This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Callanecc (talk | contribs) at 04:57, 30 April 2013 (→Clarification request: WP:ARBPIA/Jerusalem: cut). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Clarification request: TimidGuy ban appeal

Initiated by MastCell  at 18:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• MastCell (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Will Beback (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ()
• ImperfectlyInformed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ()
• IRWolfie- (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ()
• SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) ()
• Thryduulf (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) ()

(The list of affected users is simply a list of those who commented in the bottom subthread of this discussion. I've also posted a general note in that thread notifying readers of this request).

Statement by MastCell

In the TimidGuy ban appeal case, Will Beback (talk · contribs) was indefinitely banned from Misplaced Pages. In March 2013, Will stated on his talk page that he had appealed the ban to ArbCom, and that his appeal had been rejected ().

Pursuant to this lengthy but inconclusive discussion, I am requesting the release of the simple vote count by which Will's appeal was declined (that is, a tally of which Arbs supported, opposed, or abstained on the appeal). Failing that, I am requesting a concise explanation of why such a tally cannot be released.

I am not requesting the release of any privacy-sensitive information, although of course individual Arbitrators are free to comment on their reasoning if they choose. MastCell  18:33, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

SilkTork, I am not asking for the release of any internal deliberations. A simple "yes", "no", or "no comment" next to each Arb's name would suffice. If such a process didn't take place, then perhaps a one-word summary of each Arb's position is not too much ask. Failing that, perhaps you could explain why this information needs to remain secret. Finally, while I understand that you believe a vote tally "serves no purpose", a number of editors in good standing have requested the information as a matter of accountability, and clearly believe that it serves that purpose. MastCell  20:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Comment by Collect

I am unaware of any precedent for such a request having any effect on ArbCom, and suggest that iteration of the same points is unlikely to have different results from the request made a short time back. While I am in favour of following "process" I find multiple requests are unlikely to result in much at all, other than many hours and many thousands of characters of discussion leading nowhere. I see no procedural, policy, or guideline basis for demanding vote tallies. Collect (talk) 19:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by ImperfectlyInformed

Will Beback's ban occurred in public (see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy_ban_appeal/Proposed_decision#Will_Beback:_remedies for the vote tally) largely as a result of public evidence, presented above the decision. We know the original story. Even if we don't know what Will's emails to Jimbo looked like, ArbCom unanimously affirmed that Will Beback emailed Jimbo with allegations, and so on. It is unclear why the ban appeal needs to have special treatment such that even the vote tally needs to be kept secret. The denied appeal was never revealed to the community and no official statement was made; Will Beback said he also did not receive an explanation in its rejection. Will Beback apologized at length at his talkpage after the appeal denial (we don't know what his communications looked like, but he has said "I would be happy for any of my statements to the ArbCom to be made public"). Regardless of the result of this request, I intend to edit the policy and open a RfC on the change (I'll hold off so we don't have too many pots on the fire). There is, incidentally, precedent for revealing votes when the appeal is successful (such as Russavia's unblock appeal tally currently at WT:BASC).

On a larger issue, the purpose behind this goes back to Churchill's quote (now a cliche) that "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried" (called the Churchill Hypothesis in academic literature). ArbCom members have expressed concern about politicizing, and I understand that there is some purpose to being more deliberative than an angry mob. However, ArbCom is elected, and we need to know the votes to hold them accountable for their positions.

On a further note, this position of not allowing Will to have a second chance, or even a hint of a public hearing, is plain discouraging to other long-term editors as it suggests a basic lack of fairness and respect for those who have dedicated many hours into improving this encyclopedia. I should also note that I proposed a compromise: a revote, in public, with no requirement to repeat the prior vote. II | (t - c) 20:59, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

Arbitration policy: Committee deliberations are often held privately though the Committee will make public detailed rationales for decisions related to cases, unless the matter is unsuitable for public discussion for privacy, legal or similar reasons. (emphasis mine) While I agree the "working notes" of committee should remain private, a consensus summary statement and vote tallies doesn't seem unreasonable per committee policy. Did the committee make any public announcement? I've reviewed the Timid Guy case and AC/N and am not seeing any. NE Ent 21:50, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Absurd. The scope of the committee does not extend to redefining commonly used English words. It should either follow the policy as written or change the policy to follow practice. The former is preferrable per the research quoted in last October's signpost

ensuring participation and transparency is crucial for maintaining the stability of self-governing communities.
— Schroeder, Wagner, Journal of the American Society for Information Science and Technology

NE Ent 22:48, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

References

1. Schroeder, A., Wagner, C. (2012). Governance of open content creation: A conceptualization and analysis of control and guiding mechanisms in the open content domain. Journal of the American Society for Information Science and Technology 63(10):1947–59 DOI

Statement by IRWolfie-

@Roger Davies, as II has pointed out, Arbcom already releases tallies. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:08, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

