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Facts - I will rewrite it
It's more than obvious, this article is one lost step to reality of visual kei and is talking only about X Japan, what in reality weren't that note as visual kei (because their more normal style). Father of real visual kei who were note about costumes, performance and scene all around, were now-defunct Malice Mizer (their singer, Gackt called prince of visual kei). Today Versailles and Moi dix Mois, is VISUAL KEI (VISUAL STYLE) what should be more note. X Japan, Luna Sea, Dir en Grey and younger bands "had" Visual Kei but with years became more suit for mainstream that just J-rock or Visual Kei in general. (for example, look at the GazettE history) There is different story behind it.. and Japan isn't just rock and pop there are many views to talk about it.
While regarding Japanese pops section; J-POP is Japanese popular music, anything and everthing that exist on musical scene. Other "genre or styles" aren't officially confirmed, but they are (in this case of visual kei and J-rock) style of the musician. But, J-Rock never gain in popularity only because, in Japan is more popular a catchy-one week song than a rock song. People there never totaly looked at rockers as real artists (in comparation from USA who are just posers), but as entertainers. Is different place, world and how things are, J-Rock will be always more than a third thing, - behind Enka and big number of J-POP singers. But either, there are rock bands-boybands who aren't count as J-Rock, but are popular. Either overseas never heared..
Samurai left a great impact of self-peace, while Rock is something different (or just mis-understanding) and I think neither 29% like it. In other hand, a great importance is in what region this band is playing, it's history, label house etc. In political way, their lyrics are (again, from USA non-sense) something* they don't want to be listen. Type of living is more slow but fast, and must work. For some company man, musicians are just entertainers without a school, paper. He is like "nothing", but is "something" (for example Yoshiki, who has respect). It is very complicated thing to talk about.
One of worst written articles on Misplaced Pages. I will re-write it as soon as possible.
Do NOT change anything because page will be RE-WRITTEN.--GreyWolfy (talk) 10:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
Genre Discussion
This dispute of whether visual kei is a music genre or not has been going on for a number of years now, and it seems like people have edited everything to claim it is both: a genre and a fashion movement. But as stated above, in the old genre discussions, it is not a music (sound) genre as there are no musical (sound) characteristics that every visual kei band has. For example: Kaya's (Electronic music), Anti Feminism's (Hardcore) and Kagrra's (Traditional Japanese music) music are nothing alike, yet everyone would agree that they were/are all visual kei bands.
This is not a definite decision, someone please try to provide reliable sources that give these necessary defining musical (sound) characteristics of the visual kei music genre. Sources that claim "visual kei is a music genre" or "a specific band is visual kei, therefore that band's genre is one of visual kei's many", but do not provide the whole genre's defining musical characteristics, are useless. If, in a reasonable amount of time, no one has provided these, then it is clear and settled that visual kei is not a music genre and the article, and every related one, will be edited to display this. Or, if need be, a part in the main article, not the beginning, describing how a number of fans believe it is a music genre contrary to the facts, can be added. Xfansd (talk) 20:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- What you have suggested violates the Misplaced Pages policy "No original research" WP:OR. We cannot decide if visual rock is a genre or not. Instead, we have to find third party sources, and report on what they state. The issue above was resolved by this statement:
- However, other sources state that the term refers primarily to a style of dress or fashion, or sub-culture, and not to a genre of music, and some sources use the term in both ways.
- It was eventually removed as no reliable source stating visual is not a genre could be found. Denaar (talk) 22:40, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know which of my suggestions exactly you are referring to with the WP:OP remark. But you have dodged the genre dispute entirely and are changing the discussion to something else. Before you can write an article with proper research and under a proper format you must decide on what the topic is (is it a genre or a fashion?), this effects how the article will be written and how others can edit to improve it.
- "Some sources state that Visual Kei refers to a music genre, or to a sub-genre of J-rock with its own particular sound, related to glam-rock, punk and metal." This sentence, one of the few that refers to actual music, says "its own particular sound" but there is nothing to describe what this unique sound is. How is it different than glam metal and punk? With this vagueness one is forced to assume that visual kei's sound is all these combined all the time and that every band has this sound, which we know isn't true. Again, sources that describe how the sound is unique are needed to prove it is its own genre and not everything combined, but none are supplied. However sources that claim it is not a unique music genre are not needed since there is no proof that it is one, so nothing needs to be disproved. Therefore the article should be changed and focused on to what is clearly proven and agreed upon, "visual kei is a fashion movement among Japanese musicians, characterized by the use of make-up, elaborate hair styles and flamboyant costumes". We know the fashion is different than that of glam, because of "influences from Western phenomena, such as goth and cyberpunk" which glam didn't have, this makes the visual kei fashion unique and worthy of its own article. Please keep the discussion to: whether it is or is not a music genre. Xfansd (talk) 01:01, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Before you can write an article with proper research and under a proper format you must decide on what the topic is.
