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Chaldean people redirect

If you are going to redirect the Chaldean people page to this page you must include Chaldean information here as well. If not then you must revert this redirection. Figure it out --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 05:17, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Lawrencegoriel: this entire page is idiotic, the redirection was put in place, the excuse at the time being "Content Fork". It's quite clear the content fork didn't really exist. Because all they did was remove the Syriac-Aramean and Chaldean pages without modifying the content of the existing page to accommodate the others. Typical Assyrian properganda. This was done by means contrary to the conventions of Misplaced Pages, see the links below:
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=16628.95;wap2
http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=16628.100;wap2

This has been done with the clear intention of violating the Canvassing rules, clearly vote-stacking and Stealth Canvassing. This is why the content of the Assyrian People page is the way that it is. Sr 76 (talk) 05:58, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Sr 76: I am acutely aware of the situation you are mentioning, as I have attended some Assyrian functions where they have boasted their accomplishments on deleting Chaldean history as well as other Near East Christian identities. It is sad that they have gotten as far as they have without anyone offering any kind of sufficient resistance. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 15:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

This is a naming issue more than anything else. As Sebastian Brock, arguably the most authoritative scholar of Syriac Christianity, explains the naming conflict briefly here, while the term "Assyrian" is the most popular to describe the ethnic identity of Syriac Christians, it remains problematic and not universally accepted. Forking content to Chaldean and Syriac people will create more problems, I'm in the opinion of using a complex term, it is officially used in Iraq, US and Sweden, so why not also in Misplaced Pages.--Kathovo talk 19:39, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kathovo:In the Iraqi Constitution, Chaldeans and Assyrians are named separately. They simply are not the same people. I have many many sources I can cite if you're interested. --Lawrencegoriel (talk) 22:28, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

It's a complex issue as I said, you are probably referring to article 125 which states:

يضمن هذا الدستور الحقوق الادارية والسياسية والثقافية والتعليمية للقوميات المختلفة كالتركمان، والكلدان والآشوريين، وسائر المكونات الاخرى، وينظم ذلك بقانون.‎

Literally: "Constitution guarantees rights ... of Turkmen, Chaldeans and Assyrians, and other groups..." Notice the commas, also nowhere it suggests Chaldeans and Syriacs are separate, if you want to delve into why they were mentioned this way and why Syriacs were omitted I suggest you read this interview with Yonadam Kanna. The status qua on the ground is that Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs compete on the same reserved political positions in central and KRG parliaments as well as municipal councils' elections. Usually it's Assyrian political parties that win most seats by popular votes, despite the fact that what you would describe as "non-Assyrians" form the majority of voters.--Kathovo talk 07:33, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Background info Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriac) -- Moxy (talk) 16:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kathovo: Your editing on the English version of Misplaced Pages, please post using English, thank you. Mlpearc (open channel) 17:02, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Hes quoting The Iraqi Constitution - looks like Article 121 to me - I think its something to do with commas...however in the translation to English they seem to put comma. -- Moxy (talk) 16:29, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kathovo I'm not sure what you mean by content fork, there is very little evidence of this on the page. With the exception of the first line. The page is almost exclusively Assyrian content, or content setup to "prove" Assyrian continuity.Sr 76 (talk) 03:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I realise just as you do that this article is flawed, you made several suggestions to improve its contents by removing POV references and making it more open to unrepresented views. I don't see what content you can fit in "Chaldean people" but not in "Assyrian people".--Kathovo talk 20:17, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Kathovo, I appreciate what you are saying. It's true, the time period between the Chaldeans and Assyrians receiving these appellations is not great, what ever facts exists about the Chaldeans we have during those few centuries, is valid enough for them to presented under the name Chaldean and hence treating today's Chaldeans with dignity. There is nothing dignified with the way Wikipeadia is setup at the moment. Sr 76 (talk) 23:51, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Syrius777 (talk) 15:34, 18 May 2015 (UTC)I personally don't like this redirect. Chaldean's have a long history and there is a lot to be written about. The redirect to Assyrian looks like its more a political move in which i am not happy about. I also dont believe that Assyrians and Chaldean's are the same People. For instance look at the Babylonian and the Assyrian historical war or the old Aramaic of the letters in Babylon and even in Assyria, such proving also that today Assyrian's are rather Aramaic.

good storyIphoneonderdeel (talk) 08:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Legends/Mythology used as historical evidence to promote notions of Assyrian Continuity

The false representation of Mar Behnam and Mar Qardah's assyrian identity was removed from this Assyrian People page, by myself(if i remember correctly). I added these references on the talk page to make sure people making edits to the page don't reinsert them on politically motivated grounds as is usually the case on this page. The explanation of why this section was collapsed is illogical and warrants further examination.

We see this same problem of Mar Behnam and Mar Qardah's appearing on other page such as:
https://en.wikipedia.org/Mar_Behnam
https://en.wikipedia.org/Mar_Qardagh
https://en.wikipedia.org/Sinharib

Sr 76 (talk) 06:29, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Syrian/Syriac synonyms with Aramean

Reworked: Just Quotes from academics:

ACADEMICS CONFIRMING THE SYNONYMITY OF SYRIAN AND ARAMEAN

Theodor Noldeke, Compendious Syriac Grammar
Page iv
"From the time the Greeks came to have a more intimate acquaintance with Asia, they designated by the name 'Syrians' the people who called themselves 'Arameans'."

