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What the hell guys?? I added few links that supported the HEF position in External Links and they have been duley removed??
I understand that the article was only a quick writeup, so this may be the reason the article is not balanced, it basically only gives the "Witzel" pov. The proposed changes seem to be online anyhow, so maybe the article should focus on them. It reads overall like a black/white characterization of the debate.
Then there are unreferenced remarks in the article like this: insisting ... on points such as that caste was not a part of Vedic religion But the proposed changes do not seem to imply this:
- Page 181, Main Idea: current text, The social structure known as the caste system was an important characteristic of Aryan society. Replace with, The social structure known as the Varna system was an important characteristic of the ancient Indian society.
- Page 154, Hinduism and the Caste System, current text, A person with bad karma will be reborn into a lower caste or as a lesser creature, such as a pig or an ant. Replace with, A person with good or bad karma will be born into a higher or lower life form..
The article says "Californians of South Indian origin and Dalits (Harijan, Untouchables) have written to the Board of Education, arguing that the HEF and Vedic Foundation represent a North Indian upper-caste perspective." No reference is given to this, and such a rather absurd statement should be put in perspective. This is remiscent of 19th century divide-and-conquer clichés. A better article title would be maybe "2005/2006 California Textbook Controversy". The issue is also about other minorities and similar changes are proposed for Judaism . There is no reference given that the HEF was "founded by Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh". The article is in categories like California and Historical revisionism. Does it really deserve to be one of 90 topics in the Category:Politics of the United States?
Here are a couple of links to the controversy:
--Machaon 23:02, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
I know; the writeup summarizes the CSM report which was not written by Witzel, you may say it gives the "academic", or "western" pov. But feel free to heap opposing povs on this, I created this article to take the heat of Hindu outrage at Descartes and the Western conspiracy of "Enlightenment" from poor Michael Witzel's article who is apparently being shot as the messenger. dab (ᛏ) 10:16, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- I included the imdiversity.com article, the only one on your list that halfway meets minimal notability standards; I don't know if "India-West" is a notable newspaper, and it wasn't printed there anyway, but it's the first halfway presentable "pro HEF" writeup I've seen so far; the blog rants and petitions are certainly not "sources", they just show that these groups have internet access and are serious about their cause. We need independent reports, such as the CSM one. imdiversity.com is at least not a Hindu forum, but it seems still to be a lobby organization you'd expect to automatically take the side of an ethnic minority, never mind if their cause makes sense or not. Imho, if VF and HEF want to sway public opinion, they should stop trying to smear Witzel as a Nazi and begin writing coherent articles harping on minority rights like the Sundaram one (never mind that the "fair portrayal of history" demanded admittedly flies in the face of scholarly consensus). In politics, playing too dirty will just backfire dab (ᛏ) 10:45, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Sure, the Christian Science Monitor is an "independent" source according to you, who happens to be a Christian if I am not mistaken. Didn't you already list that Christain Dalit organizations are working against the changes suggested by Hindus. And we trust "Christain" Science Monitor as an independent source, wow, what more can one say. Can you apply your own logic you said here "imdiversity.com is at least not a Hindu forum, but it seems still to be a lobby organization you'd expect to automatically take the side of an ethnic minority, never mind if their cause makes sense or not". You are white , so one would, according to your own logic, would always side with Whites(Western), aka Michael Witzel et al? Is this your level of understanding? I thought Misplaced Pages was atleast neutral, but oh boy, I am wrong or what.
