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Conditions for editing

In my authority as an uninvolved administrator, per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy, I am placing some restrictions on the editing of this article. These restrictions are in effect at least until August 30, 2008:

  • 0RR, meaning No reverts, except for obvious vandalism.
  • A "revert" is defined as something that might be done with the "undo" or "rollback" buttons, or any manual edit which effectively does a clean revert to a previous version of the article. However, changes to the work of other editors are allowed, and even encouraged, as long as an attempt is made to try different compromise wording than what has been tried in the past.
  • Keep comments and edit summaries very neutral and civil.
  • Ensure that any new material that is added, has a reliable source
  • If you see someone add something that you disagree with, don't revert it, change it. Specifically: Try to change it to a compromise wording, or add some (sourced) alternate view wording nearby.
  • If you see something added with a source, that you do not think is a reliable source, add a {{verify credibility}} tag next to it. Discussions can also be started at the talkpage, and/or at the reliable sources noticeboard.
  • If you see a sentence that you don't think properly reflects what is in a source, change it so that it does. Or, add a {{verify source}} tag to it
  • If you see something that's added that is unsourced, but it's plausible, don't just remove it. Instead, add a {{fact}} tag to it. Then, if no source is provided in a reasonable amount of time, the statement can be removed.
  • If something is added that is unsourced, that is obviously troublesome (such as very biased or potentially untrue), it can be deleted on the spot. Please use a clear edit summary such as "removing unsourced information, see talkpage"). If there is a source though, then use one of the other above steps instead.
  • Do not remove reliable sources.
  • Long sections of the article can be condensed. Do not remove their sources, but information can definitely be moved around and re-worded.

Bottom line: Stay civil. Don't revert other editors. If you disagree with an addition, don't delete it, change it.

Good luck, Elonka 18:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Administrative notes

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Other frequent editors on this page

Note: Being listed here does not imply that these editors were disruptive. It is simply for reference, a list of those editors who have recently been actively engaged with this article.

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Discussion

Anyone, admin or editor, who has questions or comments on any of the above, may post here.
  • For the record, I object to these conditions and how they've been imposed, and refuse to be held to Elonka's interpretation of the policies and guidelines listed. This comes after trying to discuss these matters with Elonka, but resolving very little. --Ronz (talk) 19:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality tag

The article is currently tagged, saying that its neutrality is disputed. Could anyone who agrees with this, please list specific points of dispute, so that they can be addressed? Or if you disagree that the tag is appropriate, please state that too, so we can determine the consensus on how to handle it. Thanks, Elonka 15:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

And then can we make it into a list of things to do? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. That's how these "dispute" tags are supposed to work, is that the template is supposed to be a flag that there's a discussion going on at the talkpage about the specific points of dispute. The specific section can even be included in the template. If specific points of dispute cannot be defined though, then the template should be removed. For more information, see the docs at Template:POV. --Elonka 16:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
The sentence: The site "also provides links to hundreds of trusted health sites," is non-neutral. Trusted should be balanced with a qualifier, if it is to remain.
The description of Quackwatch reviewer David Hufford, Ph.D. as, "a writer who generally supports viewing alternative medicine as just a different culture," is vague and weak; it is unsourced, and is transparently POV. Some editors have repeatedly removed the Ph.D. from his name. Petergkeyes (talk) 00:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
It might be your opinion or my opinion that the statement The site "also provides links to hundreds of trusted health sites," is non-neutral. However, it is not Misplaced Pages making this statement, but a direct quote (referenced) from a source. If the word trusted is not "balanced with a qualifier" in the source, then it would be POV for you or I, (Misplaced Pages in other words), to insert our opinions. I see too that someone has placed a opinion needs balancing tag after the entry about Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa's review of Quackwatch. Better still, make the entry accurate for a start. It says Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa "... felt the site might lack fair balance....". He said no such thing. He said Barrett "leaves one sensing a lack of fair balance". He specified Barrett, not Quackwatch. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
K. you make an insightful and important point. The statement says absolutely nothing about Quackwatch, hardly anything about Barrett, but everything about the personal perceptions of the reader of Barrett's writings. It is a self-revealing statement about the feelings of Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa, which are no doubt replicated in thousands of altmed proponents who also read Barrett's and any other skeptic's writings. That's the nature of the beast and it really can't be any other way. As such it's just a rather "duh" and empty statement from a non-notable writer. It has no substance. Barrett has replied to such charges and openly admits that he is not trying to give equal time to all ideas. IOW he's not about to write as if he believes that undocumented fringe ideas he considers deceptive are equally valid as ideas from scientifically validated mainstream sources, and then just leave it up to often uninformed readers to make up their minds. That would be irresponsible, and it would be foolish to give promoters of quackery a soapbox. In some cases we don't even allow that here! He has a right to an opinion, and he expresses it. One can hardly blame him for that, and it's a perfectly legitimate way of writing. Those who "charge" him for doing so should look in their own mirror, since they are expressing their own undocumented opinions as if they were true, and they don't even have the evidence to back their quack claims, unlike Barrett who provides documentation for why the mainstream position is a better choice. -- Fyslee / talk 05:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
I seriously doubt this article will ever achieve a stable, neutral perspective. in just the short time I've been here, I've seen it get reasonably neutral two or three times, and then each time someone comes by and removes all of the critical perspectives so it's just a spank-the-monkey piece. at this point, I suggest we leave the template on there until the article has gone 9 months without a major edit; that will give some incentive towards creating a stable page. --Ludwigs2 01:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, re-visiting this: What needs to change, for the "neutrality" tag to come off this article? I recommend that we drill down and identify exactly which sections of the article need help. Could anyone who has concerns, please tag sections or sentences appropriately? These tags may be helpful:

