee better information if someone wants to make something misleading, statement, information, one will find always a way. V9k8 (talk) 19:24, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

No consensus

If "there is no international consensus among scholars or governments on whether the Soviet policies that caused the famine fall under the legal definition of genocide", it makes no sense to have an article about "denial of the Holodomor". Besides, the article is heavily biased, under an "American red scared" quasi-McCarthyist line of thought. Dornicke (talk) 00:16, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

That logic does not hold water. Facts people deny do not have be genocides. People also deny moon landings, viruses, and climate change.

And citing serious history works is vastly different from McCarthyism. I suspect you are WP:NOTHERE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:48, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

That's not the point. If there's no consensus about Holodomor being a genocide, there's no point in talking about denial. There's no "denialism" of things that are not consensual. There's debate. Denialism is when people do not accept something which is considered a consensus. And I suspect I don't care about your "suspect". Dornicke (talk) 20:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

If there's no consensus about Holodomor being a genocide, there's no point in talking about denial This is called Chewbacca defense.

The article is about denial of the Holodomor, not about denial of the answer "yes" to the Holodomor genocide question.

The article even explicitly says "For the question of whether the Holodomor constituted genocide, see Holodomor genocide question."

There is a consensus that the Holodomor happened. Calling it a genocide or not is a different question, the article about which is a different one: Holodomor genocide question.

Do I have to link the article Holodomor genocide question once more, or do you get it now? --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:19, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

"There is a consensus that the Holodomor happened" - No, there isn't. There's a consensus that the FAMINE existed. Even the authors called "deniers" in this article admit the famine existed. "Holodomor" is the name given to the thesis that Stalin intentionally wanted to kill Ukrainians by the means of an architected starvation. That's the subject of this article. And this is not a consensus. Dornicke (talk) 21:15, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

From the article: "Official Soviet propaganda denied the famine and suppressed information about it from its very beginning until the 1980s." As you say, there is a consensus that the famine existed, and there was denial of the famine. What more do you need?

Maybe you should have taken an actual look at the article before you formed an opinion about it? At least look how often and in which contexts the word "genocide" appears. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:31, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

From the article: "he asserts that claims the Holodomor was an intentional genocide are "fraudulent", and "a creation of Nazi propagandists"." Tottle book does not claim the famine didn't exist. It clearly says the famine was real, but not intentional. Why is Tottle being present as a "denialist" in this article if this is about denial of the famine - and he doesn't deny the famine? Maybe you should read the article before you formed an opinion about it? Because, clearly, any person who has read it probably understand what's the point i'm raising, but you are struggling so much... Dornicke (talk) 09:29, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

"any report of a famine in Russia is today an exaggeration or malignant propaganda"

"Prominent writers from Ireland and Britain who visited the Soviet Union in 1934, such as George Bernard Shaw and H. G. Wells, are also on record as denying the existence of the famine in Ukraine"

"Russian state media ran several articles denying the severity and causes of the Ukrainian famine"

Those quotes are about denying the famine. The article is about denying the famine. Of course, other aspects are mentioned too, but that does not mean that the article is about something else, as you claim.

The article does not say whether Tottle's book denies the famine, so no amount of reading the article by me would have told me that he does not. Given your stout denial of the fact that people did deny the famine, I do not trust your claim that Tottle does not deny the famine - it could very well be that you are as blind when reading him as when reading the article.

Stop your reality-denying bullshit. Nobody is falling for it. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:43, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

Holodomor is not a synonym of Soviet famine of 1932–33. That's the reason why we have two different articles. Holodomor is the name given to the thesis that Stalin PLANNED to kill Ukrainians by starvation - it's the thesis that the Soviet Famine of 1932-33 was a genocide. That's Holodomor. Authors who do not claim this shouldn't be here. Or the article should have another name. I won't stop anything. If you are not willing to talk about the subject, ignore it. Nobody is forcing you to take part in this discussion. I won't stop just because you think you own this article. Dornicke (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

You are changing the subject to the famine in other parts of the Soviet Union, you make a claim that contradicts our article Holodomor, you are trying to shoo me away for disagreeing with your opinion. These are red herrings, and you use them because you do not have a real answer to what I said: "Those quotes are about denying the famine". I am used to how other proponents of fringe theories argue, and you are no different. --Hob Gadling (talk) 11:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I think there are some valid points here. Indeed, Holodomor genocide question is a separate page and mostly a separate subject. The discussion if it was a genocide probably does not belong to this page. This is mostly about denying it even happened and about diminishing its importance. As about Tottle, he was a marginally notable denialst. One could ague he does not belong to this page or any other pages. At the same time, his book "Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: the Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard" is clearly a denial because it tells "Myth" about the actually documented event. My very best wishes (talk) 01:25, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

If you think that the article is biased, then feel free to correct the record with your own credible sources instead of just accusing everybody else of being propagandists. --2001:56A:F90F:A400:90C8:84B:A4DA:2166 (talk) 05:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)Glome

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