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Revision as of 21:07, 20 January 2007 by Gidonb (talk | contribs) (→PvdW: Te veel gestemd: fix)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Please leave civilized messages in any major language originating from Eurasia. Answers will usually be in English. If the discussion is ongoing elsewhere, or more relevant to an article's talk page, please consider just leaving a note drawing my attention to that page. I am flexible: your page, my page, talk page, whatever is more relevant or suits you best. However, please do not post the same message twice. I look forward to your communication!

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Shukeib?

Never heard of it. Not to say you are wrong, but the name doesn't return any relevant Google hits, and I've never heard of it. Can you please provide a source? If not, it will need to be moved back to Segev Shalom. -- Ynhockey 09:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Try to Google it in Hebrew. gidonb 11:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
I fixed the title to Shaqib, thank you for the inquiry. gidonb 15:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Welcome

Thanks for the welcome. :) OmnipotentEntity 18:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

My pleasure. gidonb 19:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethiopia

Great job you've been doing on Ethiopia! Once you're done with this round of edits (actually probably tomorrow, it's already very late), I'll follow up after you with trimming for the larger sections and expansion for the smaller sections, with some images. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 07:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the positive feedback! Yes, there remain a lot to be done for this page to be a good country article. After my changes, I think the chapter on politics is worst. It is mostly about recent political history, while it should discuss the three branches of government, election methodology and perhaps a little on political culture. Most of the contents need to be included in history, difficult because it jumps back and forth. Perhaps the main points are there and the rest in the history article - I don't know. Culture should have a paragraph about arts, in the case of the Ethiopia much of it would be crafts (baskets, pottery, jewelry, etc.). The dances are very important and missing. The movements are special for Ethiopia and regions within. I would like to move the calendar table out, as it adds so little (can be moved to the article). What does it really tell about a country? The most important festival(s), I am thinking about the one with pilgrimage to Lalibela, can be added in text form to Christianity. Islam is much bigger, but customs may be less unique to Ethiopia. Economy needs to be expanded. Demography is missing; I can do it. The archeology and historical buildings could state what is where. I wrote a line as an intro to a not so important news item - perhaps we can move this to the history article. Well these are my thoughts for now. You must be a much bigger expert! Dehna ider, gidonb 07:58, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Egziabher yisTilign. Actually, Christianity is bigger (61.6% and Orthodox is 50%, while Islam is 32. something percent), but there is a lot of work to be done on the article. There is also some classic literature to incorporate in Culture, but I'll have to write some articles on the books first! Politics is certainly the worst section, and I think you're right about the calendar. It should go in another article that's linked to (perhaps a section on the calendar with the main article having the table?). Dehna ider, ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 08:25, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Indemin adderk, according to the CIA World Fact Book it is: Muslim 45%-50%, Ethiopian Orthodox 35%-40%, animist 12%, other 3%-8%. But never mind, we agreed on the principles. ;-) Literature will be very good. Please do not worry about red links, we can wikify or complete the authors and titles later. Cheers, gidonb 10:31, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Just a note, I'd rather get back to contributing, but the CIA factbook isn't that accurate. The numbers I said are from the Ethiopian national census (CIA data hasn't changed for a looong time!). — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 18:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, can you help me out over at Eritrea? There's a user (User talk:Cluckbang) there that refuses to accept my sourced information about the Sabaean migration being minimal and after the foundation of D`mt. Thanks. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 19:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry but I do not know anything about this. However, If it is well-sourced he should accept. If he has other good sources you may put in both versions as possible histories, with their own refernces. gidonb 20:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm afraid that I can't revert anymore without going over the 3RR. Can you help me out, as he's just reverted again. I believe he's reverted even more than 3 times, but he's also used IP addresses so that it's not as obvious. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 21:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Prod

Template:He icon אל תוריד את התבנית הזאת. הערכים ששמתי עליהם את התבנית נכתבו ע"י נמרוד קמר שנחסם לצמיתות מוויקיפדיה האנגלית או ע"י מישהו מטעמו. למרות שאני מתנגד נחרצות לחסימה שלו, שהיא נתפסת בעיני כאקט אלים, הרוב המוחץ של הערכים שלו הם פרסומת עצמית לו ולחברים שלו שהם בהחלט לא מפורסמים או חשובים מספיק בשביל ערך בשלב הזה. אני אומר את זה כמישהו שחי בישראל.--Haham hanuka 17:49, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I have looked at every one of them to ascertain that we are not deleting valuable information. For two articles, this may be the case. Please respect my judgment as is written in the template (!). They may still be AfDd. This entails some work. I did not question your judgment for all other articles. gidonb 17:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
באמת שנשבר לי ממך. לבנתיים העלתי את זה להצבעות מחיקה. נראה מה יהיו התוצאות. --Haham hanuka 18:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I would like to urge you to be more civil in your postings at this page. gidonb 11:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Eritrea - I have my sources!

