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	Guy Fawkes Night is part of the Gunpowder Plot series, a featured topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.
Article milestones Date Process Result November 26, 2010 Good article nominee Listed January 28, 2011 Featured topic candidate Promoted June 9, 2011 Featured article candidate Promoted
Current status: Featured article

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A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on 11 dates. November 5, 2004, November 5, 2005, November 5, 2006, November 5, 2007, November 5, 2008, November 5, 2009, November 5, 2010, November 5, 2011, November 5, 2012, November 5, 2013, and November 5, 2014

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Archives (Index)

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Reciprocity of linking

If anyone would care to make an impartial assessment of this article as a part of Misplaced Pages a remarkable fact would quickly become apparent. Guy Fawkes Night is in fact, due to its title, the main article covering this celebration, most people interested in this celebration would head to this first. It is strange then, that the many smaller, perhaps peripheral articles (such as Gunpowder Plot in popular culture, Parkin (cake), Black peas etc.) all link to Guy Fawkes Night, but Guy Fawkes Night does not link to them. This does seem to me to break a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages, that of the ease of navigation within themes and related articles. Urselius (talk) 16:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Actually, it makes a lot of sense: there's no requirement for articles to link to every article that links to them, and such a requirement would not be workable given the number of "peripherals" potentially linked to a main article. The pop-culture article, though, is linked from the navbox. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:11, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

No requirement perhaps, but surely reciprocity of linking reflects a comprehensive main article. Otherwise it seems that things are missing, which is undesirable. Urselius (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

No, not at all: you'd expect peripheral or subarticles to link to the main article, but not the other way around. For example, consider Christmas: it makes perfect sense for a very specific article like Christmas tree plundering or Bulgarian budnik to link to the main article, but the main article can be comprehensive without doing so. For an analogy, think about countries versus cities: although city articles may link to their country, there's no way you'd expect a country article to link to every single city in the country, but that doesn't mean the country article isn't comprehensive. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

As it stands at present the reader cannot explore from this article many directly-related topics, because there are no links. This article, because of its title, is the main article for the subject. In no universe can this be a good situation. Your reasoning walks on crutches, one being exaggeration, the other a sort of Wiki-legalism. The links proposed for this page to include are as relevant to it as turkey is to Thanksgiving. Urselius (talk) 13:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• What everyone must remember is that with articles like this we're dealing with some of the most formidable intellectual giants that Misplaced Pages has ever known and ever will know. They buy books. They borrow books from the Library. And they loosely paraphrase other peoples work to create 'Featured Articles' which cannot ever then be touched in any way. Look at various 'Featured Articles', it is the same again and again, and we must bow down before the them - neh! - we must must worship them! For without their paraphrasing of other peoples work we wouldn't have this glorious collection of poorly organised topical borderline plagiarism that Misplaced Pages has today. What a triumph of their skills! </END SARCASM TAG> AnonNep (talk) 18:09, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
  • This is entirely unhelpful --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:55, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Perhaps, but it is a perceptive critique of the situation. Urselius (talk) 19:10, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

More seriously.... what does logic suggest? The history is moved to a well, um, 'History of Gunpowder Plot' article, linked back here, while 'Guy Fawkes Night' becomes the key page for history and the ongoing later traditions. AnonNep (talk) 18:17, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

No --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 18:55, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Your argument is eloquent - what other gnomic treasures have you yet to dazzle us with? Urselius (talk) 19:10, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I see from your userpage that you are an arbitrator, from your contributions here this must be in the very limited sense exemplified by Andrei Gromyko - nyet, indeed! Urselius (talk) 09:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Expresses the mastery of knowledge of the perfect argument I've come to expect from the lords of the 'Featured Article'. Speaks for itself really... AnonNep (talk) 19:15, 3 March 2015 (UT

  The first principle of Wiki editing is be nice, we are all friends here. The customs section I believe improves the article, facilitates minor link-outs, and (maybe) makes everybody happy. By all means do a featured article review as PBS suggests. Ex nihil 02:07, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:AnonNep Most of the history is not the 'History of Gunpowder Plot' it is the history of Guy Fawkes Night. As the article is less than 50K in size I see no need for separate "History of Guy Fawkes Night", I just think it needs to be expanded to include mentions of the 21st century both in England and other Commonwealth countries. If at the end of the expansion there is a need to summaries the history and have a new "History of Guy Fawkes Night" then of course that can be done, but I think the current article is a long way from that. -- PBS (talk) 02:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Somewhere back in the archives is a flabbergasting response to a suggested addition from an otherwise WP:RS source. The reply, in effect, is 'Go and write a book about it, get it published, then you can add it'. There are three options: no change, ever, or, ending the current lockdown, or, finally, separating this off. I suggested the latter because the former remains to the detriment of WP. I'd be more that happy with the middle ground. End the blockade. AnonNep (talk) 03:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