Thanks for your changes Dab, the article has improved since yesterday. The following sentence is still somewhat pov: They are "insisting among uncontroversial corrections on points such as that caste was not a part of Vedic religion, and that no Indo-Aryan migration ever took place, statements described as "revisionist" by a group of Indologist and other scholars, among them Michael Witzel, who oppose the effort as an attempt at censorship and have submitted a petition with the Californian Board of Education." But as I showed above, they are in fact not saying this about the caste system, and about the IA-migration, many of their changes seem to be against the "invasion" version or for more neutral text. I haven't read all changes, but I think it might be better to cite some of the controversial changes rather than repeat about them only what others have said. --Machaon 21:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
- fair enough, please do, I'm not planning on writing a dissertation on this, but if you cite the proposals, and the petitioner's take on the proposals, I don't see where you can go wrong. Re categorization, we need some category marking this as a US political issue. If "Politics of the United States" is too general, we'll have to create a subcategory, or some "Education in California" category. dab (ᛏ) 21:44, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
tinyurl
using tinyurl is now blocked by the spam blacklist. This is sensible: It is not safe to link to tinyurl urls, since it is impossible to judge where it will redirect before you click on it, and its owner may change the redirect at any time. Linking to google cache is also not recommendable, since it is bound to expire, but I suppose we can leave the link here until March, when this article will likely be refactored in the light of the decision anyway. dab (ᛏ) 10:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Involment of Dalit Christian missionary groups should be recorded
The Wall Street Journal article mentioned Dalit Freedom Network as the Dalit group invloved. The website at http://www.friendsofsouthasia.org/textbook/LettersOfSupport.html mentions 4 dalit groups:
- Dalit Freedom Network
- National Campaign on Dalit Human Rights
- Dalit Shakti Kendra
- The Dalit Solidarity Forum in the USA
They are all Christian missionary groups. Let their involvement be recorded for fairness and correctness. Please do not delete mentions of these groups. Please permit acknowledgement of the fact that they are Christian missionary organization.
It is unethical to remove this information, unless it is false.--Vikramsingh 21:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
What are the organizations involved?
Surprisingly, many of the organizations invloved are remarkably small organizations, managed by a hanful of people. In some cases they seem to exist largely in name. Links to these organizations have been created. If you know more about these groups, please do add information.
NRI-SAHI is apparently same as The Vaishnava Center for Enlightenment, both consisting mainly of Shrikumar Poddar of East Lansing, Michigan. The last two organizations appear to have been created specifically for the Californian Hindu textbook fight.
- Friends of South Asia (FOSA)
- Coalition against Communalism (CAC)
- NRI-SAHI (Non Resident Indians for a Secular and Harmonious India),
- The Vaishnava Center for Enlightenment
- Indian American Public Education Advisory Council (IPAC)
- The South Asian Faculty Network (The South Asian Faculty Network)
--Vikramsingh 02:23, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
cleanup
I understand that links were piled on in the heat of battle, but now that all is over (for six years, that is), this article needs structure and weeding out of unstable links. Misplaced Pages is not a linkfarm. dab (ᛏ) 18:46, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Are these real organizations?
Are these real organizations? Were they floated by someone just to impress the commission?
- "Some 150 South Asian academicians" "The South Asian Faculty Network": OK who is the head of this organization? When was this constituted? Who are the members? If a "south asian" faculty disagrees with the "head" of this organization, will she face difficulty in publishing and getting tenured?
- "some Californian Dalit Sikh temples": Do they have names and locations?
--Vikramsingh 01:15, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
- As long as we give the source for these statements, we don't have to research the full list ourselves. We'll say "According to USA Today , some 150 academicians", providing the link. The responsibility for the statement then lies with the news source. Of course we should only quote notable news outlets. dab (ᛏ) 07:49, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Correctly identifying the backgrounds of organizations and individuals involved
The whole debate was about representation of facts and views.
There were many organizations and individuals involved. It is essential to know who they are, and what is their background, so that people can see what their perspective was.
A missionary organization should be identified clearly as a "missionary organization". It is unethical to attempt to hide the fact.
The terms "Christian" and "Missionary' are not equivalent.
Some promonent individuals involved have made anti-hindu polemics a significant part of their life's work. They have given lectures, written articles, even written books, from a clear obvious anti-Hindu perspective. One of the persons has been personally involved in organizing functions where conversions took place. You can see detailed accounts and even photographs on the web. It is important for fairness that this fact is clearly identified.
It is unethical to remove information this information from the web page.