Hi there, I am the individual that kept changing Eritrean history. I have sent all my sources to Yom. Can you please set some kind of compromise because u cant just assume right away that he is correct. I have given my sources mainly from Answers.com (keyword Sheba, Sabeans, South Arabian, Semites). I do apologize for repeatedly changing the history, its just that Yom has not provided me with any proof! While I have. You can even chek his talk page! Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cluckbang (talk • contribs) 22:39, 24 June 2006

"The Imperial family of Ethiopia claims its origin directly from the offspring of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, who is named Makeda in the Ethiopian account. The Ethiopian epic history of kings, the Kebra Negast, is supposed to record the history of Makeda and her descendants. King Solomon is said in this account to have seduced the Queen, and sired a son by her, who would eventually become Menelik I, the first Emperor of Ethiopia. It is speculated that the ancient communities that evolved into the modern Ethiopian state were formed by the migration across the Red Sea of Semitic southern Arabians who intermarried with local non-Semitic peoples. Indeed, the ancient Ethiopian kingdom of Axum ruled much of Southern Arabia including Yemen until the rise of Islam in the 7th century, and both the indigenous languages of Southern Arabia and the Amharic and Tigrean languages of Ethiopia are South Semitic languages. Evidence of ancient Southern Arabian communities in modern day Ethiopia and Eritrea are widespread and include archeological artifacts and ancient Sabaean inscriptions in the old South Arabian alphabet. " This one is from this website : http://www.answers.com/topic/queen-of-sheba Please reply Dr. Gidonb Cluckbang
Cluckbang, I already told you. Answers.com is a mirror of Misplaced Pages. It doesn't control its content - random contributors do. Also, I think that a book concerned wholly with a civilization of ancient Ethiopia (and therefore also its origins) is more reliable than an online website claiming something else. Remember WP:VER and WP:RS. See also on my talk page where a random IP put something from Richard Pankhurst that actually supports my view, as well. If you look at the Misplaced Pages page Queen of Sheba, you'll see the exact same information, without souces, presented as fact, so you must find another source. Please accept that answers.com is not a reliable source. — ዮም (Yom) | contribs • Talk 22:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
BTW Cluckbang, both passages clearly preface the statements you are basing your argument on with "it is speculated". I could cite numerous examples of speculation as proof of any number of assertions -- but which are clearly wrong. But I suspect the point Gidonb is concerned about is whether you have violated WP:3RR, & he probably has no opinion about this matter. Instead of violating this rule & getting banned from Misplaced Pages, why not take a 24-hour break from Misplaced Pages, & do some research to find another source for this claim? If you can find a published work that states your assertion as fact -- as Yom has found several for his -- then your position would be on much firmer ground. Or take a look at one of the 1.2 million other articles we have here, & seeing if you can help with one of them. -- llywrch 23:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The Holocaust

Re the Holocaust. I initiated a discussion about the French, and you brought in the Dutch. I have no idea why. If you wanted to discuss the Dutch, why not open a new section? What is so special about the Dutch anyway? I see you are in America. Should America share some of the guilt too? Or would this involve a rewrite of American History? Did it have to wait to get involved until Germany declared war on it? Can you think of any country in the world that is not guilty? Wallie 22:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No I did not really want discuss the Dutch. It was an association and I later rolled into it. I think the mixed topics have been resolved with your through-start and my new title. I doubt however if you are going to get many more reactions, beyond the excellent one you received. We probably have very different interests. I take interest in the approaches and how they evolved over time, not so much in who is "right" and "wrong". I certainly do not perceive the quoting of criticism as an "attack" on a nation. One of your questions relates to my interests. I do not believe there is need for the US to rewrite its history, although I am sure that this history writing will continue to evolve. While the US did so much in WWII, history books and people I talk always emphasize that the US could have done more. To me people here seem very caring, self-critical, and modest. But that is just my personal impression. gidonb 07:47, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Cave of the Patriarchs

Gidon,

Do you have proof that the information inserted is original research, and that indeed there were no intelligence reports give to the shamgar comission about imminent attacks? I would like to see these sources before you delete other information.

thanks

Guy Montag 16:01, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Captain Sudoku and his soldiers

Hi. I can't help with info on a max shtern prise - but could you check out those two articles: Captain Sudoku, Girls At The Cairo National Stadium - a user called haam hanuca keeps putting them for deletion suggestions.Marina T. 04:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I am one of a small group that follows the developments closely and I think that this is a one-sided description of the events. Captain Sudoku was prodded correctly by Haham hanuka. Later the prod was removed. This is ok if done according to our policy. There was a small edit war of you and him. With Haunka this happens very often. He cannot prod it anymore but an AfD is likely to be succesful. The Cairo film was tagged for prod and later correctly changed to AfD after an edit war between the two of you. If you like, you can also add your opinion to the AfD. If you have enough edits your opinion counts towards the conclusion. Otherwise you may be able to present your case. Just to prepare you: these articles and most others around the same group will probably be deleted in the end. gidonb 01:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Regarding the deletion of Ilan The Security Guard (an article I also contributed to) - It is notable - the topic of security in Israel and in Jerusalem has a wide interest and finding info of this movie could serve a lot of people doing researching on the matter. Marina T. 02:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


haham hanuka is a known troll in Israel. stop him Shmila 16:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

check out also - Marina T. 14:08, 30 June 2006

Thank you. I have voted. gidonb 16:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Your attention please

Take a look here: User:Daniel575/Pages about victims of Palestinian terror attacks on Misplaced Pages Thanks. --Daniel575 16:37, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Daniel, please see my answer at that page. gidonb 17:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Nimrod Kamer

Please remove the deletion notice that you placed on the Nimrod Kamer - it's a journalist that since it's deletion interviewed Jimmy Wales and is very known and very much searchable in Israel. Marina T. 04:37, 01 July 2006 (UTC)

As you may have noticed I am not getting into the pros and cons of the article, I just notified that this speedied article was recreated. I leave it to the admins to decide. However, if you object to the speedy deletion please add the {{hangon}} template and add your reasoning for keeping the article on the talk page. gidonb 01:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Haham Hanuka and AfD

Hi, I was a bit confused by the speedy deletion notice you placed on the AfD debate. Are you and this user having a clash of personalities, or has he engaged in other acts of vandalism? By itself, nominating a page for AfD isn't vandalistic. Please fill in the missing details for me, as I think I'm missing something. Best wishes, Xoloz 16:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Haham hanuka's vandalism was removing my message before an admin looked at it, not the very AfDing of the article. Removing such a message is something only admins should do. As I noted in my protest Haham hanuka makes it a habit of inserting half-baked procedures and templates into the Misplaced Pages space. He has an incredibly long history of disruptions, blocks and lazy work. I appreciate your investigation. gidonb 16:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

