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Paris portal

Hello! Just thought I'd drop by to comment on your work on the Paris portal. As I've said before, it looks extrememly impressive. However, I should warn you that your opening section is teetering on POV... we tried something like that with London and it didn't go down well...

Other than that it's looking pretty smart! Keep it up! Deano 20:27, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Well... as much as it pains me to say it, it is what I consider to be the best bit - the opening section. Specifically, the lines

"Your guiding beacon through the city of light.

Find with ease everthing Wiki concerning the city of Paris, capital of France.

The City, its history, its people, its life, its talents, its sights, its attractions, its tastes...

Geographic portals are always liable to be slightly POV because they are usually maintained by locals from that area. However, they must remain encyclopediaic (dunno if that's a word or not!) and refrain from anything that promotes the page, the subject or pretty much anything... It sucks, I know! Deano 20:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Well I think that may well be the issue... I think I am right in saying that no other portal has any sort of introduction other than stating its name. And some don't even have that.

There are two schools of thought about portals at the moment. One is that all should look the same - have the same format and structure so that users benefit from consistency. The other (the one I subscribe to) is that each portal should be individual and best reflect the subject area with which it is dealing.

Your portal elegantly fits into the latter - very individualistic and quite different.

Unfortunately, we came to an assumed compromise whereby portals could look how they wanted, as long as they followed a similar structure and maintained the key attributes to a good portal. The problem for you is that your first box is absolutely unique to the Paris portal - every other portal on wikipedia has a section of its main article as its opening box (i.e. P:L has the opening to London; Portal:Christianity opens with text from Christianity).

Basically... I think your introductory box is too good... too unique!!! Which annoys me, because I totally support greater individuality for portals. Hopefully you understand what I mean! Just browse throught other portals on the namespace, and you'll see it first-hand! Deano 21:10, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Welcome

Seems that no-one has yet done this so.... Welcome!

Hello ThePromenader, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• Tutorial
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Misplaced Pages:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome!  Ian13 20:29, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Hello again! Just took a glance in poping-by to see how you are doing, and you seem to be getting along well, which is nice to see. I wish you all the best in helping making WP even better than you already have. Ian 18:11, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Return greetings

Excellent work indeed, from one who loves all things French (in my perfect world, I'd have an apartment in Paris and go there often...) I have a lot of French subjects on my watchlist to check for vandalism. Happy editing! Antandrus (talk) 22:35, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very very much indeed, and glad to know you're there! Take care! ThePromenader 11:10, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Paris

Hi, (trying to speak English because I have not so many occasions ;)

If I understand correctly, CIG929394 is not really an administration, but an organization that helps civil servants managing their career inside the administration. I had never heard of it before.

BTW, your web site is stunningly beautiful. Hope it will reach my district (13th)... Thbz 08:51, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Paris cats

Hi mate - nice to see the portal up on the namespace! Major thing I just noticed - your category box does not link to the categories! You might want to sort that out! Looks awesome though - I like what you've done at the top! Deano 19:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Under Portal conventions (they're there to be broken I suppose), the "Categories" box should contain categories that exist. The majority of those listed in your category box are just plain text... and therefore have no basis as a "Category"... I would delete them but obviously you'd wonder why! But I don't think it can remain in its current format. Either remove non-existant categories, or locate the correct ones. Without blowing my own trumpet, the Category box at P:London is pretty much what you're looking for. There are plenty of other goods ones out and about - P:UK is a good starting point. Deano 22:22, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

P:UK is a very nice example. : ) Actually I'll get to linking things up when I can - all of my "Wikitime" has these past weeks been spent trying to improve one trifling page. There is another problem - the categories around Paris (transport, entertainment, etc) are a mess, so even before I can link there I must clean up first. If you do feel the need to delete go ahead and I'll link up later. Thanks for the heads-up and cheers. ThePromenader 15:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

List of streets in Paris (Afd)

Salut, J'ai crée des souslistes - donc, à mon avis, on peut maintenant écraser l'originale. Les liens commencent à Streets dans Portal:Paris. Dlyons493 Talk 21:35, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi, The data's all there on your very elegant portal - see the Streets link I took the liberty of adding (under Districts) FYI - you have a duplicate Avenue Foch :-) Dlyons493 Talk 22:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

