Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Onlytofind (talk | contribs) at 23:25, 29 March 2005 (→Flip side of the coin). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Restored page from obvious POV edit unfairly favoring the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

I'm a member, and I think that quote describes the INC succintly and perfectly. It has created its share of controversy, and mainly focuses on discrediting Presbyterian and Catholic ideology.

Does this part sound NPOV? "Noted for its distinctive church architecture of narrow pointed spires, it is a controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the predominant religion in the country."

"and many say that the Church administration was told to stop by Internal Revenue Service agents": sounds like a rumor to me. Isn't this supposed to be an encyclopedia?

Just Church of Christ

I think there is some confusion here. Unless this is talking about a different group, Iglesia ni Christo is just "Church of Christ" in another language. This article sounds like it more or less describes the Church of Christ, with some confusion from people who probably don't understand it. The Church of Christ was certainly not established in the Philippines! 69.148.82.46 17:29, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The name Iglesia Ni Cristo specifically refers to the organization created by Felix Y. Manalo.

Two Points

First of all, this group is an indigenous Filipino group and is not identical to the Church of Christ of the American Restoration Movement, which also has a major mission work in the Philippines, adding to confusion regarding the two groups. Also, both claim to be nothing more than just the continuation or restoration of the original church established by Jesus Christ; whether either group or any such group has the actual right to claim such a thing must be of needs left to a higher Authority than myself, or Misplaced Pages.

Second, yes, the name is no more than "Church of Christ" in Tagalog (Filipino).

Rlquall 23:59, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Disestablishment"

This term needs to be cut from the article in my opinion as well. This improperly implies that the Catholic Church is officially recognized in the Republic of the Philippines as the state religion, which I do not believe to be the case. "Disestablishment" is a term of art meaning to abolish a denomination's status as an official state church. Perhaps the terms "disprove" or "dispute" should be used instead? Rlquall 00:07, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Perteinence

Does it matter that much whether a Filipino-centered group has 501(c)(3) status in the U.S. or not, or whether it endorses candidates in U.S. elections to make that a focus of the article or even merit a mention. Obviously there are Filipinos in the U.S., including members of this group, as there are in almost every country in the world, but is this really worth mentioning in an encyclopeida article about this group? Also, the alleged resemblance between its buildings and LDS buildings should either be demonstrated with (noncopyrighted) pictures or deleted IMO. Rlquall 00:02, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This article is biased

It's quite difficult to understand the INC by just leaning on what you see on the internet. While this article tries to be NPOV, certain points suggest the authors' bias against the INC:

• suggestion that the INC is a cult ("some say...")
  • Removed. INC is more of a sect than a cult. The only factor which makes it a cult is the chrurch admin's power over it's congregation. --Lbmixpro 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
• suggestion that the INC's chapels are copied from LDS chapels (again, "some say...")
  • Not all INC locales have narrow pointed spires. Other churches may also have spires. --Lbmixpro 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)
• suggestion that the INC tries to meddle with US politics ("it has tried...")
  • The INC does influence voters.
• questioning the supposed "questionable move" of publishing congratulatory messages from American political leaders
• suggestion that the INC sacrifices church unity in exchange for a tax-exempt status ("many say...")
  • It would help if someone provides sources of this. --Lbmixpro 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

• Even publishing a magazine titled "God's Message" did not escape this absurd piece of "factual" junk. "Found controversial by some"?!?
  • Removed. I don't see any implications of the authors of God's Message as written from God. --Lbmixpro 18:45, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

I respectfully suggest that this article be placed in a disputed status.

• The article doesn't show an outright NPOV, so it's been put under "Biased" status.

Corrected Description

by gcessor

I tried to edit the description as is described below, but apparently the biased information could not be removed. Will those who have such access please examine the corrections suggested below in order to be more closely aligned with the Misplaced Pages policy of NPOV, and make the appropriate corrections?

Removed following: "it is a sometimes controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the predominant religion in it's founding country." Misplaced Pages's editorial policy is the "neutral point of view", often abbreviated "NPOV". Therefore, the information that is included about the INC should not revolve mainly around one particular issue (as with the information left by the previous author) but should either simply describe the INC or, if one believes that controversy must be included, then an equal amount of complementary material must be included. Otherwise, the information included cannot follow the Misplaced Pages's editorial policy of NPOV.

Removed "it is a sometimes controversial organization that seeks to disestablish the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church, which is the predominant religion in it's founding country"

The stated aim of the INC is not to 'disestablish' the Catholic church, but to spread the Gospel throughout the world. It is true that the INC opposes the Catholic church, but that is part of the doctrine but is NOT the 'aim' or purpose of the INC.