Theodor Nöldeke, Assyrios Syrios Syros, in Zeitschrift für klassische Philologie, Hermes 5, Berlin 1871
page 460
"The main body of the population of all these wide landscapes from the Mediterranean Sea to beyond the Tigris belonged to a certain nationality, that of the Arameans."
page 461
"It is well understandable that people have started to transfer the name of the country to the most important nationality and so the name 'syrian' was apprehended ethnological and was equated with 'aramaic'."
page 468
"Since the times of Alexander , if not already somewhat earlier, people have started to transfer the name of the Syrians exclusively over the prevailing in Syria nationality, and in this way this originally political-geographical term became an ethnological one that was identified with the local Arameans."

Theodor Noldeke, Die Namen der aramäischen Nation und Sprache,” in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenländischen Gesellschaft 25 (1871) page 131
"Regarding the name of this nation and its language is the original 'Aramean’ in essence also the only one, that for the employment of the present-day scholarship as yet strongly fits.”

Karl Eduard Sachau, Verzeichnis der Syrischen Handschriften der königlichen Bibliothek zu Berlin von Eduard Sachau 1. Abteilung, Berlin 1899
Page i
"The nation of the Arameans: This national name later, mainly in consequence of Jewish-Christian literature influences, gave way to the Greek designation Syrians."

Prof. Dietrich Hermann Hegewisch, Die Aramäer oder Syrer; ein kleiner Beitrag zur allgemeinen Weltgeschichte, Berlinische Monatschrift, 2, 1794
page 193
"Do not the Syrians, as they are usually called, or the Arameans, as they in fact are termed, deserve more attention in world history than they are usually given?"
page 197
"The names Syria, Assyria, Mesopotamia, Babylon, etc. stem from the Greeks, who were not familiar with the true geography of these lands when the names first started to be used. Later, partly because of continuing ignorance and partly because of convenience despite having accurate knowledge, they persisted in using them since it would have required something of an effort to give up the old, familiar names and divisions of the countries and switch to the new ones, even if they were more accurate. The old, true, and single name of these lands is Aram; it is mentioned numerous times in the Bible of the Old Testament, and Greek scholars were also familiar with it and probably described the population of these areas as Arameans, though seldom, as they usually continued to use the term Syrian, which had been familiar to the Greeks."
page 307
"The Syrians or Arameans were not merely a numerous and large people, they were also a much cultivated people."

Theodor Mommsen, The History of Rome, written between 1854 and 1856, Leipzig, by Theodor Mommsen, Book First
Chapter One
"the Arameans defended their nationality with the weapons of intellect as well as with their blood against all the allurements of Greek civilization and all the coercive measures of eastern and western despots, and that with an obstinacy which no Indo- Germanic people has ever equalled, and which to us who are Occidentals seems to be sometimes more, sometimes less, than human."

S.P.Brock and J.F.Coakley, Syriac Heritage Encylopedic Dictionary
page 31
"In many Syriac writers Aramoyo and Suryoyo are synonyms; normally this refers to the language, but on occasion they are used as alternate ethnic terms"

Dr. Muhammad Shamsaddin Megalommatis
http://www.afroarticles.com/article-dashboard/Article/Aram-Nahrin--the-Aramaeans--the-Bible--Christianity--and-the-West/27211
"The Semitic Arameans ('not to be confused with "Armenians") underwent a change of name after they had embraced Christianity and were then called "Syrians", in order to be distinguished from the Arameans who were not converted. However, this should not be confused with the present-day Syrian Arabs."

R.Zadok, "The Ethno-Linguistic Character of the Jezireh and Adjacent Regions in the 9th-7th centuries (Assyria Proper vs Periphery),"(1995)
page 280
"These Arameans were presumably the forerunners of the sizable Syriac-speaking population of this region during the Byzantine and later periods"

John Joseph, Assyria and Syria: Synonyms?
page 37
"FIRST: WESTERN USAGE OF 'SYRIA' AND 'ASSYRIA': There was a time when the West , not fully familiar with the Near East, did not differentiate between Syria and Assyria, especially when the Assyrians were still in power. But as early as the fifth century B.C., about two centuries after the fall of Nineveh, Herodotus very clearly differentiated between the two terms and regions. Randolph Helm’s researches show that Herodotus “conscientiously” and “consistently” distinguished the names Syria and Assyria and used them independently of each other."

page 38
"page he even speaks of “the long-accepted statement of Herodotus (7.63) that the Greeks called Assyrians by the name Syrian without initial a-.” On the following page he notes that Herodotus “may represent a turning point” in the separation of the two terms."
.....
"When the Greeks became better acquainted with the Near East, especially after Alexander the Great overthrew the Achaemenian empire in the 4th century B.C., and then the Greeks and Romans ruled the region for centuries, they restricted the name Syria to the lands west of the Euphrates. During the 3rd century B.C., when the Hebrew bible was translated into the Greek Septuagint for the use of the Hellenized Jews of Alexandria, the terms Aramean and Aramaic of the Hebrew Bible were translated into 'Syrian' and 'the Syrian tongue' respectively."

