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Can we use this page to discuss the suggested policy, not specific cases? Kokiri 1 July 2005 19:30 (UTC)

East Sea/Sea of Japan

This is a good start, but unfortunately it misses a key point. The article says:

The body of ocean water between Korea and Japan is called the East Sea by Koreans and the Sea of Japan by Japanese. Which is right? Misplaced Pages refuses to say.

We do quite rightly refuse to say which is right - but note that the article is located at Sea of Japan, not East Sea. In other words we don't say which is right but we do select one name to take priority. There's no way around this, as MediaWiki won't allow one article to have two equal names (rather than one priority name and multiple redirections). So the question then becomes, which name should take priority?

I've already suggested that we should set objective criteria for deciding on naming priorities. The following is adapted from User:ChrisO/Naming disputes:

Misplaced Pages cannot take a position on whether the use of a name is legal or whether the user of the name is a legal entity. We are not international lawyers, nor are we bound by treaties, laws or any other legal obligations to call something X rather than Y. Nor can we take a position on whether the use of a name is morally right or wrong. Doing either – declaring that a name usage is legal/illegal, or right/wrong – is a violation of the NPOV policy.

We can, however, apply three key principles to determine what term should be used as the title for an article in the Misplaced Pages namespace:

* The most common use of a name takes precedence;

* If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;

* If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or official usage:

* Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations)

* Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution)

* Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term)

* If an historic name is mentioned in the article, is it in an accurate context? (check that the term is not used anachronistically, e.g. using France to describe Roman Gaul)

Subjective criteria (such as "moral rights" to a name) should not be used to determine usage. These include:

* Does the subject have a moral right to use the name?

* Does the subject have a legal right to use the name?

* Does the name infringe on someone else's legal or moral rights?

* Is the use of the name politically unacceptable?

If a dispute over naming rights exists, it should be described in the article, but it should not be the deciding factor in determining where the article exists in the namespace. Locating the article at an obscure or little-used name makes it considerably harder to find, and if it is done for subjective reasons (e.g. because someone does not like the common term for moral or political reasons), it is clearly not consistent with Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy.

Note that these principles and criteria support the current placing of the Sea of Japan article:

• "Sea of Japan" is clearly the most commonly used name in English;
• the official name is disputed, so no judgment can be reached there;
• the subject is an inanimate object, so has no self-identifying term (obviously);
• we don't take a position on whether the name is morally or politically correct, so that factor can't be used to judge where to place the article.

The only factor that survives is common usage, so the article is correctly placed at Sea of Japan on this basis. The advantage of having a set of criteria is that we can reach these decisions without getting into POV fights over moral rights to a name. It also creates a level playing field for resolving all such disputes. -- ChrisO 11:44, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are we having an argument? I didn't read all that word-for-word, but I think we're in agreement. And I appreciate your staunch and well-reasoned defense of NPOV. I think the article remain at "Sea of Japan" simply because it got the most Google hits.

I don't think this is an objective criterion but more a practical one. We put articles where people can find them, but we don't use article names as endorsements of entity names.

I'm grappling for a way to resolve Japan Sea / East Sea, as well as the Macedonia and Macedonian Slav issues as well. I think between you and me, we have enough brain power to settle this in a way that all contributors will be content. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 01:35, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

I think we have the brain power! Unfortunately I don't think we can ever ensure that everyone will be content given that place and ethnic names are so tied up with nationalist feelings. But I do think we can at least reduce the impression of unfairness in naming articles by ruling particular criteria in or out at the start.

Here's how I'd tackle the two questions you raise, East Sea/Sea of Japan and Macedonians/Macedonian Slavs. I've transferred the criteria mentioned above into a table so that we can assign scores to the outcome of each, as follows:

Criterion	Option 1 Sea of Japan	Option 2 East Sea
1. Most commonly used name in English	1	0
2. Current official name of entity †	0	0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity †	0	0
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores. † Use English translation of name, where available

"Sea of Japan" comes out with a score of 1 while "East Sea" scores 0. "Sea of Japan" wins due to its widespread conventional usage. The article name should thus be "Sea of Japan".