AfD "Jewish Communists"

Hi, I tried to answer your questions on the AfD-page. Cheers, ActiveSelective 08:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Speedy of Category:People convicted on war crimes

Greetings. I'm afraid the category doesn't qualify for speedy deletion, because it has 20 pages and three subcategories. Sorry. IceKarmaॐ 21:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

If it is not good for speedy, you did right to remove the tag. We should deal with it the hard way then :-D Please remember to put a semicolumn before the category name. Best regards, gidonb 05:01, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Bnei Sakhnin

Why did you delete and change incorrectly the statistics for Bnei Sakhnin? Every other football club on Misplaced Pages lists those statistics. -NYC2TLV (please send me a reply on my page)

Hi NYC2TLV, I was a bit puzzled what you are talking about, so I looked in the history of the article. I probably reverted big "coming soon" titles (no need to promise such things, best is to have the titles reflect the contents at all times), but accidentally also removed stats from the article. Obviously a mistake for which I take full responsibility. My excuses! Of course the stats are helpful for the article. I appreciate your continuous contribution to this article very much! Best regards, gidonb 04:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Sheynhertz-Unbayg

Hi Gidon: Could you please take a look Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Sheynhertz-Unbayg. Editors of Hebrew and Yiddish pages have come across User:Sheynhertz-Unbayg's work over the years. I am giving him the benefit of the doubt in the current RfC. Your views would be appreciated as this appears to be a cultural miscommunication too. Thank you IZAK 04:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Dora Venter

Thanks for recreating the AfD. I had taken this off my watchlist too soon apparently. I am in agreement the page does not belong and have added to the newly created AfD. Wildthing61476 01:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Wildthing61476. The credits for recreating the AFD really belong to Will/Sceptre who recreated the AfD and to Metros323 who suggested that solution. I merely detected the "improper" closure of the first AfD and raised concern about its fairness. Best regards, gidonb 10:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism

Hi Gidon: I noticed that you have not officially joined Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism and was wondering why. Please join and add your name at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism#Directory of participants. If you have any questions, feel free to ask me. IZAK 04:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Wickethewok's RFA

Thanks for your support on my RFA. The final vote count was (61/9/3), so I am now an administrator. Feel free to let me know how I'm doing at any point in time or if you need anything. Once again, thank you. Wickethewok 16:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
You are most welcome, glad you made it! gidonb 18:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Eurovision-related categories

If there's a standard to be adhered to regarding classifying songs as " Eurovision songs" or whatever, then I'm all ears and intend to start doing it as soon as possible. As far as I know, though, there's been nothing on the relevant Wikiproject about it. BigHaz 07:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi BigHaz, would be great if you can take over this job. I will try to make this case on the Wikiproject page. Thank you for drawing my attention to it! Regards, gidonb 15:43, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Template:Yitzhak Rabin assassination

Hi. I just took a look at Template:Yitzhak Rabin assassination which you have edited. Just a comment: isn't it better to make it a footer template which is added in the end of the article rather than on the side? First, it's very large and takes a lots of space. Second, it's not used in the linked articles, and therefore putting it in the end would be easier to transclude. Finally, I think that "top" navigational templates usually list articles in chronological order or list the fields or different subjects, whereas, the "footer" navigational templates usually list related articles. What do you think? CG 20:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Cedar-Guardian, sounds good to me, or side but then smaller letter type. Or even do without in the articles. After it was created by another user, I use the template to monitor POV pushing in articles, and edited it - as you correctly observed - but only to ascertain that its contents were good. Please feel free to format it as you like! Regards, gidonb 00:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll work on it when I have the time. CG 06:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
So if I delete it, you won't have any objection, or you prefer we keep it? CG 10:32, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
In principle I would have no objection. I would first like to copy the links somewhere within my personal space. You also may have to nominate it for deletion. gidonb 13:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
CG, please let me know if (and when) this is a path you would like to pursuit. Regards, gidonb 21:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry. I was on a Wiki-break due to traveling. I decided I'll nominate the template for deletion. If it failed, I'll change it to a footer template. CG 07:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem! I will create some page for watching articles in my user space. Happy travelling! gidonb 09:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Jewish topics

Hi Gidon: NEW: On Wikiversity there is now a "Jewish Studies School." Will it become a "duplication" of many things on Misplaced Pages? What should it's goals and functions be? Please add your learned views. Thank you. IZAK 09:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Gidon: Take a look at this please: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Jew Year's Eve. Be well. IZAK 17:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Izak, sorry too late... I have heard about Erev Rosh Hashana, but this one is new to me...! Is it a New Year's party attended mainly by Jews? gidonb 18:44, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Gidon: What is your view about this: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barry Gurary? Thanks for your time. By the way, my address book has malfunctioned. Please Email me with your Email address again. Thanks. IZAK 03:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Gidon: Your learned input would be greatly appreciated at User talk:ThuranX#Your past nominations to rename (Misplaced Pages:Undeletion policy). See my comments there please. Thanks. IZAK 14:36, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Gidon: Could you please take a look at the discussion concerning Conceptual backround: Hasidic dynastic disputes in the Barry Gurary article. See Talk:Barry Gurary#Dispute of content. Thanks. IZAK 03:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Izak, for the time being this really stretches beyond my expertise (if I have any). But I will read and try to learn something from the discussion. Thank you for your note. gidonb 10:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Israeli topics