SYRIAC ARAMAIC EXAMPLES

S.P.Brock and J.F.Coakley, Syriac Heritage Encylopedic Dictionary
page 31
"Bardaisan is described as Suryoyo and Aramoyo "
"Ya'qub of Edessa, in his 'Encheiridion' and elsewhere, speaks of 'we are Suryoye , or Aramoye '."
"This equation is further elaborated in Appendix II to Michael Rabo's Chronicle."
(see the Dorothea Weltecke below for the actual Michael the Syrian's quote)

Crone Cook, Hagarism
page 196
"they quite frequently speak of themselves and their language as Aramean"

Dorothea Weltecke,Religious Origins of Nations?: The Christian Communities of the Middle East
Page: 119
"Things become less clear when we try to decide his position concerning secular and ethnic identity. It is obvious that for Michael the ancient Near East had a very special importance. The ancient Near East recurred in the Chronicle. In the heading of his Appendix II Michael states: 'With the help of God we write down the memory of the kingdoms which belong in the past to our Aramean people, that is, sons of Aram, who are called Suryoye , this people from Syria'....This statement seems to be straightforward enough. But compared to other phrases, some contradictions arise. Following the work by Flavius Josephus (37-after 100 CE) through intermediaries, Michael explains the change of the name of ancient Near Eastern people end empires through the changes by the Greeks 'The Arameans were called Syrians by the Greeks and Oturoye were called Assyrians.' This statement is in accordance with the sentence just quoted." Sr 76 (talk) 06:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2015

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Would like to add the term "Ashurites" which is a more accurate term for Assyrians, as it states that they are both the inhabitants of Ashur and the sons of the Biblical Ashur. Ordo de Essentia (talk) 01:00, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Mlpearc (open channel) 04:31, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

Jumping to Assyrian People

I just search for "Syriac People" and it jumped to "Assyrian People", why is it doing this???!! --ArameanSyriac (talk) 11:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes it's wrong, it needs to change. --ZhangFeii (talk) 13:05, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

@ArameanSyriac I advise you to take a look into the archives of the Assyrian people and Syriac people articles on Misplaced Pages and you will notice that this mess occurred due to poor administration of some Misplaced Pages admins here who are not familiar with this topic. They gave a certain group of Syriac Christians a free pass to spread their ideological agenda and got backing from most Misplaced Pages admins. Where is the neutrality of those admins here!? They don't even bother to fix this mess. German Misplaced Pages fixed this problem by creating identity articles rather than ethnicity articles. This means that you would have articles about the modern Assyrians "Assyrians (present)" and about the ancient pre-Christian nation called "Assyrians". The current Assyrian people article reflects the idea of Assyrian ideology, where only members of the Assyrian Church of the East, Chaldean Catholic Church, Syriac Orthodox Church and Syriac Catholic Church are part of their "Assyrian" nation with the idea to be the descendants of the ancient Assyro-Akkadian nation. The Syriac-Arameans disagree with them on that and reject the Assyrianization of their Aramean heritage. Most Syriac-Aramean articles were either removed, falsified or redirected to the Assyrian people article, because of alleged content fork. Interestingly none of the Syriac-Aramean content of the Syriac people page was accommodated to this page, so much for the content fork claim by the Assyrian fraction and the Misplaced Pages admins. I am wondering when the admins will redirect Christianity and Judaism to the Islam article. The name or ethnicity conflict is a serious problem, but to ignore the Syriac-Aramean people totally and by giving the Assyrians more credit than other Syriac Christians is the wrong way to solve this problem on Misplaced Pages at least.--Suryoyo124 (talk) 13:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

@Suryoyo124: But don't they realize how wrong this is? what can be done about it? I have read the page it's just Assyrian nationalism there is no real information Syrius777 (talk) 06:32, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

@Syrius777 We need more Wikipedians to get involved into this topic and especially neutral admins. Last year in December, we have tried to find a solution, but only a few people were involved into this discussion. Ironically the discussion was led by one of the admins who is responsible for this mess and the redirection of the Syriac (Aramean) people article to the Assyrian people article without a valid reason. Why is there a WikiProjectAssyria, instead of a WikiProjectArameans or WikiProjectChaldeans? I mean their name and so called ethnicity is not less disputed. Why do they have a higher status on English Misplaced Pages in comparison to other Syriac Christians? Like I said many, many times before, this is not a simple name conflict among the Syriac Christians about which group has the nicest sounding name. People need to understand that Syriac-Arameans and Assyrians have a !fundamental! different point of view of defining their ethnicity/nation, so that it would be inaccurate to call an Aramean 'Assyrian' or an Assyrian 'Aramean'. German Misplaced Pages fixed this problem by creating identity group articles (Assyrer (Gegenwart) and Aramäer (Christentum)), instead of following a certain ideology, even though Syriac Christians, including the Assyrians and Chaldeans, are commonly known as Aramäer (Arameans) in Germany. You can use both names on German Misplaced Pages, because German Misplaced Pages distinguishes between modern Arameans and Assyrians and the ancient pre-Christian nations.--Suryoyo124 (talk) 14:16, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The assyrians are just a political creation, they are Syriac Arameans. The whole assyrian history is just a bad story from the british. Iphoneonderdeel (talk) 11:58, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Suryoyo124:Why more people? Why would more people being involved fix this? Syrius777 (talk) 14:13, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

More people will not really help, they will just end up getting blocked because they don't understand the Misplaced Pages rules and Wiki-Admin are just tired of this issue. The reality is in the hands of the Misplaced Pages Administrators to correct the issue. They know the sources are lacking and most of the content is simply false.

