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Revision as of 16:58, 29 August 2023 by MaliMail (talk | contribs) (→Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 August 2023: new section)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Turkey article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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 faq page Frequently asked questions
Q: Why don't you rename this article Türkiye or Turkiye, the correct name for this country? A: Because the English language Misplaced Pages has a WP:COMMONNAME policy. We use names for countries and places that are the names commonly used for them in English, regardless of what official organizations use. Technically, this kind of name is known as an exonym. For example, we use the name Germany, instead of the native endonym Deutschland. If or when that general English language usage changes (as has happened in the past with place names such as Mumbai and Beijing), the same WP:COMMONNAME policy implies that the English language Misplaced Pages will necessarily also follow suit. So far, that hasn't happened. This has been discussed many times, with the same result every time because of the common name policy. Latest discussion. Q: Why is officially the Republic of Türkiye used in the first sentence? A: Because this will make it clear "Türkiye" is official while still using the common colloquial for the article title. This will give readers a quick spelling reference for research purposes. Latest discussion. Q: If this is the country then where's the article for Turkey food? for Turkey bird? Or other "Turkey"-related things? A: We cover Turkey meat as another article, as well as Turkey (bird) for the bird, and other Turkey-related topics separately by other articles, see Turkey (disambiguation). |
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Guidelines for editing the Turkey article
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Discussion about use of "Türkiye" in flag templates
This discussion may be of interest to editors at this page. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:04, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
- As a follow-up to that discussion, I nominated the redirect {{Country data Türkiye}}, which displays as
Türkiye, for deletion in this discussion. It may be possible to edit the redirect such that it displays "Turkey" instead of "Türkiye" if that is desirable. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:01, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- The discussion was closed as "Keep", so if you don't want this name to appear next to Turkish flags in articles, you're on your own to find and fix them manually. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2023
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In infobox, change "assembly speaker" to "speaker of the assembly" and "chief judge" to "chief justice" for consistency with other country articles. 31.223.50.10 (talk) 11:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Xan747 (talk) 21:12, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- I think these are the official names. Edward-Woodrow :) 14:15, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Official translations are "Speaker of the Grand National Assembly of Türkiye" and "President of the Constitutional Court" Also in Misplaced Pages they're called Speaker of the Grand National Assembly and President of the Constitutional Court too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.223.44.135 (talk) 19:40, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Done - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 19:46, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Adding Emblem of Turkey into to the infobox since the country does not have a coat of arms.
I’m proposing to add the Emblem of Turkey into the infobox as on German Misplaced Pages. What are your thoughts on this? If it’s ok, can someone do this change? Thanks. P.S. I found two designs of emblems on Wikimedia; the first one is used in almost every official documents and the second one is used mostly in diplomatic missions of Turkey. 176.55.148.165 (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
Unnecessary as it's basically the exact same thing as the flag. That's just my opinion though. - AquilaFasciata (talk | contribs) 19:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- You’re right, it’s almost the same thing like as the Swiss flag and the coat of arms/emblem… 149.140.246.66 (talk) 19:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Turkey has no official emblem Shadow4dark (talk) 20:43, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- So does France, but it still placed in the infobox of that article. Dziugreb (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
- This doesn't mean it is correct to place an emblem that isn't official. And I don't see much serious discussion regarding this on France's talk page archives. Only argument is "French wikipedia uses this". Beshogur (talk) 12:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
- Also it is false that Turkish MFA uses that particular design. On passports it is a golden one, while on ID card it has a shade. Beshogur (talk) 16:00, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
- So does France, but it still placed in the infobox of that article. Dziugreb (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)
Template-protected edit request on 25 July 2023 (2)
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Please add "|expiry = 2023-12-01". This moratorium expires on that day, no? Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 21:57, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Done Izno (talk) 01:00, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
Legalization/Decriminalization