Criterion	Option 1 Macedonians (people) ‡	Option 2 Macedonian Slavs
1. Most commonly used name in English	1	0
2. Current official name of entity †	1	0
3. Current self-identifying name of entity †	1	0
1 point = yes, 0 points = no. Add totals to get final scores. † Use English translation of name, where available ‡ Disambiguation is required to distinguish between the multiple meanings of this term.

"Macedonians (people)" is the clear winner, with a score of 3 versus 0 for "Macedonian Slavs". "Macedonians (people)" should be the article name in this case.

How would you feel about using this kind of mechanistic approach to deciding article names? -- ChrisO 28 June 2005 20:18 (UTC)

The latter example suggests to me that this version, at any rate, doesn't work, as it gives a counter-intuitive result. Part of the probelm, though, might be the data; it's not at all clear that there is a most common way of referring to this group in English (and in many other cases this will be the subject of much dispute, as different conventtions are used in different places and among different groups).

I'd also want to add a reference to the use of the options to name other things. So, for example, if "Macedonians" is commonly used to refer to a different, largely unrelated group (such as the people ruled by Philip and Alexander), that's a significant factor.

Note that there's a tension between including: Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution) and Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term) while excluding: Is the use of the name politically unacceptable? This surely impinges on Misplaced Pages's need to stay neutral; if a group or nation uses a term to describe itself, but that self-description is disputed by another group or nation, isn't choosing one or the other likely to indicate that we've taken a position on the matter? I'm not saying that this prevents us from choosing one or the other, only that it should be taken into account.

As with other areas (in the philosophy of science, for example — the raven paradox, etc.), sticking to a mechanical, formal approach is likely to lead to serious problems. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 29 June 2005 11:19 (UTC)

I do believe that, there is a most common way of referring to this group in English - Talk:Macedonian_Slavs/Poll#Resources. As for other things named "Macedonians", there are plenty of disambiguating options: Ancient Macedonians (for the people of Alexander the Great), Macedonian Greeks, Macedonian Bulgarians (for the inhabitants of the wider region), Macedonians (nation), Macedonians (people) for people X. I think that the Is the use of the name politically unacceptable? criteria is properly excluded, because it is a subjective criteria. What is politically unacceptable? Subject X might find to be politically unnaceptable to call subject Y some name, even if Subject A,B,C find that name perfectly acceptable. Actually, only Greece finds it politically unacceptable to call people X "Macedonians". Even if we include that criteria, the use of "Macedonian Slavs" is also politically unacceptable by the Republic of Macedonia. In fact, the use of "Macedonian Slavs" has aroused more political tensions than the use of "Macedonians". International organizations and governments commonly use the term "Macedonians". The only attempt to somehow officialize the term "Macedonian Slavs" happened in the Council of Europe, a mass NGO action and an official political reaction from RoM followed, and the whole thing ended as a somewhat shameful attempt to impose a Greek POV to a credible institution such as CoE. (Walter Schwimmer ended up denying that such a document even existed). I think that this mechanical approach works perfectly when it comes to sensitive political and religious issues, (which constitute the majority of the naming disputes. I don't know about other fields, perhaps it will work well there, also. --FlavrSavr 29 June 2005 13:41 (UTC)

Coming up with a more detailed policy for resolving naming disputes is probably worthwhile. Though flexibility is needed - hard cases make bad law as they say. But isn't it missing the point? The problem on Macedonian Slavs (and no doubt elsewhere) is people voting nationalistically and without reference to the sensible guidelines already there at the top of the page. Refining the guidelines won’t help. If more detailed guidelines were in place (or indeed if some cunning compromise was on the table) there are so many people interested that a vote would surely still have happened, and it would still have had the same inconclusive (and arguably unfair) result. What will it be like when Misplaced Pages is bigger, and there are serious organised voting campaigns on each side? I know it's radical thinking - but some kind of panel just has to be the way of the future in cases like this – just as you proposed at User:ChrisO/Naming disputes. How does one make it happen? I am new to Misplaced Pages so I'd be glad to hear. --Cjnm 29 June 2005 15:15 (UTC)