My original solution was to have Aramean People page and Assyrian People page and Chaldean People Page referring to the modern-Day Arameans/Assyrians/Chaldeans. With the ancient pages separate. Now I am thinking since there was a consensus at the time to keep them on the one page and change the name of the page to accommodate all the appellations appropriately.Sr 76 (talk) 06:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

First of all, Aram is equivalent to Syria; Syria is what the Greeks called Aram. Some Bible translations choose one or the other; I tend to use both designations. Many Bibles also tend to sometimes use one, and then sometimes use the other, even though they are translating the same exact word (e.g., the ESV, LITV, KJV, etc). In fact, there are surprisingly few English translations which maintain some consistency here (Young’s translation does, as we would expect; as well as the BBE, ECB, ERV, God’s Word™, HCSB, etc.). The Complete Apostles Bible, which is a translation from the Greek, consistently has Syria rather than Aram (which makes sense, as Syria is the Greek word for Aram). In the original Hebrew text and Aramaic text, there is no word which can be transliterated Syria; only Aram.

User:Caliph Ibrahim Caliph el Muslemin Caliph el Muslemin — Preceding undated comment added 15:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 May 2015

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Assyrian vs. Syrian naming controversy

According to Syriac Orthodox Church (1), unlike “Assyrianism”, the Aramaean-Syriac identity is an outcome of a living civilization that is represented by people with an identity, culture and active spoken language. Whereas “Assyrianism” artifically emerged in 1836 in Iraq, and has no living language or other cultural artefacts.(2)

It must be noted that already in 1871 the renown Prof. Th. Nöldeke(3) asserted that the only correct name for the Syriac people and their language/culture is ‘Aramean/Aramaic’. For ‘Syria(ns)’ is indeed, as Nöldeke pointed out, originally a Greek loanword that denotes the Aramaic name ‘Aram(eans)’. The significance of the Aramean people to the world was noted by who stated “The Greeks and Romans knew the Near East mainly through the Arameans, for it was they who united and canalized the sources of its culture, bringing together Babylonian, Persian and Hebrew elements and transmitting them to Christianity, and with Christianity to the West. From the West, at a later date, the Arameans were to bring to the East Greek culture, especially philosophy, which became known to the Arabs through the medium of Aramaic.”(4)

1. http://www.adiyamanmetropolitligi.org/default.asp

2. http://www.suryaniler.com/suryani-tarihi.asp?id=31

3. T. Nöldeke, “Die Namen der aramäischen Nation und Sprache,” in Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenländischen Gesellschaft 25 (1871), p. 131: “Von den Namen dieser Nation und ihrer Sprache ist im Grunde der ursprüngliche ‘aramäisch’ auch der einzige, der noch für den Gebrauch der heutigen Wissenschaft streng passt.” English translation: “Regarding the name of this nation and its language is the original ‘Aramean’ in essence also the only one , that for the employment of the present-day scholarship as yet strongly fits.”

4 S. Moscati, Ancient Semitic Civilizations (New York, 1957), p. 179.

Yamansert (talk) 11:52, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

 Not done, obviously tendentious and based on poor sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:03, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Warning: Rules for this page

Re-posting this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:34, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

This article has been a cesspit of some of the most ridiculous ethnic tendentious editing for years and years, from all sides of this sorry mess of an ideological conflict. This needs to stop. I will therefore be applying a new set of administrative rules here, with a zero tolerance approach to tendentious editing:

1. Any editor making substantial content changes in the article that have the potential of being contentious, without discussing and explaining them on the talkpage beforehand, will be blocked.
2. Any editor reverting another editor without explaining the need for the revert on the talkpage beforehand (with the exception of cases of plain and obvious vandalism), will be blocked.
3. Any editor calling another's edits "vandalism" when they are not will be blocked.
4. Any editor who makes edits in the article that are obviously aimed at giving preferential treatment to one of the ideological parties or terminological preferences involved (pro-"Assyrian", pro-"Aramaean" etc.) or at bolstering up historical claims associated with such preferences, will be blocked.
5. Any editor misusing the talkpage for any form of argument about which of these ideological positions is "correct" or about his own opinions regarding their ethnic identity, will be blocked. The only thing everybody is expected to use the talkpage for is to discuss how this group and its history are described in high-quality, neutral reliable sources, and how the article should be changed so that it reflects those sources.

Please pay special attention to this last point, as pretty much everybody has been abusing the talkpages for those kind of arguments in the past.

Any such blocks will be imposed immediately, without further individual warnings, for periods no shorter than two weeks on a first offence, and regardless of whether an editor is experienced or new. You have been warned.

That said, the article clearly needs to change, as it is currently quite obviously written from a tendentious perspective. To get the ball rolling, I will myself make a start by entirely removing the "Assyrian continuity" section, which appears to be one of the most tendentious bits and whose sourcing is abysmal. This is a somewhat uncommon thing for an administrator to do, but given the special history of this article and the long-term well-documented inability of its habitual editors to maintain a constructive and encyclopedic editing debate on this topic, I believe it is justified and will not change my status as an uninvolved and neutral administrator. (Which means I also reserve the right to block editors should they reinsert it, as I would consider such an edit a clear violation of principle 4 above. Material about the idea of an "Assyrian continuity" may ultimately be reincluded, if and when the overall NPOV profile of the article has been fixed and a policy-based WP:CONSENSUS for the appropriateness of such material has been established; not earlier.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:30, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

@Future Perfect at Sunrise: Can I get an explanation of why the section "Legends Mythology used as historical evidence to promote notions of Assyrian Continuity" was collapsed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Assyrian_people#Legends.2FMythology_used_as_historical_evidence_to_promote_notions_of_Assyrian_Continuity

The explanation given does not make any sense...."another thread veering off into exchange of personal ideological talking points." it could not of possible been the case, since there was only my single post in the section. It could not have been an "exchange" nor "veering off", and the rest of the edit was in complete compliance with the Rules.