@Salvio Are you suggesting that a clarification about a decision made by arbcom related to a case should not be done here? Are you suggesting that this appeal is not a decision related to a case? IRWolfie- (talk) 22:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad I am sure they did vote in good faith, which is why I don't understand why other arbs are declining this measure. The alternative is, that Arbs who have declined to comment will be asked for clarification at the next election in the questions; the tin will be kicked down the road but for no apparent reason that I can discern. It isn't as though people are going to start waving pitchforks at the arbs. The justification that tallies can't be given because it violates a sacred trust or some such just doesn't appear to add up, particularly considering that other tallies have been released. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:36, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps a partial tally could be released, with those refusing to release their position noted as such? IRWolfie- (talk) 23:38, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by SlimVirgin

I support the request that the vote tally be released. If the candidates stand for election again, there are editors who may want to support or oppose based on this issue alone, so we need the information to be an informed electorate.

I would like to add an additional request, namely that the committee agree to re-hear an appeal from Will now in public. I understand from the BASC page that once an appeal is decided, the committee "will not revisit it earlier than six months except at the request of a sitting arbitrator." I'm therefore asking that one sitting arbitrator agree to ask the committee to hear Will's appeal again now, given that the circumstances of his first appeal have caused concern.

Roger suggested below that Will do this, but as he can't edit he's not able to request it here. SlimVirgin 22:54, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by RegentsPark

I know nought about TimidGuy or Will Beback and why they were banned. However, on the face of it, it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for the vote on the appeal. Straw poll or formal vote, one hopes that the process was clear enough to make this information readily available. To RogerDavis's point below, it appears that all that is requested is a tally of votes, not for the release of information "lock, stock and barrel". --regentspark (comment) 01:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Will Beback

Request for public rehearing

I have made public and private apologies for my past behavior, and committed to not repeating the same mistakes. Despite that, my appeal was denied without explanation or indication of how the committee voted. Since then I have seen various, sometimes conflicting reasons for the denial, or the initial ban, and unclear statements as to whether or not the committee even voted on my appeal. For those reasons, I am requesting a public rehearing of my appeal to my ban which resulted from Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/TimidGuy ban appeal. This is per the invitation of Roger Davies.   Will Beback  talk  02:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Posted here by Will. SlimVirgin 02:07, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Decline. It wasn't a vote tally, it was a discussion held on the understanding that it was held in camera. Also, such a vote tally serves no purpose. Will can appeal again in six months, and hopefully when he does, he will address the concerns that have been shared with him. That is the appropriate way of dealing with this matter. SilkTork 19:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

• Decline release of tallies. Tallies in straw polls are informal documents created purely for the purpose of seeing which way the wind is blowing. They help They are part of the process of deliberating. What's more, they are rarely binary and usually express nuanced thoughts and positions. By releasing tallies, the committee would be releasing, in effect, private working papers. The committee handles too much sensitive stuff to establish a precedent that it should disclose deliberations lock, stock and barrel whenever the torches and pitchforks come out. If something is done in private with a reasonable and legitimate expectation of privacy, it's private. On the other hand, there has never been a problem with individual arbitrators stating, should they wish to do, what their position is on a particular issue.  Roger Davies 20:02, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • @II. The obvious thing to do is for WBB to request a review of his ban here. I have no difficulty with that at all and it mystifies me why this hasn't been done. Instead we've got this request based purely on procedural stuff, which isn't really of that much significance. (I've added "release of tallies" to my Decline above, to make it clearer what I'm declining.)  Roger Davies 21:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• If MastCell wants to factor this failure to unban Will Beback into his vote come December 2013/4, he should be able to. I am disappointed in Arbitrators who opined that the appeal ought to be dismissed and are choosing not to reveal that fact to the public. NW (Talk) 20:52, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• MastCell, this is not what clarification/amendment requests are for. In my opinion, if you wish to know how an individual arb voted, you should ask him on his talk page. That said, I believe that a more important question for Will to ask would be "why was my appeal declined?", so that he can take that into account when appealing next. This request should be archived. Salvio 21:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • NE Ent, the policy you quote only refers to cases, not to appeals; to my knowledge, the Committee has never made a public announcement whenever an appeal gets declined (considering BASC receives many appeals per week, that would be unwieldy). Declined appeals are usually only discussed with the appellant. Salvio 21:57, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
    • Are you suggesting that this appeal is not a decision related to a case? I believe that, according to current practice, appeals are not decisions related to cases, at least not in the sense meant by Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy#Transparency and confidentiality: declined appeals have never been publically discussed. Salvio 22:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• My internal comment when we considered this appeal in February was, in substance: "For us to decline this appeal, this long after the decision was issued and despite Will Beback's note to us, would be to say that Will Beback is one of Misplaced Pages's worst editors: that there is no set of restrictions and no amount of guidance that we could provide that would allow him to edit productively and within policy on any topic; or that the way he crossed the line with respect to TimidGuy was so unforgiveable that, to revive and modify a well-known phrase, he can never again be a Wikipedian. Given Will Beback's record of contributions, and despite his various failings, I am not prepared to say that." Accordingly, my vote was to grant the appeal and allow Will Beback to return, subject to appropriately tailored restrictions on his editing to reduce the likelihood of further problems. Because the majority voted to decline the appeal, we did not reach the issue of what the appropriate conditions for a return might have been. I do not feel at liberty to set forth the votes or comments of my colleagues, but I would stress that each of them commented and voted in good faith based on his or her evaluation of the original case and the appeal. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
• I didn't vote in the appeal because large parts of the appeal challenges the findings made in the original arbitration case, but I was unable to find the time to fully examine and evaluate the voluminous public and private evidence and discussions related to that case, and hence could not possibly reach an informed decision. As to whether the tally should be released, I'll defer to my colleagues who have actually voted in the matter. T. Canens (talk) 02:31, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

