Talk:International Churches of Christ

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Court Cases

In early 2023, 6 Federal Court Cases were filed against the ICOC alleging child molestation, racketeering and other horrendous claims. In July of 2023 the 6 plaintiffs all withdrew their cases and the judge dismissed ALL the cases. This comes from a Reliable Source found at www.pacermonitor.com (which is a site that keeps dockets of court cases in the US). On the ICOC page an editor has referenced that 2 cases have been refiled, based on a Rolling Stone Magazine article. A simple search reveals that no such LA County Court Cases have actually been logged. If anyone has a primary source that proves the secondary source (Rolling Stone Magazine) is accurate please provide it? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 09:07, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

The Rolling Stone article is quite clear in its assertion that cases have been filed: "According to two lawsuits filed July 13 in L.A. County Court, the International Churches of Christ (ICOC) is not a church, but a 'cult,' a high-control group where leaders allegedly take advantage of the members". Cordless Larry (talk) 09:22, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

I've reverted this addition based on primary sources. I think we need secondary sources covering these recent court filings to be able to note them, but others may take a different view, so I'm raising it here. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I am surprised that court cases that haven't even had a ruling are even on this Misplaced Pages page, this comes across like a gossip magazine more than an encyclopedia. Either WP:BALASPS or WP:BLPGROUP seem to apply. Once there is a ruling then that can be included on this page. Until then the basic rule of NPOV or "innocent until proven guilty" should apply. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:10, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

If they've been reported in reliable, secondary sources and the text is neutral, I don't see the problem. Reporting on an ongoing case isn't the same as making an assumption about guilt. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:47, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Here is the primary info on the four state cases pending in Los Angeles against ICC, ICOC and Kippers. Someone keeps removing this info from the article. But these are official, public records.

"As of October 26, 2023, four lawsuits with a total of 16 plaintiffs have been filed in Los Angeles County Court, alleging sexual abuse of children by church leaders and members ."

Here is the court's website, where these cases can be looked up by the case number .:https://www.lacourt.org/casesummary/ui/index.aspx?casetype=civil

Here is the actual fourth complaint.:https://drive.google.com/file/d/174tr_QdQqqNPvJ9gdaYXwg-UOJp1S_Aw/view thought1 (talk) 00:18, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

The someone is me, 1pameroo, as should be clear from my comment from 30 October above and comments at User talk:1pameroo#October 2023. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:04, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Reliability and independence of sources

I've started a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Reliability and independence of sources for International Churches of Christ about some of the sources used in this article. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:35, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

NPOV: Adding summary comment to the lead

To follow the WP:NPOV, since this material appears in the article also, this comment can be added to the summary of the cult discussion in the Lead. "Others have found the church to not be a cult." Cite: https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/digitised/article/straitstimes19980901-1.2.31.11?qt=church,%20not,%20a,%20cult&q=church%20not%20a%20cult

Editaddict (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Since no one discussed this and since it is complicit with the WP:NPOV policy, I will add it to the article. Editaddict (talk) 20:56, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Neutrality and verifiability

Most problems with negative material can be avoided by adhering to standard WP policies, such as using good sources, balancing the content carefully, and writing in an unbiased way. When including negative material in an article, some things to check for include:

• Ensure that the material is supported by reliable sources

• Do not present the material in a way that over-emphasizes it

• Always present positive viewpoints along with any negative information to give balance

Editaddict (talk) 20:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

You have NO consensus for your edits, I strongly suggest you revert yourself. Theroadislong (talk) 21:09, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Please explain how my simple suggestion does not follow the WP:NPOV policy to create neutrality and balance. My understanding is that the WP policy is what we follow and not just people's opinions. Editaddict (talk) 15:06, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

As has been explained to you, your conflict of interest means you should avoid editing the article directly and instead post edit requests here and gain consensus for any proposed changes. I oppose this addition because the source doesn't really support the claim that "Others have found the church to not be a cult"; all it says is that the Court of Appeal in Singapore overturned a High Court ruling that newspapers that had called the Central Christian Church a cult had not defamed it. We should perhaps add something to that effect to the Court cases and lawsuits section of the article, but the statement you've added isn't supported and doesn't belong in the lede. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, the article doesn't establish that the Central Christian Church was affiliated with the International Churches of Christ, so that would need to be established with a good source. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:20, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It is on their website https://centralchristianchurch.sg/

