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Talk:Caster Semenya

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Controversy

Regarding the controversy regarding the gender of this athlete during the 2009 Athletics world championships - the 'innocent until proven guilty' rule applies. Recent edits to this entry includes references such as 'he/she' - these should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noswal (talk • contribs) 06:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Gender contraversy is not a "guilt" but uncertainty, thus he/she describes the gender better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laberzs (talk • contribs) 06:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC) I made an edit that omits the use of he or she, thus achieving neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laberzs (talk • contribs) 06:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Removing all references to he/she is not 'neutrality'. If you think it is you really shouldn't be attempting to edit an encyclopedia. As of 20th August 2009 Caster Semenya is a woman and competes in athletics as a woman. To suggest otherwise, even by the use of gender neutral language, is to use Misplaced Pages to support unproven rumour or hearsay. This article should be reverted until the results of any gender test are known. 80.176.88.21 (talk) 07:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Semenya is participating as a women, but is she a woman is under the question, it is a fact to be revealed not a popular vote or discussion. And besides, I do not think that you are to tell on how I should think or whether I should or should not edit anything. --Laberzs (talk) 07:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Presumably you can now go and edit the Lady Gaga article to a 'gender neutral' POV because of rumours about her anatomy? Semenya's status has not changed to 'gender unknown' just because the IAAF has requested a test. 80.176.88.21 (talk) 07:32, 20 August 2009
          • Lady GagGa is a man ??? Blimey !

This article discusses the difficulty of determining a person's male or female sexual identity. It says we are all a mixture of both, neither 100% male or female. Maybe Caster is just unlucky she looks like a geezer, or maybe she could be like Stella Walsh who won Olympic Gold despite having male AND female genitalia. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1208012/Woman-man-little-bit-How-deciding-Caster-Semenyas-gender-complex-think.html


(UTC)

  • Comment. We have a standard on Misplaced Pages that living people are accorded dignity to be represented as the gender identity they clearly use. In most cases a person lives as a woman or a man and is referred to using the appropriate gender pronouns. No matter the test results Semenya identifies as a woman and will be referred to as such until she self-identifies otherwise. -- Banjeboi 20:19, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Even if the IAFF decided she cannot compete as a woman, that would not mean it is appropriate not to use the female pronoun in this article. The IAFF ruling only extends to her sporting engagements, it does not make it acceptable or appropriate for an encyclopedia to refer to her in any other way for as long as she self-identifies as female. JackAidley (talk) 21:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

This individual is neither lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender as far as anybody here knows (at this point in time) so why does this come under the scope of the LGBT portal ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.100.141.138 (talk) 06:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Probably because an article about someone whose gender has been challenged has similar issues to articles about trans people, so the LGBT project has interest and expertise in the relevant issues. --Alynna (talk) 11:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I took out a weired statement that's not helping. You can read it at the spot this comment is currently in in this version of this page. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 21:32, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

This is silly to not have any personal pronouns at all in the article. The results of the test have not yet been published. Semenya claims to be unconcerned about the test and rumours, although has reportedly considered boycotting the medal ceremony. That's a terrible sentence. It should say "although she has reportedly considered....." If Semenya is intersexed or even if she is biologically male, she's living as a woman and should be referred to as one. Nosleep 13:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we're conflating living in good faith as a disturbed, consistent transsexual person and passing as a woman to defraud the Commonwealth Youth games. It seems provocative and aggressive to saturate the article with female pronouns when such a case is legally disputed—it is taking a side and promoting in the court of world opinion, which could influence the judges of Semenya's fate. The Homosexualist (talk) 04:50, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Okay, I really doubt that the "gender judges" are going to be basing their decision on Semenya's Misplaced Pages article. Even if they consider her to be biologically male and strip her of her medal, that's not really license for us to say the motive was fraud. Semenya certainly seems intersexed to me, and may have legitimately self-identified as female all her life. Absent any direct evidence, even if she's judged ineligible and stripped of her medal, we would be wrong to suggest fraud. Nosleep 07:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Female or male

Hmmm I draw your attentions to Stella Walsh and Sarah Gronert... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.126.97 (talk) 08:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Have a look at the pictures in this article.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Laberzs (talk • contribs) 10:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Not necessarily so. Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/Foekje_Dillema She was a dutch athlete expelled from womans events, but based on recent rules of IOC would have been allowed to race today. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.95.200.218 (talk) 17:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone noticed that he/she has a male name? It is an odd name too, for an African.