Changed "founded by Felix Manalo on July 27, 1914" to "registered with the Filipino government by Felix Manalo on July 27, 1914".

Changed "The Iglesia ni Cristo has grown to more than two hundred congregations in over 84 countries outside the Philippines." to "The Iglesia ni Cristo has grown to thousands of congregations within the Philippines and more than two hundred congregations in over 84 countries and territories outside the Philippines."

The above change was to give a better picture of the INC inside and outside the Philippines.

Changed "estimates place worldwide membership to 6 million" to "estimates of worldwide membership range from 3 to 10 million".

Reference found at: http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_314.html

Changed "for whichever candidate the church administrators decide in Philippine elections" to "in accordance with the guidance of the church administration in Philippine elections".

Changed "The Manila media credit the INC" to "Some Manila media credit the INC", for not all Manila media give such credit to the INC.

Deleted the following:

"It has tried to present itself on numerous occasions as being a strong political force in the United States as well. The Iglesia ni Cristo used to distribute a list of supported candidates to members before an election, along with a lesson usually the Sunday before a major election emphasizing unity to the Church administration."

and

"During the mid-1990's it published letters in the "God's Message" magazine from various American political leaders congratulating the INC on its anniversary, with a short article talking about the growth of the INC in America which led to such recognition. That was found to an extremely questionable move, on both its motives and origins, since one does not necessarily have to be the leader of a large organization to receive a form letter with preprinted signature that are available to anyone on request from an elected official's representative office to celebrate a birthday, anniversary or similar occasion."

and

"Support of political candidates and organizations by non-profit organizations are illegal under IRS Section 501(c)3 rules, and it's been rumored that the Church administration was told to stop by Internal Revenue Service agents under penalty of having their tax-exempt status revoked. Before the presidential election of 2000, the Iglesia Ni Cristo shocked many by saying that it would not endorse anyone and has not publically endorsed any candidate in a U.S election since."

These are not unbiased statements. It seems the author is more interested in pointing out what he believes to be wrong with the INC and is including statements and opinions that belong on a forum rather than in an UNBIASED description in an encyclopedia.

Changed ""The Pasugo" is the INC's monthly magazine who's title translates to "The Message" in English." to "The Pasugo" is the INC's monthly magazine. The title translates to "The Message" in English." to conform with standard rules of the English language. "Who's" is a contraction of 'who is', and the author's sentence would then read "...monthly magazine who is title translates...", which makes no sense.

Removed "In the U.S, it is called "God's Message". It used to be distributed free to all, but since the mid-1990's, the INC asks members and to "donate" or pay for each copy they receive while distributing it free to non-members."

The author is apparently unaware that for the past several years the Pasugo has been free to all members and non-members.

Changed "are that:" to "are:". The word "that" is unnecessary.

Changed "Christ was a man sent by God as a mediator" to "Christ was a man sent by God as the only mediator" to more correctly present the INC's doctrine.

Changed "Each organization has monthly meetings (on average) and there, relays messages from the administration and seeks to increase fellowship and unity between members." to "Each organization has monthly meetings (on average) wherein messages are relayed from the administration in order to increase fellowship and unity between members."

Removed: "and great-grandson Sebastian B. Manalo" since Sebastian Manalo is neither the executive minister or one of the deputies thereof.

and

Changed "is currently being administered by the founder's heirs, Felix Manalo's son, Erano G. Manalo, grandson, Eduardo V. Manalo" to "is currently being administered by Erano G. Manalo and Eduardo V. Manalo, who are the son and grandson of Felix Y. Manalo, respectively."

The author seems to have wanted to imply nepotism on the part of the INC administration by using 'heirs' and then redundantly using 'son', 'grandson', and 'great-grandson'. That is not in accordance with the Misplaced Pages's policy of NPOV.

Changed the list of links from: Examine Iglesia Ni Cristo INC Pasugo Online

to

Pro: INC Pasugo Online (Note - the above website is currently inactive, so the following website is listed for further information until the official INC website is once more online: )

Con: Examine Iglesia Ni Cristo

Standard form in English in such instances is to list 'pro' before 'con', and it is appropriate to show which reference takes which view.

Vast Improvment

I don't know if it is still all that biased with all of the current improvements. The stuff about how its buildings resembled LDS, supposed electoral/IRS skullduggery in the U.S., and things like that really needed to go in the absence of great corraborative sources, and I'm glad to see that they have. Also the term "disestablish", which is now well gone since the Catholic Church is the predominant religion in the Philippines, not the established (governmentally-supported) one. Anyone feel free to remove the "bias" template at this point? Rlquall 22:22, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

BIAS Removal, and suggestion

I noticed that most of the biased portions have been removed, making it a down the middle article. But, I feel it's still incomplete. Should this article summarize the twenty eight doctrines of INC? I'm replacing the Bias Boilerplate, with an Attention one.

