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    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by DarrellWinkler

    Appeal declined. Seraphimblade 22:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

    To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

    Appealing user
    DarrellWinkler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction being appealed
    Topic banned from COVID-19, broadly construed
    Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear and substantial consensus of uninvolved administrators" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

    Administrator imposing the sanction
    Courcelles (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
    Notification of that administrator
    The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

    Statement by DarrellWinkler

    Requesting a rollback of protection of several articles related to the topic, when so much additional information on the topic has been published, is in no way disruptive or i violation of the editing sanctions of this topic. I would like my ban lifted. DarrellWinkler (talk) 16:12, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

    Some corrections to Courcelles above statement
    Despite the characterization that I have been pushing "an agenda for months", I have made exactly one request to have the page unprotected before today. its obvious from the talk page that my concerns are shared by a great number of editors who feel the extended protection is not warranted. The "half-year slow edit war on FCC fairness doctrine" is to stop one or two individuals from constantly removing sourced material. DarrellWinkler (talk) 17:13, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

    Statement by Courcelles

    • Interesting, the appellant brings up their recent string of RFPP filings, but not their conduct at Talk:Wuhan Institute of Virology. They’ve been trying to edit with an agenda for months, only stopped by the page being ECP. I won’t push building the case here, but there could be an argument to just indef this editor, as an AmPol2 topic ban could also be justified given edits like , , and the half-year slow edit war on FCC fairness doctrine. I considered doing so, but decided to try something more moderate first. Courcelles (talk) 16:57, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
      @ScottishFinnishRadish, the diff you link as soapboxing was the one I called out as the proximate cause to sanction in the sanction template. (Clarifying since the appellant makes this out as a response to an RFPP filing). Of course, the sentiments expressed at RFPP were problematic, but the act of asking for unprotection itself was not. Courcelles (talk) 18:02, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

    Statement by (involved editor 1)

    Statement by (involved editor 2)

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by DarrellWinkler

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Jéské Couriano

    This person strikes me as someone who's trying to needlessly and aggressively play devil's-advocate in several American-politics-related contentious topics (they have warnings for AP2, BLP, and now the topic-ban for COVID). I agree with Courcelles that this is likely best solved with an indefinite block; usually when we see people speedrunning the All CTOPs% category they've got too much of an ideological investment to collaborate or are intentionally trying to pick fights, and in either case the general remedy has been to indef them under WP:DE or WP:NOTHERE. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 17:25, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

    Statement by (uninvolved editor 2)

    Result of the appeal by DarrellWinkler

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I do not think that Courcelles erred in applying the sanction; the editor explicitly stated that they did not intend to respect consensus. As such, I think this sanction is appropriately placed to prevent disruption, and I would leave it in place. Seraphimblade 17:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
    • Concur with Seraphimblade. Looking deeper, I'm seeing a pattern of disruptive editing almost everywhere. There's soapboxing/notaforum, NPOV violation, and adding "Black" to a quote where it was not found in the source. I found those with a few moments of spot checking edits.DarrellWinkler, you must comment in your own section, not in other editors' sections or the administrative section. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:41, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
    • I agree with Seraphimblade and oppose lifting the sanction. The diffs uncovered by ScottishFinnishRadish are deeply concerning, especially the falsification of a direct quotation, and are indicative of a broader problem. Cullen328 (talk) 18:15, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
    • Normally I'm in favor of a "let's lift it for now and see what happens to figure out if it is still needed" approach to page restriction requests like this. In this case, Darrell's edits make it clear that the sanctions are still needed, or at a minimum fail to make any viable case for overturning them. If a cabal of "experienced editors" are keeping certain information out of articles (which does happen, though I haven't looked to see if it is or is not happening here), there are methods like noticeboards and WP:RFC for seeking consensus from the broader community. I also agree that this user's edits are an issue, and we should take a look into whether they're enough of a problem to warrant a boomerang here. The Wordsmith 19:05, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

    My very best wishes

    My very best wishes is blocked for two weeks for violating their topic ban under World War II and the history of Jews in Poland. Additionally, under the contentious topic procedures for Eastern Europe, they are topic-banned from the areas of World War II in Eastern Europe and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, and have been warned that further disruption may result in a full Eastern Europe TBAN without further warning. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 22:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning My very best wishes

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    PaulT2022 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 15:08, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    My very best wishes (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

    Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    1. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World_War_II_and_the_history_of_Jews_in_Poland#My_very_best_wishes_bans
    2. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World_War_II_and_the_history_of_Jews_in_Poland#Impact_on_the_Eastern_Europe_topic_area_(II)
    3. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Eastern_Europe#Contentious_topic_designation
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 9-13 June: Here, "My very best wishes", in violation of the broadly construed World War II in Poland topic ban, edits an article that discusses WWII monuments in Poland specifically, and buildings constructed by Nazi Germany and Soviet regimes in Eastern Europe more generally, edit-warring to reintroduce poorly sourced POV that has been challenged by multiple editors. (Edit-warring diffs in the comments below.)
    2. 7 June, 17 June: In another violation of the topic ban, MVBW edits an article about a slogan widely associated in the past with OUN, notable for its participation in Holocaust in Poland, and discusses whether a salute used by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, fighting in Poland during WWII, is reminiscent of the salute used by the members of OUN.
    Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

    20 May: My very best wishes was topic-banned from WWII in Poland following a previous arbitration decision.

    If contentious topics restrictions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:CTOP#Awareness of contentious topics)

    Alerted about discretionary sanctions or contentious topics in the area of conflict, on the 20 August 2022

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    This request isn't merely an attempt to formally escalate arguably marginal topic ban violations. I was involved in the recent Totalitarian architecture AfD and observed how many of the findings from the arbitration case apply to the broader area of MVBW's editing.

    Most of the Totalitarian architecture article, 64% by text, is written by MVBW. It was brought to a second AfD due to synthesis concerns. Half of the AfD participants proposed some sort of WP:TNT option, considering the article to contain synthesis. The statement that "totalitarian architecture" is an architectural style, as well as the thrust of the entire article advocating this viewpoint lacked consensus.

    Following the AfD discussion, User:Paragon Deku rewritten the article on 24 May to rectify concerns expressed by the AfD participants.

    Failing to achieve consensus (for "Style of architecture in totalitarian states" - see AfD, for "officially approved... international style" - see AfD and Talk:Totalitarian_architecture#Recent_changes_(WP:OR)), MVBW resorted to edit warring to restore their original claims from 14 July 2021 on 9 June 2023 and again, after being reverted by SnowFire, on 11-13 June 2023

    This led to Paragon Deku expressing a feeling of burnout on 14 June 2023 after an evident failure of dispute resolution processes.

    There were also multiple instances of edit warring to keep the preferred POV in the article prior to the MVBW's topic ban, for example:

    1. 17 July 2021, 7 May 2023
    2. 23 July 2021, 24 July 2021
    3. 13 July 2021, 20 July 2021, 21 July 2021, 21 July 2021

    I'm bringing up the broader pattern of the MVBW's editing for review as the MVBW's topic ban, in addition to apparently being disregarded by repeated attempts to test its boundaries, failed to improve the editing and talk page behaviour of MVBW in the wider EE topic area, and urging administrators to consider an appropriate enforcement action taking the "Impact on the Eastern Europe topic area (II)" remedy into account.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Special:Diff/1161414284

    Discussion concerning My very best wishes

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by My very best wishes

    Please accept my apology for topic ban violation on page Slava Ukraine. That was unintentional, and I realized it was a topic ban violation only 4 days after my edit. How did it happen?
    1. When I came to edit this page on June 2, it existed in this version. It did not mention Poland anywhere and seemed to be a purely Ukrainian subject. Hence, I thought it was safe for me to edit.
    2. Then, immediately after my edit, Marcelus makes this edit , with edit summary added more information of the usage of the greeting by OUN, OUN-B, UPA, and regular Ukrainians especially during the WW2. In this edit, Marcelus included new text that appears in the diff by ScottishFinnishRadish, i.e. “After the creation in the second half of 1942, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) took over the salute from the OUN-B, but dropped the fascist-like raising of the right arm above the head…” and so on.
    3. I started making various changes in the new version by Marcelus, one of which was indeed a topic ban violation as appears in the diff by ScottishFinnishRadish. I did not realize it was a violation at the moment of making the edit because I perceived it per description in the edit summary by Marcelus, i.e. a material about Ukrainian nationalist organizations (OUN, etc.). That was my mistake.
    • To avoid such missteps in the future, I will stay away not only of any pages/content related to Poland during WWI| or Jewish history, but also of any contributors (such as Marcelus) who are focused on editing in this area, because they include such content “on the fly” to many pages they edit (as in this case).
    • Speaking about the broad ban from all EE subjects, I understand the concern by admins here (i.e. I might commit a similar topic ban violation in a future), but I am confident I will be able to avoid it. If you check my edit history, nearly all my edits during last several years were in EE area. If such wide topic ban will be enacted, I still will be able to participate in the project, but much less than I would participate otherwise.
    Here is my additional response about page Totalitarian architecture
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
    I made one revert on this page per WP:BRD: . After some objections were raised by SnowFire , I did the following:
    1. I suggested to make some new changes at the article talk page and waited a couple of days for response . Given no objections on the article talk page at the time, I implemented the suggested changes using version by SnowFire as current/initial version .
    2. Here is the series of new changes I made. Do they qualify as a violation of my topic ban? First of all, I did not even change anything related to WWII or modern day Poland (at the bottom of the diff). More important, there is nothing out there about WWII in Poland, which is the subject of the topic ban. My very best wishes (talk) 15:36, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
    My apology if my statement (copied from above) was not clear enough; and I am ready to answer additional questions if any. My very best wishes (talk) 18:09, 27 June 2023 (UTC) Copied from User talk:My very best wishes. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:24, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