--Vikramsingh 17:04, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
- "clear obvious", I am afraid, only from an ultra-right Hindu nationalist perspective. I know (and the article says so) that there are Hindus prepared to face the less comfortable parts of their history (just like any other religion; there are equally fundamentalist crackpot Christians opposed to facing their history, as well as sane Christians ready take the responsibility of critical self-reflection; the very same goes for Hinduism. This is really not pro vs. contra Hindu, but pro vs. contra ahistorical fundamentalism). I daresay many Dalits have converted to Christianity. Does that go towards showing, in your opinion, that their rights in historical Hinduism were "equal but different", or that they were really shat upon by society? Hell, if I had been a Dalit in 1800, I am sure I would have converted to any religion that did not make me clean out my betters' toilets. My point is that it is no coincidence that some organizations debunking the history tweaking involved here are the same people who suffered from the stuff that is being tweaked. dab (ᛏ) 12:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
- "clear obvious", I am afraid, only from an ultra-right Christian fundamentalist, anti-hindu troll like you.
christianity has commited the most vile and sickening atrocities in history, n other religion can come close. Even though they try to demean everyone else, it won't work.
Dalit Freedom Network is not a missionary organization?
Vikram,
The Dalit Freedom Network is not a missionary organization. I know - I am the Washington Coordinator of the DFN. We do not send missionaries nor do we pay missionary salaries. We do not even have the ability to commission missionaries! We are a relief organization - we build schools, lobby for human rights, give microeconomic aide, and bring medical teams to care for the Dalits. Many of us who do the work do have a Christian worldview: this worldview is part of the motivation for our work. We care for the Dalits as individuals. Many of us also have an evangelical Christian mindset, meaning that we share our faith with people we meet regardless of context. Our personal worldviews do not make the organization a Missionary organization any more than Sam Walton's views made Wal-Mart a missionary organization (nor, for that matter, did Ford's view make Ford Motors an anti-semitic organization). If you wish to continue labelling us as a "missionary" organization you will be intentionally misleading people.
--Benjaminmarsh 03:12, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
Benjamin Marsh
Let me see if I understand this.
Dalit Freedom Network is headed by Dr. Joseph D'souza:
- who is the President of the All India Christian Council, one of the largest interdenominational alliances of Christians
- In "Reaching the 'Untouchables" he is thus described: "He knew that in Jesus we are all equal and deserving of proper, humane treatment. Joseph also knew that among extremist Hindus in India, Jesus was enemy no. 1, and Christians were enemy no.2. ...The Christian church wholeheartedly embraced this movement and a major reform is the result. The Dalits are becoming Christians in record numbers and becoming free from the cycles of poverty and abuse... People are walking hundreds of kilometers to have an audience with King Jesus. ... Joseph’s All India Christian Council with offices in London, Hyderabad, and Denver, Colo."
- In "Christians Worldwide Pray for the "Untouchables" of India", it says:
"Christians across India and around the world banded together in prayer. Partnering with the All India Christian Council, Operation Mobilization India and other ministries accepted the Dalits' invitation by offering primary schools for Dalit children. Already, as a result of careful research, compassionate action, and dedicated prayer, these schools have made an impact, bringing high caste and Dalit people together in communities previously splintered by strict segregation. Additionally, pastors and Christian workers began receiving into their folds Dalits who were interested in following Christ."
And you say "Dalit Freedom Network" is not a missionary organization?
--Cardreader 04:52, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
You are correct, for the most part.. A couple of points. 1. AICC and DFN are not the same thing - the article you quoted under your second * is incorrect - we are not a branch of AICC. We partner with AICC. Denver, CO does not have an AICC branch. 2. I think the article you have hear clearly delineates between the different organizations active here. The DFN builds schools that bring 'high caste and DAlit people together in communities previously splintered by strict segregation." Notice that "pastors and Christian workers," which are not the DFN, "began receiving into their folds Dalits who were interested in following Christ."
We build schools and do a lot of other human rights work. Any interest in Christianity that results goes to local pastors and other organizations. We do not have a denomination nor can we authorize pastors and missionaries. When we bring medical teams, our bags are devoid of any religious articles - we bring needles, medicine, gauze pads, etc. You will not find tracts in our materials. When I work on behalf of the Dalits in Washington, DC, I do not press for grants to Pastors or churches to bring Bibles or build churches. I do not network with denominations to strategically place schools in cooperation with missionaries or national american missionary-sending bodies. I work on sexual trafficking, economic repression, educational disenfranchisement, and other ongoing challenges facing Dalits and OBCs.