Sr 76 (talk) 13:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Bilingual Dictionary Definitions of the words Syriac and Assyrian

Dictionary definitions of the Term Suryoyo (ܣܘܪܝܐ / ܣܘܪܝܝܐ)

S.J Louis Costaz, Dictionnaire Syriaque-Francis, Syriac-English Dictionary:
Suryoyo/Suroyo (ܣܘܪܝܐ / ܣܘܪܝܝܐ) Syrien, Syriaque , Syrian, Syriac

D.D.J Hastings, Dictionary of the Bible:
Syria/ Syrians – See Aram, Arameans.

R. Payne Smith, A Compendious Syriac Dictionary
ܣܘܪܝܝܐ (Suryoyo) a) Syrian, Palestinian, Chaldeans i.e. ancient Syrians. b) Syriac.

Margoliouth Dictionary:
ܣܘܪܝܝܐ: a) a Syrian Palestinian b) Syriac, the Syriac version

Zitoun, Bukhro English Syriac Dictionary:
Syriac (ܣܘܪܝܐ / ܣܘܪܝܝܐ) Suryoyo, Syrian (ܣܘܪܝܐ / ܣܘܪܝܝܐ) Suryoyo

Eugine Manna Syriac Arabic Dictionary:
ܣܘܪܝܝܐ (Suryoyo): Suryani Arami (Syriac Aramean)

Dictionary definitions of the Term Ashuroyo (ܐܬܘܪܝܐ)

Zitoun, Bukhro English Syriac Dictionary:
Assyrian (ܐܬܘܪܝܐ) Othuroyo

Margoliouth Dictionary:
ܐܬܘܪܝܐ (Othur) Assyrians
ܐܬܘܪܝ (Othur) Region of Assyria
ܐܬܘܪܝܘܬܐ (Othuroyotho) Assyrianism

Sr 76 (talk) 06:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit Request on 25 June 2015

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

•  Not done Please note that no renaming of this article is going to happen without a formal WP:RM process and a clear consensus based on valid reliable sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:14, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Resolving the long running issue of edit-warring and disputes and references and the page content will be consistent the academic consensus.

Solution
Change the name of the article to the following:
"Syriac People (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans)"

This will page will refer to the common Christian period leaving all political POVs ambiguous from their ancient namesakes. Leaving the "Arameans" page, "Assyrians" page and "Chaldeans" page to refer to the ancient peoples. None of these groups can deny their Syriac identity, if they did they would need to forgo 2000 years of heritage.

The page should reflect on the common name (Syriac) that is not contentious, but then refer and explain the 3 current politically-national designations that all happen to be labeled based on the ancient names.

Currently the page name Assyrian is not only disputed but is the reflection of the ONE political ideal. That leads to offence and disputes and to put it simply it is historically incorrect. Please see the below link of what the name Suryoyo actually translates to in the European languages:
https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Assyrian_people#Bilingual_Dictionary_Definitions_of_the_words_Syriac_and_Assyrian

Time line of existing appellations

Ancient Period: ancient names regardless of historical and political persuasion are: Arameans/Assyrians/Chaldeans
Christian Period: Syriac
Modern Period:
1600s Vatican give the break-away group from the Nestorians the title "Chaldeans" as a religious designation. (They continue to called themselves Suraya - Syriac)
1860s introduction of the name Assyrian (They continue to called themselves Suraya - Syriac)
1950s regenesis of the name Aramean as a means to combat Assyrianism, the name Aramean was mainly considered a Synonym for many Syriac scholars (They continue to called themselves Suryoyo - Syriac)

Reasoning
The name Syriac (Suryoyo) is accepted by all the Arameans, Assyrians and Chaldeans.
All Christian Churches from the near east trace their origins to Syriac tradition including the Maronites (how can people that far west be Assyrian's?), all have a Syriac Aramaic liturgy.

Syriac avoids the complex historical issues and the problem of people promoting their own political ideologies. Since every ideology does not deny the Syriac identity. What an individual considers his ancient ancestors becomes irrelevant, since the term Syriac only came to be used by the Syriacs themselves during the Christian period. Naming the page Syriac People (Arameans/Assyrians/Chaldeans) causes little historical contention. This also makes finding sources and references for the page very simple and compliant with the academic consensus.

Right now, none of the page has any valid sources, because Assyrian history since the fall of Ninveh in 615BC (from the perspective of the modern-Assyrians) was simply made up by the modern-Assyrians that got their name in the 19th cenurty.

Calling the page "Syriac People (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans)" is verifiable, Non Original research and Neural view point.

Calling the page "Assyrian People" falls short on all fronts is NOT-verifiable, NOT-Non Original research and NOT-Neural view point. All violations of the Misplaced Pages naming protocols

Changing the name to "Syriac People (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans)" would comply with the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Deciding_on_an_article_title
Recognizability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize.
Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English.
Precision – The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects.
Conciseness – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles.

Current Ambiguity.
The page being called Assyrian people does not distinguish between the modern-Assyrians and the ancient-Assyrians, naturally this happens to be the ideological agenda of the modern-Assyrians.

The current academic consensus considers the modern-Assyrian identity to be introduced by Western Missionaries during the 19th century A.D and any ancestral connection between the two, to be "hog wash".
The widely criticized Simon Parpola is the "only academic" that supports the claims of the modern-Assyrian's ancestry, please see the following sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Assyrian_people/Archive_14#Origin.27s_of_today.27s_Assyrian_Identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Assyrian_people/Archive_14#Reference_-_Simon_Parpola

The Synonymity issue becomes a void argument.