    Statement by Marcelus

    As the MVBW edition was about the changes I made to the article and the ongoing discussion between us, I feel obliged to add some context. I have a full understanding of why MVBW made this change in the belief that he was not breaking their ban. In the discussion the topic of "Poland and World War II" was almost completely absent, my edits and discussion were about the whole history of the greeting and its use primarily in the pre-war period. Mainly its use by Ukrainian nationalist organizations. Of course, probably MVBW should have been a bit more careful, but by engaging in an article at first glance completely unrelated to the topic of "Poland and World War II" they understandably lowered their guard more than they would have if they had edited something closer to that topic.Marcelus (talk) 22:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

    Statement by Adoring nanny

    A rule like "stay away from topic X" seems like a difficult one to follow. I should know as I once screwed that up myself, though I also noticed my mistake more quickly than MVBW appears to have done. Avoiding articles about topic X is step one. But, as happened both in my case and the case of MVBW, there is the additional problem of avoiding it when topic X comes up in an article about something else. One establishes a mental filter, which is a step in the right direction. But having such a filter engaged at all times is more difficult. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:40, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

    Statement by Shibbolethink

    I'd like to say something here, as someone uninvolved in the area who has interacted with MVBW elsewhere (always civil disagreement, but usually disagreement). I understand where admins below are coming from saying the TBAN should be broadened, but I think it would be excessive and punitive in effect. I think a block of 1 month is more than enough.

    The holocaust in Poland area was a huge pile of flaming trash, and Misplaced Pages dropped the ball on many LTAs who received either no sanctions or too lenient ones. I followed the Arb case from the side lines and I completely agree with the recommendation to be very firm with future sanctions, to increase normal durations, etc. Misplaced Pages had a big issue here, and AC needed to make a strong statement on what our standards are. That impulse is absolutely justified, and usually well-served, but I think may be running a bit too far here.

    I think User:Barkeep49 below made a good point that I want to underline: For many of the editors sanctioned in the case this would argue for more strict enforcement. Given the previous lack of blocks/enforcement against MVBW I think it's fair to say that a first offense of this topic ban not be treated as severely as a first time offense for other parties to the case. My understanding of the Arb recc for longer blocks was to stymie the impression that LTAs would be granted any further leniency in this situation. MVBW, on the other hand, is not really a "long-term abuser" in this area, not in the sense other parties were. I would have considered them a prime candidate to get their TBAN lifted in 6 months or a year, frankly. A 2 week or 1 month block is a sufficient "shot across the bow" to demonstrate the importance of following their WWII-Poland TBAN.

    TBANning from the entirety of EE would be punitive, rather than preventative. Consider MVBW in total. Their edits in this area are most likely due to having eastern European heritage and some subject-matter knowledge. I understand the problems with their edits in the Holocaust subsection. But I have seen no evidence of such problems elsewhere. I see no evidence of malice or intent in this TBAN violation. Many of their edits in the area overall are of high quality. My impression is that if such a broadened "all EE" TBAN were to be enacted, it would substantially curb MVBW's ability to enjoy and contribute positively to the project, without preventing much, if any, disruption. That, to me, is the very definition of punishment for the sake of it, rather than to prevent problems.

    I think the message from a 1 month block is perfectly clear: be more careful of your TBAN, MVBW. This is an early stage warning. It gets worse from here.— Shibbolethink 16:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

    Statement by (editor)

