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Re:Suletta and Ericht
There is currently no proof in the anime that Suletta and Ericht are the same person. They were listed separately on the official website and Episode 6 stated that the events of the Prologue took place 21 years ago, meaning Suletta couldn't have been Ericht because her age doesn't match. M-Tails-P (talk) 00:41, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- I think we'll need to wait for more info before we change the article. Episode 6 spawned a lot of fan theories that they're separate characters, but we don't actually know that. At this time, even the fandom page regards them as the same character. I'm sure by the end of the series there will be secondary sources to cite to clarify this. Vanilla Wizard 💙 07:40, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- The Fandom page means nothing. It was completely written by fans and has absolutely no bearing on anything. What we do know is that both the official WfM website and the Japanese version of this page listed Ericht and Suletta as two separate characters. Since there is nothing in the show confirming that they're the same person, they should be regarded as different characters until it's confirmed that they're the same person.M-Tails-P (talk) 10:08, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to imply that the Fandom page is a source, I only mentioned it to make the point that if there was reason to believe they're separate characters, they'd probably be quicker to mention it than Misplaced Pages. The Japanese version of this Misplaced Pages article doesn't have any bearing either. Could you link to the official website? Vanilla Wizard 💙 23:07, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's on the page under external links. M-Tails-P (talk) 00:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- I was expecting to see them listed as separate characters on the same page, but they're not listed separately because Ericht isn't even listed as a character in the series. Ericht is described on the prologue page, but the show (likely intentionally) leads viewers to assume that Ericht grew up to be Suletta so it's not really evidence that they're separate people. Seems like the confusion about the two characters is purposeful from the writers. I say we just wait for the show to inevitably clarify this and default to the status quo for now instead of making changes based on fan theories. Vanilla Wizard 💙 04:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- The keyword is "assume", it's an assumption that's never actually confirmed in the show. And it's not the job of the Misplaced Pages page to actually make that connection. I still believe they should be listed separately until they're confirmed to be the same person. M-Tails-P (talk) 13:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- Secondary sources also state in no uncertain terms that Suletta == Ericht, and it's still more of a speculative theory that they're not the same person. For what it's worth, I too think they're probably not the same person, but that's still just a fan theory while the canon so far is that they are the same person. Again, deliberate ambiguity. Not really any value in further discussion unless and until we get clarification. Just be patient. Vanilla Wizard 💙 00:48, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
- Unless those secondary sources have some kind of information that we don't have, they are as speculative as this Misplaced Pages article. This article should really be updated to reflect the official character descriptions instead of adding fan speculation about Elricht and Suletta being the same person. Hamuko (talk) 13:38, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
- Secondary sources also state in no uncertain terms that Suletta == Ericht, and it's still more of a speculative theory that they're not the same person. For what it's worth, I too think they're probably not the same person, but that's still just a fan theory while the canon so far is that they are the same person. Again, deliberate ambiguity. Not really any value in further discussion unless and until we get clarification. Just be patient. Vanilla Wizard 💙 00:48, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
- The keyword is "assume", it's an assumption that's never actually confirmed in the show. And it's not the job of the Misplaced Pages page to actually make that connection. I still believe they should be listed separately until they're confirmed to be the same person. M-Tails-P (talk) 13:28, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- I was expecting to see them listed as separate characters on the same page, but they're not listed separately because Ericht isn't even listed as a character in the series. Ericht is described on the prologue page, but the show (likely intentionally) leads viewers to assume that Ericht grew up to be Suletta so it's not really evidence that they're separate people. Seems like the confusion about the two characters is purposeful from the writers. I say we just wait for the show to inevitably clarify this and default to the status quo for now instead of making changes based on fan theories. Vanilla Wizard 💙 04:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- It's on the page under external links. M-Tails-P (talk) 00:54, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to imply that the Fandom page is a source, I only mentioned it to make the point that if there was reason to believe they're separate characters, they'd probably be quicker to mention it than Misplaced Pages. The Japanese version of this Misplaced Pages article doesn't have any bearing either. Could you link to the official website? Vanilla Wizard 💙 23:07, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Souletta is officially the first female protagonist in mainstream gundam show history.