Is that a good enough source? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 11:52, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the website doesn't state that the church was affiliated with the International Churches of Christ at the time of the court case in 1998. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you misread. The headline reads: "The Appeals Court has ruled that the two newspapers defamed the Central Christian Church by labelling it a 'cult." Please give a good reason this addition to the lead does not follow the WP:NPOV "Always present positive viewpoints along with any negative information to give balance." Just saying it does not belong there does not make it so. Editaddict (talk) 15:15, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:NPOV#Balance does not say that, it says "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint." which is a very different statement Horse Eye's Back (talk) 11:30, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

So there are accusations or the church being a cult, then there are articles where the churches of Christ, the 1,6million member body from where the ICOC came, where the representatives of the COC apologized for using the word “cult” to describe the ICOC https://christianchronicle.org/icoc-mainline-leaders-meet-at-abilene-christian-1/ And there is a law case where an expert testified: “Church not a cult, says expert witness Tan Ooi Boon Central Christian Church hearings By Testifies that its practices were not 'strange, unnatural or harmful' AN EXPERT on religious studies yesterday said that the Central Christian Church here was not a cult because Us practices were "neither strange, unnatural or …” https://web.archive.org/web/20130928102343/http:/newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/SearchResults.aspx?keyword=central%20christian%20church%20hearings. And @CordlessLarry you believe the only Reliable sources are the ones accusing the church of being a “cult”? Tell me you are not serious? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 12:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not about believing or not believing the sources; it's about accurately reporting what they say. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:22, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

So why are you excluding these sources and what they are saying from your editing in the LEAD and elsewhere? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 16:35, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The lede should summarise the main content of the article, so the material shouldn't simply be added there when it's not in the article. I don't oppose its inclusion in the body article. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

It was already in the body of the article, unless you removed it over the past 6 months.

If no-one objects, I am going to remove the contested section and we can replace it once we have consensus here on the Talk page JamieBrown2011 (talk) 17:23, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

The information is already in the article. It is how I found it. You have yet to answer the question "How is including it in the lead summary not following the WP:POV? Your opinions are not the bar for inclusion. Editaddict (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

My apologies - there are a couple of sentences on it. A single defamation case in Singapore (and we still don't have a source stating that the church was part of ICOC) doesn't merit inclusion in the lede to my mind. Per WP:LEDE, the lede "is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents". This isn't particularly important content. There's also the problem that "Others have found the church to not be a cult" isn't really supported by the source - it's original research to make that claim based on a single primary source. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

This explanation is very confusing. Perhaps it is because you misread and misremembered the article twice now. How does including this statement and reference to the Singapore case and the cult expert not fit this WP policy: "Neutrality assigns weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence in reliable sources. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint." Editaddict (talk) 21:50, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean I've misread the source or the Misplaced Pages article? I made a mistake in stating that the material wasn't covered in the body of the article, but I don't see where I've misrepresented the source. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Yes, what you are stating is the WP:NPOV principle I am trying to follow to achieve a neutral point of view by presenting balance. It is simply a small addition that summarizes content that is already in the article and refers to a reputable disinterested source. Please show how this addition violates this principle. Editaddict (talk) 15:04, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

On the “original research” point @ is making, he is right, as editors we cant be writing our summary of the source being referenced, rather we should quote directly from it. On the RS and NPOV issue, @Editaddict you raise a valid point, why is the Singapore court case which is written about in the Strait Times (a Singapore newspaper) being ignored? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not being ignored - it gets two sentences at the start of the court cases section. I'm happy to discuss whether that's the appropriate weight to give the case (I think it probably is), but first you need to demonstrate that with secondary sources that the Singapore church involved in the case is indeed "a part of the ICOC family of churches", with suitable secondary sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

So firstly it is on their own website that they are an ICOC church (I have given the reference above already). 2ndly in the ICOCHistory website the court case and the results are covered in detail https://icochistory.org/download/la-story-courage-under-fire/?wpdmdl=754&refresh=659b9831268ab1704695857 JamieBrown2011 (talk) 15:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Their website is a primary source and it doesn't establish that they were an ICOC church at the time of the court cases. The PDF you just linked is also a primary source (written by the ICOC's General Counsel); it does at least establish the connection, but it would be better to have a secondary source. I'm going to open an RfC on this. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:26, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