Hi Gidon: Please take a look at the vote at Misplaced Pages:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 10#Category:Israel Defense Forces. Your expertise is required. Thanks a lot. IZAK 12:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello again, and a request

Hi Gidon, I hope you are keeping well. I would like to ask you to reconsider your vote on the Great Uprising proposed move. I think it is too early to decide on a move before we have established what is the form in general use (preferably in the academic sphere), and that hasn't been done yet. I really do believe that this should be established at least roughly, as a prerequisite for any move of an article in the fields of history and the social sciences. Seeing this move debate take place on the basis, at least in the case of the first few voters, of a purely emotional reaction to the existing title and on that basis supporting a proposal for which there was no evidence or supporting argument given, and which included a grotesque error showing that the proposer hadn't the first idea about the topic of the article, really enraged me. We ought to try to get beyond this. Regards, Palmiro | Talk 18:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Ahlan Palmiro. First of all my apologies for my late answer. As you may have seen by my change in the vote I was not entirely sure about this one. I do not have a problem with uprising or great uprising, just the title seemed ambiguous and the change appeared disambiguating. But the title was not changed, so perhaps the ambiguity was less then it appeared to me at that time or others voted around different concerns. Since I have no principal problem with this title I agreed with it at first sight. My only concern was practical and I am fine with it being rejected. You know that I promote a less "political" and more diverse coverage of the Middle East. I am happy to learn once more from the above that you do the same. Lets keep talking about such issues and see what we can do to improve articles. Best regards, gidonb 12:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey Re: Mercer Mayer

Hi Gidonb. I have been ading some more titles and I put some suggestions for more categories in the "edit this page" area. Feel free to discuss these with me. Antmusic 3 October 2006.

Hi Antmusic, right now we seem to be the only two to be concerned with the article, so your comments are fine. However, the best place to discuss these matters is Talk:Mercer Mayer, so that other may easily join in the discussion or learn from our concerns later on in the process. I already made a comment about the changes I was making on that talk page. With your approval (I hope) I will move some of the comments from the article to that page. Best regards, gidonb 22:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Please click here for my response to your questions. Great to have another person around who cares about this project! gidonb 23:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

New category proposal

Hi Gidonb, have you had a glance at Aecis' proposal at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Ethiopia/Geography? -- llywrch 02:59, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

contact

Template:Nl icon Dag Gidonb, ik zou je wil spreken over een klacht (niet tegen jou). De e-mailfunctie werkt niet en het is gevoelig. Gelieve mij een e-mail te sturen. --Walter 14:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC),checkuser walter AT wikipedia PUNT be

OK doe ik. Ik geloof dat ik weet over welke klacht we spreken. Toen ik navraag deed, werd me verteld dat je hierbij zou helpen. gidonb 18:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Nog niets ontvangen --Walter 17:40, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

cats

Template:Nl icon hoi gidon, taalgerelateerd in de cats zijn wel de dichters, maar niet bijv. misdaadslachtoffers, omdat deze aan het rechtssyteem gekoppeld zijn: dus per land... groetjes, oscar 12:00, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hoi Oscar, hoezo talen dit zijn deeltstaten. Belgie is sinds de jaren 1990 een federatie. Heb je het nu over Brusselse slachtoffers of Belgen in het algemeen? In het laatste geval is het dan misleidend dat die categorieёn überhaupt bestaan! Groet, gidonb 12:08, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Beit hachidush

Template:Nl icon Wat heeft dit te betekenen? Zelfs al was de inhoud onjuist geweest, dan is dit een onacceptabele manier om het te wijzigen. – gpvos (talk) 16:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... wacht even, er zit wel iets in jouw aktie. Maar ik vraag me nu af welke terminologie de juiste is. Daniel575 heeft daar duidelijk een ander idee over dan jij. Onder andere lijkt mij de interwiki van en:Liberal Judaism naar nl:Liberaal jodendom niet juist. Ai, weer een terminologiekwestie waar ik te weinig van af weet. – gpvos (talk) 16:53, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Ja bedankt. Ik had hier tweede gedachten over, maar was het alweer even uit het oog verloren. Ga het een en ander terug draaien en verder bewerken. Heel graag feedback als er dan nog vragen/opmerkingen zijn. Groet, gidonb 19:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Vooral dat jodendom in Nederland moet nog verder bewerkt. Het is een beetje ingewikkeld, omdat er sprake is van een verschuiving van het "reformjodendom" naar iets traditionelers in Nederland. Maar een paar dagen terug in de auto schoot me ineens te binnen dat het beste is de Nederlandse richtingen gewoon onder Liberaal jodendom te houden en toch die anderen als sub-artikeltjes aan te houden. Per slot van rekening is de Nederlandse situatie niet erg centraal voor het jodendom in het algemeen. Bovendien is er een parallel met het Verenigd Koninkrijk. Grappig voor zo'n klein landje met zo weinig Joden, maar de situatie binnen het orthodox jodendom is nog unieker omdat Chabad binnen de organisatie van het orthodox jodendom opereert. Enfin, ik moet dit nog verder uitwerken en stel jouw medewerking erg op prijs. gidonb 20:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Ik wil toch nog even opmerken dat ik de tekst wel had verplaatst naar de overlegpagina, opdat er in ieder geval niet uit het oog zou raken. Van iets, dat onacceptabel is, kan dus ook geen sprake zijn, maar daar kwam je zelf al op terug. gidonb 16:11, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Lijst van Israëlische schakers

