Misplaced Pages

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Doubts

I see that the user from 67.x.y.z has been having a field day with this page. While I can appreciate enthusiasm, some of the edits are on a very slippery slope. For example:

• Marco Polo is alleged to have been born on the Croatian island of Korčula, to a Slavic family called Polić natively but changed to de Polo in order to naturalize to the Venetian government (Dalmatia was mostly ruled by Venice those days), and later moved to Venice themselves. The de Polo's still live in Korčula today (my mother happens to be from there so I know for sure), and there's a house that's a small tourist attraction because it's "the birthplace of Marco Polo", but whether the explorer himself was (or the extent of his heritage) from this family is not so certain AFAIK.

• Joseph Haydn was from Burgenland (Gradišće), a province in easternmost Austria today that's known to be inhabited by many Croats (gradišćanski Hrvati), and many of his compositions are recorded by him as coming from folk songs. There are families in Croatia called Hajdinjak and similar, so many speculate that Haydns were originally Croats from Burgenland, but again, this is not at all certain.

• Rudjer Josip Boscovich was from Dubrovnik, and he was definitely a famous citizen of a Croatian city, but it's pretty stretched to outright declare him Croat. See the long discussion on that talk page.

Serbian --Igor

• Emile Zola is speculated to be Croat by some French scientist apparently amicable towards the Croats in general, based on some Croatian-sounding terms used in his literature? Very stretched to say the least.

• Nikola Tesla was from Croatia but was from a Serb family (probably originally Vlachs due to the last name), not Croat.

You are embarrassing yourself as usual, Tesla is not a Vlach surname, it is a plowing tool, Slavic word. See town of Teslić as well. --Igor

I think I also saw several Croatian Jews listed -- the extent of their naturalization should probably be verified before declaring them Croats.

Also there's Slavoljub Eduard Penkala, who was not ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Croat. Conversely, Ivo Andrić was ethnically Croat but willfully became naturalized Serb. I suppose listing both kinds is the best compromise, but I'm not sure if that's the consensus.

So, anyway, my point is: tread lightly. --Shallot 17:46, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

John Malkovich

As for John Malkovich- http://www.allstarz.org/~malkovich/financial.html Even though of Croatian and Scottish descent, Malkovich had a relatively typical Midwestern upbringing in the small Illinois town of Benton, some 300 miles south of Chicago. His father published a conservation magazine and his mother ran the local newspaper. So there was no reason for the chubby and much-ridiculed John to be interested in sophisticated European culture -- until he went to college. In 1976 he dropped out of a drama degree at Illinois State University, moved to Chicago and co-founded with several old friends the Steppenwolf Theatre Company, where he acted in and directed works by classic and modern European authors. It would become one of the most recognised regional groups in the US.

As much as Malkovich values its tradition and way of life, he says Europe is "not a place I take incredibly seriously: after all, it was the homeland of the Inquisition, totalitarianism, genocide and the invention of several bloody crusades". He also has harsh words for its media for what he deems unfair treatment of the US.83.131.114.18 21:30, 2 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Not only that, but he recently (2003) came to Croatia and commented publically on his two grandparents who emigrated from the country into the States. --Shallot 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And not only that: I remember that back in 1991, Malkovich made a TV spot (actually, it was conceived by Croatian-American artist Nenad Bach) wherein he recited IN CROATIAN first 5-7 lines of Croatian National anthem "Lijepa naša domovino". It was a sign of support for the Croatian struggle for independence in war against Serbian aggression.Mir Harven 13:07, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

John Malkovich is actually of Serb origin and not of Croatian origin. His last name is of Serb origin and even though he says he's from Croatia, he's not actually a Croat. This hymn reciting was a mistake and he didn't really know what they were asking of him. He admitted that later on in print. Croatia used to have a large Serb minority until 1992 when they were prosecuted and ethnically cleansed from Croatia. BBC has him listed as of Serb origin: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/tennis/features/newsid_2893000/2893189.stm

Even if all you said was true, and I'm far from convinced it is esp. the blather at the end, none of that that would preclude his listing on this page. --Shallot 18:46, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

OK, BBC puts him as Serbian, now what guys, BBC is Greater Serbian propaganda too? A Maljkovic christened me and he is Serbian (from Lika), now what. I am taking him off just like Tesla and Pete Maravich. You Croats are going to have to find someone else to steal celebrities from, I suggest you claim Leonardo da Vinci on top of Marco Polo, Mozart as well as Haydn. --Igor

Just for the record, I have not been able to confirm anything about this admittal of Malkovich's, it's rather unsurprising to see Serbs and Croats with the same last and/or first names, and it's also entirely unsurprising to see Igor badmouth "us Croats" for whatever. I looked up Maravich and it seems that he was a Serb so that listing was apparently plain wrong (committed by the anonymous 6x.y.z.w user, I should mention), and the Polo and Haydn entries committed by the same user are also on shakey ground, but using that as an excuse to remove Tesla altogether is just too transparent. --Shallot 16:59, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Rename