3rdly, the court case is discussed in the Singapore newspaper “The Strait Times” https://web.archive.org/web/20130928102343/http:/newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/SearchResults.aspx?keyword=central%20christian%20church%20hearings JamieBrown2011 (talk) 15:44, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Those would be better sources, but do they mention ICOC? Cordless Larry (talk) 16:11, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Cordless Larry (talk) The paragraph in question in the Lead appears to fail Misplaced Pages Policies in a number of key aspects. For the following reasons, the paragraph should be removed in its entirety or moved to be merged with the Court Cases and Lawsuits section of the article. According to WP:LEAD, "he lead . . .should . . . establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies" (from a neutral point of view). The context and notability of allegations of the church as a cult have not been established by referencing the "Former members" through a mere citation to a Rolling Stone article or the "view" of Janja Lalich, an individual identified as an expert on cults and coercion, who states that the church has "some of the hallmarks of a cult." The relative number of former members who are making cult allegations to the current members, former members or those from the general population who are not is not ascertainable by these general statements of opinion and do not "establish context" or “explain why the topic is notable” for the allegations that the church is a cult. To position in the Lead the viewpoint of what appears to be a minority is inconsistent with WP:UNDUE that states, "enerally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a 'see also' to an article about those specific views." --Meta Voyager (talk) 19:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

If you read WP:UNDUE, you'll notice that it starts "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources" - which is different to being in proportion to the number of former members making the allegations, as you seem to be suggesting. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:18, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

According to WP:UNDUE, "ndue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to . . . prominence of placement." The church article contains nearly forty paragraphs about its origin, historical development, various governance arrangements, and its beliefs and practices that take up many pages and which are supported by nearly eighty credible source citations, while the section on Court Cases and Lawsuits, that includes a reference to lawsuits and a cult allegation, is a mere two paragraphs at the end of the article with mostly news media sourcing. To attribute one of three paragraphs in the Lead on the topic of cult allegations and lawsuits that are thinly sourced is out of proportion with the overall substance of the article and its most important points. Meta Voyager (talk) 12:56, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, though much of the article content is based on primary sources and quite a lot of it needs to be removed if secondary sources can't be found. At least the lawsuits and cult allegations material is based on good, secondary sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The last two replies in this thread appear to be an effort to divert from the primary policy discussion about what is appropriate for the Lead and, instead, turn the discussion to a general statement about neutral point of view and the distinction between primary and secondary sourcing in the body of the article. In my view, the overarching concern about the reference to opinions on the cult status of the church in the third paragraph of the Lead is that these opinions don’t belong in the Lead at all according to WP:LEAD. The Lead should “establish context” and “explain why the topic is notable.” The “former members” reference in the Lead accomplishes neither. It is sourced from a Rolling Stone article that ties the cult allegation to two lawsuits in Los Angeles County Court brought by a total of 7 individuals. In contrast, the church is described elsewhere in this Wiki article as having more than 100,000 adherents and in the Wiki article on the Restoration Movement as a church having origins in the American Restoration Movement and Churches of Christ in the United States that reach back to the 19 century. The WP:UNDUE policies on “prominence of placement” further support why the opinions of a limited number of former members on the topic of cult status do not belong in the Lead. According to recent reporting by the church, there are more than 700 church congregations associated with the International Churches of Christ, mostly outside the USA. Focusing on 2 cases in a Los Angeles, California court in the USA seems out of place. I am aware of the 2 subsequent cases filed in Los Angeles and my point remains the same. In all sincerity, I don’t find this issue to be a close call and that the third paragraph in the Lead should be removed; however, I’m interested in policy-based arguments that would suggest otherwise. Can we return in this thread to a discussion of the key policies about the Lead an how they apply to the paragraph in question? Meta Voyager (talk) 15:38, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

You're quoting WP:LEDE selectively, leaving out the bit that says it should "summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies". The cult allegations aren't just made in the Rolling Stone article in relation to the lawsuits but are a common feature of coverage of the church in secondary sources. For some further examples, see this ("International Churches of Christ...is largely seen as a cult"), this ("a reputed cult, the International Church of Christ") and this ("Imagine now, this very same healing community that most members describe as an awesome family portrayed as a 'dangerous cult'. Who makes such claims about this healing group? Ex-members, former leaders, anti-cult groups, and many university officials who have banned the group from campuses because of their 'deceptive recruiting techniques' and authoritarian structure"). Cordless Larry (talk) 18:10, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the extra articles. The "former members" reference is also used to support an accusation of the church "covering up sexual abuse of children" and includes citations to single news articles in The Guardian and Los Angeles Times. The nature of the cover up accusations by former members is alarming and troubling, but, standing alone, does not make the reference sufficient to justify inclusion in the Lead. The paragraph in question also states that "s of August 2023, some US branches of the church were the subject of multiple lawsuits." These references appear to be an effort to justify the inclusion of the paragraph as a "prominent controversy" WP:LEAD. However, the reference to a controversy related to the church is already acknowledged in the prior paragraph in the Lead and does not need to be repeated in another paragraph. A simple cross-reference to the Court Cases and Lawsuits section in the body of the article would be a sufficient way to alert the reader to controversy involving the church. Further and significantly, as of August, 2023 there were in fact no individual International Church of Christ congregations named in the cited lawsuits - only one congregation from the International Christian Church, a distinct and different church group that is recognized more appropriately in a separate Misplaced Pages page https://en.wikipedia.org/Kip_McKean#International_Christian_Church. This date stamped reference to lawsuits and the conflation of matters involving the International Churches of Christ and those of the International Christian Church are inaccuracies and represent original research that is prohibited by WP:OR as "a synthesis of published materials that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources." Meta Voyager (talk) 11:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