Note that you don't have to tag something, if it's easier to just fix it. But I'd like to try and narrow down where the specific problems are, rather than just having a generic "Neutrality" tag at the top of the entire article.

Thanks, --Elonka 19:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this approach, Elonka, is that this is an attitude problem, not a facticity problem. and I'm not talking about the attitudes of editors... The major criticisms offered against Barrett and Quackwatch are that they are over-zealous in their work (i.e., that Barrett's clear and unambiguous opposition to alternative medicine leads him to overstate, overreact and overgeneralize, rather than follow normal and conservative scientific procedures). of course, those criticisms often come from people who it is easy to imagine have an axe to grind, so that's a different attitude problem. now this has been the general problem faced on this article - when editor A tries to add a sourced critical perspectives on QW, editor B asserts that the criticism comes from some AltMed supporter with an axe to grind, and tries to remove it or denigrate it as an unreliable opinion. this whole squabble is bound up in assessments of the characters of reviewers critical to QW, and until the question of the character of reviewers is removed from consideration the problem won't go away. the fact that Barrett is overtly snarky about altmed actually fuels the issue: because Barrett insults AM, it's easy to claim that people who criticize him are responding to his insults rather than the errors in his procedures.
so how do we negate these attitude issues? --Ludwigs2 23:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
So which bits are POV? Shot info (talk) 22:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
that's the problem - both Barrett and the majority of his detractors are POV positions. the few people I can see who aren't presenting POV positions (the academics, mostly) are being accused of presenting POV positions. The whole editorial process here has become a protracted effort at spin doctoring, and I don't know how to get editors to cease and start editing from wikipedia-style neutrality. you can tag this article until doomsday, and it won't make a darned bit of difference so long as editors keep trying to make judgements about sources rather than simply reporting them. --Ludwigs2 23:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
I seemed to have missed it, so exactly which bits in the article are POV in your opinion. If you cannot point to them to help editors edit them, then there is no reason for the tag. Articulated previously mind you but thanks to Elonka, here we are writting essays in talk space instead of editing articles... Shot info (talk) 23:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
ah sorry, my mistake. keep in mind that I didn't place the neutrality tag myself this time (I think it might have been placed there by QuackGuru, on the concern that there was too much criticism in the article, though I myself placed it on an earlier incarnation because there was too little criticism in the article...). to my mind, the current bias arises arises in two major places, with the same functional root. the split between the 'Public Comments' and 'Reviews' section creates a bias - there's really no need for the division at all, but the 'Public Comments' section is defended as a 'QW back-patting' section. this was much worse in the past: originally the division was called something like 'Awards' and 'criticisms', except that the criticisms section kept getting deleted. now what's happened is that the 'Public Comments' section is used to give a nice, glowing review of QW, while the review section is edited heavily to minimize critical perspectives. that's the second major (if related) bias; this tendency to minimize critical viewpoints as mere advocacy. there are several academic opinions that have been entered into the reviews section, yet editors keep trying to refocus them a the opinions of altmed supporters, rather than as credible academic opinions. I mean, hello - a month or two ago I had to argue with quackguru because he was dismissing a Rutledge press book (one of the better academic presses in the nation) as a self-published source, and the author of that same book is currently currently being referred to 'a medical historian interested in how Oriental medicine can complement modern medicine' rather than as an academic who studies these issues professionally. (I just got a copy of that book, so I'll be revising that passage as soon as I get a chance, but you see what I mean...) --Ludwigs2 00:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually it was put in by Peter (for UNDUE reasons see above) then removed by me, and reinserted by me due to an example of Elonka's poor admining, then here we are. QG had nothing to do with it. FWIW, what you dismiss as "back patting" is from notable organisations, yet the criticism is often from non-notable individuals. There is a reason that we don't "balance" viewpoints - it's called WP:NPOV. Shot info (talk) 00:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