• More by way of experiment than anything else I've created Rue Zadkine. Comments appreciated. Dlyons493 Talk 02:22, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• • Hi, Deleting these pages is no big deal. We can perfectly well start from having no links at all (in the usual way) but I had hoped that starting with red links would be better for encouraging blue link creation. There's enormous scope for creating useful articles on Paris streets - I found writing Rue de l'Abbaye very interesting and informative. Dlyons493 Talk 00:29, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Award!

I am pushing it abit, but still:

Add it to your userpage as you so wish! Ian_ID:540053 20:59, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Paris streets

Feel free to take anything you want from fr:Catégorie:Rue parisienne... I have also created categories for each arrondissmeent on Commons (see commons:Category:Paris). In my opinion, the easiest way to find something in the Nomenclature on paris.fr is to use Google with the name of the street and the word "nomenclature": it works almost always... Thbz 18:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Pour ce qu'il concerne le 'base des données', je suis justement en train de mettre les touches finales sur une solution plus "efficace" - je te tiendrai au courant. Pour le reste, merci ! : ) ThePromenader 10:28, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

The Return of "Streets of Paris"

Hi, I'll have a think about this over the next week. I'll certainly contribute something to the project which I feel is a most worthwhile one. In fact, sad to say, I've already contributed a significant proportion of the existing streets with Rue d'Abbaye, Rue Zadkine and Boulevard de la Zone (the first and last entries in the list of Paris streets). But I expect others will take up the baton and run with it. My main concentraion will remain communes though - je resterai avec mes moutons à Misplaced Pages:WikiProject French communes. I'll think about ways to categorise the streets. Dlyons493 Talk 23:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Street Infobox

That's a good idea - I'll retrofit it to the articles I created when I get time. Dlyons493 Talk 22:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Totally disputed tag

The totally disputed tag is both excessive ("totally disputed") and inapropriate, because you are the only user disputing some (not all) elements of the article. If any user who disputed any element of any article on Misplaced Pages was to use the tag, I bet almost all articles on Misplaced Pages would have a totally disputed tag. The tag is used for big issues which involve many users, check for instance Anti-German (ideology). Hardouin 11:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

"Totally disputed" = "the entire article, POV and facts." Stop grasping at straws please. And keep discussion on the Paris article public, that is to say on the Paris article Talk page; I have nothing to hide in all this. In the meantime, until you have proven or fixed the disputed content, you will leave the "disputed" tag where it is, as your refusal to engage in pre-emptive discussion, constant reverting, refusal to see reason or provide sources has indeed turned this into a dispute. Thank you.

THEPROMENADER 16:41, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I have already answered many times on the talk page the points you dispute on the talk page. Re-read my previous answers. Even user Stevage said there was nothing wrong about talking of "Greater Paris". The tag is based on your, and yours only, disagreement with the article. That doesn't justify a totally disputed tag, otherwise everybody would be free to add totally disputed tags on any article they want. Hardouin 23:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

You have answered to nothing and changed nothing. Your writ is of your own invention and comes from no citable reference; if this is false, you have yet to prove it. You use the term "Greater Paris" but once, and when you do you misuse it. Stevage also admitted he knew little on the subject - this is not the case with me. Stop grasping at straws. You will answer to your misconceptions, allow improvement or you prolong the dispute. Period. I will continue to replace the tag as long as you remove it without fulfilling the above conditions, so don't bother. You're only making yourself look more foolish and accomplishing nothing. THEPROMENADER 23:33, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Paris WikiProject

Je vous félicite pour le travail déjà effectué sur tous les articles concernant Paris, et le portail en particulier. Peut-être pourrait-il être intéressant de créér un WikiProject sur Paris en particulier. -- Ze miguel 13:41, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

About the Paris WikiProject: actually, you may have been right in creating a project only for the streets: a project about the whole of Paris might have been too large. The two largest areas for work are the history, and the monuments. If you need, I might be of some help with photographs, I work near the Invalides. -- Ze miguel 08:49, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Bienvenue! Merci ; ) THEPROMENADER 09:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

