Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by N2e (talk | contribs) at 13:39, 14 October 2013 (→Current status?: Where are we on improving the article?, now that editing has been disrupted by an editor with some difficulty following both WP policy and strong consensus from a (now) large group of uninvolved editors in multiple forums.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Rocketry Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rocketry, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of rocketry on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RocketryWikipedia:WikiProject RocketryTemplate:WikiProject RocketryRocketry ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Spaceflight Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spaceflight, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of spaceflight on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SpaceflightWikipedia:WikiProject SpaceflightTemplate:WikiProject Spaceflightspaceflight Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Since I've added some references and I as well as others have expanded and wikified the article, should some of the article issue tags at the beginning of the article be removed?PistolPete037 (talk) 01:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I've removed the "notability" and "wikify" tags, and replaced "unreferenced" with "refimprove". This means that the article is still missing references to a couple of sentences, would require some cleanup, and needs more articles linking to this one. Victao lopes (talk) 00:31, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Potential sources for Lynx

• Here is a recent article from Parabolic Arc on Lynx: Lynx Development Proceeds Towards First Test Flight, 23 Feb 2011. Enjoy. N2e (talk) 07:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Current status?

There seems to be little in the way of hard facts on current status. Um, what is it? --Pete (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, you are asking at a fortuitous time. XCOR is heavy into the year-long process of the build of the first Lynx rocketplane right now, and they began a serious effort at openly communicating their progress during the next year just about two or three weeks ago, with a commitment to do five blog posts a week on the company blog about what's up with them. Those are appearing at XCOR Aerospace blog, five weekdays each week.

While that is a WP:primary source, and thus not the best as a reliable source (by Misplaced Pages standards), a little bit of searching around will no doubt find reliable source space media that are covering the XCOR Lynx build process. I recommend looking at parabolicarc.com or newspacewatch.com.

In the meantime, do keep in mind that this is Misplaced Pages and anyone can edit! So why not take a stab at finding a source or two, and writing that prose for the article yourself, being sure to add a citation (or two, if needed) to support your statement(s). Ping me if you would like some help. Cheers. N2e (talk) 04:09, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - I have an interest in the subject, but the article seems to be mainly press releases and little of substance. I'd be astonished if that Jan 2014 date for operations is met. --Pete (talk) 04:13, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. And I agree with you. In fact, I think it is clear now, per recent published info, that they are not on a glide path for first flight until the roughly year-long build effort (their words) is complete. So quite obviously, as soon as WP:RS are found, and editor interest is marshaled, the article does need updated. Cheers. N2e (talk) 13:20, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

We're not in the business of promoting fantasy. I think a couple of paragraphs on plans and a photo of activity to date - a partial test-firing - should suffice. If any reader wants more information we can point them towards the company's website, which is perhaps the most substantial part of the enterprise. --Pete (talk) 19:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Further to above, I've reviewed the blog, which purports to show bits and pieces of the finished vehicle. There are no photographs of anything resembling a body. Computer graphics and an off-the-shelf nosewheel do not make a concept into a spaceplane.

The most substantial bit of hardware on display is a small trailer with a fuel tank on it - supposedly the engine test stand. Really? One tests a spacecraft engine on something you tow behind your car?. The whole project is little but website and people in a garage, going by the actual evidence. I don't think that we as an encyclopaedia should lend credibility to this puffery. --Pete (talk) 06:54, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, Misplaced Pages is not for promoting fantasy, but Misplaced Pages also does not allow original research; we editors don't get to look at photographs released on a company website and ascertain that "this type of engineering work is NOT development" while "this other type of work IS development."

Multiple reliable sources say the company is currently actively building the first prototype of this spaceplan. The company website says the same thing. NASA has signed some contracts for (future) suborbital spaceflights on this company. Customers have done the same. Advertisers have done the same.