Most of us are Christian and carry and evangelical worldview into our work. So do millions of American businessmen, educators, politicians, and other professionals. The DFN is not a missionary organizations any more than Chick-fil-a, wal-mart, or any other of the hundreds of thousands of businesses led by prominent evangelical Christians.
You should note carefully the spiritual democracy advocated by men like D'Souza, Raj, and Dr. Ilaiah. Were the DFN a missionary organization, we could not in good concience stand with Muslims, Sikhs, and secular Dalit and OBC leaders in pursuing an agenda of care for the Dalits: these would be our competitors.
Why fight the DFN on such a surface level? Why not ask the state governments who have given educational awards to some Dalit students? Why not ask Dalit educational leaders their reasons for inviting the DFN to build schools for their children? Why don't you fight for equal rights for Dalits and thereby eliminate the necessity of our work? These seem to be better uses of your time than trying to misrepresent our work.
--Benjaminmarsh 18:41, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Would you say that Mother Teresa was not a missionary?
--Cardreader 05:44, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the complement, but DFN and Mother Teresa are not equivalent - we could only hope to have the kind of worldwide impact that she has had. I would call her a "Missionary of Compassion" as did Time magazine, meaning it was her calling to spread love and care to those she was compelled to reach. She was not a missionary in the modern sense, meaning someone who is called to evangelism in general and to foreign church planting specifically. She was a woman of mercy. We are attempting to be an organization of mercy.
I find it odd that the Indian right are so quick to claim that those who are advancing holistic ministries in India are motivated by the desire for conversion. Could it be that Muslims and Christians, unlike Hindus, have started taking care of the least of India instead of continuing to oppress them economically and physically? Could the tide of conversion be not the result of secret evangelism but instead be the result of good Christian people working hard to uplift their Indian brothers and sisters, thereby reflecting their Christian nature and naturally attracting interest in their beliefs?
You never answered my questions above - they were not rhetorical. If more like you spent their times protecting and helping the least of their society, there would be no need for a Dalit Freedom Network.
--Benjaminmarsh 12:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
cardreader,
please stop editing the information about my organization without resolving the issue in the talk page.
--Benjaminmarsh 13:36, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Benjamin:
You write:
"The DFN is not a missionary organizations any more than Chick-fil-a, wal-mart, ..."
Orgnizations like Chick-fil-a, wal-mart organization are there to make money. They are businesses. They pay taxes.
DFN is not comparable with Chick-fil-a, wal-mart.
Mother Teresa never hesitated in calling herself a missionary. If you are a missionary, you should acknowledge it proudly (unelss you are doing something wrong).
--Vikramsingh 18:05, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Benjamin:
Let us look at http://www.dalitchild.com/php/faqslist.php, official website of Dalit Freedom Network. Some quotes from that site:
- Created in 2002 in the United States, the Dalit Freedom Network’s (DFN) mission is to partner with the All India Christian Council to empower Dalits in their quest for social freedom and human dignity by networking human, financial and information resources.
- DFN works in partnership with the All India Christian Council (AICC), Operation Mobilization India (OM India), and Dalit leadership in India. The AICC is a coalition of over 2,000 independent and mainline denominations, Christian organizations, and federations from across India.
- Christians expect this English education based in a Christian worldview to bring a deep and durable life change the Dalits have never before experienced. The DFN and the AICC are capable to implement this massive project among the Dalits because they rely upon the experience and expertise of Operation Mobilization (OM) India to coordinate the Dalit Education Centers on a national level. Formed more than 40 years ago, OM India is a movement of Indian Christians dedicated to bringing the Good News of Jesus Christ to the people of India in word and in deed.
- Where does that money go?
- Over 80% of your dollars goes to help provide high quality English-medium education with a Christian worldview.
Not a missionary organization?
