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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by KissL (talk | contribs) at 08:09, 17 July 2006 (archiving quite a bit). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

An event mentioned in this article is a June 4 selected anniversary

Relevance of economic power in the introduction?

What make this so important that it needs to be included in the introduction?

The winning powers included one economic mainstream within Europe, that is the nations that had gone through rapid progress in the 19th century due to industrial revolution and, to a certain extent, to colonialism (Britain, France, and to a smaller extent Italy). Austria-Hungary also experienced economic progress especially in the late 19th century (without relying on colonization), but remained a European country with a relatively underdeveloped economy.

-- nyenyec ☎ 01:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Consequences

It should be mentioned how the effects of the treaty determined Hungarian foreign and military policy leading up to and including WW2. -- nyenyec ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

House of Terror

What does it have to do with the treaty of Trianon?

-- nyenyec ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Tragedy

As to the discussion about whether Trianon is considered as a national tragedy for Hungary or only for Hungarian nationalists, I can confirm the former. But to cite a neutral source, according to Loney Planet Hungary (by Steve Fallon, 2000): "Trianon became the singularly most hated word in Hungary, and the diktátum is often reviled today as if it were imposed on the nation only yesterday." Vay 13:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Is this a mainstream view or is it constrained to right-wing nationalists, similar to the Pan-Germanism still embraced e.g. by the Austrian FPÖ. Jbetak 14:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Considering it as a tragedy is fairly mainstream, seeking territorial revision is constrained to the extreme right (without representation in the Parliament). Vay 15:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. Would it be fair to compare the mainstream views of Trianon to those of the Battle of Mohács? Obviously, Trianon was not followed by an enemy invasion, but the similarities are IMHO striking. Jbetak 15:19, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it would be fair. It is common to describe Hungarian history as a sequence of tragedies (lost battles, failed revolutions): conquest of Tartars, Mohács, Világos (where the revolutionary army finally capitulated in 1849), Trianon, Nyilas takeover in 1944, and finally 1956. It would be interesting to know whether these experiences lead to the pessimism that is so all-pervading in Magyar culture, or this pessimism determined somehow the way of telling the story. BTW the period between 1867 and 1918 is among the few that is regarded as successful by most people (thus further distancing Magyar POV from that of others regarding this era primarily as the period of Magyarization). Vay 15:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Plebiscites

PANONIAN insists on the fact that plebiscites were held in Alba Iulia and Novi Sad, reverting a version by HunTomy. According to a neutral (Croatian) source: "For this reason, it is surprising that the winning forces of the First World War did not adopt the principle of self-determination (which they themselves emphasized in the context of Wilson’s 11 Points) and conduct a plebiscite in Vojvodina." 1 According to a Romanian source, there was indeed a plebiscite in Alba Iulia: a plebiscite of all Romanians in Transylvania and Hungary, and later an other one in Cernauti: a plebiscite of all Romanians. 2. It is fair to tell that this was not a vote by all inhabitants of the territories concerned, the electorate having been the Romanian community. I will not revert to HunTomy's version, but wait for PANONIAN's sources. Vay 19:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It's disgusting how extreme nationalists hustling here who say that there were plebiscites in the historical Hungary. There was some congresses where some extreme sepetarists declared something supperted by foreign powers. Abominable.... HunTomy 2006.01.19.

I wrote now that there were no plebiscites held in the "Hungarian majority areas", because it is why you object to this, right? But to say that there were no any plebiscites and that non-Hungarian peoples were separated from Hungary against their will is simply wrong. They did said what is their will. PANONIAN (talk) 17:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I missed that edit. That is OK for me, of course I don't think Romanians were not happy to unite with Romania, etc. Vay 18:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

What "Hungarian majority areas" existed at that time? Vasile 17:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Roughly where Hungarian communities still live today. Szeklerland, eastern part of Partium, several cities of Partium and Transylvania (Oradea, Cluj, etc.), southern part of Slovakia including Kosice, and norther part of Vojvodina including Subotica. It would have been useful to held plebiscites in ethnically mixed areas like Bratislava, etc. as well. It's history now, so you might even admit that it wouldn't have been a bad idea after all. Vay 18:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It would have been a very bad solution for those peoples. --Vasile 21:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Holding plebiscites? Why? Vay 22:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

