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Do Bulgarians really need to steal the history and national identity of the Macedonians? Are they that desparate and pathetic?
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Hi there,
Does anyone know if St. Clements cake is anything to do with this article or related to the saints?
Thanks
Origin of Clement - Macedonia
Kliment Ohridski (Clement of Ohrid) is one of the most important educator, translator, writer and literacy contributor for all Slavic people in the 9th and begining of 10th century. He was born in Macedonia and of Macedonian ethnicity, although in that time there was not big distinction and "national awareness" like today. He followed the great accomplishments of the brothers from Solun (Salonica), Kiril and Metodij, who led the Slavic people to the path of progress. 3500 students enrolled the University of Ohrid, which was founded by Kliment. He is considered as one of the creators of the "Kirilica" alphabet which is official alphabet of countries Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Byelorussia, Russia, Mongolia and others (more than 200 million people use Cyrillic alphabet).
Latin: Clement of Ohrid Macedonia Macedonian Cyrillic: Климент Охридски Македонија
To view properly Cyrillic in your browser click on View->Encoding->Cyrillic (Windows)
Georgi Kozinakov Austin, Texas
Clement's birthplace
"... according to his hagiography by Theophylact of Bulgaria, Clement was born in southwestern Bulgaria, in the region of Macedonia."
I was unable to verify the above assertion through available translations of Theophylact's text. Neither that Theophylact mentioned Clement's birthplace, nor any particular region of Bulgaria. Therefore, I suggest that direct quotations be provided from the abovementioned work -- or from any other original source not mere speculations by modern historians -- testifying that Clement was indeed born in the geographical region of Macedonia. If not, then the above assertion should be removed. If someone were to provide a valid quotation of Chomatian's testimony that Clement was a born Bulgarian, that could be included instead. Apcbg 12:17, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- I would like to return to this issue again. If the birthplace of Clement is not mentioned, than why should that statement stay? Can annyone source the statement about Clement's birthplace? Bomac 14:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I protest
And of course fellow wikipedians, as always when an article somehow related to Republic of Macedonia or FYROM if you insist is in question we always see the point of view ONLY from the perspectives of the official historiographies of it's neighbouring countries (?!) like: Republic of Bulgaria and/or Greece and/or Albania and/or Serbia but never the POV of the RoM/FYROM side. Excuse me for my cynicism please, but a fact is that: he was Kliment OHRIDSKI. Ohrid is in Republic of Macedonia where the Ohrid Literary school was opened, one of the oldest Universities in the world that gave litteracy and education to all the slavic nations and which is still keeping Clement's traditions by gathering slavists from all around the world on various symposiums, seminars etc. that are held there. These are facts accepted by the whole world, while of course you can question St. Clement's "ethnicity" (though it's quite questionable itself was there really any "nationality" in this modern sence in those early medieval times?!),you can also argue over his place of birth and so on and so on, but a fact is a fact. OHRID is where he accomplished his life achievments and thus got the name OHRIDSKI, Ohrid was the University center that gave litteracy to Bulgarians, Russians and all the other slavic nations. So, without any need for an 'academic debate' and by any possible standards St. Clement from OHRID belongs to the history of Republic of Macedonia and thus the RoM/FYROM perspective of these topics should be absolutely taken into account.--Vbb-sk-mk 01:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
If you just take the time to read the story of Clement's life, as it was writtent by the Byzantine scholar Theophylact you would realize how ridiculous your argument sounds anywhere outside of FYROM and Serbia. Ohrid is without a doubt in FYROM, but then again Constantinople/Istanbul is in Turkey - is it fair that the Turks claim all Byzantine history and culture as their own? And please do not presume to think that Macedonia is the sole center of Slavonic culture on the Balkans - the main University of Sofia bore the name St. Clement of Ohrida long before there was a FYROM, or even a Yugoslavia.