Most common use

Two things here: (1) in the case of Sea of Japan/East Sea (as an example), we agreed last year or so, that the most common English use is context dependent. We're still struggling over this, but I think the possibility of context dependency needs to be addressed. To give an example (disputed): We could argue that in the context of Korea-related articles, the most common English name is East Sea, whereas in other contexts it is Sea of Japan. (2) I wish to include the statement that the Google test is a bad test (it excludes everything outside Google's index, including most published books), that it needs to be set on English results only (and that this is imperfect); but for practical reasons it is one of the few checks we can easily verify. Kokiri 1 July 2005 19:30 (UTC)

Strange...Kokiri, in a post just above you requested that we not discuss specific cases and here you are discussing specific cases. Anyways, that is moot point and i am not bashing or flaming you for that. I just wanted to point it out. Anyways, you said that "we agreed last year or so, that the most common English use is context dependent" I have searched high and low for that agreement and I haven't found it. Maybe i am missing it (probably as there are a lot of pages to sift through). As you are so fond of pointing out, it is in Korean contexts written in Korean-English, not English English, that uses East Sea over Sea of Japan. We are looking for the most common name in English and by far the most common name in English (and other languages) around the world is Sea of Japan. As I have pointed out here Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (Korean)/Disputed names, Koreans are using false propaganda to promote the name East Sea. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't propaganda extremely POV? I see no problem using East Sea in cultural and historical references that are context dependent, but I fail to see how geography in English is context dependent. Geographic names in English are pretty cut and dry and geographically speaking, in the English language, the most common name is in fact, "Sea of Japan". I wish, just once that you would give a reason other than "East Sea is the most common name in Korea" to support your arguments because that one argument doesn't hold water here on Misplaced Pages. In Italy, the most common name for Rome is Roma, but the English name is Rome. Misplaced Pages seems to have no problems using Rome instead of Roma for the name of the city, even though both Rome and Roma are found in English writings everywhere.

On a side note, I agree that the google test is not a great one. It can help, but it isn't a great test. Why? Because propaganda can spread pretty quick on the net and if enough people got together, they can spread any name on the net that they like tipping the balance of the scales away from reputable sources.Masterhatch july 2nd, 2005

• East Sea - (links to it)
• Sea of Japan - (links to it)

Manual of Style

I think this page might be useful (as a summary), but it really needs links to all the relevant sections in the Misplaced Pages manual of style. Most said here is also (already) written there. Kokiri 1 July 2005 19:30 (UTC)

Examples

I am very excitied with this new proposal. This can be very effective tool in dealing with naming disputes, some of which have been around for years. I think it is best to let the page talks about what we should not what we have been doing. So I made some revision with a hope to strengthen its potential. For example, I removed

Names may be disputed for nationalist, political or religious reasons. Common causes of naming disputes include: ...

While I agree this is true, I don't think it is a good idea to include this, as to me it sounds like accusing contributors. Saying what you are doing is wrong, so instead do this, isn't a good idea to let people help themselves. I also removed some controversial examples like sea of Japan. There is no need for us to be in agreement on this issue in writing this proposal. Finally, it is needless to repeat that we have to be objective in naming. Also, this sounded negative; we should not treat each of us as if he doesn't know he has to be objective.

As you should see from you edits, I also add why this procedure is so important as to explain why we need this and why traditional, consensus-based practices fail.

I tried to be very careful but if there is a problem, please correct me, especially if sentences I added are confusing. -- Taku July 2, 2005 15:31 (UTC)

Common usage (2)

How do we define "common usage" here ? Specifically, how is it determined which usage is more common ? A simple google search ? Some more complex research ? This needs to be more specifically explained. Wojsyl 2 July 2005 20:57 (UTC)

Framing the Proper Cultural Context of Common Use

• On the above point, simplestic google searches are certainly contraindicated. Someone needs to get off their butts and survey printed textual references, in addition. Some cases will simply prove that other editors have faced the same delema, and come down on both sides of the issue. The real problem, then becomes the criteria by which people weight such references, and whether or not there is some common ground. In the Tsushima Islands naming issue, there is/was no give on either side, but at least the locals had a POV, and that is proper I think for such a case. User:Fabartus || Talkto_FrankB 5 July 2005 23:54 (UTC)