Gidonb, inderdaad hebben we nu een aparte lijst van Israëlische schakers. Het idee achter de voorgenomen opzet van de schakerslijsten is wel dat deze lijst ooit een keer zal verdwijnen, dit echter pas na een zorgvuldige check of de blauwe linken inderdaad vanuit een andere lijst worden bereikt. Zie de zorgvuldige discussie over de lijsten met schakers in het schaakcafé. Groeten, Bob.v.R 01:12, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hoi Bob.v.R., in principe ben ik tegen de verwijdering vanwege de informatievernietiging. Toch wil ik er niet te veel woorden aan vuil maken omdat mijn oorspronkelijke lijst voor nl.wikipedia inmiddels door vele experts wordt bijgewerkt en een geweldig Wikipedisch "leven" is gaan leiden op en.wikipedia. Ik plaats de veranderingen nog over zo lang de lijst op nl bestaat. Ook heb heb ik de vele Israëlische rode links verwijderd van de lijst van bekende schakers want daar kreeg ik vragen over. Pas later zag ik de link naar het café waaruit lijkt te blijken dat die vele (voor mij genante, want op de een of andere manier kijkt men mij daarop aan) rode links hebben te maken met de discussie die jij nu noemt. Ik denk dat veel Misplaced Pages's trots zullen zijn op deze informatieve lijst. Dus laat me even weten als de stemming gaat, ik plaats een tegenstem, maar verder zoekt men het maar uit. Vriendelijke groet, gidonb 13:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Hoi Gidonb, zoals je in het schaakcafé hebt kunnen lezen is de keuze voor de uiteindelijk aanwezige lijsten na zorgvuldig en constructief overleg tot stand gekomen. Met name kwam hieruit, zoals je kan zien, dat we onder andere gaan werken met een lijst van Nederlandse en Belgische schakers, en een lijst met overige schakers (en schaaksters). Het opruimen van bestaande lijsten zal als het aan mij ligt zeer zorgvuldig gebeuren, zodat er geen schakers 'verdwijnen'. Hier zal nog wel enige tijd overheen gaan, gezien de wikibreak-situaties.
Naast deze lijsten is er ook nog een categorie-indeling van de schakers; deze gaat juist weer wel per land!
Tot op dit moment is er over de voornemens voor deze lijsten geen behoefte ontstaan om te peilen of te stemmen. In gezamenlijk en goed overleg zijn opties tegen elkaar afgewogen. Mocht je een heel andere lijstenconstructie willen hebben (wat ik overigens niet hoop), dan zie ik je voorstel wel tegemoet. Groeten, Bob.v.R 15:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Hoi Rob, ja ik ben wel voor lijsten per land, mits ze goed worden onderhouden. Je hebt ze immers ook voor Belgie en Nederland. Daar kunnen weer de rode links op staan die de algemene lijst ontsieren en kunnen details over categorieën voorkomen on and beyond de bekende schakerslijst (daar liefst alleen met artikelen). Voor Nederland en Belgie moeten lijsten bestaan want daar is anders te veel focus op. Voor de andere landen is dat een optie om extra informatie te communiceren en bij te houden. Je bent welkom mijn opinie over te brengen aan de schaakclub, mits je hierin al bent geïnteresseerd. Vriendelijke groet, gidonb 16:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Barnstar

The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
For your service and dedication to helping Misplaced Pages grow and improve. Your work on the Hitler page is most notable. Keep up the good work!Sharkface217 01:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Dank u...

Template:En icon Template:Nl icon ...voor het steunen van mijn recente RfA. Als ik van om het even welke hulp aan u als beheerder of als redacteur kan zijn, aarzel niet te vragen.

Ok, that was my crack at thanking you in Dutch with a mix of what little I have taught myself and babelfish. If it doesn't actually make sense, I am basically just saying thanks and if you need any help with my new tools or with copyediting, just ask. Cheers. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 18:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I am glad you made it! Babel or yours, your Dutch is fine. gidonb 19:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Jodensavanne

Template:Nl icon Goed ontdekt, dat oude vandalisme! gidon 13 nov 2006 08:17 (CET)

Graag gedaan! Mooie naam Gidon - zelfde als mijn neefje trouwens! MoiraMoira 09:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Heet je neefje Gidon of Gideon? gidonb 09:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal

Hi Gidon: Care to comment? Please see: Misplaced Pages:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-11-17 Religious opposition to same-sex marriage in South Africa. Thank you. IZAK 12:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Judaism in Northwest Africa

Template:Nl icon Hoi Gidonb, Ik heb een hoofdstukje over de geschiedenis van jodendom in Noordwest Afrika geschreven. Ik dacht dat je het zou willen lezen. Maar je weet het: Niets nieuws. Het is maar een samenvatting. Mocht je iets "onjuist" vinden, dan kunnen we er in de overlegpagina over discussieren. Gergroet! Read3r 14:58, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Template:En icon I am no an expert on the ancient history of the Jews in North Africa, but did some spell and language checking. gidonb 15:22, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Thanks. My English is worth overlooking; But i cannot write better than that. I was adding something about Marabouts culture among the jews . The funniest is that the jews worshiped some Moslim tombs and the moslims worshiped some jewish tomes, whereas some one are disputed. That is worth adding, i find :); Read3r 15:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC) I post here also an article on trouw.nl: Joodse bedevaart / Heiligen, wensen en alcohol. You can read it if you're interested. But you can also ignore it if needed. Read3r 16:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Jewish tourism in Arab countries and the Middle Eastern tombstone culture is a topic I already know somewhat more about. Thank you for the link anyway. Best regards, gidonb 19:29, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
It is a bit more than tourism and culture. Thanks for the spelling corrections, by the way. Best regards! Read3r 21:48, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Messianics again

Hi Gidon: The Messianic Judaism editors have been busy lately, you may want to know the following. Thanks. IZAK 19:52, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Lists of Ambassadors