- Jo
- Do you have any recent (after the dissolution of Yugoslavia) sources supporting your statement about Serbia? Apcbg 06:16, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
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No the Turks can not claim byzantene history because they came to the region later and conquered Byzantium. Regarding the Macedonians and the macedonian ethnicity, the people that consider themselves macedonian, have lived on the territory for centuries, they didn't conquer anything, they were just there, they nurtured their own traditions and in one point in time they decided (being tired of others deciding for them) that the world should know that they are a diferent entity form the other people that lived in the region. It is normal that the people which transfered to them the traditions and customs, are considered a part of the Macedonian history as well since they are the ones that in the begining created, built and than had, this distinctive cultre! So this is a sound argument which implys that Clement was actualy macedonian, since the people that lived in that part of the balkan peninsula considered them selves macedonian, solely by the fact that their culture and language was diferent from the others, regardles of the timeline, because they weren't newcomers at any point of time!!! They were there and the identity either shaped over time, or was always present but not widely acknowledged, for whatever reason. Gogo 21:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
St. Climent is a saint of all the orthodox Slavs, not only Bulgarians!
Stop deleting my edits! Sveti Climent is a saint celebrated by all Orthodox Slavic People, and it is meaningless to label him as a Bulgarian Saint! In fact the reference link on this article says that he is a Slavic saint, developed the medieval Slavic literature, while working at the Bulgarian court!
And remember that Slavic is not equal to Bulgarian! The same goes for Sveti Naum —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Martin taleski (talk • contribs) 02:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC).
- Yes but he was an ethnic Bulgarian. /FunkyFly.talk_ 02:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Ethnic Bulgarians did not exist at the time! Nor did ethnic Macedonians or Serbians or Croats or any other Southern Slavic ethnicity! 10 centuries ago there were only Ethnic Slavs! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martin taleski (talk • contribs)
- Not true. There were certainly Bulgarians at that time and he was one of them. /FunkyFly.talk_ 02:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, then will keep on playing ping-pong with this page, until a moderator comes, or one of us goes to sleep!
And please tell me in what way did Ethnic Bulgarians differ from ethnic Macedonians and Serbes, or any other Slavic tribes in the 10-th century? -- Martin Taleski
- Reverting this page without sources, against consensus will only get you blocked. /FunkyFly.talk_ 02:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The edit is sourced, see the reference link at the bottom of the article! It was not my link =, i found it on this article... and it never says anything of a Bulgarian Saint
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc3h.htm
- This page is not saying anything about ethnicity. /FunkyFly.talk_ 02:59, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
from http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc3h.htm
Profile: Student of Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius in Moravia and Panonia. Building on their work, he helped found Slavic literature and culture in Macedonia. He was the first Slavic writer, translated dozens of works, wrote a biography of Saints Cyril and Methodius, and founded the first Slavic university in Ohrid. Friend of Saint Naum. Served in the Bulgarian court. Taught from 886 to 893 at Kutmicevica, being a great influence on over 3,000 students, many of whom became priests and spread the Slavic liturgy through the region. Spiritual teacher of Saint Constantine the Presbyter. Bishop of Belica, the first organised Slav Church on the Balkan Peninsula. Bishop of Ohrid. Founded Saint Pantaleimonth's monastery.
Slavic: 4 Bulgarian: 0 (actualy 1, but it says it worked at the Bulgarian Court)
- Again, no mention of ethnicity. And by the way: one of the Seven Apostles of Bulgaria, right at the beginning. /FunkyFly.talk_ 03:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Did he proclaim to be an apostole of Bulgaria, or modern Bulgarian adopted him as their saint... What if we proclaim George Bush to be one of the Seven Apostoles of Macedonia? Will it make any difference in hi ethnicity? -- Martin Taleski
- This is just your own interpretation. /FunkyFly.talk_ 03:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Sources!
Obolensky about St. Clement: "... a Slav by birth, a first - generation disciple of Cyril and Methodius: his name — Clement of Ohrid." http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/obolensky_impact.html
Christian History Institute:
"Clement wrote over fifty books. He is considered the first Slavic writer."
http://chi.gospelcom.net/DAILYF/2002/07/daily-07-27-2002.shtml
Patron Saints:
"Student of Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius in Moravia and Panonia. Building on their work, he helped found Slavic literature and culture in Macedonia. He was the first Slavic writer, translated dozens of works, wrote a biography of Saints Cyril and Methodius, and founded the first Slavic university in Ohrid. Friend of Saint Naum. Served in the Bulgarian court. Taught from 886 to 893 at Kutmicevica, being a great influence on over 3,000 students, many of whom became priests and spread the Slavic liturgy through the region. Spiritual teacher of Saint Constantine the Presbyter. Bishop of Belica, the first organised Slav Church on the Balkan Peninsula. Bishop of Ohrid. Founded Saint Pantaleimonth's monastery."
http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintc3h.htm