It's actually an anagram for 'Yes a secret man'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.238.176.95 (talk) 09:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

If you lived in South Africa, you'd know that it's not an unusual name for a black person (at least on this part of the continent) and I honestly don't see how it could be seen as a male name, get to understand my country a bit more before making those sorts of remarks.--41.246.88.183 (talk) 21:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

We should presume that Caster Semenya is a female until it is established otherwise.

It is said that there is a higher proportion of hermaphrodites amongst Bantu. That may be so. If Caster is a hermaphrodite, is he male with female characteristics, or female with male characteristics?JohnC (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 05:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC).

According to a yet unverified press report the Athletics South Africa conducted a gender test already in March. The result was that Caster Semenya is definitely intersexual. This result was withheld both from her, her family and the IAAF. It is being speculated that Athletics South Africa and its head coach used medications to bring her testosterone to normal levels for doping checks. 84.188.147.190 (talk) 17:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Blick is probably reliable, but if it's true it will be picked up by other sources soon enough. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 17:41, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
I think Semenya is a she by dint of self-identification, and that Semenya is perhaps intersexual by biology. I also think the test should be called a "biological sex test" and not a "gender" test. Gender is a person's identity and sex refers to a person's biological characteristics in the appropriate areas. 68.32.48.221 (talk) 00:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
I've seen an article discuss that it's a sex test,and not a gender test. If you can find a good reference, you should add the info. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 00:39, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
What would a "gender test" be, in your opinion? "Gender" refers to identity and social performance, "sex" to biology. If there were such thing as a "gender test" she would clearly pass it as female, because she was assigned that gender at birth and lives as a female. What they are doing to her is a sex test -- still very dubious, as there is no deterministic test for male/female, because biological sex itself is ill-defined (as a binary trait).--87.162.2.246 (talk) 21:29, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Spot on. I've seen some news reporters refer to Semenya's "gender test" and bring on gender therapists to talk about it, and then get confused when the subject becomes self-identification and not biology. It's Semenya's sex, not her gender, that's in dispute. Nosleep 07:50, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Gender is a synonym for sex, no matter how they use it in certain fields of science. There's no point in complicating things because someone took a sociology class. 89.44.241.20 (talk) 23:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, no, but enough people seem to agree with you out there that we probably ought to use "gender test" in the article, even though it's entirely the wrong term. 07:50, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this helps, but the word "gender" in English is originally a linguistic, not biological term, that simply means "type" or "kind" of noun or noun referent. It has nothing to do with biological sex for us. It comes from the same Latin root as the word "genre", "type or kind of art", and "genus", "type or kind of animal". As you may know, in languages such as Spanish, each noun has to be one of two types, roughly corresponding to "male" and "female" when referring to animals and people, but to nothing in particular when referring to inanimate things. But other languages have four, five, six, or even seven genders, roughly corresponding to any number of "types"; maybe "fish", "tall, thin things", "green things", or nothing in particular.
Because they tend to align with male and female in European languages familiar to English, the two ideas got conflated in English and "gender" came to mean "sex" in common usuage, and then in biology. So I doubt Biology has drawn this new distinction between "sex" and "gender" as it was Biology that conflated them as a technical term in the first place. I suspect this new distinction is the work of "gender studies", and wonder how definitive it is. Chrisrus (talk) 05:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, i worded it wrong, one of the definitions of gender in the dictionary is as a synonym of sex, i didn't mean to imply it was the only one. So technically it isn't wrong unless you only take into account how it is used in whatever field it is that uses it for the social identity thing. 89.44.241.20 (talk) 15:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Sex is sex, not gender. In the general public's eye it may seem to be one and the same but science measures sex, society measures gender. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.74.11.10 (talk) 16:39, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY

"A transgender, transsexual, or genderqueer person's latest preference in gendered nouns and pronouns should be adopted when referring to any phase of that person's life, unless this usage is overridden by that person's own expressed preference. Nevertheless, avoid confusing or seemingly logically impossible text that could result from pronoun usage (for example: She fathered her first child)." - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 15:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Right, only that she is not transgender, transsexual, or genderqueer. She has never defined herself as anything other than a woman. That someone questions your gender doesn't make you trans.--87.162.2.246 (talk) 21:32, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
Please explain what your problem is with the use of gender-neutral language, given that this person's gender is disputed? The use of gender neutral language ensures that no factual inaccuracies will be present in the article with regard to gender, the use of 'she' and 'her' does not, while adding nothing to the article.Kie (talk) 02:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
It's the rules, mostly. I think the reason is that we don't want to hurt that person, so we say what they want. If you read news articles, they do the same thing. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:03, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
There's no rule against using gender neutral language. Kie (talk) 02:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
There is. Go ask at the link I provided above. If they say it's OK, then it's fine with me. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:01, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Honestly, I really can't be bothered, I tried to make the article as accurate as possible without publishing anything at all libelous - I'm not overly familiar with the plethora of rules that exist on this site, I'd hoped it could be resolved with sensible discussion rather than with numerous appeals to authority. I'm not jumping through hoops to ensure it is accurate, if you want to make it possibly inaccurate to ensure that a person who will likely never read this page is not offended then good luck to you. Kie (talk) 03:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry. I know all the rules here can seem very arbitrary. This particular rule I don't really care about, I just know that some people feel very strongly, and I try to respect that. There are lots of people who can explain why, I'd imagine, but it sounds liker we're done here. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 03:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
First of all, I'd just like to say that this is fascinating. I think I understand why the policy MOS:IDENTITY is the way it is. You all have mentioned many of these sound reasons; questions of libel, of common courtesy, but most of all "expediency" - simplicity's sake. Imagine the headaches there would be for Wikipedians to have to get definitive answers as to a person's gender! And, after all, who's to say exactly? There are almost always intermediate forms where one distinct thing and another blur: there are gray areas around most concepts. Nevertheless, I can sympathize with ambiguous feelings expressed by others above, and have begun to cast about for theoretical cases in which provisions in the policy for its violation would be appropriate to envoke. (The most obvious of these would be cases of blatant lying). I wouldn't want to imply that any such theoretical case of these possible cases would apply here, I'd rather take them to the Talk page for MOS:IDENTITY. We should be prepared for any eventuality.

Outdent. The spirit of this remains the same and will be followed here - we support an individual's right to expression and dignity. If someone identifies as female we do as well; if reliable sources dispute that expression we reconcile what they report with the subject's wishes. -- Banjeboi 05:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

You're a well known nutter though, to be fair, if she's identifying as female purely to compete in events, then she should be referred to as 'he'. Given that there is some level of doubt, there's no need to use gender-specific terms when perfectly adequate gender neutral pronouns exist. Kie (talk) 02:32, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Feels futile, but ...

