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Talk:Al-Manar

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Bobfrombrockley (talk | contribs) at 07:45, 15 November 2024 (→Antisemitism: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 07:45, 15 November 2024 by Bobfrombrockley (talk | contribs) (→Antisemitism: Reply)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Former good article nomineeAl-Manar was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Talk:Al-Manar/Archive 1

Removed sourced comments/Failed verification

Iran and soft power

This was removed, but I don't understand why: It is supported by the Iranian state, which uses it as part of its soft power strategies in the Arab-speaking world. The quote is in the note - it says exactly this. BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:17, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

No, the quoted text doesn't support what you added, all it says is "currently supports several Arabic-speaking TV channels like Al-Alam TV and Al-Manar". M.Bitton (talk) 18:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, “supported”, literally the word I used. BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
No, there is a huge difference between what the source says and what's quoted in green. M.Bitton (talk) 18:33, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Source 1: ““Iran has always aspired to maintain a strong presence in the Arab world to defy its regional rivals, using a variety of soft and sharp power tools. In addition, Iran has supported several TV stations to achieve its soft power ambitions in the Arab world. Iran currently supports several Arabic-speaking TV channels like Al-Alam TV and Al-Manar in addition to many other outlets.”
Source 2: “IUVM pushes content from Iranian state media and other outlets aligned with the government in Tehran across the internet, often obscuring the original source of the information such as Iran's PressTV, FARS news agency and al-Manar TV run by the Iran-backed Shi'ite Muslim group Hezbollah.“
What’s a better way of summarising that than the sentence I proposed? BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:45, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Neither of them supports the content that you added, in Misplaced Pages's voice to boot (the quote of the first doesn't and the second is a propaganda outlet that is financed by the US). Anyway, see my response below to your addition of unsourced content that you refuse to remove. M.Bitton (talk) 20:54, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing content from Iranian channels

Why do you keep inserting text that fails verification? I'm referring to this edit. M.Bitton (talk) 18:18, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley: It also sources stories from Iranian news agencies such as FARS and IRNA which part of the source that you added supports this? M.Bitton (talk) 18:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Wasn’t in the source that I added; it was in the source that was already there. I only added the bit about the formal cooperation agreement BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
You added the content (see diff), so I'm asking you: which part of the source that you added supports the content that you added? M.Bitton (talk) 18:32, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
I re-added material which I assumed you removed because you thought it was linked to the citation I added rather than the citation already there. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:24, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
But you are correct; it was not in the source that was there previously. I stand corrected. I have added a cn tag. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
You don't add unsourced content and cn tag it (especially when the content has been challenged). I suggest you self-revert. M.Bitton (talk) M.Bitton (talk) 19:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Again: It’s long standing content, not content I added. BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:00, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
You added it (I provided the diff), therefore, you own it. Are you going to self-revert? M.Bitton (talk) 20:03, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't understand what that means. The claim was added 11 years ago by Redhanker, with a primary source.
It's obviously true; we just need a secondary source for it, or use the primary source as it's an uncontroversial (one would think at least) claim that would fall under ABOUTSELF if we returned to the original source. BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
It doesn't matter one bit who added the unsourced claim, what matters is that it was challenged and you restored it while adding a source that doesn't support it. I don't need to mention WP:V, so my question is: are you going to self-revert? 20:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC) M.Bitton (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
It’s uncontroversial, true and long-standing. Isn’t it better to add a source rather than remove the content? (And the content I added, which you also removed, was straightforwardly verifiable, so no I don’t see a reason for that to go either.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
The only that is true is the fact that you violated WP:OR, WP:V and WP:ONUS (as proven above). I'm done wasting my time with this nonsense, now that you made it clear that you have no intention of self-reverting. M.Bitton (talk) 20:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Antisemitism

There is loads of sourced material in the body on antisemitism, but it's now missing fom the lead. We have so much in the body that is verifiable, this has enough weight for lead, with or without the source that was there before. BobFromBrockley (talk) 19:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea why you divided the ongoing discussion into subsections, but in any case, so let's put the "allegations of antisemitism" aside and concentrate on the serious issues that have been raised above. M.Bitton (talk) 19:34, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Antisemitism is far more serious than the more trivial issues above. There’s a huge amount of verified material about it in the body. It should be in the lead. BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:38, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Your self-serving opinion is irrelevant. M.Bitton (talk) 20:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
There’s no need for personal insults. It’s basic MoS that the lead summarises the body. BobFromBrockley (talk) 20:46, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
Describing the serious issues that I raised as trivial is insulting, so don't play that game with me. M.Bitton (talk) 20:48, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
I said “more trivial” and was referring to an issue I raised as well as an issue you raised. I am not “playing games”; I am simply asking for a topic dealt with in several paragraphs of the body to be reflected in the lead. This is clearly not a productive discussion so I hope other editors might share their opinions on the best way forward. BobFromBrockley (talk) 07:45, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. “Iran has always aspired to maintain a strong presence in the Arab world to defy its regional rivals, using a variety of soft and sharp power tools. In addition, Iran has supported several TV stations to achieve its soft power ambitions in the Arab world. Iran currently supports several Arabic-speaking TV channels like Al-Alam TV and Al-Manar in addition to many other outlets.” Elswah, Mona and Alimardani, Mahsa. "Propaganda Chimera: Unpacking the Iranian Perception Information Operations in the Arab World" Open Information Science, vol. 5, no. 1, 2021, pp. 163-174. https://doi.org/10.1515/opis-2020-0122, p.163
  2. "EXCLUSIVE-Iran-Based Political Influence Operation: Bigger, Persistent, Global". Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty. 29 August 2018. Retrieved 14 November 2024.
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