• Following Below is 'A Duplicate' of what I posted earlier on the "Sea of Japan/East Sea" controversy on todays "Village Pump" Link. I think it germane for obvious reasons (I hope! <G>) so copy it here. The 'lead in' refers to the subpage Division (TOC) immediately above in that post where one party introduced the novel idea that the past has no impact on today!
• To me, the general arguements are something that are going to occur over and over unless a clear guideline gives a way out; my solution is to consider the majority of users by recognizing the correct cultural context is not local, but the world wide body of English speaking readers, most of whom are mainly ignorant of another language and the use then of what they most expect. That's a fair definition of 'Common Usage'; Note that 'Official Changes' sans important POV disputes, are quickly available in Atlases, which have the paid editorial staffs to follow such matters. (i.e. When Ceylon became Sri Lanka, or Peking became Beijing, such happened virtually overnight, and appeared in new works immediately.

• In otherwords, 'The Principle of Least Surprise' needs be considered as an appropriate contextual anchor; in the 'overnight' cases, there was a consensus to follow the wishes of the people in question; that can't apply when there are squabbles between two or more. In such cases, we need to consider our own cultural context, not that of one of the disputants, and that should be policy; That doesn't require Wiki to take sides, but merely shortstop such as unproductive, and note they are arguements for another forum— not this one. As an aside, it would of course help if we had some binding arbitration or mediation committees, but that rants is beyond the scope of this discussion.

I began by duplicating my effort on a bottom post, though wrote addressing a point midway in that discussion on the Village Pump (Heading 'The Past is Irrelevant'):

Related proposal

My proposal on Misplaced Pages:Homophora deals with cultural usage in not just article names, but also within articles although I see the conflict mainly occuring in article names. The conventions I proposed might be of some help here, or at least provide some additional ideas in dealing with the problem. --Ben 02:18, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Such Disputes Are Part of a Wider WAR

Have to strongly disagree that past references are irrelavant. Wiki must be made compatible with extant hundreds of thousands of volumes of published English language source materials. If someone is reading 'CMH' Winner Richard Dick O'Kane's 'Clear the Bridge (rereleased in 1996) or any book with a historical basis whether for entertainment or study and wants more information on a term like Sea of Japan, or Yellow Sea, the article title must usually be the most common name in the corpus of extant literature, until such a time as there is an official world wide switch over to something more locally palatable as noted following.