While I sympathise with your reasons for suggesting it, to create a fork for those reasons goes against the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Content forking. -- PBS (talk) 20:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for delay in responding (missed it in the mix). It would only be a POVFork (a guideline not a policy, BTW) if you think the present article represents a central position that's being 'forked' from. I'm suggesting a new key article that covers the existing forks (such as the lockdown approach on information not accepted here leaving only the the generic 'Bonfire Night'). In other words, a general article that summarises this cobwebbed Miss Havisham and the more recent Bonfire Night. Where I'm uncomfortable is the idea that the Miss Havishams should get their untouchable, if fading, wedding hall here, preserved, indefinitely. It may suit them but it does little for Misplaced Pages. AnonNep (talk) 12:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Then why not initiate the threatened FA review, and see where that leads? Eric Corbett 20:47, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It can be a very flawed process, just look at how this article was promoted in the first place. One does not enter the courtroom unprepared. Urselius (talk) 21:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

It's the only review process open to you, so it's time to either put up or shut up. Eric Corbett 21:11, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Not against PoD, I can take him up for his personal attacks on myself. As I said a case needs to be optimally constructed, this takes time. A precipitate move would be unwise. Urselius (talk) 21:19, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Just get on with it Urselius and quit with your preciousness. Cassianto 22:13, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Why should I please you? If dilatoriness displeases you and the other people strangling this article, then expect a great deal of it. In the meantime I will be critically reviewing all aspects of the article and commenting here. Incidentally, I review for scientific journals as part of the 'peer-review' process, so you may expect a thorough and critical review. Please address my comments on the relevance of the sermons - see below. Urselius (talk) 22:23, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure we're all waiting for your pearls of wisdom with bated breath. Eric Corbett 22:42, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

What ho! old bean - see two pearls below. No wait at all. Toodle-pip! Urselius (talk) 22:50, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

The two only pearls you have offered us so far are certainly not what you seem to think they are.Cassianto 18:30, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@user:Eric Corbett you wrote "It's the only review process open to you, so it's time to either put up or shut up.", however SanyGeorge (13:26, 9 March 2015) suggests that a RfC is an alternative to a featured article review. -- PBS (talk) 20:19, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

SandyG is saying no such thing, she's specifically addressing this ongoing and long-term disruption by a few cake obsessives. Whatever the result of any behavioural RfC, this would still be a featured article. Anyone who doesn't like that has only one choice, to initiate a featured article review. Eric Corbett 20:41, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

That this article is a FA is only relevant to the ongoing criticism of it for two reasons: (a) it did not meet the criteria for FA status in the FAC process, and (b) the fact of its (spurious) FA status has been cynically used by a cabal of editors (led by PoD) to block any additions that they, quite erroneously and against both common sense and scholarship, consider unsuitable. This is against Misplaced Pages's rules and basic philosophy. Please look at the banner at the top of this page "Guy Fawkes Night is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Misplaced Pages community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so." FA status does not mean that editing is no longer possible, in fact further editing of FA articles is positively encouraged. Urselius (talk) 07:48, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

@user:Eric Corbett you wrote "Whatever the result of any behavioural RfC", there is no behavioural RfC process (WP:RFC#About the conduct of another user) and has not been since the end of last year, so presumably SG was talking about an RfC on this article (WP:RFC#Request comment on articles, policies, or other non-user issues). -- PBS (talk) 09:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I think that what SandyG said is clear enough, but perhaps she'd forgotten, as had I, that the RFC/U process was shut down last December. Eric Corbett 12:29, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Urselius, the FA banner is not written in stone and extra additions to a featured article should be subject to a discussion first. As a result of that discussion, and if it's decided that the addition is of benefit to the article, the proposed addition can then be added. You chose not to discuss it and went full steam ahead and added it regardless. Only after you had been reverted did you then decide to discuss it on the talk page. When it was decided that your addition was not good enough, you then proceeded to turn the discussions sour. You should not just assume that because part of the banner says "even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so" you should just go ahead and add it. Common sense should tell you that it would be good to discuss things first. Cassianto 12:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? The only addition I have made to the article since it became contentious is the small phrase concerning the Catholic Herald - which, shortened and moved, is still there at present. I reverted a reversion of another editor's addition, but that is not the same thing at all. Urselius (talk) 10:43, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Common sense says not such thing. Being bold is common and sensible (Bold, revert, discuss). -- PBS (talk) 19:04, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Size of the celebration

From UK government online sources:

"Bonfire Night

While only 29% of adults will actually participate in an activity to celebrate Bonfire Night, held on 5 November, those who do take part are expected to spend an estimated £386 million.