How do imagine the peoples of 1918, after 4 years of war? Had any Alsace and Lorraine, Czech & Sudetland or Poland plebiscite? An unfriendly plebiscite was kept in Sopron, between friendly Hungary and Austria. --Vasile 23:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Had plebiscites been held, there might have been no 2nd WW. Vay 00:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Not in 1939, but in 1919. --Vasile 00:21, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, there's an interesting article by one Sabin Gherman on the previous version of the page by HunTomy. Who is that guy? Maybe you should write an article about him... BTW, don't be naive, HunTomy, Romanians _were_ happy to unite, Wesselényi warned already before 1848 that the historic country was in danger... I guess Gherman is a Transylvanist, or simply a guy fed up with usual E-European provincialism (we could cite Endre Ady about Hungarians and the magyar ugar as well...) Vay 23:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not naive. Who wants to live in a balcan level country? Transylvania became part of an Eastern Europen country, which is poor, undeveloped and corrupt. Vojvodina now belongs to the balcan. Very joyful. And i would not talk about the level of Subcarpathia (which is now belongs to Ukraine)... Endre Ady did not want to seperate from Hungary just wrote critics about the social system of the contemporary Hungary. Or you can read "És ha Erdélyt elveszik?" (And what will happen if they took Transylvania?) from Ady from 1912

And remember: the "magyarisation" was a natural process not dictatorial like romanians, czeckslovaks and yugoslavs did after 1920. This is a great difference...

Well, Vojvodina "do not belong to the Balkans". As an native Vojvodinian I can tell you that Vojvodina is still in Central Europe where it always was, and present day Serbia is both, Balkanic and Central European country, as well as Serbs are both, Balkanic and Central European people. So, please do not teach me where I live, ok? PANONIAN (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Ask some people from the real central or western europe about serbia. Serbia is primarily balcanic. I know what is the balcanic character.

The question was about Vojvodina. The geographical, physical and natural region Balkans (one of Europe's 11 such regions) ends at the Sava river and at the Danube in Serbia, i.o.w. Vojvodina is not part of the Balkans. If we add a historical point of view, it is not part of the Balkans all the more. Juro 20:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

From the "real" Central Europe? And I live in the "false" one then, right? Please... As Juro explained, geographical borders of Balkans are clear. As for cultural borders of Balkans some people claim that those are same as the borders of the former Ottoman Empire in Europe, thus most of the neighbouring parts of Hungary, Romania, and Croatia are culturally Balkanic too, but that was not the point. PANONIAN (talk) 20:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

New Hungarian state vs continuity

I think it is wrong to put "new Hungarian state" in the first paragraph since the state following the Trianon dictate was the same Kingdom of Hungary, albeit dismembered. Also, instead of a simple "agreement", I would insist to put "enforced agreement" since Hungary did not voluntarily renounce two thirds of its historical territory but the country signed the treaty under duress.81.183.183.18 21:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Over-emphasizing the distinction between Hungary and Kingdom of Hungary is clearly POV - Kingdom of Hungary existed until the end of WW2. For Vasile: Whether Hungary having been independent or not, created as a "new state" or not, see the above discussion and the article and discussion on Kingdom of Hungary, where a compromise has been reached. Vay 03:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The state of 1918 is clearly a continuation of that of 1867. It achieved the sovereignty and was totally separated by Austria: that was the sense of the expression "new independent state". Despite the name still in use until 1945, it seems that "kingdom of Hungary" ceased to exist in 1918. I doubt that kingdom of Hungary actually existed between 1867 and 1918. The army was the essential and traditional element connecting the monarchic institution with a people or nation in 19th century. (Info in Ausgleich article is very unclear anyway.) --Vasile 02:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