A male has XY and a female has XX chromosomes. THAT is what determines male or female. Not the external genitalia (or lack thereof). Not the person's "gender identification." If there really is a policy on referring to a male as "she" and vice-verse, then it's just an attempt to say "reality can be anything you want it to be." But reality is what it is, whether you like that or not. If Caster Semenya is proven to have XY chromosomes, then Caster is a male, and it is un-intellectual and dishonest to use "she" in this article. Regardless of how certain people may "feel" about it. Tragic romance (talk) 04:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

That would make her biologically male, yes, but it wouldn't make her a "boy" or a "man." To call her "he" when she clearly self-identifies as female is like telling a gay person they're gay because they choose to be. Nosleep 07:47, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, two things. First, if you're a boy, and you call yourself a girl, then wikipedia has rules that make sure we'll call you a girl too. Second, it turns out that XX and XY don't cover it. Certain types of XY (Androgen something something) have vaginas and are more feminine than normal women. Anyways, there's lots of types of XX and XY, as well as XXY, XYY, XXX, and so on (I could be wrong about the exact letters, and I think there's one with for Xs or Ys maybe). It's kinda crazy. I never heard of it before reading about this runner. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 04:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
The use of gendered pronouns in languages, specifically English, has always been the choice of the speaker, rather than the referent. Activists may set etiquette for certain established classes of gender-dysphoric people, and those could be accepted, but it is inexcusable to let the subject dictate what we write when they so obviously have monetary incentives one way or the other. The Homosexualist (talk) 04:56, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but in this case the speaker is wikipedia, and not any individual editor. Misplaced Pages has chosen to go with what the person in question likes. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 05:03, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Under which policy, and how long ago was that established? And was this policy verified by community consensus, or something created boldly just to settle this controversy? The Homosexualist (talk) 05:07, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
MOS:IDENTITY. I don't know the specifics. You can ask there. Another user was curious how it came about. This is the first article I've ever worked on where it came into play, although I do agree with it. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 05:11, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
  1. It is a guideline, not a policy, which means it is not binding
  2. The hard-and-fast rule is for "transgender, transsexual, or genderqueer person"s
  3. Otherwise, it says to use what the person uses to refer to themself if there is no dispute.
We should fall back to Neutral point of view policy then, and avoid using the antagonizing language, even if the wording may not flow as beautifully as a result. The Homosexualist (talk) 05:57, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Fisher is right. Ordinarily a Y chromosome causes an embryo to develop into a male phenotype (so both XXY and XYY people develop into males, not females), but if a person has androgen insensitivity syndrome, in which the body produces testosterone but the cell receptors can't accept it, then the person can be XY and female. AES has varying levels of severity. In its most extreme form, AES people grow up into women (with breasts and everything) and don't even know they have it until they fail to menstruate or conceive.
A person's physical gender is the sum of genes, gene expression, body chemistry, internal organs and anatomy—both below the belt and above the neck. If you ask me, this last is the most significant. Waves of testosterone (or not) during fetal development cause changes in brain anatomy. (On girls with total AES, the testosterone has no effect, so they'd have female brain anatomy.) A transsexual who grows up feeling like a girl trapped in a boy's body, it seems to me, is literally right.
In any case, all this is moot for Ms. Semenya. Even if it does turn out that she's an intersex person of some kind, we are to use her preferred pronouns. It's just polite. The only circumstances under which it would be proper for us to refer to Semenya as "he" would be after discovering that Semenya is really a man who deliberately and knowingly committed gender fraud to enter the race, and that doesn't seem to be what happened. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually we would still refer to her as she if she continued to identify as a woman. We likely would report the updates but still respect her wishes. -- Banjeboi 13:54, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
During the American Civil War alone, there are documented cases of women pretending to be men so that they could serve in armies. We refer to these women as "she" because their preference was not "I am a man" but rather "I must pretend to be a man to achieve some other purpose." If Semenya turns out to be not a woman or intersex person but rather a man who lied about being a woman for some non-identity reason, then Semenya would be "he." Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Those civil war examples are interesting but we'd have to actually treat each case if they were trying to live their entire lives as a man or just cross-dressing to join a war effort or a mixture, if uncertain we present what a consensus on reliable sources state. In Semenya's case, if she still presented herself in a female gender identity we would do so as well and neutrally present information about her gender identity conflicting with her being born with male genitalia etc. Even intersex people are referred to as the gender they present as. In the good old days before Misplaced Pages was the top search result this was less important but now whatever we report here affects real people in the real world so we err on the conservative side even if we think a BLP is omitting some information. -- Banjeboi 12:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