Hello, Gidon. If you don’t mind, could you remove the Category:Lists of United States ambassadors from your Sandbox page? When viewing the category, your page shows up in the category listing. Your page is also in the Category:Foreign relations of Israel. Thanks. •DanMS 02:56, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Done it. I thought it'd be a matter of an hour before I complete the article, but apparently I have not worked at it for days. Thank you for your notice! gidonb 11:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Islamic extremist terrorism

Please specify what new title you would prefer. Thanks, KazakhPol 16:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kazakh, I will try to make a choice. Regards, gidonb 16:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Category:Palestinian rabbis

What does one make of the new Category:Palestinian rabbis and Category:Talmud rabbis in Palestine, should they be renamed to something like Category:Rabbis of ancient Palestine? so that it does not connect, and become confused with, the way the word "Palestinian" is used today (meaning the very unJewish modern Arab Palestinians, who have nothing to do with these rabbis!) Thanks. IZAK 09:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Not using "Palestine" or "Palestinian" for Talmud and rabbis to avoid confusion

Note: Many articles about the rabbis of the Talmud and Mishnah are derived from the archaic Jewish Encyclopedia, published between 1901-1906, over one hundred years ago (when the Middle East was still under the thumb of the Ottoman Turks) and which used the archaic expressions "Palestine" when referring to the Land of Israel, and to the Jews living in the areas of the historical Land of Israel as "Palestinians." This is a big mistake that requires constant attention and correction, especially when copying and editing articles from the Jewish Encyclopedia or from similarly archaic sources such as Easton's Bible Dictionary (1897). At this time, no-one uses the term/s "Palestinian/s" (in relation to anything associated with Jews or the land they lived in and which they regarded as their homeland) nor by any type of conventional Jewish scholarship, particularly at the present time when the label "Palestinian" is almost entirely identified with the Palestinian Arabs who are mostly Muslims. Finally, kindly take note that the name Palestinian Talmud is also not used and it redirects to the conventional term Jerusalem Talmud used in Jewish scholarship. Thank you. IZAK 13:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Not using "Palestine" or "Palestinian" for Talmud and rabbis

Makes sense, I'll try to remember. However, there was a period when everyone referred to the land of Israel as Palestine. Therefore, to say something like "in 1940 Shlomo Pines emigrated to Israel" would appear to be an anachronism. Don't we have to use the term "Palestine" during a certain period for historical accuracy? What is this period? From Roman conquest until 1948? Thanks. Dfass 15:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi Dfass: Note: The term "Land of Israel" is an old one of Biblical origin, whereas the name "Palestine" is considered offensive by many Jews because it was coined by the Romans after they crushed the Jews of Judea-- and needless to say today it refers exclusively to the Arab Palestinians and never to Jews. Note also that the "Land of Israel" article is not the same as the "Israel" article because the latter refers to the modern post-1948 Jewish state. My main concern was about rabbis from the Mishnaic and Talmudic eras, up until about a hundred years ago being called "Palestinians" on Misplaced Pages as a follow-through from the many articles that have been copied and pasted from the old Jewish Encyclopedia and which collectively create the wrong impression. Such are the hazards of relying on dated information, long-discarded terminology, and unsuitable writing and communication styles. Misplaced Pages as a modern encyclopedia should not be relying on archaic terms such as "Palestinian rabbis" that could potentially cause grave misunderstanding. I think that from the time of the British Mandate of Palestine, also shortened to "the British Mandate" and sometimes "Palestine," that Jews were associated with those terms from 1923 until 1948 when the modern State of Israel was declared. I hope that you have noted that I am most definitely NOT saying that whenever the Jewish Encyclopedia uses the term "Palestine" that the single word "Israel" should be used -- obviously I do not mean that because when Israel is used alone on Misplaced Pages it refers to the MODERN State of Israel only. On the other hand, what I am saying is that when the word "Palestine" is used in archaic sources that predate modern Israel, and when writing about Judaic topics that relate to the Middle Ages, Talmudic, or Biblical times, then the better, more accurate, less controversial term for Misplaced Pages to use is "Land of Israel" which is historically what the Jewish people, and everyone else in academic life, have and do still call it. Hope I have clarified myself, and thanks for caring. IZAK 12:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, I think I get the drift. I will pay attention to it in the future. (Don't be so down on the Jewish Encyclopedia though! It's an incredible work, written by some tremendous scholars. I think these articles significantly raise the quality of Misplaced Pages, whether their English is somewhat archaic or not. If you compare a JE-borrowed Misplaced Pages article to one written by "the masses," you can't but be struck by the difference in quality and scholarship. The typical Jewish Wikipedian (myself included) is not capable of producing articles of anything like that caliber. Most Wikipedians cannot even be bothered to cite the sources for the couple of factoids they manage to dredge up from their memory of 10th grade.) Thanks again for the clarification. Dfass 15:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
      • Hi Dfass: I am not down on the old Jewish Encyclopedia at all, and I fully agree with you that it is a more than masterly work of scholarship. But is was written in the context of the culture of over a hundred years ago as a product of the nineteenth century! My specific concern at this stage was only about how the meaning and application of the word/s "Palestine" and "Palestinian" are getting "lost in the cut-and-paste process" because one hundred years ago, "Palestinian" was used as an academic adjective as for example, together with "rabbis" ("Palestinian rabbi/s") or the Talmud ("Palestinian Talmud"). Up until 1948 the words "Palestine" and "Palestinians" still had application/s to Jews because of the existaence of the British Mandate of Palestine until 1948 in the territories of historically Jewish Land of Israel. Since then, the name "Palestine" and "Palestinians" has shed any connection to Jews and the modern Jewish State of Israel which was set up in contradistinction to an Arab Palestine. Particularly since the rise of the PLO (the Palestine Liberation Organization), following the 1967 Six-Day War, the term and notion of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" has become thoroughly and exclusively connected with the Arab Palestinians to the point that no-one (not in politics, academics, the media, religion, etc) associates the name "Palestine" and "Palestinians" with the Jews or Judaism, so that it can safely be said that the notion of a "Palestinian Jew" is an archaic anachronistic discarded notion. So when cutting and pasting articles from the one hundred year old Jewish Encyclopedia, one should not fall into a "time warp trap" by blindly pasting articles from it without some sensible updates, and not to inadvertantly recreate and foster terminology for Jews and Jewish Israelis that neither they nor the world accepts or recognizes. One needs to be conscious that the term "Land of Israel" is a well-established name that has survived for a long time and is still the preferred term of choice when speaking in modern terms, so that Jews not be confused with Arabs and vice versa. By speaking of the Category:Rabbis of the Land of Israel, meaning rabbis (or any Jews) associated with a historic geographic area, one also avoids problems such as calling pre-1948 rabbis or people "Israelites" -- used only for people in the Biblical era or "Israelis" -- which refers to citizens of the modern State of Israel. Thanks for your input. IZAK 07:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Nieuwe gebruiker "Mindconquer"

