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Genetic studies

Just a head's up, I posted a request for assistance at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Genetics#Ashkenazi Jews for help determining how much weight to give the variety of genetic studies included, hopefully with the result that this section is reduced in size but, at the same time, reflect whatever scientific consensus exists at this time. I'm not sure of the response this request will receive but I think this article could use the expertise from some editors who have more knowledge and experience editing in this area. Liz 13:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Andrew Lancaster would certainly be useful in this regard, if he could manage to spare the time, a big if.Nishidani (talk) 13:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I realize that it's asking a lot for editors working on science articles to involve themselves here but it's exactly their perspective that could improve this article immensely. There is a great deal of questioning right now about the validity of DNA tests that concern ethnicity and I hope the subject would interest some editors. And I figured, nothing ventured, nothing gained! Liz 15:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, this article would only benefit from editors who actually have experience on the subject of genetics who would be able to make some order from the mess and bias that found it's way into this article via biased inexperienced editors, I hope those experienced editors would agree to help, that's their choice, but I'm sure their work would be only beneficial and greatly appreciated. Guy355 (talk) 17:38, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll lend my voice to this plea for experienced editors to involve themselves, even though it is a big ask. From my experience of articles dealing with ethnicities, DNA research has been ruled out by consensus for lack of scientific comprehension and POV push reasons. As we've all noted, it's too new a science for lay people to try to interpret, and findings are changing at a rate impossible to stay on top of. There are enough articles in Misplaced Pages with time sensitive information that are terribly dated. Appending such a dimension to an article which should be dealing with culture, history and contemporary issues has already served to distract from expanding the primary areas of interest for readers for long enough. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The link at Reference 101 is dead. If it's intended to be to the article mentioned in 100, http://nymag.com/news/features/ashkenazi-jews-2011-11/ works. Mcljlm (talk) 08:17, 14 June 2014 (UTC) 14 June 2014


I'd love to know about these ethnic group articles without genetics sections. Almost all the ones I've seen do. The only ones I've seen that don't are Tamils and Ukrainians. Khazar (talk) 17:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm talking about Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians specifically, Khazar. The only information about the Rus' is 'proving' that the Ruriks were 'Swedish'... er, I mean Norse/Nordic, so that page is patrolled by a particular interest group. There's only generic information about the predominant haplogroup extending across the regions (including Poland). It's not worth the grief because there has been anti-semitic nincompoopery from fanatics finding spurious 'proof' that Ukrainians are essentially Khazars (to which the answer is 'big deal', no doubt there's a lot of Jewish blood in the population considering that intermarriage/interbreeding has been going on for a couple of thousand years). If any DNA info is springing up anywhere about Russians (er, Slavs), you can be certain it's focussing on the predominant haplogroup and avoiding admixtures. Speaking of which, have you read the Rus' Khaganate article? I'm anticipating an article proving that Atlantis existed and was inhabited by the Norse. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:50, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Good mentions. I'm well aware of the unfortunate twist of events that caused the Rus Khaganate to lose its FA status. As for this article a paragraph per sub-section of genetics should be the best option. One for Y-DNA, one for mtDNA, and one for aDNA. The Khazar theory and Medical Genetics are in much better shape. Khazar (talk) 18:45, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
You need to look at some more ethnic group articles then.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:39, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
Already did. The overwhelming majority mention Y-DNA and mtDNA chromosomes. You should keep your uneducated comments to yourself. Khazar (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I very strongly doubt that. The majority of European ethnic groups perhaps. But not the majority of all ethnic group articles by a very large margin - simply because the vast majority of ethnic groups of the world have not have any thorough genetic research done one them. Regarding uneducated comments I dont think I am likely to be well served by taking advice form you.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

