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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Islamist (talk | contribs) at 15:16, 17 April 2005 (→Orientalism is an important related term). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Early history of this page

Look to the talk pages Talk:Slogan 'Islamofascism' and Talk:List of political epithets for much discussion of this text. --- Charles Stewart 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

Needs to be done:

1. The list of claimants to have coined this term needs to be rationalised. My user page User:Chalst/islamofascism may be useful to others;
2. Weaselly terms like However, the goal of an integration of Arab (particularly Saudi) oil riches and theocracy, could be interpreted as a form of fascism. need to be rewritten.

I've not really got a high enough interest level to do this task well. --- Charles Stewart 18:24, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You have time to criticize; but not to contribute. Well isn't that "convenient"? Porphyria 20:55, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've made plenty of contributions to this material and related material. Check my edits. And criticism is contribution, when it is constructive. --- Charles Stewart 21:13, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That's an interesting excuse. I however would never accuse you of "weaselly" writing. Porphyria 21:16, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've been guilty of it on occasion, and there are defences for using it: check out my summary at Misplaced Pages talk:Avoid weasel terms#Minimise weasel terms. Could be interpreted is, according to the wikipedia term of art, a weasel phrase: does anybody so interpret this? Is the fact of such interpretations encyclopedic? It's not false, nor is it POV, but it is vague and fassl short of best editing practice. I was highlighting one example of a few such sentences in the article to bring attention to the problem. --- Charles Stewart 22:06, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

removed characterization

I removed the following unsourced characterization of "Islamofascism". My comments are interpolated, in italics:

Islamofascism is used by whom? to describe a an ideology with the following characteristics.

• Promotes the establisment of a global puritan (Wahhabi) islamic nation state under the totalitarian control of Islamic religious authorities. Who does this? Some Islamic political movements promote the reestablishment of the Caliphate, others want an Iranian or Taliban-style theocracy. Which are we talking about here? Or is this just a made-up bogeyman, as the term "totalitarian" seems to indicate?
  • Islamofascists promote the creation of totalitarian theocratic Islamic states. It's intrinsic to the definition of Islamofascist. Some may want a caliphate, while other settle for taliban-type total government. Hence the appelation totalitarian.

• Posit's the existance of an eternal violent conflict between muslims and infidels, that will end with the eventual victory of muslims over the infidels. An eternal conflict that will end. . . hmm, yes, that makes sense. Links to Dar al-Harb and Dar al-Islam might have been more informative.
  • This is still a article in progress. There would be no need to fight the infidel's but that this eternal conflict exists.

• Accepts and promotes terrorism and violence to further its goals. Some Islamic political movements do. Some don't. Not very helpful.
  • Islamofascist movements support violence. Non Islamofascist movements may or may not support violence.

• Strongly and violently anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist, anti-American, and anti-western. All of these, all at once, then? Always?
  • Yes always, since Jews, Israel, the US, and the western world are all perceived as implacable enemies of Islam. Hence they must be subjugated or destroyed. This is a key islamofascist holding. Most advocates of islamofascism havent gotten to point of making feckless intelectually dishonest statements such as "I'm a stauch anti-zionist and not at all anti-semitic! I support palestinian armed struggle but oppose terrorism."

• Denies normative western political concepts such as, the intrinsic value of human life, human rights and democracy. And motherhood and apple pie, too. Pure bogeyman.
  • Pure truth, sad but true. an Islamofascist state like Saudi Arabia or Taliban era Afghanistan does not embrace normative western political concepts. There is no democracy, and no human rights.

• Advocates a philosophy of trotskyist entryism to convert/subvert non-Islamic societies from within. Proselytizing is such an insidious evil, isn't it.
  • When you are attempting to destroy the host society in bad faith, it could be considered a problem.

• Advocates genocide of Jews or just the destruction or overthrow of the State of Israel—not quite the same thing—and even that isn't exactly a mainstream position.
  • You can't destroy or overthrow of the State of Israel without killing all or the vast majority of jews therein. Don't pretend otherwise.

There are two general problems with this text:

1. Not a single source is cited.
2. No significant movement that has all of these characteristics is named. I cannot think of one. Perhaps whoever added this text had some organization in mind.

—Charles P.  04:47, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes, as a matter of fact I did. In no particular order.

• Hamas and friends
• Al Qaeda and friends
• Taliban and friends
• Saudi Government and friends
• Advocates of Sharia Law

Inshallah, you will never have to live in a totalitarian state or face islamist terrorism, because they both really suck. Klonimus 05:36, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Still no source, I see. Do you have one, or is this just an idiosyncratic definition? —Charles P.  21:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is a synthesis of many different articles in Commentary Magazine, American Jewish Congress Monthly, Blog postings, articles/books/lectures by Victor Davis Hanson, a large personal library of books on post 9/11 etc. Basicly I'm presenting the consensus Neo-con view of what Islamofascism is.If you can come up with a better definition besides, "Pejorative Epithet applied to violent muslims who attack america and israel" lets see what it is. Klonimus 14:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think that Klonimus' list could be useful, in that in focusses on specific wishes that exist in the world of extermist Islamism. However I do not think that Islamofascism should be regarded as a term that admits definition, rather it is a polemical term whose various deployments have led its meaning to be a family resemblance concept. It is absurd to suggest that all advocates of Sharia law have all the characteristics that Klonimus listed, and some of the better fits for the term, such as the supporters of the Iranian theocracy, are very far from being Wahhabist. It should be presented as a list of the kind of characteristics that motivates use of the term, but vary in terms of centrality to the concept.