    Result concerning My very best wishes

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • I've blocked for one week as this is an unambiguous topic ban violation. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:30, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
      Given the unambiguous nature of the violation and how recent the case was? That was very, very lenient. Courcelles (talk) 17:24, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
      I tend to fall on the lenient side when there is a discussion open. Now we have a week to form a consensus while they're already blocked.
      I checked their block log and saw that they didn't have any history of blocks, so although this was soon after the case I felt that starting the standard 1 week -> 1 month -> 3 month escalation was reasonable. I'm not tied down to that, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
      This case has a special enforcement provision, though, allowing even initial blocks to be up to a year. And we’re basically under directive from Arbcom to drop the hammer in this topic area. It’s such a flagrant violation that I’d be ready to just topic ban from Eastern Europe entirely. Courcelles (talk) 18:01, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
      Sorry for the delay getting back to this, was pretty tied up over the weekend. The special enforcement provision says Administrators placing blocks should take into account an editor's overall conduct and Arbitration history and seriously consider increasing the duration of blocks. As far as I can tell, the only conduct of MVBW's that made the final decision was specifically about their conduct in relation to the case: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/World War II and the history of Jews in Poland#My very best wishes' conduct during the case, and they had only a single self-requested block.
      I'm leaning towards Valereee's thinking, and I think one week blocked and a warning that the next violation comes with an expanded topic ban and a much longer block is probably sufficient. I don't have an issue with bumping the block to 30 days and giving a final logged warning, either, as that seems closer to where the consensus rests, splitting the difference and ending up at Tamzin. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      @Courcelles, Tamzin, Seraphimblade, and Valereee:, extend block to 30 days, logged warning that any further violations will be met with a 90 day block (triggering the Arbcom review provision) and a full EE topic ban? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      I don't think there's a need to specify how long the next block might be, especially since not all EE violations would fall under the HJP review clause. But otherwise I support this. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 17:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      Just to provide my thinking...the editor has apologized, stated they realize they made a mistake, and have come up with a plan to avoid making the same mistake again. I don't see the point in extending the block. But I can see I'm by far in the minority here, and I trust the judgement of others here. Valereee (talk) 17:18, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      Given the time stamp of that diff, and MYBW only changing their tune about their topic ban violation after the first mentions of serious sanctions dropping here, I do not believe this to be sufficient. After getting topic banned directly by the committee last month? I’m not being particularly charitable here, but I am very unimpressed with how they responded initially. Courcelles (talk) 17:20, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      It's definitely not my first choice. If the consensus here is to go with that as a sort of compromise solution, I suppose I'm not categorically opposed, but I think we should be clear that we are not messing around here, so I would still at least as a first choice stand by what I first said. Seraphimblade 18:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      If we're at a 2–2–1 split here as to what is best in keeping with ArbCom's intent, should this just be referred to ARCA? -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 18:52, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      I don't really think so. We've figured stuff like this out before, and the facts aren't terribly complex. If SFR's solution is at least somewhat okay with everyone, even if not ideal for them, then that might be what it ends up being. Seraphimblade 18:55, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      I don't want to go to ARCA. I want us to figure this out. As Seraphimblade says, it's not complex. It's just that it's kind of new to us, but we really do need to figure out for ourselves how to deal with these. (Full disclosure: Also as someone who has been arguing for leniency, I don't think ARCA will lean in that direction.) Valereee (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      Okay… spitballing here in terms of what we can do and maybe agree on. Make the block a fortnight and expand the topic ban to World War II and the history of Jews in Eastern Europe, rather than just Poland. That could be enough to unambiguously cordon off this area and draw a line that further misconduct will not be tolerated. (Essentially replacing Poland in the current topic ban with Eastern Europe). The message, either logged or just delivered here, is that the entire EE area goes, at a minimum, if MVBW violates this. Courcelles (talk) 19:38, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      I'm okay with that. Seraphimblade 19:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      Likewise. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 19:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      Okay with that. Valereee (talk) 20:59, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      Concur. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:27, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
    • I also take ArbCom's remedies as a directive to tend strongly toward the upper end of reasonable sanctions. I would support a one-month block under HJP and, under ARBEE, either a TBAN from Eastern Europe or a logged only-warning, with instructions to future admins to TBAN without further warning if disruption recurs. -- Tamzin (she|they|xe) 21:55, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
    • If being directly topic banned by ArbCom isn't warning enough, I don't think a logged warning from us is going to do any better. Given that and the blatant nature of the violation, I would not support anything short of a topic ban from the Eastern Europe area entirely, and also wouldn't object to lengthening the block to a month. Seraphimblade 03:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
      I will note, though, that MVBW made some statements on their user talk page while blocked, and was blocked early in this process, so I've asked them if they want to make that statement here. While I do support sanctions at this time, and I don't see that as likely to change, I don't think we should sanction someone if they haven't had any opportunity to even tell their side of the story. Seraphimblade 22:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
    • I like to interpret these kinds of vios very leniently, especially in early days. Let's give this editor a little learning room. Valereee (talk) 02:04, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
      I think the committee was crystal clear about our jaundiced opinion of giving established users in this topic area "a little learning room". -- Guerillero 14:35, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      Yes, you really, unambiguously were. Courcelles (talk) 14:45, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
      I agree with what @Guerillero writes (and Courcelles agrees to) and if I'd thought of saying it like that I'd have replied to Valereee when I first saw it. I will also note, at least for me, Administrators placing blocks should take into account an editor's overall conduct matters. For many of the editors sanctioned in the case this would argue for more strict enforcement. Given the previous lack of blocks/enforcement against MVBW I think it's fair to say that a first offense of this topic ban not be treated as severely as a first time offense for other parties to the case. What that means is something I'm very happy to leave to the discretion of admins here. Barkeep49 (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2023 (UTC)