Why not make the changes I listed? (by gcessor)

I pointed out errors and obvious bias, yet now the article is as it was when I first saw it.

Please tell me why the errors and obvious bias are still there.

Reply

As far as I see on my computer, the edits you made are still in the article. You may still have the old copy in your cache, so reloading (press F5 on your keyboard) may bring up the newer version.

When I found the article, it had 3 different versions of the article posted on the same page. The first top one was the original before your edits, the second and third ones were the edit you put. After noticing this, I erased the first and second copies, and left the third one -the one I assumed was the latest- in the article, before I added the links to other parts of Misplaced Pages, because the other copies had the links and formatting omitted. Misplaced Pages's servers were not working properly the other night, so that my be a factor as well. --Lbmixpro 05:59, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV issues

Glenn Cessor is not a Neutral Voice in this Matter

I would like to point out that Glenn Cessor is a member and deacon in the Iglesia Ni Cristo and that the moderators should take that into mind when deciding what edits are valid.

• Since he's a higher member of INC, he has a working knowlege about how INC works. Although he's a member, he (like everybody else) needs to follow the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. --LBMixPro 01:50, Mar 28, 2005 (UTC)
• Hello, I was behind most of the "doubtful evidence" posted, and I apologize that I am not able to give more corroborating proof to my story. I have known Glenn from my experiences on message boards regarding the Iglesia Ni Cristo, and even in Glenn's suggested edits, he wants to remove provable facts about the Iglesia Ni Cristo which he or other Church officials might not want others to know. I, myself have served in different offices of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, but left due to a disagreement over its teachings. I will stay on to make sure all positive and negative factual evidence about the INC remains in this article, and I pledge to adhere to the NPOV.--Onlytofind 06:59, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Please also tell me, LBMixPro, if you agree with me or Glenn regarding the policy of donations in regards to the Church magazine.
  • I only made it as far as indoctee. They told me when I first asked about the Pasugo that it isn't free, but they gave me a copy because it was my first. I'm not sure why that's so. Doesn't our offerings pay for that? But that's besides the point. Mentioning ways of obtaining the Pasugo is trivial to say the least. But the section about the government causing change in how a church works is important enough for mention. The only thing which prevents it from appearing is the lack of evidence. If there's a document which can be linked, it would most definetly be back up. --LBMixPro 05:49, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
  • Why does it have to matter? I can disagree with any religious organization's policies, but that doesn't mean I have to be biased by discussing in length what's wrong with them. You can discuss your "disagreement over its teachings" somewhere else, and not in an encyclopedia. -- ealva
    • If you do not understand the context of my question, than do not reply. I was asking whether the moderator agreed with Glenn when he said that the magazines were free, or with me when I said that the Church required a donation. He has been a member of the Church, so he can determine which one of us is speaking the truth. --Onlytofind 19:28, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • I'm stating the obvious: Why discuss whether the magazine is paid for or not? Does payment (or non-payment) of the magazine reflect statements of facts with regards to the INC? Won't it suffice to say that a magazine is published? Ealva 20:23, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
        • Are you asking if mentioning donations for the Pasugo important enough for Misplaced Pages? My answer; probably not. --LBMixPro 05:49, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Onlytofind is not a Neutral Voice in this Matter

I'm sorry I have to state this, but judging from Onlytofind's previous statements, he seems to have an "axe to grind" against the INC and I respectfully suggest that the moderator also take that in mind regarding his edits. Ealva 17:54, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• I would be surprised if anyone takes you seriously after your two nonsensical "contributions" to this thread. I've agreed to stop my bias, but your pro-INC bias is clearly evident. --Onlytofind 19:41, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• Judging from your "contributions" to the article itself, I doubt if anyone will take you seriously either. Yes, you said you'll stop your bias, but that still remains to be seen. Ealva 20:36, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
• I will now refrain from arguing with you, but I pledge to adhere to NPOV, and I hope you do too.--Onlytofind 03:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On NPOV, errata, and dirty laundry

Onlytofind should understand that an unbiased description of an organization does NOT require the inclusion of what detractors of that organization believe to be its 'dirty laundry', particularly when there is evidence that shows otherwise. The composition of the page is now close enough as far as I am concerned, and I will not further edit it as it presently stands - even though it is not completely correct. FYI, errors are as follows:

1 - The magazine "Pasugo" is no longer named 'Pasugo', but "God's Message", is printed bilingually (English and Pilipino), and (on a quarterly basis) includes locations and points-of-contact (but not schedules) of Worship Services.