It occurs to me that a better title for the page would be list of Croatians, because that doesn't imply ethnic nationalism, rather a link with the country, which may or may not be combined with ethnicity. And to avoid any claims of misappropriation, ethnic classification and/or name of political entity that controlled the place a person was from can be added next to each name. --Shallot 22:15, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Done now. Should be reasonably uncontroversial now. --Shallot 12:57, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

More Doubts

Eh, that anonymous user went through the whole page like a tornado again... among other questionable things, Pope Sixtus V Croatian?? I googled and found some site from Herceg Novi saying he was the son of a Serb... brrr, this looks like another Pandora's box. --Shallot 00:13, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The page Bokeljs adds a somewhat explanatory twist on this story. --Shallot 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Rick Rossovich

Found another odd case: Rick Rossovich, an actor from California, had a great-great-grandfather who lived in Mošćenička Draga (on the coast in the Istria county). His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina, but the aforementioned place is not. --Shallot 22:31, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Quot"His IMDb entry, however also has an entry saying that this person was actually a Serb from Krajina". I suppose you mean http://www.us.imdb.com/name/nm0001685/bio ? This is a complete nonsense, added by some propagandist. There are no Rosović Serbs in "Krajina", and one can very well see this by typing this surname into search window of Cro phonebooks, http://www.htnet.hr/imenik/fset.html . Well, type Rosović, and you'll find 12 persons, all Croats (according to first names-one of them Hrvoje/Croat) in and around Mošćenićka Draga. Judging from clumsy syntax and pathetic effort to inform the public that "Krajina" (written as "Kranija") is not to be confused with Croatia or anything Croatian- it's pretty obvious that Serbian agitprop had been nosing around. I've seen Rossovich IMDB bio and there was no "Krajina" part. Then I've written in Wiki he was of Croatian ancestry. And, lo and behold- magically, "Krajina" ad appears on the Rossovich bio page. Coincidence. Yeah, in some parallel universe.Mir Harven 23:53, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I had a bad feeling about it given the geographical inconsistency and bad spelling. How perverse. Thank you, I've just submitted the correction to the IMDb staff. --Shallot 02:14, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Thanks from Shallot

ChrisO, thanks for extending the introduction, though I doubt that it will help much with handling the abuse of those who consider the mere notion of association with a word involving the letters "C"/"H" and "R" is something abhorrent, and there certainly seem to be enough of those to go around... --Shallot 14:07, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What did I tell you... --Shallot 21:38, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

More on Haydn

I've taken Haydn off the list again. Look, even William Hadow, who seems to have been a pretty ardent Croatianist, only speculated that Haydn was Croatian, and offered only circumstantial evidence. Moreover, a lot of Hadow's "evidence" is utterly subjective and based only on nationalist stereotypes.

If there is solid documentary evidence, gathered since Hadow's day, that Haydn was of Croatian ancestry, I'd be happy to see this claim restored to the page. But speculation in the Misplaced Pages should labeled as such, not presented as fact. --Opus33 22:09, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This anonymous user is really making a mess... --Shallot

Maradona

Maradona is not a Croatian player thats for sure!!!!! Avala 13:22, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I just found some info that some croatian TV once said but never confirmed again that Maradona has roots in Croatia. It was said something like his grand grand grand father from mothers side was Croat. Even if this is true than you can say grand grand grand father of Maradona was Croat but you have to provide his name too.

For an example- Elizabeth II has family roots in Serbia but she is still English not Serbian.

Yeah, the overzealous anonymous user is at it again. I've moderated him on several occasions now... *shrug* --Shallot 18:44, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Just for the record, the best information I dug out about this was this short article that references other works but doesn't name them, and it's just one great-grandmother. --Shallot

Ovu informaciju, navodi, duguje Ljeposlavu Periniću, "hrvatskom kralju lutaka". Perinić, Hrvat koji je nakon drugog svjetskog rata emigrirao u Argentinu, rođen je 1922..

I think that we all know who was runnig to Argentina after WWII :(

Avala 11:47, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Not that this is particularly relevant to the matter at hand, but if you think he must have been a fascist, no, that doesn't really have to be. There's was economic emigration, as well as Communism-related emigration at that time. Anyway, again, the primary source isn't the guy who told something to Žubrinić, but the referenced French geneaologist. --Shallot 16:20, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

but still if my grand mother is from papua new guinea i am not papuan new guinean :) and we are talking about grand grand grand... Avala 16:25, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You would still have Papua-New-Guinean ancestry and if there was a list of such people, it wouldn't be entirely unreasonable to have you listed. A great-grandmother (as in this case) is not exactly close, but if one of his daughters is called Dalma, then it's not unreasonable to assume that he is aware of his links to that branch of his family.