Official sources unequivocally name Suletta as the first female protagonist among the TV versions of the show. Should we remove all these fan references to various OVAs, ONA and spin-offs that had female leads? Solaire the knight (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2022 (UTC)
Spaceian/Spacian
I've no clue why this is the subject of an edit war, but despite one user's declaration of "Do not attempt to bypass the discussion" aimed at the anonymous IP user, there has been no attempt whatsoever prior to now to open any such dialogue, neither on this talk page nor on the IP user's as-yet nonexistent talk page. Regardless, the answer in this dispute is easily solved by some cursory research.
The official website for the show contains a glossary of in-universe terms and their meanings, as well as their offical spellings in English. One such entry, titled, Spacian and Earthian, reads as follows:
- The inhabitants of space are called "Spacians," and the inhabitants of Earth are called "Earthians." The economic disparity between these two camps has widened with the growth of space industry, producing division and strife between Spacians and Earthians.
As such, the page should go with the official English spelling of "Spacian" rather than "Spaceian," which, as the anonymous user points out, doesn't really make sense in English anyway. I will be adding this glossary as a source to the page shortly, and hopefully we can all stop wasting time on this. silvia (User:BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4) (inquire within) 00:16, 10 December 2022 (UTC)
- I find it quite logical that the one who started this conflict and whose edits caused disagreement should start the discussion of their edits. Because it turns out very strange, the anonymous person kindles the edit wars and communicates exclusively through comments on the cancellations, but I'm the only one who should start a discussion (which is not yet a fact that a person will join) and look for sources for it. Especially considering that this page is half dead, and I opened the topic a long time ago in the discussion of the anime project. But one way or another, the issue is resolved, so I see no point in further discussion. Solaire the knight (talk) 11:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Solaire the knight good job publicly embarrassing yourself, now there's a useless reference on the page that only serves one person and is completely obvious to anyone else with an understanding of language 70.120.198.81 (talk) 05:59, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- An ironic comment from whoever started this in the first place, stubbornly waging an edit war and ignoring any calls to resolve this through discussion. Also, if you passed to get personal, I will contact the administrators about the obvious violations of the rules of communication. Which are obvious to anyone who has knowledge of the rules. Solaire the knight (talk) 07:49, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Solaire the knight good job publicly embarrassing yourself, now there's a useless reference on the page that only serves one person and is completely obvious to anyone else with an understanding of language 70.120.198.81 (talk) 05:59, 15 December 2022 (UTC)
“Criticism of Capitalism”
There’s text linking to “Criticism of Capitalism” in the intro.
None of the characters on this show have made any remarks criticizing capitalism. In fact, the protagonists even do a startup. Capitalism simply exists as a part of the setting. It’d be better to just say “Capitalism” without the “Criticism” part.
If one of the show’s creators said something about “criticism,” then that should be cited.
Otherwise this genuinely comes across as communist propaganda. Citation needed. Rstrug (talk) 13:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Plus Bandai sells Gundam merchandise! It’s on this page! Gundam shows came into existence to sell Gundams! Why would they criticize what they do themselves. Makes no sense. 😂 Rstrug (talk) 13:39, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- You're clearly new to the media, because shows critical of capitalism from big brands are so frequent that it's even a running gag. This is first. Secondly, anyone who has watched this show will obviously understand that the characters started the startup not out of love for business and capitalism, but out of necessity to save Gundam and protect the MC. This is even directly discussed in the plot. Thirdly, if you continue the edit war with such highly formal and forced excuses and a clear conflict of interest, judging by your complaints about "communist propaganda", I will demand your blocking. Solaire the knight (talk) 14:16, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Y’all started the edit war.
- Then cite the scene. Cite the exact dialogue.
- The rules are on my side: “Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article space.”
- This has been challenged. Cite it. Rstrug (talk) 17:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Stop exploiting dry formulations and shifting the burden of proof. The edit war started exactly at the moment when you ignored my answer and silently reverted your edits. Secondly, Gundam has always been a leftist social commentary franchise. You can see this as "communist propaganda" as much as you like, but removing the mention of capitalism criticism from the article based on your political opposition to it is simply destructive. And stop writing posts in a pile, these are not social networks, you violate the readability of the thread and complicate the answers to it. Solaire the knight (talk) 17:46, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- “Always been leftist”
- There it is. If you want to claim that, then you need a citation. You don’t speak for the brand. Stop projecting.