consultant pharmacist review

I received a copy of this review, and edited the article to reflect it's position correctly, but I think it now has way too much weight in the article. I mean, it's an 8 paragraph review in a minor journal that at best reflects the opinion of pharmacists, but it's carrying a whole lot prominence in this article. any suggestions about how that can be adjusted? --Ludwigs2 17:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Remove it. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:57, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Please don't. It's one of the only truly reliable and external sources the article has. I will shorten it and you and SA can see if you like the result. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Already shortened. ScienceApologist (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
And I did shorten it and kept it reasonably balanced and now it is far too long again and unbalanced. What a lot of unnecessary effort. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Weight in consultant pharmacist article

I got tired of seeing only negative comments cherry-picked from Nguyen-Khoa's article, so I wrote a properly weighted review. Future edits should be made to keep the characterization that is currently being described here. Do not put spin on the remarks, do not include only negatively construed comments, and make sure the fact that the reviewer himself is negatively disposed towards the alt. med. critics of Barrett comes through. Thanks. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I already wrote a properly weighted review that did not do any of the things you mention. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
That's a huge amount of quotation; I'm not sure we should be giving that much weight to the minutiae of one doctor's review, and we certainly don't need verbatim four-line quotations. We should be able to summarise the article in a balanced way in a much smaller paragraph. --McGeddon (talk) 16:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Right, I see what's happened. Ludwigs obtained the full text of the article and made a summary but said it was still too long. I then cut it down to the bare bones. Quackguru removed a phrase that I would argue was key to matching the balance of praise and criticism in the original. (The author does not give QW unqualified praise. If he had had to award a number of stars he would probably have given three out of five. Not four. But we can discuss that.) Then Jossi added a further mention of the same article in a different section. Then someone deleted my bit (altered by Guruji) as repetitive. Now we are warring about Jossi's version, which I would agree was slanted towards the negative. Without any reference to the work that was done so long ago (15 July). Elonka, can you help us to stop going round and round and to agree a consensus version on the talk page. Would RfC be useful at this point? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) McGeddon, would you like to look at the wording I put in on the 15th? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
ugh - our bit on the 'consultant pharmacist' review is almost as long as the frigging review! I'm going to go and cut it way back, because this is ridiculous. --Ludwigs2 19:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Well I for one am happy with the result. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Violation of editing restrictions by Itsmejudith

In this edit, User:Itsmejudith violates the editing restrictions by reverting to a previous version which just said "historian". The added descriptor is important because Ernst is actually a historian of Indian medicine and its relation to the West. She is a supporter of alternative medicine and this fact is important for the readers. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Didn't mean to violate the restrictions. I hadn't noticed it previously said "historian". We should be ultra-careful how we qualify academics. We can't try and discredit them by weasel wording. Don't forget, we are quoting here from a book published by Routledge so a genuine academic source. From its title its scope seems to be wider than SA implies, but I will try and look at some reviews. Also, an academic's work can't necessarily be described on the basis of one output. BTW surely Ernst is male. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
From Amazon, description and synopsis probably added by Routledge (NB one of the world's most respected scholarly publishers).