If the Kingdom of Hungary did not exist after the Compromise, what did the acronym k.u.k refer to? (just a brief question...). The truth is, the Kingdom of Hungary had retained its existence since St. Stephen's coronation, even the Austrian emperors ruled the country as Hungarian kings (they had to be crowned by St. Stephen's Holy Crown in order to be considered legal rulers). Thus Hungary was not a hereditary province of Austria, but as an independent kingdom, part of the Habsburg Empire. (As opposed to like Slovakia, which name is always used by Slovak nationalists for the medieval history of Northern Hungary, it never existed as a separate administrative entity, it was always an integral part of the Kingdom of Hungary.) 84.2.101.172 12:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear fascist, I can repeat that 100 times if you want. The term Slovakia exists at least from the 15th century. It is now used by ALL Slovaks and everybody else in Europe (not by "nationalists"). Regions in the world have their names, even if they are no administrative entities or states. And nobody has ever claimed that there was a POLITICAL entity called Slovakia, that is your personal invention to have at least something you could critise. Juro 20:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear "drótos tót", regions usually follow administrative or historical boundaries, and the region you calling Slovakia was called "Felsőmagyarország" or "Felföld" or "Felvidék" for the most part of history.

Dear nomadic Asian fascist (I hope I have used the equivalent of your above 19th century insult), "Felsőmagyarország" referred to eastern Slovakia and in the 19th century to the territory to the north of the Danube, Tisza and including the Carpathian Ruthenia (I see no similarity to the territory of Slovakia and no chronological relevance). And above all, it was completely inofficial in the second sense. And dear nothing-knowing fascist, "Felvidék", as you can read in Hungarian literature of the 19th century on this topic, did not mean anything, the word was a neologism and referred to "the territories to the north of the place of the speaker" or the "northern mountanous territories" or sometimes was just confused with "Felsőmagyarország". The Hungarian language name for Slovakia in the late 19th century was "Szlovenskó". Irrespective of this, this is an international encyclopedia, and English books, Czech, French, German etc. used (also) the term Slovakia for the "territory inhabited by Slovaks". It is that simple. Juro 02:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Wrong again, just as everywhere, first of all, "drótos (tinker) tót" was not an insult but an occupation, just as "szódás tót". The words "Felsőmagyarország, Felvidék and not the least, Felföld" have been extensively used throughout history, Felföld exactly meant the mountaineous area north of the Alföld (Plains), here is an example from a Hungarian literary gem: Péter Bornemissza: Siralmas énnékem

(Sorrowful song):

Az Felföldet bírják az kevély nímötök

Szerémséget bírják az fene törökök

(Rough translation:

Our upper land is in the hands of the haughty Germans

Szerémség is in the hands of the hellish Ottomans).

Examples like this exists galore. And btw, the "Land inhabited by Slovaks" would have had no meaning in the Middle Ages (it could have only represented some villages in the North), since the urban population and the intelligentsia was mainly composed of Hungarian and (mostly) German ethnics.Enigma1 22:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

"Szlovenszkó" was used briefly after WW1, when everybody was shocked by the emergence of the new state, and they simply translated the Slovak term. As for Slovakia, it couldn't have been a widespread indication, if even 1911 Britannica (with a clear pro-Slovak bias thanks to Scotus Viator) does not mention it: ]. Vay 05:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Szlovenszkó was also used before WW1, however rarely, sure, I just wanted to point out that it even exists in Hungarian. As for Britannica, no the encyclopedia has the opposite bias, quite naturally, and it does not mention it (I have not checked that I have to believe you) because it was no administrative unit or state at that time. The biggest Czech encyclopedia, for example, mentions it. There are even encyclopedias in the 17th century that mention it, again - rarely, sure. Irrespective of this "encyclopedias", the term was used as a completely normal term at least from the 15th ncetury onward by the locals, especially by the Germans (Slowakey etc.). And, a Slovak nationalist would inform you that the term "Slovak land" occurs in the documents even in the middle ages (the translation of the Latin term is however disputed for that time). As for Upper Hungary, in the 19th century, even the Slovaks used ALSO to say that they live in Upper Hungary (i.e. in northern Hungary), since Slovakia and Upper Hungary are different terms, but intercept in a part. My point above was that nobody has ever claimed that there was a STATE called Slovakia in 1917, so I do not understand, what I have to react to this constant heckling here, actually. Juro 01:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