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Should we currently use personal pronouns to refer to Semenya in the article, given the current dispute? What should we use if the "gender test" determines that Semenya is biologically male? Nosleep 07:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment: I disagree that there is currently any 'dispute' about Miss Semenya's gender. A dispute would imply that some contradictory evidence has been presented. A gender test has been requested but until results of any test are presented there is no dispute. Gender testing is mandatory for the Olympic Games but that does not mean that the gender of all young athletes who have yet to enter for the Olympics is somehow 'in dispute'. Misplaced Pages should be based on known facts rather than the maxim that 'there is no smoke without fire'. 80.176.88.21 (talk) 09:05, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment According to MOS:IDENTITY, when referring to a transgendered/transsexual person, it is appropriate to use the pronoun proper for the gender that said person identifies with. Since Semenya identifies as a female (i.e. competes in the female division of athletic competitions), Misplaced Pages ought to use feminine pronouns to refer to her. I don't know what criteria the athletic governing body will use for the test, but even if it is ruled that for the purpose of her sport she is insufficiently female, Misplaced Pages should continue to use feminine pronouns unless she changes her public stance on her gender. ækC 09:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
To clarify: I don't think Semenya is necessarily a transgendered/transsexual person. But extending the policy from MOS:IDENTITY to apply to her seems natural. The policy seems to be saying that Misplaced Pages should use pronouns in accordance with the beliefs of the referent about his/her social gender (not biological sex). I can think of no reason why the reasoning that applies in cases of clearly transgendered/transsexual persons shouldn't apply here as well. ækC 09:29, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree. The only reason MOS:IDENTITY doesn't refer to non-trans women is because in that case, there shouldn't be an issue. That is - if Caster Semenya is a woman, then it goes without saying that female pronouns are used, no matter whether people have questioned her gender or not. If it turns out that she's intersex, male or whatever, then MOS:IDENTITY comes into play, and we still use female pronouns. Mdwh (talk) 14:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment In general, a female pronoun should be used through the article writing. There has been some grumbling that the MOS doesn't cover this particular case, but I think the language is sufficently broad to cover people who's gender is disputed by others, (theoretically, that could cover many more people than what we're discussing here). Neutral language should only be used when female pronouns would be confusing, (I don't like the MOS example of 'she fathered her first child', but it illustrates the point well enough.) I can't think of anything in the article right now that requires gender neutral language to be easily understood, so female pronouns should be used throughout. Bigmacd24 (talk) 11:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Female pronouns should be used as that is how she identifies herself. The IAAF cannot determine someone's gender - all they can do is determine whether someone conforms to their rules to compete. As she has clearly said she is female, that is how she wants to be referred to and we should follow that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Acb314 (talk • contribs) 12:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
(Edited out some irrelevance in my previous comment) Acb314 (talk) 14:12, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
    • The IAAF cannot determine someone's gender identity but they certainly can test for biological traits that have great credit in determining gender (in a case of alleged fraud, not transsexualism) with the world population at-large, minus the press and Misplaced Pages intelligentsia. Using the female cases for Semenya is an affirmation of innocence—it is inappropriate as such aggressive sympathies would be an article about a rapist-under-investigation. The Homosexualist (talk) 16:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
      • "Using the female cases for Semenya is an affirmation of innocence" - I disagree, you're reading too much into it. Even if she didn't fit into the IAAF category (I'm not sure that "innocent"/"guilty" is appropriate here, that in itself is a POV), I would still say she be referred to as she. Therefore, use of "she" does not imply "innocence". Furthermore, even if you are right, I disagree that we should somehow use gender neutral terms (which will just lead to awkward phrases). People should be innocent until proven guilty - and that applies on Misplaced Pages BLP articles, where reliable sources are needed to justify her "guilt" in this matter, not merely speculation. Should every other article of a female athelete be changed to use gender neutral terms, because their "innocence" has not been proven? Indeed, why stop there - should we use gender neutral terms for all BLP articles, unless their gender has been somehow proven? Mdwh (talk) 17:24, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
        • No, because not every athlete competing in female competitions has these grave and widespread accusations of misconduct against them. This is only for articles with a controversy. The Homosexualist (talk) 19:58, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
          • So as soon as someone questions a person's gender, we must somehow rewrite their article to not mention "he" or "she" (even at the expense of grammar)? I disagree. And as I say, it's irrelevant because even if she was found to be intersex, transgender, or whatever, we'd still use her preferred identity as per MOS:IDENTITY. If you disagree with that guideline, you should take it up there. If you don't disagree, it's unclear to me why we should worry about using "she", when we'd use female pronouns no matter what the outcome? Btw, do you think the entirety (it seems) of the world's media are being biased by referring to her as "she"? Mdwh (talk) 20:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