@Andwats Thank you for your edit. The problem I find with it is that decriminalization can mean a wide range of things. The law prohibiting sodomy (although very rarely, if ever used) was in force until 1853. This law was no longer in force after this. I do not particularly understand your rationale for calling this decriminalization instead of legalization; as it was both, and LGBT history in Turkey uses the two terms in the same sense. Uness232 (talk) 23:33, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- The section of this article in question is a summary of the LGBT_rights_in_Turkey, see the guidelines at the top of this talk page. That article uses "decriminalization" in all headers, particularly the header "Decriminalization (1858)." Nowhere does that article say homosexuality was legalized or that there was a law which provided legalization of same-sex relationships in any shape. Therefore the sentence in this article which says "Homosexual activity has been legal in Turkey since 1858." conflicts with the source article that this section is, again, a summary of. This article is not a space for debate about legally precise terminology it should merely reflect (and not conflict with) articles it references. There are also articles on decriminalization and Legalization if you are interested in understand the precise distinctions. However, the appropriate thing to do would be to change LGBT_rights_in_Turkey, if you have a source which says the change in 1858 was legalization as opposed to decriminalization, rather than to change it here. I will be, once again, reverting your undo. Andwats (talk) 23:58, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am aware of the myriad of distinct and sometimes overlapping ways in which these terms are used. In this case, no new laws on the matter have been passed/rescinded since 1858, and ILGA calls same-sex relations "legal" in Turkey. The 1858 law was inspired by the French penal code, which has a similar "public decency" caveat. Yet LGBT rights by country or territory would claim that same-sex relations in France have been "legal" since 1791. The reality is, these terms here are being used interchangeably, and Misplaced Pages generally favors "legal" for same-sex relations laws. Uness232 (talk) 00:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- The article cited for "Homosexual activity has been ... in Turkey since 1858" uses the word decriminalization. Here is it's byline "A new paper shows 18th- and 19th-century Ottoman rulers decriminalised homosexuality and promoted women's education." Here is the link: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/oct/07/ottoman-empire-secular-history-sharia. It does not once use the word legal. So not only does "decrimalize" conform to the language of LGBT_rights_in_Turkey AND to the citation in this article, there is no reference to "legal" or "legalization" in the citation used for the very sentence we are discussing. So, that to me is the end of the story. Andwats (talk) 01:35, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Andwats Fine, I suppose. I do not have the energy nor the motivation to go through sources right now. I will question one thing though. If what happened in 1858 was decriminalization, and homosexual activity is legal in Turkey today (per ILGA for example), what changed and when? If these concepts are different in this case, something must have changed in between. Uness232 (talk) 09:00, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- Do you have a link for the ILGA referring to the current state in Turkey being legalization? A lot can change in 165 years, but since Turkey doesn't have a protection against discrimination for same-sex relationships and doesn't recognize same-sex marriage, I'd definitely be interested in understanding what the ILGA's criteria are. Andwats (talk) 13:31, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- It looks like in this map, ILGA refers to Turkey only as having decriminalized same-sex sexual acts: https://ilga.org/map-sexual-orientation-laws-overview-2017 Andwats (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Andwats The map does not distinguish between legalization and decriminalization however. The list they provide in pg. 172 here (from the same paper) considers Turkey in the "legal" category, and there is no mention of a "decriminalized" category. ILGA's only criteria here (which is generally used for both the concepts of decriminalization and legalization of same-sex relationships), are whether there are laws that restrict same-sex relations. Turkey does not have a law of this kind. If you have a different definiton of legalization, I would not know, but in this case both can be used in overlapping ways. Uness232 (talk) 14:00, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- They don't seem to provide a definition of what they mean there. They do refer to at least one change of law on page 175, YY v Turkey, so presumably there have been others in 165 years. The difference is well defined in decriminalization and legalization. For instance, the 1858 law in Turkey retained penalties for related acts and as per LGBT_rights_in_Turkey this is quantifiable decriminalization. You brought up France before, I'd have to dig further. But my current understanding is that the 1791 change removed all penalties, although some were reintroduced in 1810 and then by the 1840s authorities used lewdness laws to criminalize same-sex behavior. So it's true that the 1791 law legalized same-sex relations, but it could be noted that the later 1810 law and policing in the 1800s resulted in decriminalization. Andwats (talk) 14:28, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Andwats 1) There is no such thing as "quantifiable decriminalization". Decriminalization is a concept, which can be defined in certain ways; Misplaced Pages uses this distinction between legalization and decriminaliation: "Legalization should be contrasted with decriminalization, which removes criminal charges from an action, but leaves intact associated laws and regulations." The vagueness of this is notable. What counts as an "associated law"?
- 2) The Ottoman Law was translated from the French law, as LGBT rights in Turkey identifies.
- 3) Turkish laws were completely rewritten after 1923, but no law relating to same-sex relations has been created or repealed. Public decency laws have not been completely repealed either, but I have not seen them being used in this fashion. I have seen news of this being levied against drag queens, but not same-sex relations, if they do not involve public nakedness (in which case all relations, same-sex or not, are illegal). So are the public decency laws "associated laws?" In 1858?. Now? So what you are saying is "quantifiable" I would argue is vague and, in this case, quite an unnecessary distinction. Law enforcement, state-forces etc. can bend and extend vaguely written rules to different lengths if they so wish; examples abound on this from US book bans to Turkey's laws on protest. But there is a spectrum here, and one that can not be neatly grouped into two. One article of the LGBT rights in Turkey article argues that the 1858 laws "partial decriminalization", using decriminalization as a synonym for legalization, qualifying your concept as "partial".
- I would favor "legal" as terminology simply because it is recognizable and easily understandable, as a sort of "there is no law preventing same-sex relations directly", and as an antonym to illegal. Of course homophobic actors ca/do use other laws against queer people. They do this in countries with marriage equality as well. Uness232 (talk) 14:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- 1) So, what is quantifiable is that the 1858 law retained fines and other penalties. Ergo, criminalization was removed but associated laws were retained.