2 - "Until 2000, the INC would also distribute a list of supported candidates for American elections" should read "After 1996, the INC would also..." since 1996 was the last year in which the practice was followed in America.

3 - "the church, registered with the Filipino government by Felix Manalo on July 27, 1914, claims to have been established by Jesus Christ in the last days" would be more correct as "the church, registered with the Filipino government by Felix Manalo on July 27, 1914, claims to be the true Church that Jesus Christ established in the first century A.D., that the church established by Jesus completely apostatized at some point after the death of the apostles, and that the church reemerged in the last days prophesied in the Revelation of John." This description is closer to what we believe.

Furthermore, 'Onlytofind' believes the INC still asks members to pay for their copies of the "God's Message" magazine, and thinks I am lying when I say that we no longer do so. Please look at my quote again: "The author is apparently unaware that for the past several years the Pasugo has been free to all members and non-members." Those with good reading comprehension of the English language would see the statement (1) strongly implies that at one point we DID pay for the magazine (and we did), and (2) clearly states that we do not do so NOW, and have not done so for several years. 'Onlytofind' is not a member, and so is not in any position to state with certainty whether payment is made for the magazines. His statement was correct concerning the mid-to-late 90's, but is not correct _now_ .

If, as 'Onlytofind' believes, what I posted is in violation of NPOV policy, I would invite him to describe how so - if not here, then he (or she) can e-mail me at quirinoavenue@yahoo.com. If 'Onlytofind' knows me from the forums, then he also knows that many "provable facts" (as he calls them) are hardly provable, but often fall under the old saying that false accusations become 'facts' if enough people believe them - even when the evidence shows clearly otherwise (as with his belief concerning payment for the magzine).

Lastly, I invite the moderators to call any of the locales listed at http://www28.brinkster.com/gliponeonline/church_skedusa.html and ask them if members are required to pay for the magazine (and I make the same invitation to 'Onlytofind'), and determine for themselves who here is more closely describing the Iglesia ni Cristo. The moderators can e-mail me for a copy of the magazine as well, and I'll be glad to send one. gcessor

My Reply to Mr. Cessor

1. I already apologized for the POV view. What more would you like me to do? I want to make sure that this article is free of POV, and contains all provable facts about the INC, favorable and non-favorable. I do know you from the forums though, we have talked a few times.

2. I resigned in 2003 after 23 years membership from a locale on the West Coast of the USA, and from around 1995 until my resignation, I distinctly remember the finance office having envelopes next to the Pasugos when one would pick them up, and the Church asking for a donation of at least $2.50 for each one we pick up which we would put in the offering boxes. It was distributed free to guests at Bible Expositions and Grand Evangelical Missions though. I never said I was in favor or against the practice, many people understand that magazines are expensive to print and that donations keep it free so that as many non-members can receive copies if they like.

• If you have actually seen a copy of God's Message, you'd have to agree that the magazines look expensive, compared to material by Salvation Army and Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm glad they at least have it open for anyone now. --LBMixPro 06:07, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Once again, I respectfully ask the moderator if he agrees with Glenn, that is that we didn't pay, or if he agrees with my post that we had to make a donation. At least in my locale, we did. Perhaps different policies in the different ecclesiastical districts?

3. The last practice of distributing a vote list was in 1998 at my locale, for a statewide election. We did not receive a vote list in 2000 or 2002.

• If only there's another INC member who agrees. I haven't been there long enough to participate in a vote related activity. --LBMixPro 06:07, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

4. Your work is appreciated in trying to make this article more neutral, and I will concur that you have. But talking about the apostasy doctrine and "that the Church was prophesied by John" tilts the article into more of a pro-INC status. And about the deletion of how the INC wants to discredit the Catholic Church: The INC has never been shy about their desire to discredit the Catholic Church (which I am not a member of), as seen through their indoctrinal lessons about the Pope and how they believe that they are the prophesied "Babylon" in the Bible.

• Isn't that mentioned in one of the 28 doctrines? As a matter of fact, if someone can write a summary of the 28 doctorines, it could justify all that deleted portion of the article. --LBMixPro 06:07, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

5. It is difficult to find factual information about the INC online, and it's difficult to meet people who know the workings of the INC without a strong pro-INC or anti-INC stance. Since you, ealva and I know the operations of the Church, I hope that we can maintain neutrality and factuality in this article, without it being biased against the INC, or turning into a pro-INC article.