            • The IAAF has much greater authority than just any "someone who questions a person's gender". They are spending time and money on this effort, and have a serious interest in the veracity of their competitions. We should not assume prematurely that xe is intersex, or transgender (seriously unlikely), but perhaps a biological male and a fraudster, a situation rightly not explored by MOS:IDENTITY. I do not want this to turn into a discussion about the merits of the popular press, but that press is well-served not to stoke the fire of South African nationalism, and to conform to others' easy use of female pronouns, with little regard to objectivity. The Homosexualist (talk) 20:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
  • CommentThe IAAF is just one of many monied self interest groups. They have their own agenda with regard to athletics irrespective of any other POV. The actuality appears to be that the athlete has always regarded herself as female and should therefore continue to be regarded that way unless she herself decides that a change is appropriate. The IAAF cannot determine gender or sexuality in any sense of the word as there is more to gender than the outcome of a series of biological scientific tests. There are plenty of males in the world with hypogonadism resulting in low serum testosterone and they are definitely not female in their view or in the view of others. The tests which the IAAF execute may produce evidence of different hormone levels than a "benchmark" "male" or "female", however this is only of ulimate importance to the IAAF and those who wish to compete within its rules. In writing about this in a reference work we are not bound by IAAF rules but must rely on the basic facts we have. Personal female pronouns should stay unless the athlete requests a change.Celsius100 (talk) 06:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
              • So as soon as someone serious with a lot of money questions a person's gender, we must somehow rewrite their article to not mention "he" or "she" (even at the expense of grammar)? I disagree. Even if we compared this to legal court cases, I don't think we would remove all references to something unless it was proven - all we would do was mention the case in the article. If you have reliable evidence that she's a "fraudster" (which is a stronger claim than her being intersex - and I don't see that the results of the tests alone would determine whether this is a case of fraud), then let's hear it - otherwise, the requirement for reliable sources applies, even more so for BLP. Mdwh (talk) 10:21, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
              • When do in fact by and large follow reliable sources since it's one of our core principles, regardless of their alleged lack of objectivity Nil Einne (talk) 22:01, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
          • Homosexualist, given that the IAAF have now came out and said they 'do not suspect cheating but wanted to determine if he has a "rare medical condition" giving her an unfair advantage', perhaps you should withdraw your claim that there are 'grave and widespread accusations of misconduct' against her? And also perhaps consider this a good lesson in why you need to take great care in WP:BLPs rather then making wild claims (even in the talk page) about living individuals that aren't actually supported by the sources and instead learn to approach things with an open mind and follow the sources without your own intepretation? Nil Einne (talk) 21:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
            • As comments dated from before the IAAF buckled under South African political pressure, and ones quite more moderate than you make them seem in context, I feel no such compulsion. Moreover, I reject your moralizing, witch-hunting, and personal attacks against editors as unconductive to the creation of a collaborative Encyclopedia article. —the Homosexualist (talk) 01:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
  • She should be referred to as a she. That's how reliable sources do it, plus MOS:IDENTITY applies without too much stretching. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 15:47, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
    • There were no gender questions at the time sources recorded her race and when she was profiled shortly thereafter. Now, newspapers have made the politically expedient decision to use Semenya's popular gender ("Reaction in South Africa towards the IAAF's actions has been mainly negative, and a number of athletes, including Michael Johnson, have criticized the way that the governing body handled the situation.") It's likely that sources using male or neutral pronouns were selected out, too. The Homosexualist (talk) 16:04, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I tend to agree with most of thecomments above, and especially Mdwh's. Personally, I have no problem with Misplaced Pages referring to her as "she", given that this is how she identifies hereself and there is no current evidence in reliable sources to prove otherwise. If the test reveals that she is not female, then the issue may need revisiting, but at the same time is she continues to self-identify as a woman we may be best off sticking to the guideline anyway. - Bilby (talk) 01:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
  • We should refer to Semenya as "she," if only because it is polite. If it turns out that Semenya is really a man who knowingly and willingly committed gender fraud, then we can change the article to "he." Under any other circumstances, up to and including finding out that Semenya is an intersex person of any sort, we should continue to use Semenya's preferred pronouns, even if none of our sources do. This, I feel, is in keeping with Misplaced Pages's mission to maintain an encyclopedic tone. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
  • She I agree with User:Darkfrog24, only if it turns out that Semenya is really a man who knowingly and willingly committed gender fraud should we even consider doing anything else. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I note that The Homosexualist is continuing to rewrite the article to remove any personal pronouns, despite the consensus above that using female personal pronouns is fine. Technically there isn't a rule that "personal pronouns must appear in an article" of course, but I'm concerned at butchering grammar and readability in order to achieve it. And whilst The Homosexualist cites POV grounds, I would argue that it's this that's pushing a POV - namely the POV that she should not be referred to as "she".