- You’ve been lying constantly throughout this entire experience. There’s a paper trail that points out all of your lies. Rstrug (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Read any interview with Tomino about the ideological content of the franchise, as well as his views on the world. However, since you continue the edit war provoked by a conflict of interest and now even directly insult me, this no longer makes sense. I wrote to the administrators asking for your blocking. Goodbye. Solaire the knight (talk) 18:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Stop exploiting dry formulations and shifting the burden of proof. The edit war started exactly at the moment when you ignored my answer and silently reverted your edits. Secondly, Gundam has always been a leftist social commentary franchise. You can see this as "communist propaganda" as much as you like, but removing the mention of capitalism criticism from the article based on your political opposition to it is simply destructive. And stop writing posts in a pile, these are not social networks, you violate the readability of the thread and complicate the answers to it. Solaire the knight (talk) 17:46, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- You're clearly new to the media, because shows critical of capitalism from big brands are so frequent that it's even a running gag. This is first. Secondly, anyone who has watched this show will obviously understand that the characters started the startup not out of love for business and capitalism, but out of necessity to save Gundam and protect the MC. This is even directly discussed in the plot. Thirdly, if you continue the edit war with such highly formal and forced excuses and a clear conflict of interest, judging by your complaints about "communist propaganda", I will demand your blocking. Solaire the knight (talk) 14:16, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
An attempt to resolve the issue
Ah, I've seen your attempt at compromise, and I want to go meet you. If the overly general "critique of capitalism" looks too vague and controversial, then I'm willing to withdraw all charges if you find any page that describes corporate monopoly or criticizes it. This will solve all the problems and I will help rewrite it.Solaire the knight (talk) 20:33, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- From episode 11 @ ~15:35:
- Miorine: “Now I have to run a company, listen to my father’s infuriating criticism, and bow my head!”
- Suletta: “I-I’m sorry!”
- Miorine: “You’re the one who doesn’t get it! Don’t you see I’m happy like this?!”
- The Benerit Group is commonly described as a conglomerate, or a collection of companies. I don't believe we know enough about the rest of the story's universe to say it's a monopoly. I recall some dialogue about trying to increase the Benerit Group's profitability and that's why they're giving the Gundam a shot because they need it. A link to conglomerates would be ok. Rstrug (talk) 01:06, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- This is literally a show about the harm that corporations bring to society from excessive influence on politics and power. The authors directly talk about this in an interview (one of the interviews even directly calls the arms race between corporations a "secret war") and the creation of the Gundam corporation as a forced way to save Suletta is directly discussed on the screen. Simply linking to some article about corporations will not change anything. This is literally and obviously criticized. As for the conglomerate, you may not be familiar with this area of fiction, Japanese gun and technologies conglomerates, in other words Zaibatsu, are the most popular metaphor for overpowered corporations in science fiction and are always depicted as a bad structure with excessive power. Also, once again I ask you to stop writing in columns. If you don't stop, I'll start correcting them into normal lines myself. It's terribly awkward to read. Solaire the knight (talk) 10:33, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Then can you link to your interview and we’ll cite it. I went through the Japanese version of this Misplaced Pages page and they don’t even mention the word “capitalism.” TV tropes mentions mega-corps, Zaibatsu and conglomerates. I’m fine with all of those. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Anime/MobileSuitGundamTheWitchFromMercury I have no idea what you’re talking about regarding “columns.” I’m hitting reply with the Misplaced Pages app. I’d rather you not edit other people’s talk page posts. Rstrug (talk) 12:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- TV Trops is not an authoritative source and is written by people like us. And with dominant left views, which is very ironic with your right bias. Moreover, if we turn a blind eye to this, both the pages of these tropes and the page of the Witch describe these organizations in a negative way. You are just wasting my time. This is literally a critique of the consequences of capitalism as it is, and your attempts to hide it under various simulacra is simply pointless. As well as the Japanese Misplaced Pages, which is not only the same section of Misplaced Pages as we are, but generally almost does not touch on the political aspects of the work. Moreover, the interview I mentioned is cited in both Japanese and English Misplaced Pages. You can click on the link and see the full version. Solaire the knight (talk) 14:07, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- You have not linked or cited an interview. Come back to reality here. If you want to leave it as it is and move on, I won't object. But it's not a critique of capitalism at all. The protagonists started a company and she said she was the happiest she's ever been. This is not a page for your head canon. It's whatever the author or the work says. Other Gundam shows have evil governments. They replace them with good governments. It's not a criticism of government. It's just the setting and the characters. Gundam in other shows will criticize war and they express this by explicitly calling for peace. Phrases that are ok: capitalism, mega-corp, Zaibatsu, conglomerates, startups, economic disparity, economic systems (there's a quote from the official website about economic systems and the economy disparity between spacians and earthians) Rstrug (talk) 17:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Government is too broad a concept and government is not an economic system, unlike capitalism. I'm tired of trying to prove and argue something, only to see later that you just ignored it. It doesn't even work according to your logic, because the setting with overpowered evil corporations is literally an anti-capitalist dystopia. It's as pointless as if you