You can not seriously assert the independece of KH between 1867 and 1918 without proving the existence of aspects of a modern sovereign state: national citizenship, external policy, national army and security force, and international recognition of the independent state. --Vasile 12:29, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

During the millennial history of the Hungarian Kingdom, the utmost sovereignty was exercised by the Holy Crown of St. Stephen, according to the Holy Crown Doctrine (Szent Korona Tan), even kings were subjected to the Crown (this is a unique feature of the Kingdom of Hungary, since no other nation had a crown that had such a sacred connotation), even Habsburgs had to be crowned with the Holy Crown in order to be accepted as legitimate rulers. Also an important aspect that the Hungarian kings were called "Apostolic King of Hungary", hence the apostolic cross in the Hungarian coat of arms. The main point is that the Kingdom of Hungary clearly existed separately from the hereditary provinces of Austria, like Bohemia (Czechia) for example, which had been an integral part of the German (and later, the Austrian Empire for most of the Middle Ages).Enigma1 22:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting that Hungarians themselves claimed in 1918/1919 that their new independent state have no continuity with the Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary, and therefor their new state was not a kingdom, but REPUBLIC (Hungarian Democratic Republic and Hungarian Soviet Republic after it). Problem is that Hungarians in that time did not know what will be the borders of their new independent state. When borders of independent Hungary were defined in 1920, Hungarian nationalists who were not satisfied with these borders changed the story about the continuity and now claimed that Hungary have continuity with the former kingdom (the country was even officially named kingdom again, no matter that it did not had a king, but only regent). Thus, the whole story about continuity is a story about "right" to territories outside of the Hungarian borders, and its purpose is to justify border changes in favor of Hungary. Of course, the real question is why now in the 21st century somebody have need to talk about continuity of Hungary. Just imagine how would look if somebody would start talking about continuity of France or continuity of United Kingdom. PANONIAN (talk) 00:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with continuity, since in 1918/1919, for a brief period, Hungary was a republic and a Soviet republic, so obviously, they rejected any kind of continuity with the old kingdom (the Communists even went as far as renouncing their claim to Hungarian territorial integrity, however it is true that later on, Béla Kun's army beat the crap out of the Czechs and nearly liberated Felvidék, but this is off topic). As soon as legitimacy was restored in the name of the Holy Crown, continuity was restored, as well. Enigma1 22:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Apart from continuity, a section detailing the economic and cultural consequences of the Trianon Dictate would be most welcome, describing that the main driving force behind the treaty was to disempower a united, and highly prosperous economic region by dissolving the historical Hungary into more backward puppet states. Also, a forced and systematic destruction of Hungarian cultural instututions (schools, theaters, universities - like in Pozsony and Kolozsvár), mass expulsion and deportation of Hungarians should be documented objectively. Enigma1 22:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The country was NOT a prosperous region, it was a very backward country, especially Hungary. People were leaving the country in masses (hundreds of thousands). So, read a book of fairy tales or something and let normal people do their work, OK ? Juro 06:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

You don't like the truth very much now, do you? Yes, there was mass emigration to America (mostly from poverty-ridden areas which were mostly inhabited by Rusyns or - incidentally - Slovaks) but the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and Hungary as a whole underwent its most prosperous growth period in the area, much of the current infrastructure (roads, railways, does the Kassa-Oderberg railway ring a bell?) was built in that period. But even after the dissolution of the Monarchy, Hungary always remained much more prosperous and westernized than the successor states. Take Czechoslovakia for instance in which the so-called "state-forming" nations were much less advanced than the "subjugated" Germans and Hungarians. 81.182.209.170 20:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Cease fire lines or borders