• Moreover, There CLEARLY seems to be a concerted Nationalist rooted series of edit wars where it's Korea Vs Japan, with we who have English as our only language caught in the middle: See Tsushima Islands, Tsushima Strait, history pages as well as move and merge tags and talk pages for arguements, I've seen a few others with at least some of the same players. This is nasty ethnic stuff with strong grounds of cultural clash deep seated in historic events. And the reader is cautioned these same editors are appearing in these and other disputes.) These are not issues unique to the tensions of the Far East either, but span much of Africa and Asia, and as such need a systematic and widespread solution, not case by case treatment sans sufficient guidelines.
• The first paragraph of all articles with alternate names should eventually contain equivilent 'terms in dispute' out of respect to the diverse cultures that may access Misplaced Pages since English is an internationally studied language, just as those same introductory sentences must contain older and historic names that once applied. In the later case, those historic handles once widely applied should be in the first sentence, not just the first paragraph, but working in a reference to explain a disputed name, would be complicated at best in grammer most of the time were both alternate types needfully be present, where the first sentence or two or three has the primary purpose of introducing the topic, not splitting fine hairs. A clever editor may be able to do so in the first sentence, especially if there is only one or two historical names (not even counting foreign names and their various alternatives in the locally relavant languages), but I would urge clarity and readability over 'cultural nods' for the sake of nicety.
• Wiki MUST contain appropriate redirects to said articles from any and all such names embodied in Western literature (Which test references like East Sea may not pass at all.), regardless of any new fashion or term that has now become common or defacto international standard, or our search engine will miss the equivilence. Consider for example that the 'official place names' of Port Arthur and Dalian have each had four or five 'official' names adopted as the latest new 'fashion' during the past century. (or less changable Ceylon and Sri Lanka among hundreds of others now 'In Fashion'.). The enclycopedia links must allow someone to use the old fashioned name to get to the correct article. Using East Sea when it's not a common useage, is POV, not practical as the article name. Having it redirect so that a literal translation of the appropriate Korean phrase makes culturally sensitive sense, as changing the whole article name does not when there is a dispute. Same with assertions to merge the Korea Strait with Tsushima Strait, where the latter is a famous and much used reference, even if common practice of the UN or other 'official body' has allowed a 'Korea Strait' into the lexicon to satisfy some nationalistic pride. It may be equally likely that Korea Strait is the older term, but that publishing history has marginalized it in English text. It makes no matter, so long as Misplaced Pages gives fair coverage to both (provided both terms are in widespread non-local use). When the terms use is a wish of a single minority of the worlds population, one outnumbered by English native speakers, precedence must be given to the wider and more commonly used term. For example, some Western publications do not aknowledge 'Korea Strait' at all, whereas 'Tsushima Strait' is famous as the site of one of history's most important modern battles (Battle of Tsushima) and widely referenced as its widespread multi-decades-long impact is culturally important for both East and West as an indirect casus belli of WW-II. Similarly,that and the First Sino-Japanese War is still reverberating within Misplaced Pages, as these latest Korean attempts to rename a Western article attest. Other examples abound round the world in their own emotionally laden cotexts, and these need be recognized as more of the same cloth.
• The Nationalistic or cultural POV in these matters AND 'the inevititable' cultural bias needs to remain Anglo-centric in an English reference work, and these cultural issues (Islam vs. Hindu, The Balkans, Greater Anatolia, issues to name a few others) must eventually be addressed by a policy yet to be written) that is fair to all national or cultural sensibilities as much as possible, (IMHO, that ideal is not at all possible literally— some of these cultures don't view freedoms at all like we do, so I don't want to be the one making a draft attempt! <G>). But in the main, the article itself should be named to what the English speaking world traditionally uses or used, as English is central to our culture, not an abstraction off to the side somewhere. In the case over whether Tsushima is an Island or Island's' (very silly, albeit both sides have thier points), the extant literature divides close enough to be called a tie. In such cases, the inhabitants prefered name should be used, even if we at Wiki then may break with say Brittanica or Columbia Encyclopedias— for there are others using the same tense, however we come down, and our discussions are on the record and open to theirs for consideration in their future editions.
• OTOH, Seas do not have towns of inhabitants, so traditional English useage should apply. (At least until one learns to read and write Cetaceaish.)
• If Korean groups want to alter English publishing practices, the historical references still outweigh any new name until a preponderence of publishers (X>90%) of Atlases, and nautical charts start using such a name (e.g. the noveau term BoHai Sea), at which time Wiki would be correct to follow suite, or even lead many in the changeover, but not before, and not because some other ethnic group opposes the alternative like Japanese nationalists; but solely because it's become or is becomming common useage in the English speaking nations.
• In sum, we shouldn't culturally demand they change their own practices within their language, but they they are asking us to change ours, inappropriately, IMHO. The proper attitude is that the English name maps onto the object of the same name and must be figured to be an incorrect translation, not a cultural insult. We are sensative to and sympatheic with their viewpoint, but have our own culture as a guide, and that must be a bellweather in picking such names. Having them ask us to alter our cultural term to suite their bias is as nonsensical and selfish as it would be for us to ask them to change their term in their language to match ours. It's not their history, nor their language we are trying to change, which cannot be said for their efforts here in Misplaced Pages; they want to force us to use their prefered name, to score points in the long Japanese-Korea feud, and to toss aside hundreds of volumes of references to our long established cultural name in the same breath. When their Korean or Japanese becomes our language, then we can kowtow to such an unreasonably narrow viewpoint as well, but before that, our culture needs to be aknowledged as the one linked to English, not theirs— which translations usually heavily depend on whatever alliterative scheme the translator favors. (e.g. One Russian Admiral's name in the Battle of Tsushima can be translated correctly to six different and widely varying spellings in English; See that Talk for elaboration.) We can and should include their cultural bias when possible, for it costs little to be sensitive and courteous, but we must equally insist that they accept reasonable compromises in the same spirit of civility and cross-cultural compromise. These hardline wars with little significance directly in English culture are clearly harming Wiki just because they consume so many manhours when there is not any right answer universal to all cultures.
• As an English language publication the key for us must be historical relevance assuming it (the name) still has current occurences and use in the practices of other reputable publishers (Not Web Pages) not based on one groups cultrual wishes otherwise (albeit with an understandable POV axe to grind); in the end, we are merely using one of several alternate handles, not one of which means much outside it's own cultural context. In sum, if and when common practice among english Publications is to conform to widespread practices like the change in my life to Beijing, not Bejing (or instead of Peping or Peking) or to use Busan instead of Fusan or Pusan, then and only then should our article alter have it's name changed to the new de facto standard. Our edge in such is that we can conform nearly instantly with such widespread and disconnective changes by writing a redirect and adding a note in the article itself that the new preferred name is _______. But moving the article to __________ should at least wait until permanently published references, periodicals and newspapers are showing the new term half the time or more.
  • Moreover, as an added caution, Misplaced Pages methods of dispute handling break down in these ethnico-nationalist-cultural clashes, because they assume that all parties are exercising both 'mature judgement' and 'good faith'; whereas in reality, these disputants are instead voicing intensely internalized POV, albeit well intended from within their own cultural outlook; but within ours are at best misapplications of our rules and guidelines to further the underlying and even unconscious cultural bias and resentments underneath. It must be kept in mind that this is an English Language and cultural oriented publication, no matter how nice it may be to give such non-inuse terms a nod, that they are not in use, should be the final word.