Book DescriptionResearch into 'colonial' or 'imperial' medicine has made considerable progress in recent years, whilst the study of what is usually referred to as 'indigenous' or 'folk' medicine in colonized societies has received much less attention. This book redresses the balance by bringing together current critical research into medical pluralism during the last two centuries. It includes a rich selection of historical, anthropological and sociological case-studies that cover many different parts of the globe, ranging from New Zealand to Africa, China, South Asia, Europe and the USA. Synopsis The essays in this collection originate from the research symposium organized by the "Society for the Social History of Medicine" at the University of Southampton in 1998. They are concerned with the interaction between different medical approaches during the last two centuries. A variety of methodological approaches are used to challenge narrowly conceived boundaries between disciplines and methodologies.

.
Note that the book is by no means confined to "oriental" or Indian medicine. Can we find anything more mainstream in the history of medicine than this? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:29, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
And he is editor of the Sage journal History of Psychiatry. Now, where exactly is the problem with describing this scholar as "historian"? Itsmejudith (talk) 19:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Journal of the National Cancer Institute

This is not "referenced in scholarly journals" (or a journal, since I moved another citation to a journal to the "Reviews" section). It is a very brief mention of QW's viewpoint along with another "watchdog", in the news section of the journal, not in a refereed paper. I don't think it's a notable mention and would like permission to delete it. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Judith, I'm not sure I understand you. I hope that you aren't raising the bar for inclusion to something above what is required for all articles here. We are mixing various reports, awards, commentaries, positive and negative mentions, etc., all in one section. That wasn't originally the case, but that's where we are now. Each mention stands on its own merits and is sourced. Proper attribution should take care of the rest, and that should be good enough. Now if this mention is in the wrong section, then let's find a better spot for it, rather than just deleting it. The section is important because it was specifically created to meet the demands by detractors for proof of the notability of the website, as a condition for even keeping the article here. (Yes, believe it or not, this article has survived AfD's! That's how far they have gone.) Any attempts to water this down contribute towards their goal of attacking a source that attacks their pet ideas. That's unwikipedian behavior and I'm sure you don't intend to unwittingly participate in such unworthy endeavors, which is why I'm sharing this history with you. -- Fyslee / talk 05:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for sharing it Fyslee. Of course I don't want to raise the bar here above what is usual for articles. If people would like to look, my model for a contentious article is Bat Ye'or. There - after massive amounts of edit-warring - consensus has settled on some very notable positive mentions and some notable/scholarly negative ones. It is left to the reader to work out how much credit to attach to each. Please note that I don't think this topic ought to be anything like as contentious or that we are aiming for 50-50 positive-negative. If we are reflecting the balance "out there", then the result will be quite different from that on the Bat Ye'or page. There are more positive than negative references to QW, and those critiques that we do have are not written in anything like as scathing terms as those about that controversial writer. I'm also bearing in mind that conciseness is a virtue: QW is this, does that, this person for this purpose said this, that person writing in that context said that, a few more notable comments, notes, external links, see also, categories. No POV-pushing from any side. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:28, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Readability

This article reads like a turf war, folks. Almost every sentence is so contested, that the overall presentation reads even schizophrenically at times. When sentences cancel out each other, how can a reader even begin to understand the article in the first place? Understand that editors here are working under a lot of pressure, but readable copy for a encyclopedia is also crucial. I'm no grammar major, but I can read, and this article is best described as a working draft -- but it's on the front page. Can it be formatted to be read better at least while the finer points are duked out? FResearcher (talk) 02:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Go ahead and be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. --Elonka 02:22, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Elonka, due to this article being a No Man's Land of two main warring factions, and I a new face, it's best that I don't touch the article itself (and upset an editor who's worked on a section for months). I'm suggesting that existing editors to go back and proof read their work, so that as a working copy, any third party that comes to this page can make sense of the article. There's too many sentences that literally cancel each other's citation out. When two sides war over how to make a sausage and it's ingredients, often they forget that other folks will have to eat it. But what looks good on the production floor, doesn't for third parties who aren't into sausage making (and probably throw up at the sight of it!). This is a friendly "heads up", that between the duking out of sources, that the readability side shouldn't be regarded as what happens after the sausage is made itself. Those Googling sources will come by, and these third parties deserve fine sausages to eat, even if the sausage itself is a hot link with an extra side of Cayenne. FResearcher (talk) 13:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
FResearcher - I actually agree with you. In fact, if you want to go through and make this a decent read I will support you to the best of my abilities. it will get you in some hot water, yes: various people - you'll see who - will try to attack you in the hopes of provoking an unreasoned response, all in an attempt to get you blocked. just ignore them, because it's mostly smoke - leave a note on my talk page about anything that worries you. politics on wikipedia is mostly stuck at the grammar school level (tease someone until they get mad, then rat them out to the teacher (errr.. admins) as though it's all their fault). it's sad, but there's not much you can do about it except learn the ropes, keep your cool, and keep at it.  :-) --Ludwigs2 21:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Is this entirely "uncited, unsourced original research"?