Weather synonymity of the word Syriac is with Aramean (https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Assyrian_people#Syrian.2FSyriac_synonyms_with_Aramean) or the word Syriac is Synonymous with Assyrian, with my proposal either answer becomes irrelevant. What do i mean by this:

If the Assyrians are correct, and word Syriac means Assyrian then the why would they object to the page being called Syriac People instead of Assyrian people? Any objection is politically driven.
If the Arameans are correct, and word Syriac means Aramean then the why would they object to the page being called Syriac People instead of Aramean people? Any objection is politically driven.

By doing this Wiki-Admin can easily identify ideological and political POVs being inserted into Misplaced Pages pages.

The St Ephram the Syrian example
St Ephram called the Assyrians "Filth".
He also refered to "our nation Aram-Nahrin".
His contenporaries called him "Aramean" and "the crown of the Arameans"

It is impossible to look up any refence that refers to St Ephram as an Assyrian and yet St Ephriam the Syrian is displayed on the Assyrian People page as an Assyrian. The ONLY way St Ephriam can be an Assyrian is to accomodate a political POV of the modern-Assyrians....that is: The current page.

Consistency with Academic Sources
Misplaced Pages has become inconsistent with the academic sources. Right now looking at Wikipeadia would send someone in a direction of complete confusion. Even the further reading section of the page, does not match the content of the page, the Saint Ephriam example above is a good example of this.

Sr 76 (talk) 09:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

I prefer Aramean because official translations translate the name Aram as Syrian (Syriac), but it is better to use the name Syriac because the two groups of Assyrians and Syriacs always make quarrel. Syriac sits between the two, and both use that name to identify themselves.

Caliph el Muslemin 13:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC) Caliph el Muslemin 13:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caliph Ibrahim (talk • contribs)

Changing the name to "Syriac people (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans)" (Or simply Syriac people) would be a good choice or may be also the name "Syriac Christians (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans)" (Or simply Syriac Christians) would be a good choice for an umbrella term in order to reflect their affiliation to the Syriac Christianity, and leave the pages for each group Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans separate without overlapping and putting together one group within another group's page. MaronitePride (talk) 22:56, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback @MaronitePride:, the separate pages did exist at one point: "Syriac People", "Assyrian People" and "Chaldean People". But the page Syriac People was removed, because of concerns of a content fork. Leaving just the "Assyrian People" page, which is why i put my proposal in the way that it is. @Future Perfect at Sunrise: As per the rules of the page all significant changes much be discusses on the Talk page, which is what I have done. Changing the name to "Syriac people (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans)" is a significant change, so I am free to make the change.Sr 76 (talk) 01:39, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I think Syriac People would be the most appropriate, rather than Syriac Christians as that is also used to refer to the St. Thomas Christians of Kerala and thus would incorporate non-Syriac people. To have the primary identities in the title is not necessary, I feel, as that can be covered in the article itself. To work with the existing category framework, Syriac people should include the Aramean and Assyrian people categories. The Assyrian/Syriac category should be deleted. Mugsalot (talk) 11:57, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The best choice would be "Assyrian/Syriac people" as it reflects the position of all our leading movements (Assyrian and Syriac nationalists) and also the churches that we're one people. Then in the same page you can add sub categories or redirect to pages for each church denominations (Syriacs Orthodox/Catholics, Assyrian/Nestorians, Chaldeans), just like for the French people who have a page for each people (Bretons, Catalans, Corsicans, Basques...) who are part of the French nation. More over "Syriac people" alone should not be used as it's not as popular as the Assyrian term: you can see by yourself in Google Trends which collect data from 2004. We should remember that the most popular term in the language of the page should be used. "Syriac Christians" also should not be used as it can include Indians Christians and Maronites who don't speak our language, don't share our history and are different ethnically. 'AynHaylo (talk) 21:20, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Mugsalot and also MaronitePride are correct that the umbrella term Syriac people (with or without specification for Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans) would be the most appropriate, rather than Assyrian/Syriac people, which would eliminate the Aramean people (those people that are West of the Euphrates river, who are ethnically different from the populations East of the Euphrates river as the Assyrian people (or Chaldean people). And the Assyrian/Syriac category should be deleted.

Catalans and Basques do not see themselves to belong to the French nation. Most of their populations reside within the Spanish territory and even there they do not identify as Spanish people (more specifically they do not identify as Castilian Spanish people). Therefore, it is not an appropriate example for the issue here. Sprayitchyo (talk) 22:55, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

@Sprayitchyo In an ideal world I too would prefer "Syriac People". But as @AynHaylo has demonstrated there will always be people that REFER to (hopefully not impose) nation/political agendas and this is understandable since the page refers to these movements in its contents. By grouping "Syriac People (Arameans/Assyrians/Chaldeans)" together in the title in the way that i have suggested, it sends a direct statement to all editors that the labels are all considered equal on the page and the appellation Syriac is unique in it's lack of contention and historical position.

It demonstrates to readers and new editors on the page, that a high level of mutual respect between all these groups is establish on the page and that Misplaced Pages is not here to propagate people's political biases. By calling the page "Syriac People" it leaves a small opening in editor's thinking that they can manipulate the page, by calling it "Syriac People (Arameans/Assyrians/Chaldeans)", it leaves no doubt in people's minds as to what the content is and how these groups are going to be dealt with on the page. Please do not refer to separation of Arameans or Chaldeans based on historical grounds in this section, because the discussion will just snowball into something else....especially without sources. I am trying to put an end to bickering about this issue, at least on Misplaced Pages.