One other thing, that is stressed in the article: there is such a thing as moderate Islamism. --- Charles Stewart 08:44, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

it is a polemical term whose various deployments have led its meaning to be a family resemblance concept—Bingo. —Charles P.  21:26, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agree with Mirv. you've got the

Ok, here;s a big dicdef for you. Islamofascism (n) A term used to describe islamist movments that advocate violent jihad against percived enemies and advocate the creation of a unitary nondemocratic islamic state governed by religious authorities enforcing sharia law.

The key points being.

• Advocacy of the creation of a totalitarian islamic state governed by sharia law.
• Violent Jihad against perceived enemies internal and external.
  • Jews.
  • Western Countries and Israel
  • Apostates (I.e muslims who do not agree with the Islamofascists)

Elements of Fascism in Islamofascism.

• Violent expansionist nationalism: The emphasis on the creation of a unitary muslim state makes the movment fasicist. Note that since Islamofascists beleive there exist two nation-states, a nation of islam, and a nation of infidels. The muslim state is not geographicly limited.
• Chauvinism in the attempt to right various wrongs and insults against the muslim nation, I.e creation of israel, expulsion of Moors from spain, presence of Nonmuslims in Saudi Arabia etc.
• Totalitarian emphasis the role of ideology in every aspect of life, i.e sharia law.
• Is not anti-capitalist.
• Racial and religious intolerance

Klonimus 01:38, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The meeting of Islamists and fascists during WWII

1930s-1940s relations of islamist movements with fascists during WWII will have to be a subtopic in this article.

Klonimus 20:34, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Proposed Outline

1. Origion of the term Islamofascism

• • Post 9/11 popularity

1. Description of what people mean or implay when they use the term

• • Use as a pejoratvie epithet.
    • Use by neoconservatives and warbloggers
  • Similarities and difference between Islamism and Fascism.
  • Islamism as a totalitarian ideology
  • Motivating ideology for islamist terrorism.

1. Anti-democratic tendancy's in Islamist influence governments.

• • Saudi Arabia
  • Taliban Afghanistan
  • Northern Nigeria
  • Proposed World Caliphate

1. Islamofascism and Racism

• • Anti-semitism
  • Darfur Genocide
  • Slavery in Sudan/Saudi Arabia
  • Meetings of Grand Mufti with Nazi's

The proposal above is original research

By virtue of using an epithet to chart a history of the fascistic tendency in 20th Century Islam. Was this ever attempted —in such a way— before? El_C 08:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Islam + Fascist Tendancies = Islamofascism. Klonimus 09:45, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Negative, you've yet to demonstrate that Islamofascism is a scholarly concept/name for this topic. You can't give an epithet a meaning it dosen't yet have, even if said epithet is worded very closely to resemble such a topic. If and/or when (you prove) it does, then you can go on to depict such an account using that title. Until then, it's original research. El_C 10:31, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree with El C here; you can, of course, create any number of words using the formula: X + Fascist tendencies = Xofascism. How about 'Graecofascism'? 'Sinofascism'? 'Hindofascism'? The trouble is, having created the term, it's also easy to create a concept to go with it, and then to create a history. You don't even need to go outside the facts; there'll always be, in any nationality, race, or religion that's been around for a while, examples of people or groups acting badly. The term 'fascism' is being used in such a Usenet/school-debating-society way that that's all you need. Misplaced Pages isn't here to invent new concepts, nor to parrot whatever nonsense the U.S. neo-cons have come up with as they flail around trying to find reasons to attack other countries. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:21, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The subject is the WORD, not Islam

This is just like "Nigger". The "Nigger" article talks about the word. It is not a catalog of bad things that black people have done. Likewise, "Islamofascist" should discuss the term and should not be a catalog of bad things that Muslims have done.

If you want to write about Islamic extremism, there are other subjects for that. Mirror Vax 11:51, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, it's about the concept. This isn't a philological work, but an encyclopædia. If it were just about the word, ir would belong in Wiktionary. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:57, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is no concept "Islamofascism". The term is not used in a serious academic context, as far as I know. There is a lot that can be said about a term besides its definition. Again, see "Nigger" for an example. Mirror Vax 12:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree that there's no genuine concept (read what I said above). This article, however, is not about the word. perhaps you mean that it should be about the word. My view, however, is that the article shouldn't be here. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I disagree, Islamofascism is a real concept. It's a form of political islam with totalitarian goals and methods. Klonimus 13:43, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's a slur. Much can be said about Islamic extremism, but this is not the place. Mirror Vax 14:18, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

How do you respond the the various arguments that I've offered, here and on the VfD? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:47, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Nigger" is a real concept to Ku Klux Klan members too. --Islamist 13:48, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, it's a term used by them. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:02, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wahhabism

Firebug, your edit summary which reads I agree that Wahhabism sucks, but we can't just present these allegations as fact in a NPOV encyclopedia.) is stylistically not one that I find acceptable for an edit summary, no matter how reactionary and oppressive I find Wahhabism to be. El_C 12:22, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wow, the description of Wahhbism and Salafism was just out there. Even Fox News would know better. I'm shocked. El_C 12:29, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Orientalism is an important related term

If you understand the concept of Orientalism, you understand the prejudice and bigotry behind those who promote the term "Islamofascism". --Islamist 13:53, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As for the prejudice and bigotry behind those who promote the epithet Judeofascism (as a term) . . . El_C 14:04, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree, that's why I call for equal treatment for the two terms. Either both deleted, both directed to List of political epithets, or both with equivalently written articles. What we see on Misplaced Pages is imbalanced treatment reflecting the prevalent anti-Islamic biases of many users. --Islamist 15:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)