Talk:Josef Mengele - Misplaced Pages

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Review: March 15, 2014. (Reviewed version).

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Names and dates wrong

His second name wasn' t Rudolf, that was a myth created by the internet. The is no serious source that contains that information, in the Posner book is not mentioned that his second name was Rudolf or that he had any second name at all. In his SS record it' s not mentioned or listed, he never signed as Rudolf either so it' s just a myth. Some people will also say that his second name was Wilhelm because his grandfather was called like that, that' s another myth, actually, none of his close ascendants were called Wilhelm, nor Rudolf. Here is his family tree if anyone is interested:

Josephus Xavierus Mengele (1788-???) married ????? son: Alois Mengele (1843-1917) married Theresia Maier (or Mayr) (1846-1918) Son: Karl Mengele

Joseph Hupfauer (????- 1914) married Theresia Bux (1850-1897) Daughter: Walburga Theresia Hupfauer

Karl Mengele (1884-1959) (some say 1881) married Walburga Hupfauer (1880-1946) (some say 1890) Sons: Josef Mengele (1911-1979) - Karl Thaddeus Mengele (1912-1949) - Alois Mengele (1914-1974)

Also, his son Rolf wasn' t born in 1941, he was born in 1944, I fixed that.

Add the Angle of Death to the aushwitz section.

--Beppo911 (talk) 13:24, 23 October 2012 (UTC)

My contribution was reverted due to "Odd date changes"??? PLEASE, it' s common knowledge that Rolf Mengele was born in 1944, it' s in every book imaginable and he even mentions it himself! --Beppo911 (talk) 01:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Your edits are unsourced, and keep breaking links to (for example) audio files. Please review WP:V and WP:RS, and bring reliable sources for your claims. Jayjg 01:19, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

A source would be much more appropriate to prove the existence of that middle name. I have never seen any evidence for that; even in official documents, nothing like that can be found. Therefore, this piece of information is most probably wrong and should be put out of the article —- at least until a suitable source is given.

Tubifex (talk) 11:43, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Tubifex is correct. Sources are needed for inclusion, not for exclusion. I looked at three biographies of Mengele without finding "Rudolf". I could only find it in a few recent tertiary sources that were probably influenced by Misplaced Pages. It is not mentioned in his 200 page OSI file. Until a solid source for this information is produced, "Rudolf" is gone. Zero 03:31, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

This Justice Department file on Mengele reproduces a large number of documents, none of which show a middle name. Zero 04:12, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Why Ask for Editing, if Editing is Not Allowed?

A Wiki notice at the head of the article states, "This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations."

However, the article appears to be locked, so no "improvement", "verification", or "addition of citations" is possible.

Who is the final arbiter of such things? Is there one "senior editor" running Misplaced Pages, whose opinion trumps all others? And isn't that contrary to the stated philosophy of Wiki? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 21:40, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Please sign your comments using four tildes, like this: ~~~~. If you want to edit the article while it is protected beyond your editing authority, the correct procedure is to write here what edit you want to make and why you want to make it. Someone with more authority will make the edit for you if they consider it will improve the article. There is a formal method, see Misplaced Pages:Edit requests. Zero 03:14, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

In culture section

I believe Josef Mengele had enough influence on popular culture to merit a section dedicated to it, there are more than enough books and movies about him.

So I think we should re-add the section.Farzam1370 (talk) 06:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Problem with 'In Popular Culture' sections is that they turn into slews of random sci-fi novels, films, rock songs, etc., which happen to mention the subject of the article. Where someone/something has become an icon or by-word then an 'In Culture' section is appropriate, but they always have to be watched and pruned vigorously.

In short, I think they do more harm than good, and I wouldn't like to see one added to this article. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 09:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Sudtirol versus Genoa

The english page about Josef Mengele states that Mengele fled to Genoa in 1949 where he obtained a passport from the Red Cross International Organization, but this is not true: Mengele fled to the little village of Termeno, in Sudtirol, where the local authorities issued a false passport (they did the same for Adolf Eichmann and other Nazi criminals) with which he went to Genoa to board the ship to South America. It was not Italy that helped him, but some people from Sudtirol, who felt very close to the German culture and the Nazi movement79.18.245.190 (talk) 21:59, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Levy page 263 says he got his Red Cross passport at the Swiss consulate in Genoa. Posner and Ware says the same thing on page 90. Diannaa (talk) 22:46, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

According to Steinacher "Nazis on the Run" Oxford 2011, Mengele was issued a passport in the name of Helmut Gregor on the basis of an ID card from Tramin (Tremino) by the ICRC in Genoa. Might be worth mentioning in more detail though. ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 07:01, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

It's too much detail, in my opinion. -- Diannaa (talk) 19:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Josef Mengele/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Secret (talk · contribs) 00:28, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing this within the next few days. Thanks Secret 00:28, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Secret! Thank you very much for taking this on. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:49, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