True, every year a new study turns up that contradicts or confirms several previous studies, this science is still in it's infancy and shouldn't be taken as fact. Guy355 (talk) 10:32, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Which is (only) one of the reasons I feel strongly any genetics section should only highlight the major and less controversial conclusions of genetics research. Debresser (talk) 12:24, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that the results of the genetics testing don't actually contradict themselves but rather, the conclusions of the authors do. Both Baher and Costa found a major finding lineage among Ashkenazi Jews. The former placed this origin in the Levant while the latter placed it in Europe. Khazar (talk) 17:41, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I think that probably the recent literature on Ashkenazim have had sufficient focus on genetic studies that those studies need to be represented in the article. Currently however it seems that it is very heavily overrepresented. I would suggest cutting the section down to a single section with a "main" link to the two articles on medical genetics of Jews and Genetic studies on Jews. PArticularly the section on the Khazar fringe theory is given undue weight and by sectioning the criticism out in a subsection it is also not in line with how WP:FRINGE suggests fringe theories should be represented - namely from the mainstream view.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:47, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree with you on both counts: there is too much detail about genetics studies, and Khazar theories are given undue weight. Debresser (talk) 01:51, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I think there is consensus on this (re Khazars, I took most of the material accumulated out, and created or rewrote pages where anyone interested can consult. It is not quite fringe, borderline, because it had considerable support within Israeli and Jewish scholarly circles at one time). I'll cut it back further, but perhaps, if he can find the time, we should delegate Maunus to do the general edit he suggests, esp. since he is above this particular fray?Nishidani (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I notice you did some pruning, Nishidani. But I agree that some editor uninvolved in this topic should go over that section (heck, maybe the entire article) and make sure it is readable and user-friendly. When I started this section on genetic studies, I naively didn't know that this had been such a subject of contention in the past. If I'd taken the time to go into the talk page archive, I'd have seen the conflict that has already occurred around genetics. Of course, maybe this dispute most needs is a set of new eyes! Liz 21:13, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Just for the record. I took out much of the Khazar stuff because I did most of the work on that section and the articles growing out of it. I've read all of the genetics papers, but am not sufficiently familiar with the discipline, except to recognize the inappropriate uses to which its highly provisional results have been put, and the inadequacy of the reportage that dies on its feet as each research bulletin is published. Analogically, it looks like a the so-called clutter of junk in the genone, with the difference that this junk has reproductive powers that kill off or crowd out the parts that represent the function parts of an evolving tale. There quite a lot of poor material (on this very rich subject) that could be removed without loss. The problem is, do that, and, given the neglect of Ashkenazi history and the extraordinary fruits of the sons and granddaughters of the haskalah, you find almost nothing. That is the dreadful thing about POV fixations: they don't write to the subject, they obsess about one or two details in the lead, and overblow trivia. Let's hope some editors can come in and clean up.Nishidani (talk) 21:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Spent some time reading up on the controversy of this particular article, how fights over it have lead to several editors socking or ending up at ARE, getting blocked or just leaving the entire project. I realize that was about 5 years history compressed into one afternoon but it does make me marvel that your edits have gone uncontested for a few hours. I think temporary protection from IP editing has helped. Liz 22:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I've checked in again and the changes are still holding up! It certainly seems to indicate that, without unnecessary antagonism, contributors are fairly much on the same page (metaphorically and literally) as to what the priorities for creating a good and edifying article are. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Changing "Ethnic groups in Europe" to Europe, or possibly putting them both in there?

I suggest that in the related ethnic groups section we replace in the "Other Europeans" which links to "ethnic groups in Europe" simply to "Europe" just like the "other Levantines" simply links to "the Levant", is it perhaps possible to include both "Europe" and "ethnic groups in Europe"? If there's any opposition please reply to this section, I know that such subjects are like explosive barrels and that specifically in this article one needs a consensus on just about everything. :-P If there will be no opposition until Sunday then I guess it'll be fine? Guy355 (talk) 10:16, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that would be an improvement. Rather the other way around: if there were an article ethnic groups in the Levant, we should have linked there instead of to "the Levant". Debresser (talk) 13:09, 30 May 2014 (UTC)


There's no Ethnic groups in the Levant? That's a shame. Well okay, I won't touch it. Guy355 (talk) 13:31, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Who is the "genius" who put instead of Mikhail Botvinnik? Richard Feynman instead of Anne Frank?

Mikhail Botvinnik is a chess champion and needs to be in the collage to represent Jews in Chess. John von Neumann was proposed in the past and for a good reason there was a lot of opposition to him.

Someone also put Richard Feynman instead of Anne Frank. Fist of all, damaging the balance between men and women. Also... don't we have enough exact science people in the collage??