- This is incorrect. Misplaced Pages editors do not decide if visual kei is a genre or something else. Instead they find sources and report on what they say. If an editor decides "what it is" and pushes that "point of view," that would be against Misplaced Pages guidelines WP:NPOV. To then write about a point of view without resources would violate original research WP:OR and Verifiability WP:V. These concepts are so important that they are called the "Pillars" of Misplaced Pages. Ideas that can't be backed up with references can't be incorporated into Misplaced Pages. You have an opinion that visual kei is not a genre, but neither my opinion or your opinion matters to the discussion of the content of this article. Denaar (talk) 01:41, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- It is not simply my opinion that it is not a genre but a fashion, you yourself have proven it in the article with proper sources. However you fail to completely prove it is also a genre by not providing the unique musical characteristics of the genre. It is not a music genre as there are no musical characteristics that every visual kei band has. Is this simple and straightforward enough for you to finally focus on the actual discussion that I created this section of the talk page for, which you suggested I do? Xfansd (talk) 18:09, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Editors provide verifiable resources, not "proof". We have verifiable resources to confirm visual is a genre. I am unaware of any policies stating that "proof" is required for music genres in the manner you describe. Please provide the links to those policies. Denaar (talk) 23:36, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 Response to third opinion request:
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| Firstly, remember that Misplaced Pages's focus is on verifiability, not truth. What the majority of reliable sources state should generally be accepted at value, though if there are sufficient sources dissenting then there should be some mention in the article of all points of view, for balance.
In the context of this article, I see Visual Kei as a similar concept to Glam Rock, in which the genre is defined by a distinct visual style, spread across a diverse range of musical styles. I think you'd be hard-pressed to prove a common musical element across all glam rock bands, but nevertheless it is considered a genre and appears in the infobox of various artists, such as Iggy Pop. My opinion on this matter is that there's no need to 'prove' a common musical component to Visual Kei bands, and there should be no problem with including Visual Kei in the genre field of their infoboxes. If the sources imply controversy over whether or not the genre actually exists from a musical perspective, include the sourced dissenting views in the article. As it stands, the sourcing for Visual Kei strikes me as very similar to glam rock, which is fairly broadly treated as a genre.—TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 02:44, 21 March 2011 (UTC) |
Fashion style
1. What was the drastic change in appearance that accompanied the successes of X Japan, Luna Sea, and Glay? Didn't those three bands' appearances change very little if at all between their last indies releases and first few major label releases? I don't remember any of these bands having a moment of drastic change (more of an evolution over time) other than when X Japan members cut their hair, which was well after they were already successful.
2. I see a lot of debate regarding whether visual kei is a real musical genre. Along the same lines: is it a real fashion style? What defines it? For example, caligari looked nothing like Malice Mizer and X Japan in its early days didn't look like either of them. As a fashion style it is even less cohesive than it is as a musical genre. I would say it's a broad musical genre and a scene more than it is a specific fashion style. I think the current first paragraph of this article describes it as well as can be hoped. Ibanez100 (talk) 23:16, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
"Musical genre" sources vs. "fashion style" sources in lead paragraph
After taking a closer look at the citations for the lead paragraph, I am somewhat confused as to their usage. The three citations for the last sentence do all emphasize visual kei bands' costuming, but they also all explicitly use the word "genre" to describe visual kei. Shouldn't these then also be used to cite the "genre" statement? Two of them also explicitly support the statement that the sound of visual kei is related to glam rock, punk, and metal. Conversely, three of the sources used to support the "glam rock, punk, and metal" statement could also be used to support the statement about the emphasis on costuming and presentation.
In other words: the language in the lead implies that the sources used are in disagreement as to what "visual kei" means, when in fact the sources all seem to be in agreement that visual kei is a musical genre related to glam rock, punk, and metal, in which costuming and makeup play a key role. Have I misunderstood something about why each source was chosen for each statement, or do all these sources say a version of the same thing? I don't see any of these sources saying either "it's A not B" or "it's B not A". Ibanez100 (talk) 21:44, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
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