Hello PANONIAN (talk)! I think these borders became international borders by signing of the Treaty of Trianon by all sides. There were a lot of military movement in the region after November 1918 and I don't think, that you would accept that the border of Romania was in the middle of Budapest. I agree however, that there were only little clashes with the Serbian Army after December 1918 and the Serbian occupation zone existed as Serbian territory in this period (incuding today's South Hungary). The fully recognized international borders of Hungary were set by the Treaty of Trianon.

kelenbp 13:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said, the SCS Kingdom was internationally recognized as a country in 1919, and all its provinces that belonged to former Austria-Hungary were recognized as part of this country (The Treaty of Trianon only confirmed this with minor border corrections in the north). The point is that, the cease-fire lines from November 1918 were international borders (temporar ones of course) of SCS Kingdom when it was recognized as a country. Also, the Serbian occupation zone you mentioned officially was called like this only until November 25, 1918, when the area officially became part of Serbia. I do not know much about borders of Slovakia and Romania, but in the case of SCS Kingdom, it were not only cease fire lines. PANONIAN (talk) 13:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever we say, the SCS Kingdom has fallen apart twice in history (in 1941 and in the 90's), the penultimate product of Trianon (except for Romania) is finding a miserable end right before our eyes, it is a question of time before Bácska votes for independence and reunion with Hungary Árpád 22:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hahahaha. Good joke. You made my day. :))) PANONIAN (talk) 02:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Just watch it happening, Kosovo is next. What will remain afterwards from the Balkan's "pariah state"? Árpád 02:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, what ever you say... However, this is an encyclopaedia, not a political forum, thus, you should find some other place to present your "opinion". PANONIAN (talk) 20:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Then stick to the truth and stop claiming ridiculous things like Pécs being a Serbian town while objective statistics prove that the Hungarian ethnic area went as far down as Újvidék...

There is no conflikt between my and your data. Your data is from 1910 and mine is from 1715 (much has changed during these 200 years because of the Magyarization policy). PANONIAN (talk) 12:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

There are also data before the Turkish occupation when the population of the territory of the current Vojvodina was overwhelmingly Hungarian. The beginning of the 18th century shows a low number of Hungarians because they took the lion's share of fighting against the Turks so obviously their share in the population dwindled. This can also be ascribed to the settlement policy of the Habsburg Empire.

You only forgot to mention that before the Hungarian conquest in the 10th century, the population of present-day Vojvodina was overwhelmingly Slavic, and the research of the toponyms showed that these Slavs spoke the same language as Serbs. It is questionable whether all of them were Serbs by their national feeling (some of them certainly did), but linguistically and ethnologically they were no different than Serbs. PANONIAN (talk) 22:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There were Slavic population all in the Pannonian Plain between the 8-10th centuries but they were not modern nations like Serbs or Slovaks. In the case of the Slovaks it is sure that they are descendants of this Slavic population (although there were constants migration over the Carpathian Mountains in the Middle Ages). But the Serbs became an independent nation in the 9-10th century deep in the Balkan Peninsula, and the Slavs of the Great Plain assimilated into the Magyars in the early Middle Ages. I don't think there is any continuity of population between them and the Serbs. Zello 22:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