were trying to prove that an evil cult show that criticizes religious propaganda is not anti-clerical. If you continue to simply ignore those parts of the plot or article that you don’t like, choosing only what you like and repeating the changes in the article that are convenient only for you, ignoring objections, I will simply remove the compromise version and again I will demand your blocking from - for walking in circles and arguing for the sake of arguing. The characters literally discussed the creation of the company as a forced act and you can literally find the information in the article and a link to the original interview where the writers discuss the ideological content of the show. This is my last reply, further attempts to go around in circles will be regarded as destructive behavior with a corresponding request to the administrators. I warned you. Solaire the knight (talk) 19:02, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- You have not linked or cited an interview. Come back to reality here. If you want to leave it as it is and move on, I won't object. But it's not a critique of capitalism at all. The protagonists started a company and she said she was the happiest she's ever been. This is not a page for your head canon. It's whatever the author or the work says. Other Gundam shows have evil governments. They replace them with good governments. It's not a criticism of government. It's just the setting and the characters. Gundam in other shows will criticize war and they express this by explicitly calling for peace. Phrases that are ok: capitalism, mega-corp, Zaibatsu, conglomerates, startups, economic disparity, economic systems (there's a quote from the official website about economic systems and the economy disparity between spacians and earthians) Rstrug (talk) 17:11, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- TV Trops is not an authoritative source and is written by people like us. And with dominant left views, which is very ironic with your right bias. Moreover, if we turn a blind eye to this, both the pages of these tropes and the page of the Witch describe these organizations in a negative way. You are just wasting my time. This is literally a critique of the consequences of capitalism as it is, and your attempts to hide it under various simulacra is simply pointless. As well as the Japanese Misplaced Pages, which is not only the same section of Misplaced Pages as we are, but generally almost does not touch on the political aspects of the work. Moreover, the interview I mentioned is cited in both Japanese and English Misplaced Pages. You can click on the link and see the full version. Solaire the knight (talk) 14:07, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- Then can you link to your interview and we’ll cite it. I went through the Japanese version of this Misplaced Pages page and they don’t even mention the word “capitalism.” TV tropes mentions mega-corps, Zaibatsu and conglomerates. I’m fine with all of those. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Anime/MobileSuitGundamTheWitchFromMercury I have no idea what you’re talking about regarding “columns.” I’m hitting reply with the Misplaced Pages app. I’d rather you not edit other people’s talk page posts. Rstrug (talk) 12:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
- This is literally a show about the harm that corporations bring to society from excessive influence on politics and power. The authors directly talk about this in an interview (one of the interviews even directly calls the arms race between corporations a "secret war") and the creation of the Gundam corporation as a forced way to save Suletta is directly discussed on the screen. Simply linking to some article about corporations will not change anything. This is literally and obviously criticized. As for the conglomerate, you may not be familiar with this area of fiction, Japanese gun and technologies conglomerates, in other words Zaibatsu, are the most popular metaphor for overpowered corporations in science fiction and are always depicted as a bad structure with excessive power. Also, once again I ask you to stop writing in columns. If you don't stop, I'll start correcting them into normal lines myself. It's terribly awkward to read. Solaire the knight (talk) 10:33, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Suletta's VA Controversy
Should I add that Suletta's sexuality and ethnicity was never stated on the show other than a brief comment about her skin color in early creator interviews? This is true and it makes the debate about her VA somewhat pointless, but I don't want to create an original study. Also, what do you think about this in general? Do we need a separate section with a more detailed narrative here? Solaire the knight (talk) 15:16, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
- To be honest, I'm not sure if this section is WP:DUE any weight. But setting that aside, I wonder if this section (if it is due weight) would be better in the "production and release" section since the media section is usually meant for basic information about the series' release; MOS:ANIME states sections should, in general, include the original release and broadcast information, and English license and release and broadcast information where applicable. I am not sure whether this falls under "English license and release and broadcast information" as while it discussion of the casting choices, as of now it has yet to actually affect the series. Perhaps some information on casting in general should be in that section too; looking at the Japanese article, it cites this Mantan Web article, which may have some useful information. On that note, the Japanese article has quite a bit more creation information than this article does, so perhaps relevant information should be translated. Link20XX (talk) 03:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that the Japanese section is much more complete in terms of creating and developing the show. But unfortunately, what I managed to read in the past discussed her ethnic roots no more than what I quoted. Perhaps at the moment we should wait and see if this conflict will have a continuation and, accordingly, more authoritative sources. Solaire the knight (talk) 08:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)
- A little late to reply to this I know, but I don't think it needs a separate section. Suletta's ethnic heritage is a minor point at best (especially in the context of a show where most characters aren't from Earth), and has not been brought up outside of the voice actor issue so far. Even the source on Anime News Network itself is quite weak, only stating that "viewers have shared" there's an "interpretation" that "Suletta is Middle Eastern or North African-coded".