Re: , I think we can easily verify:

  • "was asked by editors of the Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics"
  • "to give a presentation as the counterpoint for Dr. Lawrence J. Schneidermanthe s presentation"
  • "which argued that "alternative medicine" is not medicine at all"

I'm not so sure about:

  • "since he is known for advocating for tolerance of alternative medicine as a culture"

--Ronz (talk) 17:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the info above that I think is easily verifiable and not in contention. I also moved his title to the footnote as it is in the other as a compromise to the previous discussions on this issue. Note that the footnote actually contains a reference for the information about the symposium. --Ronz (talk) 15:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
The information above is in contention. It is not easily verifiable, and it is not relevant to Quackwatch. The professor's credentials should be restored. Petergkeyes (talk) 10:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
If it's not relevant, then I guess the source and all relevant information should be removed as well. Otherwise, we need to be sure we present it per NPOV, which is what we've been doing. Have you read the previous discussions on this? Seems like you're asking us to ignore NPOV. --Ronz (talk) 02:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

What is Hufford?

I've heard the guy speak. He is a humanities professor who thinks that healthcare is part science/part art/part culture. If you read any of his papers, he evinces this ethos and it's a legitimate ethos to boot. He believes that alternative medicine is good for the same reasons that Patch Adams does: namely it is a cultural form that people engage with and it allows them to feel comfortable. To this end, he criticizes those who criticize alt. medicine for being narrow-minded in their approach to medicine-as-Western-evidence-based-science. In fact, he argues, since we don't have a scientific model for humanity, there are more things that need to be taken into account than simply whether health is evidence-based or not. Etc. etc. etc. Comes to be that this particular academic is sought out for his "alternative opinions" about "alternative medicine" quite frequently because he doesn't like the fact that alternative medicine is maligned simply for its lack of evidence. That's his take, and inasmuch as it is his take, he is a sympathizer with alternative medicine. I'll grant you that he has a nuanced perspective; he's not saying that alternative medicine is "effective" in the way that one would describe antibiotics as "effective". He's merely saying that it deserves a consideration that hasn't been afforded it, and indeed, he claims, has been denied it by a healthcare establishment too focused on models of medicine that treat human malady as isolated causal systems rather than as complex systems that belie simple analysis.

I'm not sure how the hell to get this across to the reader. He is an "apologist" for alternative medicine. I put that in there and less-than-kind people who I doubt did much reading, listening, or consideration of this professor balked. However, there needs to be some acknowledgment that Hufford is coming at this subject with a lens of accommodation if not acceptance of alternative medicine as a cultural form worthy of respectful treatment.