Anyway, the right thing to do would be to exclude the corner cases from the main list and have them in a separate section. --Shallot 16:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Surname, Name format

It seems that the Surname, Name format has proven to be rather hard to maintain. We could get rid of all those pipe links and keep the page consistent easier. --Shallot 18:11, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Croat

"This is a list of more or less famous people with Croatian heritage, born in or associated with Croatia or of Croatian ancestry, including both Croats and members of Croatia's national minorities:"

From the top of the page. If Avala wishes to create a page of List of ethnic Croats who are also Croatian citizens, please go ahead. However this page isn't it. Like all other country list pages it takes in those of Croat ethnicity wherever they live and those born in Croatian who aren't ethnic Croats. Rmhermen 23:56, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)

AHM AHM Mario Andretti was born in Italy and he is on the list just because that part of Italy is now Croatian!!!!! We can even add Dennis Rodman because he visited Croatia last summer! Why not add anyone who lived in SFRY after all Croatia was part of it so everyone born in SFRY are connected to Croatia and they can be on the list. Also I told you taht your denial of fascism is scaring me! Avala 12:45, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

If Andretti doesn't qualify (parents emigrated after WWII?), that's okay, you don't have to apply reductio ad absurdum with Rodman/SFRY to remove him. The introduction rather clearly delineates who is included. Note also, claiming Istria is "that part of Italy" is rather POV... We can't and shouldn't exclude regions that weren't Croatia forever because then we'd have to exclude them all -- it was all Illyria/Illyricum before. Same goes for most other places in the world... I've no idea what is meant by the fascism reference... --Shallot 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

His article says they fled Yugoslavia and lived in a displaced persons camp. Sounds like a borderline case but he did live in Croatia for a short time. Rmhermen 18:54, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

I looked up Mario Andretti's history a bit. His birthplace was part of a modern state (of Italy) and his family was Italian. Perhaps suitable for the corner case section... --Shallot 19:34, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

NO. He is suitable for list of Italians because ,I will say again, this is not a list of people connected to Croatia, it clearly says list of Croatians and if he is Italian then I don`t know what are you trying to prove? Maybe you have inferiority complex because there are not enough world famous sportsman that are Croatian so you are laying claims for other people by saying they are Croatian but please heal your problems with your psychiatrist not Misplaced Pages! Avala 07:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You seriously need to chill out. It's enough that we have one person who cannot be talked to, we don't need another.

Also, there needs to be consistency. Nino Benvenuti was also born in the period between the world wars in Istria, and you haven't removed him. --Shallot 13:51, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK. Now they are both deleted and please don`t add them again because it is misleading to have them on this page.Avala 19:59, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I would like to keep it that way, but it seems that the anonymous user just won't give up. I think if we provide the explanatory paragraph that this may placate them. --Shallot

Anonymous user? WHO IS anonymous user TO MAKE MESS IN HERE? BAN HIM!Avala 19:27, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps we could establish whether these two gentlemen were ever Croatian citizens. If Andretti was a citizen and lived there a couple years before fleeing, I would say include him as a corner case. If his family fled immediately than he really has no connection. I couldn't find any information in English on Benvenuti -did he live in Croatia at all? Rmhermen 20:37, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)

I think No. Maybe at most a year but in hell of life running away from revenge because of what fascist Italians did in WWII. On official website there is not a word about Croatia.Avala

Maradona

IF YOU WANT TO SAY THAT MARADONA IS CROATIAN THEN YOU ARE WRONG-SAY LIKE THIS GREAT GRAND GRAND MOTHER OF MARADONA CALLED XY WAS CROATIAN. IF YOU WANT TO ADD MARADONA CHANGE THE NAME List of Croatians TO List of People Somehow connected to Croatia! Avala 12:49, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't think anyone other than the anonymous user is saying that. They are way overzealous and need to be corrected. If they insist on reverting the page, they will get banned... --Shallot 16:36, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ivan Duknovic

http://users.tyenet.com/kozlich/baroque.htm

http://www.amb-croatie.fr/culture/renaissance_croatie.htm

More to come. Mir Harven 17:48, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't think I removed this... I traced that person's pseudonym that has an article already, and moved the page accordingly, but it needs work. --Shallot 17:54, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Latest crap commits

This time it wasn't just the 6x.y.z.w anonymous user, it was also User:GeneralPatton :( FYI: the ordering is alphabetical, the word "hero" is entirely unsuitable, explain on Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic how it's a "lie" before changing his entry here (let alone removing it!), Kurjak certainly seems to be from Croatia even if you wish to insult him for being Bosniak and mafia, Branko Lustig has a page so you can list his religion there, etc, etc. Kindly refrain from further mass-demolition. --Shallot 11:40, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

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