- I'm not planning on making any edits as I know there's back and forth on this and it's a touchy subject, but based on the linked source, I think even the current statement in the wiki that "Suletta Mercury is implied to have Middle Eastern or North African heritage" is quite strong for something that even the writer of the article has essentially only said is an opinion of some viewers. If it was expanded slightly (after the show concludes perhaps), maybe it should be something along the lines of this for balance:
- Some viewers feel that Suletta Mercury is implied to have Middle Eastern or North African heritage, which is supported by her father's name being Nadim Samaya, which has Arabic, Hebrew, and Indian origins (ANN reference). However, Suletta's ethnicity is never stated, other than a brief comment about her skin color in early creator interviews (with the relevant interview reference). DarkeruTomoe (talk) 21:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that the current wording is too strong. In fact, the whole thing might be UNDUE. Best, CandyScythe (talk) 10:39, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
- That is, you most likely complained about all this as an "edit war" and prevented me from removing the anonymous vandalism only because of a conflict of interest and a negative attitude towards information? Actually, as I thought. Solaire the knight (talk) 11:30, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- It looks like you were already temporarily blocked for an edit warring on this topic, which administrators upheld as "Very obvious edit warring. Content disputes are not WP:VANDALISM", so your claim that previous edits were vandalism doesn't seem to hold weight. Others in this discussion seem to feel it may not be WP:DUE any weight. You yourself said "at the moment we should wait and see if this conflict will have a continuation and, accordingly, more authoritative sources", which it doesn't seem to have.
- I'd be in favor of removal personally as it was a very minor point that essentially boils down to a few VA complaining. Though as noted, the current statement is too strong and doesn't reflect the content of the source it links to. DarkeruTomoe (talk) 11:48, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- If you blindly believe the administrators and the user, who, as it turned out, complained about the situation due to a conflict of interest, then it is possible. But in fact, it was a systematic removal of the entire section first, and when the anonymous person realized that this would not work, he proceeded to remove the most "woke" part. This is not the first time I've met this anime here, and judging by his edits from other addresses, all this is dictated by purely political reasons. For example, you can see above how they tried to remove the mention that Suletta is the first female protagonist or that the show has more or less left-wing political accents. And all this without any argument, just monotonously repeating "this does not apply to the article." But the user took advantage of the fact that during the removal of the vandalism I made more than 3 undoes (although the anonymous one did them first) and complained about it as an alleged edit war to prevent me from returning the text that he did not like. But that's enough for me, deal with it yourself. I understand that removing vandalism is punishable here. Solaire the knight (talk) 12:00, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- That is, you most likely complained about all this as an "edit war" and prevented me from removing the anonymous vandalism only because of a conflict of interest and a negative attitude towards information? Actually, as I thought. Solaire the knight (talk) 11:30, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that the current wording is too strong. In fact, the whole thing might be UNDUE. Best, CandyScythe (talk) 10:39, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that the Japanese section is much more complete in terms of creating and developing the show. But unfortunately, what I managed to read in the past discussed her ethnic roots no more than what I quoted. Perhaps at the moment we should wait and see if this conflict will have a continuation and, accordingly, more authoritative sources. Solaire the knight (talk) 08:18, 7 February 2023 (UTC)