ScienceApologist (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

sorry, been taking a break from this page, so that I don't need to deal with certain less-than-kind individuals.
apologist is a judgement term, not a statement of fact. I have no problem contextualizing Hufford's perspective, as long as it's presented as a credible academic opinion, not as the opinion of a 'sympathizer', 'apologist', 'advocate', 'proponent' or any other term that is there to evaluate Hufford as a person. rather than to represent Hufford's opinions. this incessant effort to break things down into opposing camps is pointless, and only serves to confound and corrupt the information that the article is supposed to be presenting. --Ludwigs2 22:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Um, your removal of content in the article is a violation of the editing restrictions in this article. Rephrase, don't remove is the name of the game. If you have no problem with contextualizing Hufford's perspective then you should have tried to contextualize Hufford's perspective rather than removing the content. The fact is that Hufford was acting as an "opposing camp" to people who were critical of alternative medicine when he made the statement and since it is an important fact that only people who are supportive of alternative medicine are critical of Quackwatch, your removal of the characterization of Hufford's stated opinions on alternative medicine as well as your removal of the context in which he offered his opinions on Quackwatch removes information that provides valuable context for the reader. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Actually the edit in question left Hufford's view and the source in place, but it did shorten the statement considerably. If you think too much was taken out, perhaps there's another wording that both of you could agree to? Shell 19:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
We simply need to characterize the fact that Hufford is an alternative medicine supporter. That's important, perhaps more important than his status as a retired humanities professor. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
ok, SA - I actually understand your concern. how about if we say this? "David Hufford, a professor of humanities who studies the cultural aspects of alternative medicine"? that clarifies what he does, and puts his viewpoint in proper perspective, without using any loaded terms that might cast him as an advocate rather than an academic. it also leaves out the 'in response to' tangent, which isn't necessary to the article, but was only used to place Hufford in a 'camp'. would that work for you? --Ludwigs2 23:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
But that doesn't include the context required for NPOV. --Ronz (talk) 00:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Right. There are people who study alternative medicine who do not view it as sympathetically as Hufford. This is an important point to get across to the reader. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
first, ronz - I'm not sure what context you're talking about. it clearly identifies the author and his relationship to the topic, doesn't it? --Ludwigs2 01:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I would say that it misses the key point that Hufford generally advocates the thesis that alternative medicine should be looked at through a sympathetic cultural lens. By saying he "studies the cultural aspects of alternative medicine" we miss his unique perspective which isn't someone who asks the question: "why do people delude themselves?" but rather "how is alternative medicine beneficial to people involved in its culture?" ScienceApologist (talk) 14:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
except that I don't necessarily see Hufford as asking either question. Academics as a rule strive for objectivity, because if they have axes to grind they don't do well as academics (academia is allergic to politics, believe it or not - funding worries...). you keep wanting to place him in the category of a sympathizer or advocate, when most likely he just wants to explore the psycho-social aspects of AltMed without really taking a stand either way. I mean really, what is his criticism here? he says that QW is not fully committed to objective scientific practice (something that Barrett himself has admitted to, on the grounds that pseudoscience doesn't need objective treatment) - that seems like a perfectly valid scientific critique, one that any scientist might make without a prejudice for or against QW. --Ludwigs2 21:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Does Hufford belong here at all?

Actually, more importantly, exactly why is Hufford's opinion on anything (forgetting QW for the moment) valid and needed to be reported. Is he a relevant expert in the field? Regardless of his actual opinion(s) on various subjects, is is opinion actually notable. Is he quoted in his field(s) of strength? If not, why is his opinion then notable here. Sure his opinion is verifiable, and sourced (from a reliable source even) but why is his opinion notable in this article when his opinion is not notable in what he is employed as and actually writes in? Feel free to move this to a new section if required. Shot info (talk) 01:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

second, Shot info - allow me to point out that 'notable' re: wp:notability only applies to whether or not a topic should be entered into wikipedia as an article. this use of the word notable is senseless in this context; the proper guideline is wp:undue weight. with that in mind, your question becomes easy to answer: Hufford is an establish academic offering an opinion specifically about quackwatch in an academic journal. he is well within his field for what he is talking about (which is more than I can say for Martin Gardner, just to throw in a zinger). he meets the weight requirement easily. --Ludwigs2 01:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Well, now you have added to the problems of the article that you have articulated above. Firstly, if I meant WP:NOTE, I would have typed WP:NOTE, I mean notable in the context of the word - notable. Who is Hufford? You have complained that this article is suffering, yet one of the reasons it is suffering is that QW is a organisation that has be lauded in the media and within academic circles - and to seemingly counter balance that, all and any commentry is dragged up - no matter how obscure or obtuse. So how to fix this? Well, lets write an article for an encyclopedia with WP:NPOV in mind. Every ... single ... reference ... no matter how vague, remote, uncontexual, or just plain pointless - made about the subject of the article does not need to be included. This is editing 101. That fact is, this article suffers because there is a desparate attempt by editors to include every "negative" reference, which then violates weight, so more "positive" guff is added - which leads to unreadibility and the current "poor" state of the article. This can be fixed of course, but it requires editors to admit that not every single reference needs inclusion. But alas, it seems that some editors cannot do this - and so the article probably won't ever change (mind you Elonka's EP policy certainly ensures that ferked up articles stay ferked up). WRT: Gardner - You are more than welcome discuss matters about other articles on those articles talkpages. Shot info (talk) 01:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