And I did not said that there was a continuity between most of the Serbs who migrated from Rascia in the 14th century and their ethnic cousins that lived in Vojvodina in the 10th century, but there is also no continuity between Magyars who lived in Vojvodina in the 16th century and Magyars who migrated to Vojvodina from the north in the 18th and 19th century. PANONIAN (talk) 23:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Only one important difference: although the Magyars of Bácska were killed or fled in the Turkish Wars, and you are right that there is no continuity in persons, the Magyars as a nation or ethnicity are continous with themselves since the 10th century until now. Serbs are similary continous with themselves since the 9th century - but Serbs are not continous as a nation with the SLAVS of the Pannonian Plain. At most they are related to them as they are related to Croats, Slovenes etc. Zello 00:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that is where you wrong because present-day Serbs are continuous as a nation with the Slavs of the Pannonian Plain. It is part of these Slavs that moved from the Pannonian plain to Balkans in the 6th century, and present-day Serbs are descendants of these Slavs. The Serbs that settled in Balkans a century latter were in fact the Sorbs (Lusatian Serbs), who mixed with Pannonian-Balkan Slavs, and transfered their name to them, but lost their Sorbian language. Present day Serbian language did not derived from Sorbian, but rather from Ukrainian, which confirm the Slavic migration from western Ukraine to Pannonian plain and Balkans. Present-day Serbs, Croats and Slovenes are all descendants of these Slavs. PANONIAN (talk) 01:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously what you wrote is the best argument against the national continuity between Serbs and Pannonian Slavs. These people didn't form a specific nation - they were a branch of that ancient Slavic people that migrated and settled in different areas of Central-Europe and later formed different nations. Every Slavic people are related to each other. But related is not "the same" - this is what I say. Even the Croats are not Serbs but a different nation. So you cannot claim that Pannonian Slavs were Serbs, they were Pannonian Slavs. They lost the opportunity to develop into a unique Slav nation and establish their own country because of the arrival of the Magyars. So they disappered in an early stage. But the medieval Magyars of Bácska were Magyars because the Magyar nation already took shape around the 11th century in the Pannonian Plain (as the Serb also but not in Vojvodina). Zello 02:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems that we do not have same difinition of a term nation. It is not name that define a nation, but common culture, language, religion, etc. The point is that ancestors of the Serbs lived in Pannonian plain before they settled in Balkans and the question whether they in that time called themselves Serbs, Slavs, Wends or Russians is really irrelevant for this question. Of course, I agree that these early Pannonian Slavs are also ancestors of Hungarians, thus the continuity of both nations would be the same. However, only Serbs kept the language and culture of their ancestors (Pannonian Slavs), while Pannonian Slavs who became Hungarians lost that language and culture and adopted language and culture of Hungarians instead. The second question is about that medieval Serb and Hungarian nation. The modern nations were formed in the 18th and 19th century, and in medieval times the term nation had very different meaning. When we speak about medieval Hungarians and Serbs we rather speak about citizens of Hungary and Serbia than about modern nations. In that time, the Hungarian was simply somebody who lived in Hungary, and the Serb was somebody who lived in Serbia. Much more important question is what language was spoken by people who lived there because modern ethnology classify nations by the language they speak. If we compare the language situation in Vojvodina in history, we can see that from the arrival of the Slavs in the 5th century to the 13th century (800 years), dominant language of population of Vojvodina was Slavic (and not just any Slavic, but exactly that which was later called Serbo-Croatian), between 13th and 16th century dominant language was Hungarian (300 years), and after 16th century until the present day it was Slavic again (500 years). Point is, if somebody was called Hungarian because he lived in medieval Hungarian state, but if Hungarian was not his native language, we cannot say that he was same with modern Hungarians, neither you can claim continuity between those people and modern Hungarians. PANONIAN (talk) 10:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Another very interesting question is a dialect spoken by Serbs in Vojvodina. See the map of Serbo-Croatian dialects: http://sr.wikipedia.org/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0:DijalektiStok.jpg The Serbs in Vojvodina speak their own dialect, which is, besides Vojvodina, spoken elsewhere only in the territory of former banovina of Mačva which also belonged to the medieval Hungarian state. If Serbs of Vojvodina and Mačva were only migrants from the south, they would speak some of the southern dialects, but they do not (as opposite example, it is evident that Serbs of Bosanska Krajina and Croatia speak the same dialect as Serbs of Herzegovina, thus it is clear that they migrated from there). It is also important that all these dialects from the map are very old - Serbs settled in Bosanska Krajina and Croatia in the 16th century and they still speak the Herzegovinian dialect, still not formed their own. PANONIAN (talk) 11:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd have a few things to say but once we can follow the discussion in a more proper place, for example the History of Vojvodina article :) Zello 14:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. Wherever you find it suitable. PANONIAN (talk) 15:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"national tragedy" clause

The sentence "Many Hungarians consider the treaty a national tragedy still today." is correct. I can't find any sources right now asserting this, but in fact if you google for "Trianon" and see the bulk quantity of heated discussions in Hungarian going on on various sites, that should be proof enough. KissL 07:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)