RfC on Singapore court case

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At International Churches of Christ#Court cases and lawsuits, the article currently states: The Central Christian Church in Singapore, a part of the ICOC family of churches, won a court case (SINGAPORE HIGH COURT – SUIT NOs 846 and 848 of 1992 Judges LAI KEW CHAI J Date 29 August 1994 Citation 1 SLR 115) in which the judge ruled against a newspaper that had accused the Church of being a cult. An expert on religious studies testified that the Central Christian Church's practices were "neither strange, unnatural or harmful." The link between the Central Christian Church and the ICOC is supported by this primary source, provided by JamieBrown2011 in the discussion above.

The questions for the RfC are (a) whether the sourcing (including the primary source linking the Singapore church to the ICOC) is strong enough for this to be included and if so, (b) what the appropriate weight is to give this case and (c) whether it should be added to the article lede. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:35, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

As a first-time editor to this page, it seems that the question of whether to include the Singapore news article to provide balance for the allegations of the church being a “cult” is a settled issue under principles of WP:NPOV as the reference and inclusion of the Singapore Court case already exists under the Court Cases and Lawsuits section in the body of the article. However, this discussion assumes that the third paragraph is appropriate for the Lead. I don’t think it is and have offered my reasons in NPOV: Adding summary comment to the lead. Talk:International Churches of Christ#NPOV: Adding summary comment to the lead Meta Voyager (talk) 19:50, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

References

"NewspaperSG". nl.sg. Archived from the original on 28 September 2013.

Is the question here only about the link between the two churches? Because the mention of the supreme court cases is based on Straits Times and seems pretty legitimate. I think it is strong enough for it to be included in the article. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

There's more than one question, Elmmapleoakpine (see a, b and c above). It's about whether the sourcing is strong enough to establish the link between the church in the Singapore case and the ICOC to include it in the ICOC article (the Straits Times source is good on the case but doesn't mention the ICOC), what weight to give it if it is included, and whether it also belongs in the article lede. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:51, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

In terms of the link to the ICOC, it is stated on their website that they are an ICOC church (scroll to the bottom) https://centralchristianchurch.sg/

It is also stated on the ICOChistory website that the Central Christian Church in Singapore is part of the ICOC and at the time of the lawsuit https://icochistory.org/download/la-story-courage-under-fire/?wpdmdl=754&refresh=659b9831268ab1704695857. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 12:50, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

For reasons I already explained, the first of those sources isn't very helpful. I linked to the second one in the RfC text. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:07, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

OK, so let me get this clear, you are confused/unsure as to whether the Central Christian Church is part of the ICOC. Yet it was started by the ICOC in 1988, and to this day remains in the ICOC https://centralchristianchurch.sg/our-history/ . Add to that, the lawsuit was thoroughly documented in the www.icochistory.org website and on the CCC’s own website https://centralchristianchurch.sg/our-legal-victory/. I am really unsure as to why you are confused. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not confused, no. I believe that the church is part of the ICOC. That doesn't mean we don't need a reliable source for the purposes of WP:VERIFY. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:22, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:ABOUTSELF provides this, does it not? JamieBrown2011 (talk) 07:50, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

In addition, as you can see in the discussion above, the question of following WP:NPOV has never been answered by those not wanting to add the link to the lede.

How does including the Singapore link (that is already in the article) not fit the WP:NPOV policy?

