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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Peter Lee (talk | contribs) at 22:37, 7 June 2005 (→Lower case and remarks on vandalism). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Sensei Shukumine's involvement in Genseiryu after 1962

In 1962 Shukumine sensei introduced a further development of Genseiryu which he named Taido. Taido is not to be regarded as Karate, but as a new martial art. This new Budo has a lot of acrobatic movements such as sommersaults and flips. Since leaving Genseiryu in 1962, Shukumine sensei only held a friendly relation with his former students/masters of Genseiryu, but he never took actual part in neither teaching nor examinations.

This is also stated by a Taido-ka, I have contacted. "Officially, Taido was started in 1965 and that is also when he definately left Genseiryu." This is a part of what he wrote te me.

Between the period 1962 and 1965 he completed the five basic principels of Taido, especially the TEN en NEN movements." In the World Taido Championships in Okinawa in 2001, Saiko Shihan asked to the highest Genseiryu senseis (Tosa and others) to convert to Taido." This is also what the Taido-ka wrote to me! So please, for those who are writing untrue stories, back those stories up with true arguments. -- Zzaroc 17:58, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry to say Mr.Tosa was not invited to that championship. So what you are telling is not true. Sensei Shukumine never had any contact with Tosa after Tosa turned his back on him and started his own commercial Karate organization. Please see also Sensei Shukumine's personal message at a training seminar in The Netherlands with Sensei Kanai and Sensei Konno. Please see the pictures on the Genseiryu website: Taido and Genseiryu people united to celebrate 55 years Genseiryu - 40 years Taido and to commemorate Sensei Shukumine. Besides that there are pictures of Sensei Shukumine teaching several Genseiryu Teachers like Genseiryu Head Instructor Sensei Kanai in Genseiryu Head dojo situated in Ito Japan in 1996. 212.127.137.2 19:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Were you at the championship or something?

So, if Mr. Tosa never had any contact with Mr. Shukumine after 1962, then please explain these picturse of Mr. Tosa and Mr. Shukumine together on the Brazilian Genseiryu website . -- Zzaroc 22:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry I didn't say Sensei Shukumine had any contact after 1962. I said he didn't had any contact after Sensei Tosa turned his back to Sensei Shukumine. This was after Sensei Shukumine wrote the preface for sensei Tosa's book about Genseiryu Butokukai. And yes I was present at the championship in Okinawa amongst other Genseiryu practitioners from Spain, Denmark, Holland, and Japan. I will try to give also a link with pictures of that event. I need a little time for that I am not an Internet black belt sorry for that. 212.127.137.2 22:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You don't have to be a black belt, when your good, by the way. But take your time, I am patient.

But I was wondering. Mr. Tosa published his book in 1984, but there still a picture of him together with Mr. Shukumine in 1985 (I mean those pictures on the Brazilian site). Then there are still a few questionmarks.

But by the way, did you know that Mr. Tosa received several letters all over the world, just after Mr. Shukumine died? Those letters were asked for permission if some dojo's could join the organization of Mr. Tosa. Mr. Tosa denied these people to join his organization.

There was one person who send such a letter to Mr. Tosa from Holland, and you may guess who.

And I have got also another question. Mr. Seiken Shukumine past away to an hart attack. But when did he started to get ill? -- Zzaroc 23:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No a black belt is not needed to have a certain skill. But in most occasion it shows an amount of training effort,time. And as you probably know training effort makes you become more skillfull.

I don't know when Mr. Tosa turned his back to sensei Shukumine so maybe my remark that they didn't had any contact shouldn't be done by me because I am not aware of that specific date. So I apologize for that. But I heard this occured in the mid till end '80s.

No, I didn't know that Mr. Tosa received several letters from all over the world. I know he claimed to get a letter from Holland. I know he received one which was delivered by someone from Denmark. But I know that the letter was completely different from what is claimed by Mr. Tosa. That is also easy to believe if you are member of a Genseiryu organization in Ito which was directly connected to sensei Shukumine where Sensei Shukumine still gave, in very few occasions, lectures about Genseiryu (pictures are on the way (few days necessary)). So you can imagine you don't beg for acknowledgement by Mr. Tosa who only wants you to train his way, which is very near to Shotokan with the basic kata of Shotokan. This dojo in Holland is not interested in any connection with Mr. Tosa. For what reason, if you want to train Genseiryu the same way as sensei Shukumine taught his students? The Head Instructor of this organization is now Sensei Kanai one of the first students of Sensei Shukumine. In Sensei Shukumine's book "Shin Karatedo Kyohan" there are several pictures of teachers who are still in this group. I met them during the celebrating anniversary of Taido and Genseiryu beginning of this year (Jan. 2005). Many nice teachers who still respect Sensei Shukumine, as should be in the relationship with teacher and student.