--Cardreader 21:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Correct - not a missionary organization. A missionary organization is an organization that sends missionaries. We do not do that. We build schools, develop economic relief programs, lobby for human rights, and bring medical teams. The chief characteristic of any missionary organization is an orientation toward church planting. We don't do that either.
If you want to identify our links or partnerships with Christian missionary organizations, then by all means please do. But be sure to include our links with Muslims and secular organizations as well. While you are at it, can you please identify the connections made by the Hindu organizations? I find it funny that you have researched our publicly available financial statements and open partnerships but yet not those of the Hindu organizations listed under this article. Where does there money come from? Where does it go? In all fairness, it seems like you guys could post the annual budgets of the Hindu Education Foundation and Hindu American Foundation and indicate where all the money goes and comes from.
While you are talking about the schools, why don't you post on the lack of proper national education for low-caste people? Do you know that every single school we have built has been requested by the secular leaders of the villages we work in? We are asked to bring English education to allow Dalit children to compete with upper-caste children who have been denied parity quite some time. When we build our schools, from where should we draw our values, our "worldview," but from Christianity? Certainly the dominant worldview in their local villages won't suffice - that worldivew teaches them that they are second or third class citizens who should be content with their lives as poor farmers, bonded laborers, sweepers, and cobblers. Our "Christian worlview" teaches Dalits that they are born equal to all mankind and have the full rights of man. We teach self-worth and personal value. It is a foreign concept to many, for sure, but hopefully it will be the seed that will allow these downtrodden people to find a better place in their society.
And again, you did not answer my previous question. Why are you wasting your time splitting hairs on this? More importantly, why are you in such a rush to label us a missionary organization? What follows after this labelling? Would you call for police intervention against DFN activities on the grounds of allurement or "forced" conversions? Stop wasting our time and start caring about the poverty that defines existence for most of India. Like I said before, if good people like you would spend your time caring for outcastes we would not even have to be working in India.
--Benjaminmarsh 19:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
"Our "Christian worlview" teaches Dalits that they are born equal to all mankind and have the full rights of man. We teach self-worth and personal value. It is a foreign concept to many, for sure, but hopefully it will be the seed that will allow these downtrodden people to find a better place in their society."
Please, you are full of sh*t! Your christian worldview my ass! Is that the same christian worldview that incouraged slavery, the inquisition, forced conversion, holocaust, pedophilia(catholic church), and countless other atrocities. Get off your pedistal, idiot! Christianity has by far commited the most sickening atrocites known to men. And giving a way money, schools and medical treatment isn't going to make up for it. You peaces of sh!t should be thrown out of India, and eventually you will!
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.99.19.167 (talk • contribs) 28 June, 2006 (UTC)
- The DFN seem like bible thumpers to me. What's wrong with being a missionary?--Dangerous-Boy 07:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Dangerous-Boy,
in most countries there is nothing wrong with being a missionary. In India, being a missionary means that any human rights, development, or medical care work is labeled as "allurement" for conversion and in some states can face police, communal, or state persecution.
--Benjaminmarsh 14:34, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sure they also try to spread good wholesome xtian moral values with that. Even Mother Theresa was out there to convert poor heathen souls. Don't lie about what you do. You spread Christ and the best way is to convert the poor. Also, Misplaced Pages is not here for you to spread your organization. --Dangerous-Boy 21:53, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
There is no lie here - examine our activities - we do exactly what we say we do. Conversion et al is left to the locals. Who is spreading what organization? I did not create the post on DFN. I did not create this post. Were it up to me none of this would exist. This is foolishness.--Benjaminmarsh 13:46, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think Cardreader explained it pretty clearly. You're a faith based charity at least.--Dangerous-Boy 04:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- It is pretty clear from above talk DFN is an independant organisation who joins hand with other like minded organisation---Does not matter if they belong to Christian faith---only criteria they seek is upliftment of poor and needy.Of course Christianity as a philosophy and religion scores over hinduism.While it is possible to take inspiration from Christianity for such kind of activities--irrespective of one's own religious affiliation---same is not true with hinduism which advocates persecution and supression of the subjects in question.Holy---+---Warrior 11:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)