Looking through the talk page, I can see whoever did those changes didn't actually discuss them first. I will leave this message here for two days to see responses, and will revert it back to the original tomorrow. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 14:25, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

First of all "genious", it's spelt GENIUS. Secondly, Anne Frank's picture was removed due to copyright violations so I added Richard Feynman to fill the gap and complete the collage. Lastly, Richard Feynman is a genius and was ranked as the 7th greatest physicist of all time by the journal Physics World. Khazar (talk) 21:28, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I can see you really have an issue understanding you can't decide on your own who to put people in collages without a discussion, so that is getting reverted. Feynman is a genius, no doubt, and was ranked high... but what does he add to the collage? We already have people representing exact sciences, so what is the point in another one? Again, before you get involved with collages you have to understand the logic behind them and principles like "representation" etc. There are free pictures of Anne Frank here with no copyright issues, do you want to revert it back yourself to the original and start a discussion? Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 23:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
You're the one who wants to see him gone. It's your responsibility to convince the other editors that he is redundant because you're the one who supports the change. I just wanted to address the faulty point of him not being a notable Ashkenazi Jew. As for me not "understanding issues", understand this: his addition to the collage was left unobjected for more than 2.5 months when I added him on May 1. It's amazing what sock puppets can do. I don't have a problem with getting rid of Feynman. However, I have a problem when clueless anti-intellectuals attack his intelligence and notability. Present good points or don't present them at all. Khazar (talk) 00:42, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Richard Feynman

Why is he included? he specifically said he did not want to be included in racial lists.

"He routinely refused to be included in lists or books that classified people by race. He asked to not be included in Tina Levitan's The Laureates: Jewish Winners of the Nobel Prize, writing, "To select, for approbation the peculiar elements that come from some supposedly Jewish heredity is to open the door to all kinds of nonsense on racial theory" and adding "...at thirteen I was not only converted to other religious views, but I also stopped believing that the Jewish people are in any way 'the chosen people'""

https://en.wikipedia.org/Richard_Feynman#Education — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bumblebritches57 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

And do we have to care about his wishes? Debresser (talk) 16:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, we do.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 16:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Please bring some proof from Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines that this is so. Debresser (talk) 17:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Mikhail Botvinnik is a chess champion and needs to be in the collage to represent Jews in Chess. John von Neumann was proposed in the past and for a good reason there was a lot of opposition to him.

Someone also put Richard Feynman instead of Anne Frank. Fist of all, damaging the balance between men and women. Also... don't we have enough exact science people in the collage??

Looking through the talk page, I can see whoever did those changes didn't actually discuss them first. I will leave this message here for two days to see responses, and will revert it back to the original tomorrow. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 14:25, 17 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.124.27.175 (talk)

You mean "will revert it back to the original tomorrow" if there is consensus to do so. Debresser (talk) 17:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I can't think of any compelling reason to include them - is there really one? If not, then we should remove him. He's made his wishes very clear and I think to include him would be a BLP violation. Dougweller (talk) 19:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I do agree that others might be more notable, especially Anne Frank comes to mind. I do know that religion is a problem according to WP:EGRS, but ethnicity is not, per that same guideline, and if his ethnicity is sourced, we can have him. Although I agree that it might be nicer to respect his wishes. Debresser (talk) 19:29, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't have opinion about this issue but BLP is not an issue here as he already dead.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 19:30, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Wow. A sock puppet can cause this much havoc? Unless there are policies by Misplaced Pages that demand the enforcement of people's wishes, then removing him is irrational. After all, he is one of the greatest physicists who ever lived. Khazar (talk) 21:21, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
BEing a great physicist does not make anyone an ashkenazi jew I am afraid.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 22:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Your point? He's Ashkenazi Jewish. That's an undisputable fact and failing to recognize that violates WP:FRINGE. Misplaced Pages has no policy that enforces people's wishes to be identified (or not identified) with a certain ethnic group. Why don't you bring Misplaced Pages's policies into your arguments rather than your false beliefs? There are at least two good reasons to remove Richard Feynman and you haven't even mentioned them. Instead, you believe the his wishes should be respected. Khazar (talk) 00:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Was there a consensus to change it in the first place or did someone just decide it on their own? Exactly, so I will revert it back, and if the discussion says to keep the new version THEN we will. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 23:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Where's the controversy in adding him? It's not a crime to be WP:BOLD and when the sock puppets like you get banned, the whole thing will blow over. As for your proposition, a consensus must be established before the edit, not vice versa. Khazar (talk) 00:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Picture of Jews who convert to Christianity

Why the pictures of Gustav Mahler and John von Neumann and Lise Meitner? all of these figures convert to Christianity and according to the halacka and Jewsih laws when a Jew convert to anthoer religion he is not Jew any more, Gustav Mahler and John von Neumann and Lise Meitner they are not any more Jew. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.220.138.140 (talk) 17:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Quite the contrary, according to Jewish law, a person with a Jewish mother will always be Jewish, even if he becomes the pope. Guy355 (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

This is actually a complex issue in Halakha, and not that simple. Debresser (talk) 18:06, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, pardon me, I was wrong, I suppose such a subject would never be a simple issue. Guy355 (talk) 19:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