I was never involved with the sickness of Sensei Shukumine and I don't like to talk about his sickness. I met Mr. Shukumine one time and talked a little bit with him. In Okinawa I only met him from a distance. So I am sorry I can't anwer this question for I didn't have such a close relationship with Sensei Shukumine. -- 212.127.137.2 06:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not intending to edit this, knowing nothing about the subject, but the article should be moved to Genseiryu to keep the case consistent. DJ Clayworth 01:11, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I did this. Maybe the preferred spelling is Gensei-Ryu, Gensei Ryu or Gensei-ryu, but GENSEIRYU is not. DJ Clayworth 01:47, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lower case and remarks on vandalism

I see. I changed it to Lower case. No problem. But using the hyphen for the name is wrong. It is a way someone who is not familiar with the writing sometimes adhere to. By this way of writing the uninitiated can sometimes better relate to Genseiryu. But it has been changed according to your argumentation (DJ Clayworth).

Anyway, I agree that discussions are not vandalism, of course not. But when the same person, hiding behind multiple accounts created for the sole purpose of forcing his twisted views onto others by writing his false propaganda, which he very well know is untrue, then that is considered to be destructive - thus it is pure vandalism. For example. If I, say in math, claims that 2+2=10, then everybody would know this to be untrue. But because only a few here at the Misplaced Pages site actually know anything about Genseiryu, then I risk being accused of vandalism, simply because I correct the text into holding only true information. Back to my example, the only thing I do is changing the math from 2+2=10 into 2+2=4. We learned math in school, but unfortunately nobody learned Genseiryu in school. My background in Genseiryu can be seen on a great many sites all over the world. In Japan, only one organization (having roots back to the beginning in 1953) is admitted as Genseiryu (see here: . If you follow the Genseiryu site, you will end here: . Then, if you take a look at the branch section , you will se my name under Denmark. In this regard I see no Mario anywhere at all (or even Konno, who is Mario's instructor in Holland). As I have said on many occasions, written, posted on so many sites worldwide, the Dutch section of Genseiryu is headed by Mr. Willem Varenkamp currently undergoing formal admission preparations after having earned his way through years of dedication to the Genseiryu art since the year 2000. No other person in Holland, regardless of claims saying otherwise, have ever been, is or will ever become members of the Genseiryu organisation, unless they earn their way of course. But see for yourself at both the above and below mentioned sites.

Much more information on Genseiryu can be found here: Denmark , Japan , Holland , Australia , India

Attempts to smear these facts, adding heresay or down right slander and other sorts of accusations to the text, hiding behind the acts of "undergoing major edit" etc. is in my dictionary only one thing: Vandalism. And the Misplaced Pages System Admins should put an end to this promptly, or simply remove any text regarding Genseiryu from their servers. As a courtesy to the folks not knowing what vandalism is, I took the liberty of finding an English to English dictionary about it. It says: VANDALISM (n), destruction, defacing, graffiti, mischief, ravaging, ruin, sacking, smashing, trashing, wreckage, wrecking. I believe destruction of truth is also vandalism, even though no handheld property was damaged.

Indeed, Mario has been "working" on his "major edit" for days now. I believe his "edit" is not an edit. It is just more lies and false propaganda, and putting this "keep hands off the text" flag on it, just keeps his text being public longer. It is simply a trick. He has been "working" on it for days now, but when will it ever be finished? I say, that Mario uses this "keep hands off", only as a way to keep me from editing it back to its original form, by removing his lies and false propaganda including slander and false accusations. Because of Mario's actions, of course I do not intend to sit back and "enjoy" the show. If indeed he had something truthful to say, I would prefer his edits to be without the slander and accusations as he is so keenly posting time and time again.

Lastly. I have been with the martial arts since the age of ten (I am now going on 34), and I have been awarded the rank of 5th dan as the only one in Europe ever. I guess I need not say much more than that? Mario is a student, who have som wicked idea of his own believes. He has not yet proved himself in any way within the Genseiryu community. His vandalism and accusations even got him banned for 48 hours at the GENSEIRYU® FORUM, , as he would not stop his slander and false propaganda there. I guess he hates it, but then he should adhere to the truth, and start acting as a sincere and responsible person, taking responsibility for all his actions regardless. I simply wonder when that would ever happen.