And if The Homosexualist wants to compare the pronoun use to her possible "guilt" (which isn't relevant, as we'd still use female pronouns even if she was intersex or male, as long as that was her preference), then I'd argue that removing all references is itself a POV that we should consider her guilty (someone should be innocent until proven guilty - and every other article for female athletes use gender pronouns). Mdwh (talk) 10:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Comment This is an RfC in search of a problem. She identifies as a woman and apparently was awarded the gold medal after the agency did a "gender test." Really we have no reliable sources to support any more nonsense. And no we don't corrupt articles just to remove pronouns - quite unneeded. She is a young woman and the article reflects that until reliable sources suggest that we do otherwise. If and when that happens we report things NPOV. -- Banjeboi 12:48, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment This is a biography of a living person. Any actions which indicate that we are casting doubt on Semenya's gender are potentially libelous and must be avoided. This could include the removal of gender indicating personal pronouns. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2009 (UTC) Just in case this is unclear, we should not remove personal pronouns but use the female forms naturally. Martin Hogbin (talk) 13:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Semenya identifies as a "she", although she appears tomboyish in some news accounts and apparently has a rather deep voice for a woman. Nonetheless, it is evident that she identifies as a woman , even though she doesn't adhere to traditional gender roles or gender standards. — Rickyrab | Talk 13:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment As per MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP, we should identify her according to her preference unless there i evidence for an active dispute that it is really how they identify. The IAAF have asked for verification that she didn't gain an unfair advantage, but as others have mentioned their only concern is their rules. Even if she fails the verification, that is irrelevant when it comes to choosing the pronoun for her. (Obviously we should mention any significant controvery) Some people have mentioned women pretending to be men during war time and I agree if there is ever strong evidence that she never identified as female but lied about that then we can revisit this issue but there is absolutely no evidence for that at the current time and even if the IAAF rule against her that won't change this. Editors may also want to check out Gender verification in sports and Santhi Soundarajan where we follow these policies Nil Einne (talk) 14:07, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment We should identify this individual according to her stated preference (female). It is acceptable and necessary to report the controversy and its results, but as she refers to herself as female the feminine pronouns should be used throughout, and should continue to be used afterwards regardless of the findings of the athletic organization unless she chooses to start referring to herself otherwise. Nutiketaiel (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment: If she, her family, her coach and teachers at Pretoria U have known all along that she is male and are perpetrating fraud, then our reliable sources will call her "he" and we will do likewise. Otherwise we are to call her "she". (My suspicion is that she may have something like undiagnosed Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), in which case she's still female, but IAAF may decide that the condition should have been discovered and treated. That will be IAAF's problem.) - Hordaland (talk) 21:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment The "dispute" in MOS:IDENTITY refers to disputes about what gender identity the individual in question expressed at a given moment, not to disputes about whether an individual's genotype and their gender identity are conforming. Caster Semenya is legally a woman, self-identifies as female, and the only reason to change pronouns in her case would be if she changed her self-identification. This is not a "Juwanna Mann" or "Some Like It Hot" scenario; Semenya has been legally and socially identified as female for her whole life. IceCreamEmpress (talk) 23:58, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Problem_at_Caster_Semenya