User:Fabartus || Talkto_FrankB 5 July 2005 22:19 (UTC) (Slight typo fixes here) User:Fabartus || Talkto_FrankB 5 July 2005 23:54 (UTC)

Names in articles

As it stands, this page doesn't really address the particular issues affecting use of names in other articles (for example, how Korea-related articles refer to the Sea of Japan, or Prussia-related articles to the city of Gdansk). In my mind, that is the area that really needs a policy. A number of hot disputes have arisen recently -- Gdansk/Danzig, Sea of Japan/East Sea, BC/BCE. All are primarily concerned not with article names but with usage in specific contexts.

The omission makes it seem that usage in articles should be governed by the same rules that govern article naming. I think that is very problematic. Dealing with naming disputes in specific contexts, we can no longer afford to follow the convenient fallacy of equating questions of naming to questions of fact.

That said, this is a good start. Let's keep working on these issues! -- Visviva 6 July 2005 13:19 (UTC)

Disclaimer: Misplaced Pages has no official position

Apparently some users (Greek nationalists) got to the conclusion that everywhere the term Macedonia (such as Macedonian dinar) is used with the meaning of "Republic of Macedonia", it must be included a disclaimer such as this:

Note

¤ The use of the terms Republic of Macedonia and Macedonian(s) throughout this article is not meant to imply an official position on the naming dispute between Athens and Skopje. See Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia#Naming_dispute_with_Greece, Republic_of_Macedonia#Naming_Dispute and United Nations Resolution 817 (1993)

I found that idea preposterous. You won't find such a thing in Britannica. This is not a way of solving a naming conflict. I couldn't convince any of the people that support this to give up. Anyone willing to help to solve this problem ? bogdan ʤjuʃkə | 20:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Well you won't find "Macedonian Slavs" in Britannica either, however that didn't stop Misplaced Pages naming them so, because of avoiding "confunsion". --FlavrSavr 00:13, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

From proposal to official policy?

