Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jeronimo (talk | contribs) at 04:04, 6 August 2002 (on my last table modification). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

All the content of this pages seemed to be dumped directly from the CIA World Factbook. I moved it to OldPage just in case there was added content. -- STG

Paul Drye,

It's a known fact that USA has participated in various wars. To name a few: Spanish War, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War and recently War against Terrorism. So, I think it's okay to specify about war. --Ramesh.

Version 2 of this page claimed a similar deleterious effect from the September 11 terrorist attacks as the Great Depression and the US Civil War. I suspect that's an exaggeration - either way, it's too early to tell. I'm not claiming that September 11 wasn't a very important event, and I mean no disrespect to the thousands who died. It's just that the other events are even more important. --Robert Merkel

I added some content to this otherwise links page. There really should be more info on this page to cover the highlights of US history, military, people, economy etc. The "subpages" should be reserved for the detailed stuff only, oh well. --maveric149, Thursday, April 18, 2002

I did some editing on the policital/government stuff, as I agree this is should not merely be a link site, especially since many of the linked pages only contain lists. jheijmans

I see you re-added Russia as a bordering country ("it's only 2.5 miles away from the Aleuts"). However close, it is not a border of course. We might as well start stating that Spain and Africa border, or England and France, Sweden and Denmark, or Yemen and Somalia. If you wish to say that Russia is close, that's ok, but it doesn't border.

Also, you might want to add Cuba, since that country actually borders the US (!), in Guantanamo Bay.

jheijmans

Like I said in the edit history, its not a big deal. However, the territorial limit of any nation is 12 natical miles with an exclusive economic zone going out to 200. Territorial waters are legally treated as the same as terra firma territory -- all laws are the same. 2.5 miles is well within the territorial waters of both Russia and the United States -- they therefore share a common border. The same is true for two bordering nations or states that are separated by a wide river or lake -- a border line is drawn in the exact middle of the body of water. Cuba and France are well beyond this 12 mile limit. Military bases and embassies are treated differently in these discussions, and the example of Guantanamo Bay is incorrect -- the land is in fact Cuban territory, we simply have a long term lease to the property that we enforce by our military presence (this was, of course, negotiated pre-Castro and we simply held it despite his protests. This legal distinction is also why we have our "detainees" there -- so that the US Constitution does not become a problem) --maveric149, Thursday, April 18, 2002

I think you are technically correct here, but that would also mean France and Britain border (Dover Strait is about 21 miles from coast to coast), and then I don't even count the Channel Islands. (Same would go for Denmark and Sweden, f.e.) However, the common idea of a border is that a land border. So, should we state that Russia has a nautical border (or whatever that is called) with US?

As for Guantanamo Bay, I mentioned this border, because it is also mentioned in the CIA World Factbook. I didn't know the dirty details of it - it's quite like the Canal Zone in Panama then? jheijmans

From New York to Wisconsin, over 700 miles, the US and Canada are separated by water, often more than 12 miles but everyone thinks of this as a border. And yes Guatanamo is like the Canal Zone was - we rented it while pointing a gun. --rmhermen

Guantanamo Bay is a very technical issue as it is Cuban soverignty but U.S. control (rented by U.S.). So I think it is not precisely true to say the U.S. has a land border with Cuba. --Daniel C. Boyer

The "Democratic Republic" of the United States of America. Is it part (with the Democratic People's Republic of Korea) of the "axis of evil"? --Daniel C. Boyer

This problem is still unresolved. "Democratic republic" has a different meaning than (and a meaning perhaps the opposite of) what the words mean separately. --Daniel C. Boyer

"After the European discovery of America by Christopher Columbus in 1492..." -- This is highly debatable as it ignores Viking visits almost 500 years prior. This should be clarified/expanded. Daniel C. Boyer

Those don't really count; knowledge of the new continent did not spread much at that time, and the settlements were very short-lived. In other words, an isolated incident that shares little or no continuity with the widely-known, (so far) permanent awareness and exploitation of the continent by Europeans sparked by Columbus's failed voyage to India. Since the context is the colonization from which the United States directly grew, there's no point in mentioning the Vikings there; certainly not in a general overview section. --Brion VIBBER

Maybe putting ``discovery in the text would help clarifying that it wasn't really a discovery? I otherwise agree with Brion. Jeronimo 01:03 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)

The following was formerly in Talk:United States of America/Temp:

Brion, are you sure there's no official language in the USA? I think all government writing is in English and that English has to be taught at schools. Or is that really only "de facto", as you say? That's kind of surprising to me then, and I've never seen it like that in any encyclopedia or other source. Can you clarify? Jheijmans 00:08 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

Yep, there is no official language of the US -- just as you say a de facto one. --mav 00:13 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

Correct; it's a little weird, but there is no de jure official language of the United States. (Pay no heed to the rumor that German missed becoming the official language by one vote.) --Brion VIBBER 00:24 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

OK, so I can learn something from Misplaced Pages as well :-) This should then be explained in the upcoming "demography" section, where of course the rise of the Spanish language should also be mentioned, I suppose.