Bonfire Night celebration items people are expected to buy in 2012 include:

Fireworks: 12% of adults will buy fireworks to use at home or take to a party Food and drink for parties: 12% of UK adults will either attend or host a party Attending organised displays: 29% of adults expect to attend an organised fireworks display

Not everyone is enthusiastic, however, with 67% of adults saying that fireworks “should only be let off at properly organised displays”.

This sort of information has to be included in any encyclopaedic account of Guy Fawkes Night. Please note the inclusion of "food and drink" - an important aspect of the celebration as highlighted by the UK government no less. Urselius (talk) 09:06, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Should there be a featured article review?

Perhaps the first step could be a featured article review to bring up the known shortcomings of this article. -- PBS (talk) 22:46, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

What is being reviewed is an interesting question - is this a history of the Gunpowder Plot, a history of Guy Fawkes night, a key article that links on to the others, or a bit of all? AnonNep (talk) 03:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Featured article criteria and the areas where this featured article fails. The chief one ins "1.b comprehensive". But that leads to all sorts of other ones in that list (such as "2.a"). At the time this was promoted to FA status, "1.e stability" was not met (see Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Guy Fawkes Night/archive1. That was ignored and stability is still an issue as can be seen in the edit history of the last 24 hours. -- PBS (talk) 10:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes there should be a review. The history of this talk page indicates that what little stability the article has, is merely the result of potential editors being 'warned off' from even attempting to edit by an entrenched cabal. From what I gleaned from the original FA review, the principal assessor seemed to ignore many cogent points and had the erroneous view that objections to content, or lack of content, could only be based on objections to sources. Urselius (talk) 10:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This article is perfectly stable, it's just a few cake-obsessed editors who think otherwise. Is this in an attempt to assert your own POV? Cassianto 11:41, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have been involved in moderating a good deal of, mostly nationalistic, POV peddling. Please look at the history of the Basil I article, where you will see the correct method of coping with this. Armenian nationalists have added material supporting an Armenian origin for the Byzantine emperor, did I do as PoD always does - revert with an added insulting comment? No, I let anything with a decent reference stand and I merely add something moderating it from an equally good reference. This is called "not owning an article" - something yourself and PoD seem incapable of. Urselius (talk) 12:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Like your friend PoD you quickly reach the level of crass insult. Have a look at a really stable FA, such as Charles II of England whose talkpage has 2 archives, this travesty's talkpage has 9 archives! A lot of people obviously have issues with it. The instability of the page is a self-evident and established fact. Go back and try to come up with more logical arguments. Urselius (talk) 11:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Cassianto's comment is an extraordinary statement which should be withdrawn. Of course the article is "stable", when any substantive (and referenced) changes to the article are immediately reverted by its custodian(s). The long-standing disputes over the content of this article should never have allowed it to become a FA in the first place. Many of us have, I am sure, given up on the article, in view of the needless acrimony on this talk page. Unfortunately, all the evidence is that an FA review is utterly pointless if the same editors are going to be involved. But, an independent review, to assess whether it actually meets the needs of readers looking for a comprehensive overview of the celebration, is long overdue. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:53, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

If it wasn't for the "custodians" then this article would be filled with factoids and deteriorate beyond all recognition. Also, you don't need to ping me I have watch listed it. Cassianto 12:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

If the "owners of this article" relaxed their control a little they would get input from many experienced and talented editors, which would produce an article that truly reflected the actuality of an ongoing folk-celebration. As it stands now it is unrepresentative, turgid and biased. Urselius (talk) 12:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