This little spaceplane is WAY beyond mere "concept". At minimum, it is totally appropriate for Misplaced Pages to say it is "being developed". So, yes, the article needs a lot of improvement, but it is not merely a vaporware concept that we are talking about here. Cheers. N2e (talk) 13:43, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you point me to an actual photo of the craft? No. Just small, off-the-shelf parts and some CGI. The thing doesn't exist. I don't need an engineering degree to point out that the emperor has no spaceship. --Pete (talk) 14:44, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

(Uninvolved editor coming here from WT:SPACEFLIGHT) The absence of proof is not proof of absence. There are plenty of other possible explanations for a lack of photographs besides the hardware not existing, and you're going to need to present much stronger evidence if you wish to contest the sourced assertion that it is under development. --W. D. Graham 14:51, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm going through the sources, and those that actually exist either come from one source - XCOR - or are obviously written based on a press release, such as the Popular Mechanics article. Without significant external sourcing, this looks very much to me like a deliberate attempt by someone - presumably XCOR - to boost the visibility of their project. Clearly the article needs a lot of work to reflect the actual status. Now, you're talking about absence of proof. Seems to me that if we don't have good sources, it doesn't matter if XCOR has a fleet of them ready to roll - we need sources, this being Misplaced Pages and not Popular Mechanics. Where are the non-XCOR sources showing that there is an actual vehicle being built? Do we run on press releases and promises? --Pete (talk) 15:07, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Further to above, I think it's pretty obvious that the article as it currently stands is poorly sourced, namely that far too much of it is based on primary sources, when there are good secondary sources available. WP:No Original Research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources is our guiding light here:

• Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them.
• Misplaced Pages articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic or evaluative claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source.

What I'm seeing in the list of thirty sources are thirteen from XCOR (manufacturer) or SXC (ticket sales). I think we can safely list XCOR and SXC as external sources and use the remaining secondary sources and any others that may come up. Some of the sources look very good, some not so much. There's a private blog, and a couple of dead links. We can talk about them on a case by case basis and refer to WP:RSN if need be. Anyone see any problems in rewriting the article to conform to wikipolicy? --Pete (talk) 12:03, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Where are we on improving the article?

NOTE: The user who has been commenting on this page as "Pete" is apparently the same user who has been making the contested edits to the page under the name User:Skyring. I see from looking at the source for some of the above comment that the posts are signed by "Pete"

I have several notes to make here about Pete's (User:Skyring's) edits on this article.