For example based on what you have written, "Syriac People" would leave room for people to take issue if there was any form of Aramean content on the page and remove it...starting an editing-war. "Syriac People (Arameans/Assyrians/Chaldeans)" defines the content much better and prevents these problems.

Sr 76 (talk) 06:09, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I think you guys don't understand something: The people of the Syriac Orthodox/Catholic Churches, Church of the East and Chaldean Catholics have always seen themselves as one people. From the time of the Kingdom of Edessa, the emergence of Nsibin, Omid (Dyarbakir), Urmia, Rish'Ayno, Mardin, Midyat, the Nineveh plains to the Seyfo and the awaking of nationalism and armed groups (Battaillon Assyro-Chaldéens in Gozarto, The army led by Agha petrus (though mostly composed of Chaldeans and Nestorians)) and today the MFS and GPU in Syria, the NPU and the NPF, who was and are always composed of Nestorians, Chaldeans and Syriacs orthodox/catholics. Note also that all of them speak a dialect of eastern Aramaic.

So this page is for this people and not for Maronites or others people "West of Euphrates", Greek orthodox/Catholics from Syria, Lebanon, Israel who today a very little minority of them identify as Aramean, and this started just 10-20 years ago for them (though for Maronites it's different).

By putting "Assyrian/Syriac people" it refers to the Assyrian nationalim (present in all 3 church), the Syriac/Aramean nationalism of the Syriac orthodox Church and Chaldean Church (recent words of Mar louis sako and before him Mar Emmanuel III Delly). It also refers to Syriac Christianity and it uses the most used word in the English language for this people.

And I do think that the example of the French nation is good, if you don't count Basques (though a good percentage of them see themselves as part of the French nation) you still have a page for Bretons, Corsicans and Catalans.'AynHaylo (talk) 10:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

@AynHaylo what you are suggesting gives primacy to the word Assyrian over Chaldean and Aramean and puts it on par with the word Syriac. For that reason it will not resolve any of the issues on Misplaced Pages. Besides these supposed facts that you have presented are not sourced and don't belong in this section. Sr 76 (talk) 13:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

@AynHaylo Assyrian POV editing also includes to replace the terms Aramean or Syriac-Aramean, especially when it comes to Mesopotamian Syriac Christian related topics, with Syriac and then claiming in the article or the main article (Assyrian people: this is where Syriac people is currently redirected to) that the term Syriac ultimately and only means Assyrian to avoid any synonymity or ethnic connection of modern Mesopotamian Syriac Christians with Arameans. Nice try, AynHaylo and your other comments aren't even better regarding the defintion of ethnic identity/nation, which is obviously the idea of Assyrian nationalism. An ethnicity or ethnic group can be defined by origin, language, religion, culture, history etc. up to a certain point where individuals form a cohesion (See Israeli Maronites and Syriac-Orthodox Christians). You're trying to separate Mesopotamian Syriac-Arameans from other Syriac Christians in the Middle East by defining the idea of Assyrian nationalism, e.g. Eastern Aramaic. Should I point out that even within Eastern Aramaic the so called Aramaic dialects are rather languages like Spanish and Italian or Dutch and German. Don't tell me that you can easily communicate in Turoyo/Suryoyo with a Chaldean Neo-Aramaic or Assyrian Neo-Aramaic speaker. And what about the Kha b-Nisan (Assyrian New Year), which is not celebrated by the Western Suryoye (maybe except for those who call themselves Assyrian)? I could give more examples to make the Syriac Christians from Mesopotamia different nations to show your own behaviour. "The people of the Syriac Orthodox/Catholic Churches, Church of the East and Chaldean Catholics have always seen themselves as one people" You probably speak for yourself, because my family is from northeastern Syria, they and the others have always referred the Chaldeans and Assyrians (Assyrian Church of the East members) as distinct nations which are "simliar to us". But what I want to say is that this whole ethnicity/identity stuff about the Syriac Christians (Maronites, Melkites, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Syriacs) in the Middle East is a highly sensitive and complex subject in general and the best way is to keep it as neutral as possible. --Suryoyo124 (talk) 15:13, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

These supposed facts ? Just to be clear: Greek Orthodox/Catholics and Maronites just have no idea of what is Nsibin, Edessa, the Seyfo etc. They have never fought with our people and this is a fact. Today the MFS is composed of Syriac orthodox and Assyrians Church of the East, they fought side by side with the Khabour guards and Tell Tamer guards. It's the same for Sutoro and Sootoro. The GPU (Gozarto protection forces) is also a mixed of Syriac Orthodox and Assyrians Church of the East. In Iraq the NPF (Nineveh protection forces) and the NPU (Nineveh protection units) are composed of Syriac Catholics/Chaldeans/Church of the East. So this a fact that other middle east Christians are not a part of our people and this is a reality. None of them are fighting with us. When Mor Aphrem Barsoum went to the league of nations he spoke for the 3 sects and not for Greek Orthodox/Catholics and Maronites. In Syria and Lebanon, is the Syriac union party composed of Greek Orthodox/Catholic or Maronites ? I don't think so and yet Maronites people and politicians do not see us as part of their people if so Maronites seats in the Lebanese parliament would be renamed Syriac/Aramean seats and would include Greek Orthodox/Catholics etc.

@Suryoyo124 My definition of ethnic of identity/ nation is based on history from Christianity to today and you can't ignore that the 20th century has been led by Assyrian nationalism, especially in the beginning.