For what its worth I've added Bonfire Night to the 'See Also' of the present Gunpowder Plot template. AnonNep (talk) 12:47, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thankfully Urselius your opinion counts for nothing. Cassianto 13:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Then your opinion and that of other "PoD-U-Likes" is equally nugatory. Misplaced Pages is a co-operative venture where all opinions, if they are reasonable, count equally. You seem not to understand this, and it is simple enough. Urselius (talk) 13:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Cassianto, please try and be civil when replying to other editors. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 16:23, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll try sure, but in light of the idiocy that is currently going on here, I can't make any promises. Cassianto 18:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:Cassianto: The article has not been stable for years as is evident from the talk pages and the edit history as demonstrated over the last 48 hours. I notice that on your user page until recently you said you live in Essex and that "I often take part in peer reviews and frequently review at FAC." This article is titled "Guy Fawkes Night" it is not titled "history of Guy Fawkes Night" do you think that a featured article review would end with a consensus that this article adequately covers the subject? For example do you think that an American or Australian would know if bonfire night is still widely celebrated in England? Do you know if the statement in the lead "Halloween, has lately increased in popularity, and according to some writers, may threaten the continued observance of 5 November." is true for New Zealand? -- PBS (talk) 20:23, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what relevance my residence has to do with this article, or the fact that I take part in reviews? I would expect to find "History" of Guy Fawkes Night within the first sub-section of THIS article and not, like you incorrectly say, in a separate article. For the same reason as to why I would think it stupid to have "Remeberence Day" separate to "History of Remeberence Day". Cassianto 18:52, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The relevancy of your residency is your knowledge of the subject that you would probably not have if you came from Georgia. I am sorry if my words were not clear, but I did not say that the history was in a separate article, instead I emphasised what the title was. The question I asked (given you knowledge of the subject outside of the article and you knowledge of reviews), was would a featured article review of this article be likely to end with a consensus that this article adequately covers the subject? I then asked two subsidiary questions. I look forward to you answers. -- PBS (talk) 21:05, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

There's only one way to find out and that is to take it to FAR if you wish. However, I would embrace Sandy's comments above and think very carefully before you do. Cassianto 21:12, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

How is a Featured Article review instigated? It is long overdue here. Urselius (talk) 13:29, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Just go to WP:FAR and follow the instructions you'll find there. Eric Corbett 13:32, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I saw this little spat at Bencherlite's talk ... Urselius, you should be aware that FAR is not dispute resolution. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:12, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

I am aware of that. There are genuine problems with this article that a number of editors, administrators among them, have commented upon. It is on this basis that any FA review would be instigated. I am considering taking action against PoD's unwarranted personal attacks on myself, though this is an entirely separate matter procedurally. Urselius (talk) 08:45, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:SandyGeorgia do you consider yourself neutral regarding whether this article is or is not a FA? Two central issues raised from the list of FA criteria when this article was was promoted were stability and comprehensiveness. Neither of these criteria were met at the time or have ever been met since. Why do you think that this article given FA status when those two issues were not addressed? Recently you asked for an example of high-quality has been "misunderstood, mis-applied, or 'used as a bludgeon'" see Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Guy Fawkes Night/archive1. -- PBS (talk) 11:18, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I do consider myself neutral: the article was promoted by Karanacs. The derailed and personalized discussion on the FAC indicates precisely why I am reminding here that FAR is not dispute resolution: should the same editors who disrupted the FAC without bringing actionable issues relative to the criteria raise a FAR without (again) addressing actionable items and instead resorting to personalization, the result will not be productive. FAR is not dispute resolution. The FAC was derailed by editors bringing personal matters and without focusing on What is a featured article; some of the same editors are again doing the same here. And no, this is not an example of the issue you raised at WIAFA talk; this was and is an example of editors not applying the criteria and personalizing a discussion. Please initiate an RFC for that purpose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:26, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