However, maybe it's convenient then to drop the "official" from the table, or add a footnote, or else it may be strange for other "ignorant people" (like me). OR is an explanation in the article enough? Jheijmans

Well, there's no sense in leaving the information out; English is the language that laws are passed in, that government services are always provided in (though service in other languages is often provided additionally -- if I spoke only Spanish I'd do just fine at the Social Security office), and that most education is in. Buuut, it's not really the official language, so we need the "de facto" disclaimer.

Actually, we probably should have an article on the official language issue and the English-only movement, which could be conveniently linked from the table. --Brion VIBBER

Just a curious question about this then: is it possible to go to a school in the US, and not learn English (in theory, not in practice, I hope)? Jheijmans

Well, go to school yeah. Graduate, I'm not so sure. ;) Generally if you don't speak English you'll get dumped into some kind of bilingual education system, of which there are a huge variety ranging from heavy immersion into English to keep-the-kids-in-their-safe-native-language-environment-as-long-as-possible. The site I linked above should have a lot of info on this if you're really interested. --Brion VIBBER

Absolutely. Particularly in California, at least until a few years ago, there were quite a few public schools that taught classes in Spanish, Mandarin, Vietnamese, and Tagalog. California voters decided they didn't much like that and got rid of it. But there are still many private schools. It's not uncommon at all for residents of, say, East Los Angeles or San Francisco's Chinatown to live their whole lives without speaking enough English for basic conversation. Several individual states have passed resolutions declaring English the "official" language of the state, but even in most of those you can get voter registration forms and such in Spanish. And there is no federal law. In fact, such a law would probably be ruled unconstitutional. --LDC

Wow, this country never ceases to amaze me (not always in a positive sense, mind you) - even more so when I was there earlier this month. But to get back on Misplaced Pages issues: Brion, I think an article on the legal status of English in the US of A would indeed be very useful (the text you linked would be a great starter if it were uncopyrighted) and easy to link to from the table. Jheijmans 00:48 Jul 24, 2002 (PDT)

I've linked it to a stub page at Languages in the United States (if that title's too awkward, suggestions are welcome). Feel free to use the aforementioned Language Policy site as a source of information, but it's not even vaguely NPOV so you wouldn't want to copy stuff directly out of it even if it weren't copyrighted. --Brion VIBBER 00:36 Jul 25, 2002 (PDT)

(end of the former Talk:United States of America/Temp)

Great job to everyone who labored on the new version of the USofA article. It looks great! --mav 00:16 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)

Thanks, though I hope some actual Americans will step in to add to my texts, some of it is pretty lame, I think. This leaves the problem of the naming of the article though - should it be at United States or not? Jeronimo

Yes it should -- There is no reason why the USofA gets to be at its full name when every other country is listed at its conventional short form. I will make the move it nobody objects. However, this will require me to first delete the redirect page United States so nobody freak out. --mav

Just to remind: the links to all the "subpages" and CIA stuff should also be changed if you do make the change. I promise I won't freak out (c: Jeronimo 00:27 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)

I haven't yet moved the CIA intro or gov / pages because I don't know what to name these. How do the gov CIA pages relate to the "politics of" sub articles? --mav

I would imagine that the "Government" and "Transnational Issues" sections would sort of fit under "Politics of". --Brion VIBBER

As for the introduction page, this is what was usually put on the main country page. Since - I think - we have a good replacement for that, there's no need to keep it. As for the government; this should be covered at Politics of the United States I think.

I myself am not sure about the former "Transnational Issues", now, "Foreign relations". Isn't this something to put at History and/or Politics? Jeronimo 00:59 Jul 29, 2002 (PDT)

Can somebody fix this page? It spans the entire page and fills the right margin so you can't get to the links on the right column. -- Zoe

Seems okay to me. I'm using Mozilla 1.1beta at 800X600 on Windows 98SE, what browser, OS and resolution are you using? Bryan Derksen

I'm using IE 6.0.2 and Windows Me. It fills the entire page. How do I do a screen shot? -- Zoe

Same problem with W98/MSIE6/800x600/Cologne Blue skin.

Links are floating over the text because of both the picture width and the data table, but I believe that if the first sentences could be closed into a new table of fixed width (thinner and higher), normal wide text (as large as the picture) could follow readably below the end of right links.

Now, what width should this table have to be readable in every configuration? Would it be better to move the picture to a separate page?gianfranco

The issue here is that the table is way I mean way too fat. We shouldn't try to fix this by HTMLing the text -- we need to fix the table. --mav

I tried to remove the picture, and it works now. IMHO, that image should be reduced in width or moved to a separate page. --Gianfranco

I tried to replace the original picture with a .png one large 580 (136kb), and I hope it works well with a 640x480 resolution too (please, let us know), then I tried a .jpg one, still large 580 but 110kb less (19kb). Of course, the .jpg one is evidently less precise. In case this width is agreed, which format would it be better to use? --Gianfranco

I restored the cellpadding of the table, since that makes the table readable, I also made the table width smaller again by improving the size of the cells that hold the images. The width is not determined by the national motto row, maybe it can be put in two rows (using
)? Jeronimo 04:04 Aug 6, 2002 (PDT)