No problem. Plese tell me if there are pictures you would like added. Take care, -- Ze miguel 08:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Boulevard de l'Hôpital

Hi, I've added your infobox to see how it looks - pretty good! Let me know when you have the map and I'll finish the article off with that. Dlyons493 Talk 19:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the support

Promenader, sorry for not replying earlier, but just wanted to say thanks for your messages and reversions. It's good to know that there are bona fide editors on Misplaced Pages. In answer to your question of Are you knowledgable on the subject?, I am a jack of all trades and a master of none (unless being bone-idle counts as a trade). I am not a professorial authority on any matter but I do have a scientific background which means I abhor personal opinions of professional matters in favour of a rigorous scientific approach. Personally, I am appalled at the blasé approach to some articles - journal editors would throw the author out of the window for submitting articles in such a manner. Thanks again :) Green Giant 23:41, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank for the message, Promenader. I know what you mean about that kind behaviour, you might as well be banging your head on a brick wall for all the good it will do! I was amazed that the best defence he had was a Misplaced Pages article, which he hadn't fully read, but simply cited a line from the introduction. I look forward to working with you on improving the article because Paris should be a showcase article. Green Giant 03:22, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree with you

I couldn't agree with you more, we should stick to official definitions. The aire urbaine should be mentioned only in the context that INSEE intends it for but nothing more than that. Green Giant 14:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the message on my user page. I'm glad you like the changes on the page because I was trying to give it a less formal feeling. As to your point about the Ile-de-France and Paris, I agree with that because the article should be about Paris and not Ile-de-France (which has it's own article). Like you said on the talkpage it's ...chip, chip, chip - reinforcing the POV. I question the need for the Paris infobox to contain metropolitan information as if Paris actually encompasses the whole area. At the bottom of the page is a template for Communes of the metropolitan area of Paris, which should really be entitled Communes of Ile-de-France. Green Giant 13:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Your comment on Dlyons493's talk page

Hi Promenader, thank you for your kind words. Parlez-vous francais? And to answer your query - it's

Je suis galloise, mais je parle un peu français! Encore, merci beaucoup pour ton mots généreux - mais tristessement, je ne pense pas je suis être un administrateur; il y à un beaucoup de votes contre moi. Ça ne fait rien; peut-etre la temps prochaine. À tout à l'heure ;) Proto t c 21:51, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Proto's RfA

Hi, Thanks for your comments on my page - seems to me the natural place to have put them. I'm glad you didn't take his original comments to heart because I felt his comment about the Paris Portal further down that particular AfD was also rather out of place (but I didn't want my cvility point to turn into an attack, so I didn't mention it). He's said that he'll think ahead a bit in future and, if he does, then there's been a positive outcome and wiki will be better for it. I haven't looked back at his contribution history but the RfA comments suggest he can be a bit terse and we have too many abrasive Admins already so I think the feedback he's getting at present is good and I wish him well if he does become an Admin (he certainly will sometime - the question is whether it will be this time around - let the community decide!). Dlyons493 Talk 08:44, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikimedia Canada

Hi there! I'd like to invite you to explore Wikimedia Canada, and create a list of people interested in forming a local chapter for our nation. A local chapter will help promote and improve the organization, within our great nation. We'd also like to encourage everyone to suggest projects for our national chapter to participate in. Hope to see you there!--DarkEvil 17:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Map of Paris

Hi !

Nice map. Do you by any chance have a hi-res version? I'd like to add a map in my article about Haussmann (fr:Transformations de Paris sous le Second Empire). I may use yours and modify it to show which axis were added by the Baron...