What you are trying to do is like including Irish people into the English people. you are driven by an Aramaic agenda who desperately wants to include Greek Orthodox/Catholics and Maronites with our people but the reality has shown us that this peoples considers themselves to be Arabs Christians for the vast majority and they are not a part of our history. It's even difficult to include Greek Orthodox/Catholics into Syriac Christianity and yet you want to include them with us ? You can't ignore the fact that Greek Orthodox/Catholics and Maronites don't care about Nsibin, Edessa, Seyfo and our language.

My proposition gives primacy to the most used term in the English language by most media and people and it shows that we are part of Syriac Christianity. And it let you develop every sect into sub categories or pages so it is definitely a solution. I want to be clear that this pages if for this people and not for others people.

The position of Sr 76 is good but it forget that in English it's Assyrian that is the most used and will definitely result in editing and complaints though it is not even sure for my proposition but I believe it will not end into editing wars.'AynHaylo (talk) 16:26, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

In Germany, the common name for Suryoye/Suraye is 'Aramäer' (Arameans) yet those Suryoye/Suraye who call themselves Assyrians in Germany reject this term and want to be called 'Assyrer' (Assyrians). The same deal with Suryoye/Suraye who call themselves Arameans in English-speaking countries, who don't want to be called Assyrians, but Aramean. Like I said before it's not a simple name conflict among the Suryoye/Suraye. Both groups have a total different view about their ethnic identity/nation. Therefore it would be wrong to call an Assyrian Aramean or an Aramean Assyrian. Sr 76's Ephrem the Syrian example clearly shows this issue. German Misplaced Pages fixed this problem by creating an umbrella article called "Suryoye" and ethnic-identity articles called 'Assyrer (Gegenwart)' Assyrians (present) and Arameans (Christianity) and it works. German Misplaced Pages don't have to follow a certain ideology.--Suryoyo124 (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

People: Again, everybody, stop. Stop. Stop. You are again exchanging your personal opinions about the identity and history of your people(s). This is not the place to do that. Stop it. If anybody wishes to have this article renamed, do a proper WP:RM. In that RM, the only valid type of argument will be: what terms and what distinctions are applied to these people in reputable, outside, English-speaking academic sources? Any editor sidelining these arguments again with their own opinions and their own ideologies and their own views about history will be blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:56, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

@AynHaylo, Future Perfect at Sunrise

Neutral Umbrella term/article:

• Rename the "Assyrian people" article into "Syriac people (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans)" or "Syriac people". Pre-Nationalism persons like Ephrem the Syrian are called Syriac and will be redirected to this page.

Sub-categories/articles of Syriac people (Arameans, Assyrians, Chaldeans) or Syriac people, which are basically ethnic-identity articles:

• Rename and modify Assyrian continuity, e.g. into Assyrians (Christians) about modern Assyrian nationalism. Modern Suryoye/Suraye like Rosie Malek-Yonan who see themselves as Assyrians are still called Assyrian, but it redirects to the Assyrians (Christians) article to distinguish between ancient and modern Assyrians.
• Arameans (Christians) about modern Aramean nationalism.
• Chaldeans (Christians) about modern Chaldean nationalism.

Important article:

• Name/Ethnicity conflict among modern Syriac Christians

These articles are ONLY about the pre-Christian nations:

• Assyrians
• Arameans
• Chaldeans

Suryoyo124 (talk) 18:35, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Congratulations Suryoyo124, it is the best formulated. Just go ahead with the procedure renaming of this/these article/s with the formal WP:RM process. MaronitePride (talk) 21:22, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you @Future Perfect at Sunrise:!!! The term is Syriac, easy.Sr 76 (talk) 05:36, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

@AynHaylo this is not a popularity contest in the English use of Assyrian, Aramean or Chaldean. Even if it was, you couldn't correlate the results anyway. You are offering conclusions based on your own perspective.

The key issue is anyone that visits the page will be presented with information that is not consistent with academic texts. This will create inconsistencey when people do further research. The texts that support an Assyrian identity are generally those that are published by politically bias modern-Assyrians. And so this will always create issues on Misplaced Pages because of it's liberal editing rules. Every individual must put aside his personal preferences, in the same way I don't insist on Aramean.Sr 76 (talk) 05:45, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I have create a move request, to redirect the page to Syriac people

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Assyrian_people#Requested_move_5_July_2015

Sr 76 (talk) 06:01, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Ref of previous source clean discussion for the page

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Assyrian_people/Archive_14#Identification_of_modern-Assyrian_Sources_on_the_page

Sr 76 (talk) 04:17, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 5 July 2015

It has been proposed in this section that Assyrian people be renamed and moved to Syriac people. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Assyrian people → Syriac people – Resolving the long running issue of edit-warring and disputes and references and the page content will be consistent the academic consensus Sr 76 (talk) 05:55, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Obviously I am for the move to Syriac people, everyone has the right to be identify with their heritage in a manner that is respectful and dignified. Regardless of Christian denomination, national aspirations and political allegiances......the Maronites, Assyrians, Arameans, Chaldeans, Syriac Catholics and Nestorians...etc.

The name Syriac hosts all these people in a manner that is not contentious and also happens to be the academic consensus in representing these people.Sr 76 (talk) 06:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I will warn you from the outset that this is not going to happen, and your votes will be discounted, unless you finally start doing the only thing that will turn this into a valid enterprise: start documenting current usage in reliable sources. You have not yet done anything of the sort. Arguments based on your personal perception of what the self-identification of these people is and what might or might not be contentious with them, of the kind you stated in this nomination, are worthless. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:53, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

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