Neutrality and verifiability

• Ensure that the material is supported by reliable sources

• Do not present the material in a way that over-emphasizes it

• Always present positive viewpoints along with any negative information to give balance

Editaddict (talk) 17:39, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

My own view is that the material belongs in the article, though I'd prefer a properly secondary source for the link between the churches. WP:WEIGHT requires us to give due weight to the prominence of each viewpoint in reliable sources. The Singapore case largely received local attention, whereas the more recent lawsuits have been covered by international media. The view of the expert cited in the Singapore source is just that - the view of a single expert - whereas there are multiple sources describing the ICOC as a cult. For those reasons, I don't think we should give this more than a couple of sentences in the article, and I don't think it belongs in the lede. Per WP:LEDE, the lede should summarise the most important aspects of the article, and this isn't one of those in my view. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:37, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
I hear what you are saying but there still is no answer to how including a simple statement with links in the lede does not follow this WP:NPOV policy. Please answer specifically each of these policies in relation to the simple statement to include in the lede.
Neutrality and verifiability

Most problems with negative material can be avoided by adhering to standard WP policies, such as using good sources, balancing the content carefully, and writing in an unbiased way. When including negative material in an article, some things to check for include:

•    Ensure that the material is supported by reliable sources

•    Do not present the material in a way that over-emphasizes it

•    Always present positive viewpoints along with any negative information to give balance

Editaddict (talk) 21:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

This is a request for comment seeking input from the Misplaced Pages community, not a Q&A session with me. I've expressed my view and will now leave it to others to express theirs. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:51, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Since the problematic section that is under dispute, is you inserting a paragraph in the LEAD where you use the term “cult” 3x in 3 sentences and mention upcoming court cases 2x’s, I think WP:UNDUE would tell us to have that reduced to maybe 1 mention, because you are giving undue WEIGHT to the negative. Then by including those claims in the LEAD, and resisting including the court case where the church demonstrated and won, that they are not a cult (remember the other court cases you mention have not even happened yet) NPOV would say “Always present positive viewpoints along with any negative information to give balance”. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 08:11, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Remove entirely: I would suggest a brief review of WP:LAWRS, which at least introduces some of why nothing in this paragraph is usable. Most egregiously, what an expert witness says in court is fundamentally different to what we can attribute to an expert RS in a WP article. It's a self-published source from an academic, which can only be used in very cautious circumstances -- furthermore, since the "publishing" was a court transcript, it's arguable that tbis is even WP:SPS. After that is the newspaper article on the court ruling -- are we citing it because it makes some useful statement or summary (or even analysis) of the ruling? If not. then we are effectively making an internal citation to the ruling itself, a primary source. Does the ruling itself say definitively that ICOC has proven misconduct or not? No, the ruling is about the misconduct of a newspaper. This serves a great example of how to misuse sources on issues of law. SamuelRiv (talk) 21:25, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for that WP:LAWRS, but there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding. The source is not a court transcript but a WP:RS The Strait Times, a well respected Singapore newspaper. JamieBrown2011 (talk) 12:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

The referenced Singapore court case is a relevant example of WP:NPOV in practice as it represents an official court proceeding where the subject matter of whether an ICOC church was a cult was litigated at two levels of the Singapore court system. The case was based on a claim that the church was defamed by The New Paper, a newspaper based in Singapore and Lianhe Wanbao, a Chinese evening daily at the time, but now merged with Shin Min Daily News. The lower court ruled that the newspapers’ declarations of the church as a cult did not constitute defamation and the higher court reversed the lower court’s decision. The Appeals Court concluded in its court opinion that the newspapers’ “fact” claim about the church being a cult was in error and awarded damages on the basis that the church was defamed. The history of the case itself makes clear that there are two viewpoints on the question of the church’s “cult” status. Another of the relevant values of the article is that the defendants, The New Paper and Lianhe Wanbao, and The Straits Times, the publisher of the article, were all owned at the time by the same parent company, Singapore Press Holdings, now known as SPH Media. The referenced Straits Times article carries in its headline, “The Appeals Court has ruled that two newspapers defamed the Central Christian Church by labelling it a ‘cult’“ and serves as an admission by a related party that two of its sister newspapers were found in error. Further, the use of the court case and the article that reports upon it are not contrary to the essay on the use of law sources found in WP:LAWRS. The essay acknowledges that court opinions are among the types of “law” references that are acceptable as Misplaced Pages sources; however, they should be used carefully. In this thread, there may be a need to revise the language of the disputed paragraph, but, in my view, there is value in adding the court case reference and related Straits Times article as sources for a statement that there are opposing views to the allegation that the church is a cult. These sources provide balance and adhere to WP:NPOV. I disagree with the assertion of another editor to “remove entirely” and would instead invite the author of the paragraph to consider revisions with these thoughts in mind. Meta Voyager (talk) 23:40, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

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