If Judaism is a religion, then someone who doesn't believe in the religion should be no longer Jewish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.220.138.140 (talk) 17:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

True, but Jews are also an ethnicity, they're an ethnoreligious group, and Ashkenazi Jews are a Jewish ethnic division. Just like the Druze are a religion and an ethnicity (the difference is that while Judaism is open for people who truly wish to become Jewish and convert, the Druze religion is completely exclusive to those born into it, but, you get my point.) Guy355 (talk) 18:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Precisely. :) Debresser (talk) 18:07, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Yep, it should therefore depend on whether the people continued to identify as Jews after converting to christianity.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 18:20, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes my point sound Christianity also a religion of some Ashkenazi Jews. so it's possible to add here {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians??

  • Then we should also add Christianity in the part of religion: (Religion: Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians) During the history many Ashkenazi Jews convert to Christianity we have here Example of Three notable "jews" figures as Gustav Mahler and John von Neumann and Lise Meitner.

Also Heinrich Heine and Karl Marx. Guy355 (talk) 19:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


I reckon it would be accurate, if there's a consensus then go ahead, although I think you should wait for at least 24 hours to see if anyone opposes that. Guy355 (talk) 19:18, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Good there are sub Jewish-Christian groupes as Hebrew Catholics and Messianic Judaism, many figures that mentioned in the articale are Jewish who convert to Christianity, there are many sources supporting my cliams, in United States where many Jewish (most of them Ashkenazi Jews) marry Christians there is not small Groupe of Christian Jeiwsh and according to Pew Study there are 1,600,000 Christian from Jewish background live in the united states How many Jews are there in the United States?.so if no one opposes that i can add Christian in the religion line rigth? the only problem it's i can add anything in the articale since it's protected! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.220.138.140 (talk) 19:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

The article is about Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, for the article about Jews by the religious law go to the article on Who is a Jew. Converted to Christianity or no is irrelevant to your ethnicity and your origins, so even if Mahler converted he is still an Ashkenazi Jew by ethnicity. By the way, by the Jewish law conversions out of Judaism don't mean anything. Also, those conversions can't really be taken seriously. Many who converted were simply atheists (not true Christians) who simply didn't want anti-Semitism to block their way in society. Mr. Sort It Out (talk) 23:37, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes the article of Ashkenazi Jews here as an ethnic group, not as only religious group, so if Gustav Mahler and John von Neumann and Lise Meitner and Heinrich Heine pictures will stay in the article, bseide Judaism some Jews (not a rare or small number) convert to Christianity, some of them who simply didn't want anti-Semitism to block their way in society and some of them convert becouse they are simply found them self in Christianity as Edith Stein and Simone Weill, in USA alone there are are 1,600,000 Christian from Jewish background How many Jews are there in the United States?.

My point if you want to consider Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, then you should add in Religion Christianity too, Becouse some we added here pictures of at least 4 Jewish who convert to Christianity, If we consdier Ashkenazi Jews as a religious group, Then you should remove Gustav Mahler and John von Neumann and Lise Meitner and Heinrich Heine, they convert to Christianity and they didn't practced Judaism anymore. But Ashkenazi Jews are both rigth? If we added some secular, irreligious, What the problem to add christians? Christians Ashkenazi Jews they are not small group. Many of the notable Ashkenazi Jews were Christians as Max Born, Fritz Haber, Gerty Cori, George de Hevesy, Dennis Gabor, Leopold Kronecker, Felix Mendelssohn, Gustav Mahler, John von Neumann, Lise Meitner, Heinrich Heine, Bob Dylan, Israel Zolli, Harry Frederick Oppenheimer, Jean-Marie Lustiger and others so we are not talk about small and not visible group, These figures consider important and respocted among Jewish. Besides there are two movements of Jews (mostly Ashkenazi Jews) with large numbers and they are Jewish who converts to Christianity and still identify themselves as Jews and still maintain their Jewish traditions, thes are: Hebrew Catholics and Messianic Judaism.

What i want to say is since Ashkenazi Jews as an ethnic group, as you said and some Jewish (not rare and not small numbers) convert to Christianity why I can't add Christianity it's truth some are Chrsitians : {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians.??

I'm not saying to add this and making a paragraph about it and i don't think it's irrelevant, it's only small word adding this here {{Infobox ethnic group: |rels = Judaism, some secular, irreligious, Christians. as i explaind befor the Majority of Ashkenazi Jews practice Judaism but also some are secular, irreligious, and some are Christians (in the USA alone there are 1.6 millions).— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.220.138.140 (talk) 00:20, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

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