(undent) sorry, I didn't mean to be confusing. but I'm failing to understand your issue here, even with the word clarification. there are certain people who laud quackwatch, and there are certain people who criticize quackwatch, and I don't see the problem with including both. I'm not asking to use every single reference under the sun, but I'm not at all clear what grounds you are using to ask to have this reference removed. is Hufford (a professor with academic publications under his belt that show he is a credible professional in his field) somehow a less reliable source that Nguyen-Khoa (a pharmacist, whose only professional publication that I can find is an eight paragraph review in a minor pharmaceutical journal). if you want to remove Hufford on those grounds, let me know, because I will use that decision as an axe, here and in other articles, to trim out a whole lot of scientistic deadwood (and no, I don't mind talking about gardner and other pages here - wikipedia should be consistent, after all, and what goes here ought to go everywhere).

and just so you know, I don't have a problem with quackwatch per se - to the extent that Barrett actually debunks scams, I'm completely in his corner. but he and QW have been criticized for being biased, unselective, and unscientific in some of their efforts, and those criticisms belong in this article just as does the praise for the good work that they do. believe me, I'm no radical: the only reason I push so hard for the criticism in this this article is that if I don't, the article will rapidly get reverted to the white-washed drivel that was here when I first saw the page.

Just think of me as the equal but opposite reaction in Newton's Theory of Misplaced Pages.  :-) --Ludwigs2 02:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Ludwigs, please don't try to characterise my suggestions as including in all "positive" non-notable information. Curiously I haven't argued for that. The problem with this article is, it starts out being (say) 90% information on QW (ie/ neutral and position), 10% "negative". Now before you try to pull the numbers apart, they are illustrative only. Then (say) somebody comes along and says "but what about X, Y, Z from obscure journal A, location B etc. " which starts to push the weight from 90/10 to say 80/20, or 70/30. So other editors cry "Weight" but the Elonka's of the world say "Na-huh has to stay in because I don't know about WP:UNDUE and it's sourced" so then to push it back to 90/10, in goes more "guff".
Let's face it. QW is a relatively small organisation that has attracted support and opposition. The article should read about what the organisation is, who it's key members are, what it's purpose(s) are and how it attempts to achieve it. Saying that is NPOV. Then the notable support should be included (as there is some key support quotes) and criticism from notable critics. ie/ notable people, people who actually mean something when they critise. So Hufford....no. Chopra....yes. And on the so-called "positive" side, Nguyen-Khoa ... no. Time ... yes. On the whole, the article should reflect the fact that more significant and notable organisations and people regard QW with some measure of worthiness, while most of it critics are largely nobodies (yes, even Hufford is a nobody...especially given his critism isn't really about QW but largely an out of context mined quote).
The article on QW should be shortened and made more succint. What I see your problem being is that you don't seem to be pushing the article towards being an better article, but just stopping it from being white-washed. So cease stopping the whitewashing and fix the article. How about you present a new section skeleton which we can discuss and rewrite the info into? Shot info (talk) 03:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. We've discussed this many times, and it just came up at ANI: pedia%3AAdministrators%27_noticeboard%2FIncidents&diff=232568400&oldid=232567072. We need to follow NPOV. If that means ignoring the advise and opinions of editors that don't understand NPOV, then so be it. --Ronz (talk) 18:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Charlotte is actually not backing up your point at all. JzG seems not even aware of what exactly the dispute involves. Hufford is representing a common position, and it is certainly not undue weight to include his comments. The reason that we guide the content in an article with undue weight rather than notability is because people will get confused and think that whether something should be added is dependent upon the notability of the source, like Shot info with his statement that Deepak Chopra belongs, and Hufford does not. II | (t - c) 19:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
I suggest you reread the comments here and by JzG. Then, please provide an independent, reliable source that demonstrates we should give Hufford and his opinions any mention at all. --Ronz (talk) 19:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
well, Ronz, I'll tell you... I and other editors have fixed this article two or three times already, and each time ScienceApologist and/or QuackGuru undid the revsions made, with a lot of energy but without a lot of discussion. how do you think this article came under editing restrictions in the first place? when consensus editing becomes possible here, I'm all for it; since it's not, damage control is the only meaningful option I have.
with respect to your other statements... I don't see any grounds in policy or guideline for what you are saying. in particular, this phrase - "ie/ notable people, people who actually mean something when they criticize" - seems to be central to your argument (in that it defines what you mean by 'notable' in the off-beat way you're using it), but it is such a vague, subjective statement that it couldn't possibly be founded in meaningful policy. and you seem to have a preference for popular-press sources over academic sources (Time & Chopra over the academic pair) that is a bit anti-encyclopedic. the fact of the matter is, Hufford is a reliable and verifiable source; the only grounds for excluding him might be that his opinion represents a tiny minority opinion, and fails undue weight. is that what you're arguing?
And shot info... be glad we don't make a policy of "ignoring the advise and opinions of editors that don't understand NPOV", because if we did no one would listen to a word you said.  :-P --Ludwigs2 21:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
In reply to your last paragraph: Expelliarmus. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Heh, I'm glad that Coppertwig, an admin, enjoys the personal attack with the emoticon on the end. Nice.Shot info (talk) 22:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Some history regarding the balance of positive remarks and criticisms