6. I agree that the core doctrines of the INC need to be posted in this article or at least a supplementary article.

As God is my witness, I stand behind the statements I have made above. If I make any edits which anyone disputes the NPOV of, please tell me here. Thank you.

I think the way the article stands as I write is the closest to NPOV status it has been in its history, and factual enough to stand as is. If you believe that there are any problems here, please help us out by telling us what. --Onlytofind 03:27, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Flip side of the coin

1. Again, you are concerned about 'provable facts', and presumably you are referring to the violation of U.S. law by endorsing candidates. I wish that you could have looked a bit deeper, into the 'why' rather than only the 'whether'. Picture this - in country X, there are several thousand people of a certain religious denomination, very few of whom were born there, and even fewer of whom have a deep knowledge of the laws there. The ministers of that religious denomination are all trained in a college outside of the United States. The members and ministers come to country X and see how politically active religious organizations are (like a major denomination who refused communion to a presidential candidate because he supported the legal right of abortion)...and you are surprised and offended that the denomination in question did not know that it was illegal for religious denominations to endorse candidates? Even more significantly, once the administration of that denomination is informed that such endorsements are illegal, what did they do?

Ignorance of the law is no excuse, goes the saying. But every 'Christian' religion you care to name in America does everything BUT endorse political candidates, usually by saying DON'T vote for these candidates...leaving no choice as to whom they believe is the right one. The 'religious right' in America therefore violates the SPIRIT, if not the LETTER, of the law.

The Iglesia ni Cristo, on the other hand, now that we have been made aware of the law (I was born here, and I never heard fo the law until two years ago!), violates NEITHER the spirit nor the letter, for the administration says _nothing_ at all concerning any political candidates at all.

So who, indeed, should you be complaining about?

• The Iglesia Ni Cristo has been in the United States since 1966, with their first locale in Honolulu, Hawaii. Would it not be fair to assume that the IRS would have at least given them a copy of the laws regarding tax-exempt religious organizations? I distinctly remember in 1992 and 1996, the INC pledged its support behind one Presidential candidate, and lessons were read during that time in regards to uniting with the administration. That was 28 and 30 years later, are you telling me that there wasn't an U.S INC administration official who knew about this law?

• Suppose I did not vote for the supported candidate of the INC? Wouldn't that mean I would be expelled for "not uniting with the administration", just like those who chose not to support Marcos back in 1986? If so, that is in violation of the IRS laws.

• As for your discussion about the candidate in 2004, it was well within the rights of the local archdiocese to choose whether to give him communion or not due to his belief of abortion. Some did choose to give him communion though. Aside from the other major candidate, there are also other candidates who choose not to support abortion. The INC has never explained the motives behind their endorsements though.

• Although others might be violating the law, is that really an excuse? Let's keep in mind that neither of us know for sure why the INC stopped endorsing candidates and those who do know probably won't tell us.

2. We stopped charging for Pasugos, in 2002 if I remember correctly. That's why I posted a link to the points-of-contact so that you could call and verify it for yourself.

• I left in mid-2003, and at that time, we still had donation envelopes for Pasugos in our finance office.

3. Yours is the first I've heard of the INC being involved in any state elections whatsoever. I'd never heard that from anyone else. Please note that I'm not calling you a liar.

• I pledge that is the truth, and I can tell you the candidates that were endorsed.

4. Yes, we are against the Catholic church - but the definition listed our AIM to be to 'disestablish the doctrines' of the RCC, which is NOT TRUE. Our AIM is to spread the Gospel. If you want to include in the definition that we believe the RCC to be the harlot in Revelation, I have no problem with that...but you must be careful to understand the difference between (a) our AIM and (b) a PART of our doctrine.

When it comes to listing what we believe about the apostasy, how, exactly, is that in violation of NPOV? I said that is what we BELIEVE, but I did not list the evidence for it, did I?

5 and 6. If you want to post what you understand to be the core doctrines of the INC, then chances are this is going to turn into a forum of sorts...which is not the purpose of the Misplaced Pages. IMO, the wiser path is to keep the definition as brief as possible, and include the links to the pro and con websites.

• I concur that it might sound POV, but hasn't the INC focused many of their lessons to explain why they disagree with Catholic teachings? I haven't seen many on other religions, except for the "divided house on Protestantism". I think that your apostasy explanation can be included as NPOV, if it is more strongly worded that it is a belief of INC and that it believes this way due to this verse for example.

• The core doctrines would be taken from an official INC source, granted it is permitted to quote their work here, to avoid POV. If not, then I concur we should keep the definition as brief as possible.

Best regards.--Onlytofind 23:25, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)