• User:Skyring (Pete) came to this article, and made a bold edit. No foul there. Bold editing is encouraged.
  • Edit summary left was "2013-10-12T07:06:17‎ Skyring (talk | contribs)‎ . . (17,603 bytes) (+7)‎ . . (Doesn't appear to be any actual vehicle. The thing is vapourware.)"
• User:N2e (me) reverted the bold edit with the edit comment: " 2013-10-12T13:14:21‎ N2e (talk | contribs)‎ . . (17,596 bytes) (-7)‎ . . (Undid revision 576824990 by Skyring (talk); no, the flight article is being built right now; ask for better sourcing if you wish, but its quite verifiable)"
• User:Skyring (Pete) quickly reverted my edit, with the edit comment "2013-10-12T19:37:37‎ Skyring (talk | contribs)‎ . . (18,839 bytes) (+8)‎ . . (The "Follow the build" blog shows a worker welding a test fixture. The main piece of equipment in the photo is a box trailer. If the thing doesn't exist, it's a concept. We don't call a windowframe a house.)" Here is the diff].
  • Three fouls here:
    • Starting an edit war
    • Failing to follow the ordinary process of Bold, Revert, Discuss in order to avoid disruptive editing. Allow a bit of time for the DISCUSSION to get to a consensus.
    • Looking at phtographs on a blog to determine Misplaced Pages article content: that is OR|orignal research, plain and simple.
• User:N2e (me) reverted that single word added once again, this time explicitly asking Skyring to discuss this on the Talk page using the BRD process. Edit summary: "2013-10-13T01:39:48‎ N2e (talk | contribs)‎ . . (18,828 bytes) (-8)‎ . . (revert edit by skyring; the spaceplane is, in fact, being developed. If you want to discuss this second reversion of your attempt to change the lede sentence, take it to the Talk page per WP:BRD and discuss it there)" Here is the .
• User:Skyring (Pete) added the word "concept" again, for the third time. "2013-10-13T06:47:11‎ Skyring (talk | contribs)‎ . . (18,836 bytes) (+8)‎ . . (The thing does not exist. We have no sources beyond puff.)" Here is the diff.
  • Again, this is a foul: failing to follow WP:BRD by failing to allow the D part of the process, Discussion, to work itself out to consensus on the Talk page.
• User:Skyring (Pete) now also began to remove sourced statements in the article, that had citations. While he did indicate that the source was a deadlink, he removed the statements rather than tag the deadlink with a {{deadlink}} tag, which would non-disruptively allow other editors to help find a source for the statement in question.
  • A new class of foul: This is in direct violation of WP:DEADLINK which says "Do not delete cited information solely because the URL to the source does not work any longer. WP:Verifiability does not require that all information be supported by a working link, nor does it require the source to be published online."
• User:N2e (me), in an attempt to prevent the article from losing sourced content,
  • undid one of Skyring's deletions with the edit comment "2013-10-13T13:46:22‎ N2e (talk | contribs)‎ . . (18,204 bytes) (+128)‎ . . (Undid revision 576961086 by Skyring (talk); yes, it was sourced. Sourced by a source you removed several edits ago.)" (diff)
  • undid another of Skyring's deletions with the edit comment "2013-10-13T13:47:45‎ N2e (talk | contribs)‎ . . (18,436 bytes) (+232)‎ . . (Undid revision 576960887 by Skyring (talk)undo removal of citation" (diff)
  • undid Skyring's THIRD attempt to say that the Lynx is merely a "concept" and not actually "in development", with the edit comment: "2013-10-13T13:49:18‎ N2e (talk | contribs)‎ . . (18,428 bytes) (-8)‎ . . (Undid revision 576956682 by Skyring (talk); revert, per WP:BRD; this is being discussed on the Talk page, let's see what consensus develops there)" (diff)
• Note: since this edit (nearly 24 hours ago) was my third revert of Skyring Pete's modification of the article to claim the Lynx is merely a concept, and not actually in development, I'm now out of the game as far as cleaning up after him, due to WP:3RR; so I have stayed away, and am not making edits to the article. I am, however, now documenting the entire sorry mess here on the Talk page, to help other helpful editors to be able to come in here and clean up the mess.
• User:Skyring (Pete) came back once again and deleted the cited information. Here are the two edit summaries: "2013-10-13T15:00:08‎ Skyring (talk | contribs)‎ . . (17,872 bytes) (-204)‎ . . (→‎Mark I Prototype: Unsourced)" and "2013-10-13T14:49:24‎ Skyring (talk | contribs)‎ . . (18,076 bytes) (-607)‎ . . (As per talk)" Here is the diff.
• User:Skyring (Pete) nominated the article for deletion. (where the first half dozen (uninvolved) editors to respond have all concluded the article should be a KEEP. One of them has provided a helpful list of something on the order of twenty sources for the claims that the Lynx spaceplane is notable.
• User:Skyring (Pete) is also forum shopping: after failing to give a chance to develop a consensus for a few days on the article Talk page, Skyring initiated both a discussion on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and then nearly immediately on the AfD "forum" itself. Once again, on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, every (uninvolved) editor who commented has suggested that sources based on press releases in the trade press are fine as sources, if the source (newspaper, business journal, etc.) are considered reliable sources themselves.

So with User:Skyring (Pete) having received no shred of support for his disruptive actions from other editors, either on this article Talk page, nor in the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, nor on the AfD nomination after almost a full day has passed, the article content at present is goofed up.

Moreover, the article editing process has been thoroughly disrupted.

• The article has had some sourced material removed because the citations were deadlinks, outside of Misplaced Pages recommended process, and despite some of those sources linking to US government servers that may be down due to the current partial government shutdown.
• There are also no tags on those (now missing) deadlinks offering other editors the (polite) notice to try to find sources.
• And the article says the Lynx is a "concept" rather than an actual spaceplane "in development", which is factually incorrect. (and Skyring has been told this by over a half dozen people now).

Best course of action: Skyring/Pete should clean his mess up.

Second best course of action: some other uninvolved editor should come in here and clean it up, picking up after Pete, because I've already reverted Skying Pete three times in edits with explicitly good faith edit summaries, and am thus unable to continue trying to clean up his edits.

I do not intend to take Skyring/Pete to ANI based on his disruptive behavior to this point. But I did want to leave a careful record of the mess, above, to enable other editors to see what has been going on, and get involved to help clean up the mess from the disruptive editing. N2e (talk) 13:39, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

• Unassessed Rocketry articles
• Unknown-importance Rocketry articles
• WikiProject Rocketry articles
• Start-Class spaceflight articles
• Mid-importance spaceflight articles
• WikiProject Spaceflight articles