There is an organization(club) of surviving twins from the Mengle studies. I beleive about 400 members, at least until recently. The inclusion of their group and maybe input in the article would be interesting. 159.105.80.101 (talk) 15:56, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I heard of this too, but I can't seem to find a source. -- Diannaa (talk) 23:18, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I thought this review would be heavily time consuming when I took it, but personal life got in the way and sorry it took three weeks to finally reviewing it. Once I read through the article, I was surprised. The article is in pretty good shape overall with no major flaws preventing it from GA status. The citations is reliable, I had a copy of Gerald Posner's Mengele book and he is reliable as a historian, but it seems to be in my old home so I no longer have a copy. No close paraphrasing concerns with the online sourcing. I'll be quick passing this article for GA as I don't have much concerns with the prose. What I thought it would be a long and difficult process ended up as a quick pass. I apologize for the wait. If you decide to do a peer review, I could probably review the content further as I will have access to some of the books. Thanks Secret 18:19, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much Secret for reviewing the article. Best, -- Diannaa (talk) 18:33, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

"After Auschwitz" section incorrect, lacks basic information, & badly written

It is claimed here that Mengele was assisted in 1949 by Hans-Ulrich Rudel; according to the wp article, Rudel had left Europe in 1948. One of these articles is therefore wrong and should be corrected ASAP. Also, "Worried that his capture would mean a trial and death sentence" is a strangely (humorously?) worded (and entirely unnecessary) phrase. And, in Genoa, "he obtained a passport... from the... Red Cross" - this statement conveys no information, since it applies to all escaping Nazis (more or less, I believe). The question of who actually assisted him is, strangely, not addressed here. Generally the most notorious Nazis (eg. Eichmann) were protected by the Catholic Church; can anyone confirm if this was the case for Mengele, or is it, perhaps, unknown how he escaped? Surely, a "Good Article" should contain such basic information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Signedzzz (talk • contribs) 05:59, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. The information in Hans-Ulrich Rudel about Rudel leaving Europe in 1948 is unsourced and besides, Rudel would not have to be present in Europe to offer assistance. Since the names of additional individuals who assisted Menegele are not mentioned in the sources, it's not possible to add them here. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:01, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Was Rudel actually a member of the SS? How did he "assist", who were the others, and what role did they supposedly play? The article seems to be completely vague on the subject.Signedzzz (talk) 16:53, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

The Rudel article states that he met Mengele in South America, ie after Mengele had already escaped - and it is sourced.Signedzzz (talk) 17:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I have checked Levy page 265-266, the source for this bit, and it says that Rudel moved to South America after the war. His status as a top fighter pilot led to a position in the National Institute of Aeronautics in Argentina. He earned the trust and friendship of dictator Juan Perón. He met Mengele in Venezuela. (Levy, page 265) Rudel served as manufacturers' representative for Karl Mengele & Sons and other German manufacturing firms. He made frequent trips back to Germany in this capacity (page 266). There is nothing on these two pages that says Rudel helped Mengele get out of Europe. So I have taken that out. Rudel did help Mengele relocate into Brazil in 1960 (page 273). Thank you for spotting this mistake. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I am concerned that you say that this section is based entirely on one book, written by a general author as opposed to a historian (see Alan Levy); and the book in question isn't even about the subject of this article. It would be preferable to state in the article that nothing at all is known about Mengele's escape; if any info from this particular book is used, it should be clearly explained what the author claims to base his opinion on. Any reader of this article might expect that the information is factual and verifiable - bearing in mind that it claims to be a Good Article - which is hardly the case when it is based on only one book, written by a non-expert, about a different subject. Signedzzz (talk) 08:43, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The section "After Auschwitz" is based on multiple books, not just one book. See footnotes 57 to 66. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:43, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes. But some statements in the section only cite this one book by Levy, who is, as I mention above, not a historian, and therefore not particularly reliable - or, at least, not appropriate for wp.Signedzzz (talk) 16:51, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

However, I may be just splitting hairs at this point. Signedzzz (talk) 17:26, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems, though, that the second half of the article, from "After Auschwitz" onwards, relies almost entirely on this particular book, written by a non-historian, and one other - about half each. These sections of the article have little credibility as a result. Signedzzz (talk) 18:32, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

And as I mentioned, I do not see why the 4 years between the end of the war and his eventual escape from Europe merits only one short paragraph, while his time in S. America, where he did nothing of any significance, is described at such great length. Signedzzz (talk) 19:46, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Same story two versions

This article states "The children died of gangrene after several days of suffering", the article The Holocaust has under the https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Holocaust#Medical_experiments section a different version, another experiment or one version is wrong? prokaryotes (talk) 03:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

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