Template:Nl iconHello, gidonb, de Help:Helpdesk zat in mijn volglijst en zo zag ik een nieuwe: Mindconquer. Je zond me de welkompagina in een sjabloon en ik denk dat die man/vrouw dat ook nodig heeft. Je leest ook wel es wat ik schrijf op zijn pagina hé? Bedankt. Dartelaar 23:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Ja, gidonb, kan iets te vlug gelezen zijn. Het lijkt me niet de bedoeling om die tekst van mij te verplaatsen. Kun je je ingreep reverten? (Die tekst wissen moet die man/vrouw "Mindconquer" zelf maar doen. Ik heb intussen wel gelezen op je pagina dat je geen moderator bent. Ik bedoelde je hulp te vragen voor:

  • het opsturen van de welkompagina (zoals je dat naar mij deed: ik tikte ook als proef {welkom} maar het blijkt niet te werken. Hoe komt dat eigenlijk?)
  • het invoegen van een link waar die m/v gebeurlijk moet vragen zijn gebruikersnaam te wijzigen in Mindconqueror. (Shit, ik ben te begaan met mensen :-).)

Mvg, Dartelaar 00:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Ik heb zonet enkele mineure correcties aangebracht in Holocaust. Prachtig uitgebreid artikel. Hoe schrijf je dat Hebreeuws in een tekst? Ik zie het alfabet niet staan in de speciale tekens.

De tekst verplaatsen mag iedere gebruiker, teksten plaatsen op de gebruikerspagina eigenlijk niet, maar het is me zeer duidelijk dat hierbij alleen goede bedoelingen van jouw kant waren. Een welkomstboodschap verstuur je door {{welkom}} te schrijven. Hoe iemand zich noemt, wil ik mij niet mee bemoeien, uitzonderingen (b.v. namen van genocideplegers of scheldwoorden) daargelaten. Ik heb je redactie wat vereenvoudigd, goed opgemerkt overigens! Hebreeuws tik ik gewoon in met mijn keyboard; ik heb de taal geïnstalleerd. gidonb 02:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Tiens, tiens, dat heb ik zo gedaan: {{welkom}} schrijven en zoals gezegd, het werkte niet. Misschien moest ik ook zoals jij er de titel Welkom boven zetten. Ik ga nog es zandbakken erover. Dartelaar 03:52, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion

Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion FYI: Hi Tomer! A Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion has asserted itself in the Korban article. The project indicates that it is an umbrella project for all of religion and that the current religion projects are subprojects of it, yet its member directory lists only six members. Where is the project coming from? Is it a broadbased project, a very small group with a very big reach, or what? If you know some background or some of its people, would be much appreciated. Best, --Shirahadasha 03:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi Shira: I noticed this comment. Their assertion is outrageous and false and should be rejected and disputed to the full. There is no "supreme council of religion" on Misplaced Pages and there never will be. Each religion has its experts and contributors on Misplaced Pages and none of them will ever tolerate interference from outside busy-bodies. Judging by their user pages, the members of this "religion" project are obviously coming from a Christian POV and seems they now wish to "double dip," pretty funny actually. See my notice on that page, below. Thanks, and may the Lights of Chanukah dispel all ignorance and darkness. IZAK 10:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE and OBJECTIONS to WikiProject Religion vs. Judaism

Hi: Please see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Religion#Judaism. Thanks, IZAK 10:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

NOTICE and OBJECTIONS:

  1. No-one has the right to take upon themselves to be the controlling "project" for every religion on Earth!
  2. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism has been, and shall remain an independent project and will not accept interference in its work based on the assertion that editors not familiar with Judaism's traditions have a self-appointed "right" to interfere with Judaism-related articles by mere dint of being members of a "religion" project.
  3. So far, as of 12/21/06 the mere six members of this project, are mostly Christian, (as self-described on their user pages) and raises the question, why don't they do their work in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Christianity (81 members as of 12/21/06)? How can a project with six members "pass judgment" on other projects with one hundred and twenty four members?
  4. What will members of other projects, such as Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Islam (64 members as of 12/21/06) think and react when "religion project" editors will advise what's best for Islam-related articles or not?
  5. Note: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Judaism adheres to WP:NPOV and is one of the oldest Misplaced Pages projects with over one hundred and twenty members (as of 12/21/06), a number of whom are respected sysops as well, highly knowledgeable about many matters relating to Category:Jews and Judaism.
  6. It would not be advisable for anyone to interfere with Judaism-related articles or Hebrew Bible-related topics that ignores the broad based consensus and general agreement that exists between Jewishly-oriented editors of Judaic articles, many of which touch upon Jews because being Jewish includes being both a part of Judaism as well as being part of an ethnicity, and a project on "religion" alone cannot and does not have the scope to touch upon issues that effects not just Jews and Judaism, but also Israel and Jewish history, see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Jewish history (with 33 members as of 12/21/06) and a broad range of related issues and projects, see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Jewish culture (19 members as of 12/21/06) and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel (23 members as of 12/21/06).
  7. Finally, Misplaced Pages is not the forum to create a de facto neo-"ecumenical project" which is only bound to cause confusion and resentment and will result in confusion and chaos and inevitabley violate Misplaced Pages:No original research; Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought; and Misplaced Pages:Avoid neologisms.