Here's a bit of history regarding the balance of positive remarks and criticisms here. It has previously been filled with huge amounts of criticism, including from dubious sources. This was before WEIGHT was understood or constantly invoked. I suspect things have ended up this way because of any of the positive remarks or criticisms being hotly contested at every step. That happened at both the Quackwatch and Stephen Barrett articles, with actual attempts to delete the articles because of claims by critics of them not being notable enough! That of course created a demand for better documentation/positive remarks (more RS refs and precisely attributed quoting), which resulted in very well-sourced articles and extensive proof of their great notability and acceptance by mainstream RS. That was a big Pyrrhic victory (i.e. loss) for critics, who have hopefully learned that the Quackwatch/mainstream POV is usually right for a reason, namely because it usually is right and can document it using RS. Challenging mainstream POV ends up costing critical editors far more than it is worth. They lose at the local article level and force Misplaced Pages to implement more and tighter policies regarding fringe POV. From a Quackwatch/mainstream POV, this is very positive, as RS are generally much more positive and available from mainstream reliable sources, rather than criticisms, which are usually from fringe sources which often fail V, RS, and NOR requirements. This is how Misplaced Pages's sourcing and weight policies parallel principles found in science and EBM. Reproducibility, verification, and reliability are requirements for both Misplaced Pages and science.

MastCell has written something tangentially related to this subject:

-- Fyslee / talk 04:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Formatting of quotes

One thing I have noticed is that the manner in which quotes are formatted is sometimes different in the same articles many places here at Misplaced Pages. That applies here as well. This is an unfortunate way in which editorial POV can creep into an article. An editor can insert a quote and make it more noticeable than other quotes. It may even happen with no ulterior motives than personal preference for a certain method of formatting, but it's still not right. Some quotes are indented in the simple and normal ":" or "*" manners and others are indented and formatted using the <blockquote> or {{quote}} template formats.

I think all quotes should use the simple wiki markup ":" or "*" methods of indenting, unless there is some special reason not related to editorial POV for doing otherwise. It isn't proper to highlight some quotes in big quote boxes, while others are kept more obscure, sometimes even hidden as part of the inline text, even though the quotes are several lines long. I think MOS allows both methods, but I find it to be misused at times, and would rather avoid making POV differences.

I have undone such formatting (the last two methods) in several places where I have found it, but will wait for comments before doing it here. I would like to simplify the existing blockquotes in this article. What think ye? -- Fyslee / talk 04:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

References

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