- 2) The Ottoman law was translated from the 1810 French code, not the events of 1791, which is an important distinction.
- 3) What happened after 1923 is not a concern here. But I would guess the interpretation and enforcement of the law has changed since 1858. I suspect the one specific place that ILGA uses legal has been done so as a gloss, since their more readily available current material uses decriminalization. But again, the point is that the citation in this article uses decriminalization, and the article linked from this article uses decriminalization. "Legal" is the vague word here, there are no additional protections, e.g. against discrimination, and no positive sense of legality, there's no right that is enshrined. But the point is, the precise and consistent term is decriminalized since it is used in the associated article and the sources associated to this article. If one, felt it was the wrong term, then again the place to edit would be LGBT_rights_in_Turkey. I do agree with the wording used to describe the 1858 law as only partially decriminalization (although decriminalization is always a partiality one might argue) since it did not decriminalize actions in "public." What happened in France, for instance, after ~1830 was that the 1810 law's sense of private and public was eroded until the point that authorities applied the lewdness prohibitions on the basis that public meant "anyone could walk in" even in the case of private homes. Andwats (talk) 15:48, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- I understand your point and still disagree with it to a large extent. However, I no longer have enough energy to talk about this. Have a nice day. Uness232 (talk) 16:46, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- They don't seem to provide a definition of what they mean there. They do refer to at least one change of law on page 175, YY v Turkey, so presumably there have been others in 165 years. The difference is well defined in decriminalization and legalization. For instance, the 1858 law in Turkey retained penalties for related acts and as per LGBT_rights_in_Turkey this is quantifiable decriminalization. You brought up France before, I'd have to dig further. But my current understanding is that the 1791 change removed all penalties, although some were reintroduced in 1810 and then by the 1840s authorities used lewdness laws to criminalize same-sex behavior. So it's true that the 1791 law legalized same-sex relations, but it could be noted that the later 1810 law and policing in the 1800s resulted in decriminalization. Andwats (talk) 14:28, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Andwats The map does not distinguish between legalization and decriminalization however. The list they provide in pg. 172 here (from the same paper) considers Turkey in the "legal" category, and there is no mention of a "decriminalized" category. ILGA's only criteria here (which is generally used for both the concepts of decriminalization and legalization of same-sex relationships), are whether there are laws that restrict same-sex relations. Turkey does not have a law of this kind. If you have a different definiton of legalization, I would not know, but in this case both can be used in overlapping ways. Uness232 (talk) 14:00, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- @Andwats Fine, I suppose. I do not have the energy nor the motivation to go through sources right now. I will question one thing though. If what happened in 1858 was decriminalization, and homosexual activity is legal in Turkey today (per ILGA for example), what changed and when? If these concepts are different in this case, something must have changed in between. Uness232 (talk) 09:00, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- The article cited for "Homosexual activity has been ... in Turkey since 1858" uses the word decriminalization. Here is it's byline "A new paper shows 18th- and 19th-century Ottoman rulers decriminalised homosexuality and promoted women's education." Here is the link: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/oct/07/ottoman-empire-secular-history-sharia. It does not once use the word legal. So not only does "decrimalize" conform to the language of LGBT_rights_in_Turkey AND to the citation in this article, there is no reference to "legal" or "legalization" in the citation used for the very sentence we are discussing. So, that to me is the end of the story. Andwats (talk) 01:35, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am aware of the myriad of distinct and sometimes overlapping ways in which these terms are used. In this case, no new laws on the matter have been passed/rescinded since 1858, and ILGA calls same-sex relations "legal" in Turkey. The 1858 law was inspired by the French penal code, which has a similar "public decency" caveat. Yet LGBT rights by country or territory would claim that same-sex relations in France have been "legal" since 1791. The reality is, these terms here are being used interchangeably, and Misplaced Pages generally favors "legal" for same-sex relations laws. Uness232 (talk) 00:29, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
Add empire on Establishment
Under the establishment, the empire Seljuk Empire is missing. Should we add that? THEGoldberg1 (talk) 14:26, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
- @THEGoldberg1: The republic is a direct continuation of the Ottoman Empire (state organizations etc.) while I don't see a connection to the Seljuks at all. Beshogur (talk) 15:01, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
Correct this please
Wrong: "Turkey was home to important Neolithic sites like Göbekli Tepe"
Right: "Turkey is home to important Neolithic sites like Göbekli Tepe"
Thanks. 212.174.190.23 (talk) 13:28, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
- Done Agreed. Largoplazo (talk) 15:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 August 2023
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Please add category
Category:Dialogue partners of the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation
-- MaliMail (talk) 12:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Edit request
This is a clumsy edit. It doesn't better the text, it makes the text worse. 212.174.190.24 (talk) 14:54, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 August 2023
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--- MaliMail (talk) 16:58, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
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