Thanks! Thbz 07:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

About Paris

Sorry the Promenader if I haven't replied earlier but I wasn't at home. Indeed, I've seen that there was some kind of argument between you and Hardouin about the way to describe things in the page of Paris. I've simply tried to make my best so that everyone could be happy... and that's why I was happy to see your first message since it was obviously successful. Unfortunately, your other messages proved me wrong but anyway, I'll maybe try again later. The thing is that I don't have a lot of time to try again now. I'll re-try later. Metropolitan 16 February 12:02 (CET)

I've just read your answer and I understand your concerns. The thing is that I believe Hardouin is right to insist on Paris being more a city of the size of 10 million people than of the size of 2 million people. It's important to understand the economical weight of that city in France (about 15/20% of the French population, and 25% of the French economy). France has unusual small municipalities. While in many countries urban areas are fully encompassed into a single municipality, urban areas are often divided in dozens of municipalities in France, even in smaller towns. In the case of Paris, the urban area is divided in about 420 different munipalities (Nearly as many as in the whole Belgium).

The French word "banlieue" is by the way not a perfect translation of "suburb". Indeed, there's the idea of "sub-urbanization" in the english word which doesn't exist in the French word. For instance, about 15 "suburban" municipalities nearby Paris are denser than the densest borough in London (Kensington & Chelsea). The Banlieues aren't necessarily synonymous of urban sprawl in France as it could be the case in other places.

Another problem we have in France is about the urban segregation. Many people consider that Paris is only Paris and not the banlieues for ideological reasons : Paris is beautiful and touristy when suburbs are poor and rioting. As such, many French people tend to exagerate the gap between Paris and its suburbs, when in reality only streets are separating Paris from its suburbs. The "city", what is made of residential or business buildings and not of housings, continues well over the administrative border of Paris. I personally live in a 7-story flat in Issy-les-Moulineaux... and a foreigner who would visit my place would bet that we're still in the city of Paris.

If I say so, it's simply because you shouldn't necessarily trust French people who would say that the suburbs have nothing to do with Paris. Clearly speaking, the 3 departments around Paris (The Hauts-de-Seine, the Val-de-Marne and the Seine-Saint-Denis) are as urban as would be the Queens or Brooklyn in New York City. La Défense, the CBD of Paris, is by the way located in the middle of the Hauts-de-Seine and not in the administrative borders of Paris.

Anyway, I've seen that Paris page is blocked. I'll maybe propose a quick presentation of the organization of Paris in the discussion page. I've seen people are talking about the "petite couronne" and the "grande couronne" without really explaining what it is. Maybe a map would be a good idea to picture the reality of Paris. I'll see what I can do and propose it in the discussion page. Metropolitan 16 february 2006 19:38 (CET)

According to the INSEE, "unité urbaine" (urban area) and "agglomération" are perfect synonymous. Hence I have problems to understand your post as I've talked strictly about the urban area. When it goes about the "aire urbaine" (metropolitan area), I believe the population figure deserves to be mentionned for its economical significance, just like it's the case for most other cities articles in Misplaced Pages. However, outside it's economical relevancy, I agree there's no really other reason to mention the metro area. About the urban area, you seem to agree that it's different as I've seen you agreed with a reference to La Défense, which is administratively speaking outside Paris "Intra-muros".

About Chennevières, that municipality is located at the outskirt of Paris urban area so it may not be the best place to understand what Paris urban area is about.

Here are two maps giving a very accurate face of Paris urban area. Unfortunately, we can't post them in Paris article for copyright reasons. The first one is a satellite picture of the central part of Paris urban area. I've stolen it from the Atlas Universel from Larousse so it cannot be posted in Misplaced Pages (I just show it as a reference). The second one is a map of built-up areas in Ile-de-France. It is the most accurate map I've found and it comes from the Prefecture of the Ile-de-France region (Environment department). Areas which were built before 1982 are pictured in grey. Areas which have been built between 1982 and 1999 are pictured in black. In green are pictured wooded areas and in yellow are pictured fields and wild areas. Obviously, the city of Paris is only the core of the urban area. This is well-pictured on this map. I cannot see any reason to ignore the rest of the urban area in an article about Paris. Metropolitan 16 february 2006 21:55 (CET)

Listen to me ThePromenader. I have no time to lose in stupid considerations such as arguing with someone taking me for someone else. Respectfuly. Metropolitan 18 february 2006 17:31 (CET)