Clarification request: Scientology

Initiated by Prioryman (talk) at 07:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Prioryman

I'd be grateful if the Committee could clarify a couple of points regarding Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology.

• Under Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Scientology#Editors instructed, the scope of the ongoing discretionary sanctions is defined as "any Scientology-related articles or discussions on any page". Could the Committee please clarify if that applies to all Scientology-related content in all namespaces (i.e. article space, templates, talk pages etc), including subsections of articles that are not wholly about Scientology?

• The project banner for WikiProject Scientology, Template:WikiProject Scientology, includes a notification, apparently added by uninvolved admins following the case, of the editing requirements linked above. As far as I can tell this was not done on behalf of the Committee but seems to have been done as a way of informing editors of the sanctions. The project banner isn't mentioned in the case. Could the Committee please clarify if the application of the sanctions is conditional on the project banner being posted on the talk page of an article that includes content related to Scientology - i.e. if there's no project banner the sanctions don't apply - or whether they apply independently of the project banner being present?

@Salvio: Thanks for the advice, but I'm simply trying to clarify the situation with the scope of the sanctions and the project banner. Thanks for doing so. Prioryman (talk) 18:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Thryduulf

Based on previous statements and clarifications by the ArbCom (not related to Scientology) I would suggest that the discretionary sanctions apply to all Scientology content on Misplaced Pages, including templates and sections of larger articles.

Regarding the template, the key aspect of discretionary sanctions is that editors must be aware of them before they can be sanctioned under them. A notice on the talk page is a convenient way to alert people that the sanctions exist and that that article is within the scope of them. It is not the only way though, for example if you edit warred about adding significant Scientology-related content to Riverside County, California you could not successfully argue that you were not aware of the existence of DS for the topic area even if there wasn't a template on the article talk page. Thryduulf (talk) 09:54, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by Tarc

I have already (grudgingly) conceded the point that that single passage in the article is under Arbcom's Scientology-related purview. We are discussing ways to move forward on the talk page now, regarding how to make it clear to present and future editors that that is the case, and that the list in its entirety is not under discretionary sanctions. JClemens' comment yesterday regarding granularity and mixed-element articles was insightful. Tarc (talk) 12:59, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• In my opinion, EdJohnston's comment is reasonable and that is how I would interpret the restriction as well. An article about Scientology, even when not tagged with the appropriate wikiproject banner, is under sanctions. When only a section of an article deals with the topic in question, then the AE admins have to look at the content of the diffs: a user can be sanctioned if his edits are about Scientology and are deemed disruptive. Furthermore, I also think that discretionary sanctions apply to all namespaces: it would be unreasonable not to sanction an editor who is causing serious disruption during a discussion about any topic under sanctions merely because his conduct occurs in project space.

  That said, I also agree with IRWolfie- that, in the case which prompted your question, the use of discretionary sanctions would have been inappropriate: they are a tool to protect Misplaced Pages, not a club to beat your opponents over the head with.

  Finally, speaking as an editor and not as an Arbitrator, after an AfD, a DRV, an AE thread and a clarification request, will you please remove List of Misplaced Pages controversies from your watchlist and forget about it for at least a month? If there are serious problems, someone else will certainly notice; no need for you to stay there to hold the fort. Salvio 09:41, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• I agree in general with Salvia guiliano's advice. And like him, I will venture to add a comment in my individual capacity and not as an arbitrator. Mine is that it is undesirable for a mainspace article to become a forum for jousting between wikipolitical factions. List of Misplaced Pages controversies is not a battleground. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:50, 26 April 2013 (UTC)
• I too agree with the Arbitration advice given. Is there anything more that needs to be done here? NW (Talk) 15:31, 28 April 2013 (UTC)