Can anyone explain to me how much time should pass until this policy becomes official? BTW, considering ChrisO's proposals on the Macedonians/Macedonian Slavs debate I was under the impression that a Naming Commitee would be established? Was I wrong? --FlavrSavr 03:00, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Common usage and google tests

The preference here for "common usage", which can be determined by google tests needs to be modified. As written in practice it will be synonymous with "use American usage", which isn't the approach WP takes. We allow all standard forms of English language. If such a term as "common usage" is to be used, it needs to be modified to say "a common usage" and to note that we are looking for widespread global usage, and with a strong warning that google is not always a good guide to what this is, jguk 05:41, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

my talkpage...

I'm sorry, but I thought I had answered your questions? yes, WP is supposed to be descriptive, and as such, we'll certainly say that the RoMians refer to themselves as Macedonians, while the Greeks refuse to accept this. However, what counts in cases where this is not the issue, i.e. in cases where the naming dispute is not being discussed, but WP prose is simply referring to the RoM, what is decicive is common use in English. This common use is to use "Macedonian" when the context is clear (as in Macedonian denar), but to disambiguate when the context is not clear (as in "Macedonian culture" or "Macedonian territory"). I am afraid that the term "Macedonian" doesn't refer to a contemporary nation any more than the term "Scandinavian". It used to refer to the nation of Macedon, which is no longer in existence. It is now a historical term, and a term applied geographically to the region of the former nation of Macedon. The RoM, which has gained nationhood 14 years ago, cannot claim exclusive rights to such a historical term. They can use it, and Misplaced Pages will report that they use it, but they cannot impose "common use". dab (ᛏ) 19:41, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Questions to dab

Well, in fact you didn't answer my questions :). Your sole answer was: ambiguity. However ambiguity must not interfere with the NPOV policy. I never argued that the current "Macedonian Slavs" article should be merged to the Macedonians article. I never argued that Culture of Macedonia should only reflect the culture of the Republic of Macedonia, nor that there isn't a need to clarify the use of the Macedonian adjective. I never argued that modern Macedonians should be referred to without any qualifier - I specifically stressed the qualifiers that IMHO, should be used: Macedonians (nationality), Macedonians (nation), Macedonians (people), and if you are not pleased you can even use Macedonians (modern nation). (BTW, the RoM has gained statehood 14 years ago, the nation was officially recognized 60 years ago) --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

The main point behind my argumentation is that the "Macedonian Slav" disambiguation term, is a POV term. It is a point of view that they should be named "Macedonian Slavs", and it is a point of view held by the minority view. Of course "Macedonians" is a POV term, as well, but that't the POV that is accepted by the majority view, and therefore, with the proper disambiguation, it should be accepted as a term that should be used for reference to Macedonians. I provided with you with these resources (please check them, they are not invented by me), just to give credibility to the claim. I am fully aware that I am a partisan in this debate, but that does not mean that I don't know what the NPOV policy states (I am the second best in contributions on the Macedonian Misplaced Pages). Also, the author of this policy proposal ChrisO happens to agree with me on this matter, and as far as I know there are many of the neutral editors that do support me on this matter, regardless of how boring and annoying I might seem. Despite the flamboyant style of Chronographos, who chooses rather not to substantiante his arguments, frequently engages in appeal to motive type of statements, as well as personal attacks (against me) - I tend to cite my sources, no matter how "nationalistic" my approach is (also, I tend to condemn nationalism, if you carefully read my posts).--FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

So please, lets assume that I might be right, on this matter, no matter how annoying I may be (I am a pain in the butt, I know that). Also, bear in mind that Greeks are far more numerous than Macedonians on Misplaced Pages, so I think that it is reasonable to assume that they have had more influence on the texts (don't you agree) Therefore, could you please point specific answers to the each of the following questions (read them all first):