Check it out if you're interested. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 00:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Mentioned on Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, reasonably enough. - Hordaland (talk) 22:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


(message without heading)

HELLO THERE WIKIPEDIA, CASPER WAS BORN ON POLOKWANE THE FORMER PIETERSBURG - PLEASE CHANGE THAT, IT WAS CALLED PIETERSBURG DURING THE APARTHEID GOVERNMENT AND CHANGED TO POLOKWANE AFTER THE DEMOCTATIC GOVERNMENT... THANK YOU (Unsigned comment 25 August 2009 by 155.234.240.25)

Under the same logic, we would say Vladimir Lenin was born in Ulyanovsk, Russian Federation instead of Simbirsk, Russian Empire. But we don't, because that would amount to historical revisionism. Semenya was born in Pietersburg. —the Homosexualist (talk) 01:47, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I thought the same thing, but we are actually supposed to use the name that the city had at the time of the historical event in question, in this case a person's birth. That way we say that Immanuel Kant was born in Prussia, not Russia. Here is the archived discussion. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:12, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

References

  1. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1208227/She-wouldnt-wear-dresses-sounds-like-man-phone-Caster-Semenyas-father-sex-riddle-daughter.html

Gender Questioning

As far as I'm concerned, if Semenya was a white person, huge headlines about her wouldn't've been made. The media are biast.

If 'she' is a guy, why couldn't they say so quietly, not tell the whole world?

124.187.16.95 (talk) 01:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Don't these women disprove your "bias" theory? None of them seem to have been black. Eventually, it was going to happen to an African as well. Chrisrus (talk) 18:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Possible source

Recently deleted comment

A have deleted a comment about racism and sexism as being too inflammatory in the current situation. Once we are allowed to say that some sources say that the controversy is racist and sexist, we then invite comments along the lines of, 'some sources say that she has competed unfairly/is really a man' etc.

I think we should stick to using only sources that state facts rather than opinions, for the time being at least. Martin Hogbin (talk) 16:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Notable opinions that are sourced are fine. We don't delete content because it's uncomfortable, we work to prevent it neutrally and dispassionately. -- Banjeboi 01:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree, Martin's reasoning is faulty. You and I agree that it's silly to say that the questions have anything to do with her race or nationality, we know that this has happened many times before to white atheletes who seemed to be men. But the fact is, they did "go there", in a big way, in many notable and reliable sources. If you are worried about it, you can easily add a cited sentence of why "these questions wouldn't be asked if she weren't black" is obviously wrong. But you were wrong to delete a summary of recent press reports related to the Semenya case based on the fact that it's a sad thing that they had to "go there". 72.230.11.240 (talk) 02:21, 29 August 2009 (UTC)
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