Thank you for taking this matter seriously. IZAK 09:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Response to NOTICE and OBJECTIONS to WikiProject Religion vs. Judaism

Hi Gidon: It is very important that you see the points and the response from User:Badbilltucker about his aims at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Judaism#NOTICE and OBJECTIONS to WikiProject Religion vs. Judaism ASAP. Have a Happy Chanukah! IZAK 15:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Roelof666 aan Gidonb

Wat heb ik vekreerd gedaan ik heb alleen maar een paar uitgelciht sjablonen veranderd en Nazistische onderwepren geplaatst iedereen mag otch een uitgleicht sjabloon veranderen (dacht ik) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.69.239.209 (talk) 00:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Image copyright problem with Image:Lambang_sahara_barat.png

Thanks for uploading Image:Lambang_sahara_barat.png. The image has been identified as not specifying the copyright status of the image, which is required by Misplaced Pages's policy on images. If you don't indicate the copyright status of the image on the image's description page, using an appropriate copyright tag, it may be deleted some time in the next seven days. If you have uploaded other images, please verify that you have provided copyright information for them as well.

For more information on using images, see the following pages:

This is an automated notice by OrphanBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Misplaced Pages:Media copyright questions. 10:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Please note that the image Lambang_sahara_barat.png was uploaded by another user. I uploaded it at the Dutch Misplaced Pages and made a mistaken edit here. This was a long while ago. While I cannot clarify the copyrights of an image uploaded by another user, I can link it to the image at the Dutch Misplaced Pages (if still existing) so we can learn from each other's review process. Best regards, gidonb 17:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Adolf Hitler's contacts with Jewish people

Hi Gidon: Have you ever had a close look at this strange article: Adolf Hitler's contacts with Jewish people? It's full of red links for the supposed Jews he had contact with (do they deserve articles just because they were Hitler's alleged dentist/shoe-shine-boy/chimney-sweep/whatnots etc?) It's weirdly prurient. The heading stinks. Do all the Jews killed in the Holocaust get to be in it? How about all the theories about Hitler having a Jewish ancestor, does that also count as him having "contact" with Jewish people? I doubt that the originators of this article and those who worked on it have rational objectives. It should be merged with something else involving Adolf Hitler or even deleted for its stupidity. (If not, how about Adolf Hitler's contacts with gypsies, Adolf Hitler's contacts with Italian people, Adolf Hitler's contacts with Russian people, Adolf Hitler's contacts with retarded people, Adolf Hitler's contacts with murderers this can go on forever, and then we can even create Category:Adolf Hitler's contacts with people. IZAK 02:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Izak, bundling these three dealings by Hitler with Jews under this title is clear OR. As you can see in the reference list none of the sources deal with contacts of Hitlers with Jews in general. The one important interaction and two anecdotes should be and probably are included in the respective biography articles, the interaction with the doctor may also be included under possible sources for Hitler's antisemitism. The latter is also a clear secondary focus of the article. This lack of focus is another reason to delete it. It should not be dealt with by creating similar articles or through merger, but only through an AfD procedure as it violates everything Misplaced Pages stands for. Regards, gidonb 02:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Esther and Abi Ofarim

Yeah, in retrospect I agree with you. I've added a comment to the talk page. Cheers, DWaterson 14:29, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain this please?

Why did you remove my comment, as seen in this diff? Yuser31415 01:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Yuser, sorry for the accident! I agree with you that it was kind of ironical, given the content of the message! ;-) Regards, gidonb 01:58, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Ha ha, that's okay. Template:Emot Yuser31415 02:16, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Funny Swastika

Hi Gidon: Take a look at these templates:

with the Image:HinduSwastika.svg displayed prominently. Honestly, of all of Hinduism's symbols' did this one have to get "headline" billing on these templates? Alternatives are aplenty if one were to look around on articles listed on {{Hindu Deities and Texts}} where there are dozens of less offensive symbols that could be chosen for the same purpose. While the swastika may be ok with some Hindus, it should not be flashed around "in all innocence" because for the rest of the world that was caught up in World War II it was the symbol of literal EVIL, DEATH and DESTRUCTION emanating from the Nazis. It was Hitler's personal diabolical "symbol of choice" and for that reason it is VERY far from neutral, no matter in what context it is used. It violates Misplaced Pages:Civility to have it displayed in such an "in your face" fashion on these Hindu templates, giving it a dubious "place of pride" it does not deserve. Need one say more? IZAK 22:57, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

PvdW: Te veel gestemd

Template:Nl icon Beste Gidonb/Archive 2007,
In het Pvdw stemlokaal heb je meer dan 3 stemmen gedaan. Helaas is dat niet de bedoeling. Zou je daarom het teveel aan stemmen willen verwijderen? Anders worden al je stemmen ongeldig.
Groeten, Kameraad Pjotr 20:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC) Aangepast. Vriendelijk dank, Pjotr gidonb 20:45, 19 January 2007 (UTC)