• Isn't Macedonian Slavs is also ambiguous, as it can refer to other Slavs living in the wider region of Macedonia, e.g. Bulgarians.? --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• Why the following encylcopedias/works of reference:
  • Britannica
  • CIA - The World Factbook
  • The Columbia Encyclopedia
  • The Harvard Dictionary of Music
  • Philip's Encyclopedia
  • The Macmillan Encyclopedia
  • Crystal Reference Encyclopedia
  • Penguin Encyclopedia of Places
  • The Companion to British History
  • Encyclopedia of Chicago (my addition)

refer to "people X" as "Macedonians" , and not as "Macedonian Slavs", if as you claim, the "Macedonians" term is ambigious? (the MSN ENcarta is the only exception) Or to paraprhase the question: How come Misplaced Pages needs the "Slav" add-on to dissambiguate, while most encyclopedias, don't found that add-on not necessary? (they also have references to the Ancient Macedonians) --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• Why most international media outlets (which are also very important generators of what you call the common use in English refer to people X as "Macedonians"? (see the comparison in Talk:Macedonian_Slavs/Poll#Media|the appropriate section). In addition to this question, why does the BBC, the biggest English broadcasting network sends an official appology, and a specific directive not to use the term "Macedonian Slavs" to cite : we would like to suggest that as BBC we should seek to avoid wherever possible referring to ethnic Macedonians in Macedonia as "Slav Macedonians" or "Macedonian Slavs" or e.g. "the majority Slav population of Macedonia."? Why do all these major media outlets tend to reduce the "Macedonians Slavs" term, rather to increase it? --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• Why is Zocky's Google test is shows a result that is in favor of the opossite opinion, namely, that Macedonians (without the Slav add-on) is in fact the common English use of the term? --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• If we do a similar test only typing "Macedonians" (excluding wikipedia) - 8 of the first 10 results refer to the modern people X and not to the Ancient Macedonians? Ok, you'll say, they are mostly sites made by members of people X. (However, they are reflecting the English usage, too!) But I managed to exclude those sites as well those sites that are evidently made by Greeks (macedonia.com, etc.) of the first 50 results (please check my judgement If you like, it is possible that I've made some mistakes) - that is 14 remaining sites - only 5 refer to the people of Macedon, (3 of them are using the term Ancient Macedonians simultaneosly) while the other 9 sites are explicitely referring to the modern Macedonians, even some of them claiming direct ancestry from the Ancient Macedonians? --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• Following you logic - there isn't another denar except the Macedonian denar, what do you say about this same pattern applied this way - there is only one contemporary nation called Macedonian (you said that), if I may add there is only one nation called Macedonians - because the people of Macedon weren't a nation - the concept is linked with the nation-state in the 18th century, and if we follow the Greek POV, they weren't even a separate ethnic group/people. So how can Macedonians (nation), Macedonian (nationality), Macedonian (modern nation) etc. be a problem? --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• Why isn't it possible to dissambiguate between the modern Macedonians and the Ancient Macedonians (whoever they were) the same way we dissambiguate between the modern Macedonian language, and the Ancient Macedonian language, namely with the Ancient add-on? --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• Even if we actually assume that the people of Macedon were a nation, and even if we assume that the use of Macedonians can only be applied to them - how come Misplaced Pages refers to modern Egyptians as Egyptians even if that term can apply to the Ancient Egyptians? Why isn't Misplaced Pages calling them Egyptian Arabs (their language is officially Arabic, unlike the Macedonian which is not Slavic, nor Slavic Macedonian) to make a difference between them and the regional meaning of the word and the builders of the Pyramids (which are most probably to be found among the Copts)? --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

• You say that people X cannot claim exclusive rights to such a historical term, but that's a POV par excellence, because, citing Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict policy:

We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is. Suppose that the people of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. In this instance, the Cabindans use the term in a descriptive sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a prescriptive approach to the term, arguing that it should not be used.

Misplaced Pages should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen – whereas the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective and is not a question that Misplaced Pages can, or should, decide.

In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy, as it would be an objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. However, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV. The moral of the story is: describe, not prescribe.

Moreover, the same policy explicitely states that the name should be "Macedonians (people)" How can you explain this? --FlavrSavr 14:21, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for you answers in advance.

• Also bear in mind, that any potential (real) ambiguity of "Macedonians" can be easily avoided in prose. Ambiguity in article names can be avoided by following standard naming conventions.