You were the person asserting that the only objection to a FA candidate was objection to its sources. I could write an impeccably sourced article on the American celebration of Thanksgiving and completely omit any mention of turkey-eating, would such an article be complete? Would such an article be worthy of FA status? Additionally, do you approve of editors who block the addition of well-sourced material to certain articles because they have their own agendas and or prejudices? Urselius (talk) 14:15, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Urselius, you seem to have a habit of taking discussions off-topic. Please review WP:WIAFA. I would never say "that the only objection to a FA candidate was objection to its sources". I have no opinion one way or another on this article: I do have an opinion on editors who don't appropriately engage FAC, FAR and WIAFA. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:34, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I quote your good self Sandy, taken directly from the record of the FAC: "...there is no point in trying to determine what direction an article should take without first examining what is supported by sources. As of now, there are no talk page archives, but I find no evidence anywhere that anyone objecting to the article has done it based on sources. Anything short of that has no place here at FAC; please keep disruption out of the FAC and focus on sources." Urselius (talk) 15:05, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@user:SandyGeorgia you wrote above "The FAC was derailed by editors bringing personal matters and without focusing on What is a featured article; some of the same editors are again doing the same here". In which way was the FAC derailed? What do you think were the personal matters which were raised and which editors are doing the same here? -- PBS (talk) 18:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I just reread the FAC page, the article, and what's currently on this talk page (didn't go through the archives) to refresh my memory. Has anything changed since the article was promoted? It looks like Bonfire Night was created as an article and kept rather than redirected/merged here. (Nb: I think it's poor practice to include a link to another article in the "also known as" line of the lead. It would be much more appropriate to include a sentence later in the lead and in the body of the article stating that modern celebrations are often known more as Bonfire Night, with the link there). Have any new high-quality sources been published that dispute what's in the article? If not much has changed in terms of scholarship and article content, then it is highly unlikely that an FAR would change the status quo. It's not a place to rehash previous arguments. Karanacs (talk) 14:51, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The sources are not the problem, please address the real problem, which is lack of comprehensiveness. Please do not hold up the shibboleth of "sources", it is entirely irrelevant! Of course there are perfectly reliable sources available to use to fill in the huge gaps in the present article's comprehensiveness. I have shown one below. It is from a specialist journal and as such has higher credibility than the works of Antonia Fraser, much quoted in the present article. Antonia Fraser is a historian but she is also a populist historical biographer, her works cannot be held to be more academically acceptable than material from a specialist journal. Urselius (talk) 08:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

"Have any new high-quality sources been published that dispute what's in the article?" - to my knowledge, no. This article was written to reflect the coverage offered by several expert authors. I have repeatedly asked any editors who object to this structure to find other, expert sources that place as much emphasis on the modern celebration as the existing authors place on its history. To date, not one of those editors has done this. They have searched the internet and found the usual odds and ends, but nothing that suggests that Cressy, Fraser or Sharpe have been remiss in their treatment of 5 November. It remains my view therefore that the items these editors would like included are trivial by nature, and that triviality has no place in any article on Misplaced Pages. Parrot of Doom 18:18, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd just like to add that User:AnonNep has found a new source, published in 2013, that I was unaware of. This at least explains the event's relevance in foreign countries using a proper context, so I may well buy this book to see what I can learn from it. Parrot of Doom 17:13, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

High quality material was available at the time of the FAC, it just did not fit in with your POV peddling. Fraser is a populist historical biographer, not an academic, she has never held an academic post. She also spelled the name of a relative of mine wrongly in one of her books! Urselius (talk) 08:10, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

The problem is not the sources used, it has never been the problem. The problem is that the article as it stands in incomplete. It does not cover recent and modern practices to any appreciable extent. This would in itself not be a particular problem except that some editors, including PoD, will not allow anyone to add material to the article to remedy this deficit. There are many fine and reputable published sources available, I have a number on my computer right now, but I cannot use them because anything I add to the article will be reverted. This is the problem not what sources were used to write what is here already - what is here already is just not sufficient for an encyclopaedic treatment of the subject. Urselius (talk) 15:16, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

@user:Karanacs as a non-Brit I think that the content of the current article may have confused you. The article is titled "Guy Fawkes Night" under the provisions of WP:AT section WP:UCRN "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." The most common name for "Guy Fawkes Night" in England is "Bonfire Night" (see these simple global searches but not of reliable sources -- but they do show it is one event with two common names) but as that name is also used for other events in other English speaking countries it is perfectly acceptable to choose "Guy Fawkes Night" as an alternative and at the time of the FAC process (initiated on 1 May 2011 and promoted by you on 9 June 2011) the page Bonfire Night was a disambiguation page. The disambiguation page was moved by Nikkimaria unilaterally and without prior discussion on 7 July 2011‎ from "Bonfire night" to Bonfire Night (disambiguation) (and IMO that move needs to be reverted). At the time you promoted this article not one of the issues over the criteria I had raised at the FAC had been discussed in the FAC process. The chief one was and is "1.b comprehensive". But that leads to all sorts of other ones in that list (such as "2.a"). Also at the time this was promoted to FA status "1.e stability" was an issue, (one editor had repeatedly breached the 3RR rule over the preceding months), why did you ignore that criteria? -- PBS (talk) 18:17, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm a pretty well-read non-Brit :) I cannot comment on my thought process of almost 4 years ago (I've slept since then!), but I will say that there appeared to be consensus at FAC that the article was comprehensive. The stability criteria is usually invoked when the article is massively changing from the beginning of the FAC nomination to the end (text being added or removed). The appearance of the article did not change much during this particular FAC nomination. The article today also reflects what it was when originally promoted. That tells me it has been pretty stable. I suspect there are compromises that could take place here to partially satisfy both parties (leave out the trivia, add a line about where 5 Nov is still celebrated with Bonfires, and call it day), but I am have not read the sources. I've been involved in my own set of disputes on topics like this, and I know it's difficult to provide the correct balance. Good luck, gentlemen! Karanacs (talk) 18:48, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The issue is that some people think the narrative constructed by those experts who do know something about this topic, whose research I have summarised here, is incorrect. They think their own views are more important than the experts and they will not listen to reason. I have been defending this article against this idiocy for years. Parrot of Doom 22:44, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

No Parrot, you are being completely disingenuous here. 'People' do not want to rewrite the sections of the article concerning the early history of the celebration - except in a very minor way to improve its structure for readability. What 'people' want to do, me included, is to incorporate more material on recent and modern aspects of the celebration, with appropriate citations to reputable sources. You repeatedly block and revert such additions for specious and entirely personal reasons. Any user or administrator can look at my record of article creation and editing and see that I am scrupulous in the use of citations - I'm a professional scientist and rigorous citation of sources is in my bloodstream. Do I want to swamp this article with trivia? Obviously not. However, this article is not about brain surgery or the decoding of Linear B, it is about a folk celebration, and as such certain things that are central to it as a folk celebration are less than entirely po-faced and serious. This is in the nature of the subject of the article, it cannot be avoided. Urselius (talk) 08:21, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Surely, if previous arguments were cogent but ignored, then they still constitute a perfectly legitimate basis for re-appraisal. Nothing on Misplaced Pages is written in stone - that's one of its virtues. Urselius (talk) 14:59, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Urselius, Karanacs just gave you a helpful list of suggestions and questions, none of which you addressed. I'm unwatching. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:03, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

The problem with the suggestion is that the terms 'Guy Fawkes Night' and 'Bonfire Night' are used entirely interchangeably. To foist on them a distinction 'Guy Fawkes Night' is a historical celebration and 'Bonfire Night' is a modern celebration would just be wrong. Misplaced Pages has to faithfully reflect reality not impose an artificial construct on reality. Urselius (talk) 15:09, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is an account from Folklore and Myth Author(s): H. R. Ellis Davidson, Folklore,Vol. 87, No. 2 (1976), pp. 131-145Published Taylor & Francis, Ltd.

Guys and effigies are burnt, bonfires and fireworks cause a certain amount of damage and injury every year, and special local customs recorded within fairly recent times include bell-ringing, shooting parties, the eating of special goodies like parkin, gingerbread and toffee, the burning of tar-barrels, the carrying round of effigies or of live men with blackened faces, as well as processions with masks, disguises and music. Throughout the nineteenth century, the evening of 5 November was a time of licensed hooliganism in many places. At Guildford, for instance, the 'guys' were not effigies but rioters, who rushed about in disguise, with torches and bludgeons, breaking down fences and gates for the bonfires: as George Oldcastle described them in 1904, "Their cry will never be forgotten by anyone whoever heard it. It was a thrilling, piercing note of peculiar intensity and was a warning for all peaceable citizens to be on their guard".

This is interesting and useful material and it includes reference to Parkin! Why should reputable and fully published material like this not be allowed to be used within the article? I really do not understand the blockade on such material. Urselius (talk) 15:42, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Has it ever occurred to you Urselius that the reason your edits are being reverted are because they are little more than trivia and are not worthy of being included in a featured article? Cassianto 18:27, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Has it ever occurred to you, Cassianto, that you are helping to enforce a ban on open editing of an article, that you are aiding and abetting the ownership of an article in direct contradiction to basic Misplaced Pages rules and ethics? Urselius (talk) 08:38, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Considering that this article is about a folk celebration, and not the philosophy of Aristotle or particle physics, I would think that anyone would consider that relevant matter covered in an academic journal called "Folklore" would be appropriate. Incidentally, Antonia Fraser, who is quoted within the article as if she was a walking oracle, works at the intersection of academic and populist writing. As such anything from a specialist journal has more academic "clout" than her material. Urselius (talk) 07:59, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

GlandGlad you are back Cassianto. Did you notice that I posed you a question a higher up the page? I look forward to your answer. -- PBS (talk) 18:37, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

"Gland" to be back also PBS. Cassianto 18:43, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out my typing mistake and thank you for responding to my question (I have added a supplemental). -- PBS (talk) 21:05, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

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